Some spell ideas off the top of my head:

Transmute Artifact

Like enchant item, but rather than give +dam or +hr permanately, this
spell gives a weapon a special bonus attack(1d12 fire/ice etc) for 10
tics. Spell is castable once every 30 minutes.

Mass Teleport

Similar to druids wind spell except: It safely teleports every group
member to any town or designated "gate"/area(clan stronghold?) -
It takes 1tic to complete casting with "full concentration"(mage can't
do anything else for 60seconds)

Demon Summoning

Summons a demon that attacks anyone(including groupmates) but the
caster. Lasts 5 tics.
-- And/Or --
Remove Monster Summoning and create a similar spell with new mobs that
can be summoned depending on your Robe.
Black - Demon Summoning
Red - Monster Summoning
White - Conjure Elemental II

Warp Creature

Remove 15% of the casters health. Add +3dam to target. 3dam lasts 5
tics. -15% health lasts 10 tics. Castable every 5-10 tics.
--Or-- Remove 8% of targets health instead of 15% of casters.
A 285 hp mage casting this would lose 43hp on his person.
Or a 650 hp warrior targetted by this spell would lose 52hp.
Spell only works if grouped with the caster.

Immolation

Does normal damage over 3 rounds(like 60) and set's the
target's resist fire to +10 or +20 for those 3 rounds.

Slow

Removes the benefits of haste on a target if that target
is affected by haste for 3 rounds.

Disperse Magic

Like dispel magic. But it dispels 2-3 spell effects instead of 1.

Mind Storm

Remove Feeblemind/Confusion as available spells and put this in it's place. This spell has a % chance to Feeble and/or Confuse target. -Or- Don't remove Feeble/Confusion and make this an area effect spell, targets must make a save vs feeble and confusion.

Skills --

Arcane Cognizance
When a mage spell is cast from a mob that the mage doesn't have in his spellbook(like stun or prismatic spray), there's a % chance he can 'recognize' the incantation and cast that spell once, without having to memorize it, in the next 10-20 tics. The higher the skill, the higher % chance and the higher circle spell that can be captured. The skill can be usable every 20 tics.

Currently, there is a number of spells that negate the effects of hide and invisibility (glitterdust, faerie fire). In other words, the character remains invisible (has a spell or an auto-invis item on), but the other characters may attack it even if they don't see invis.

I'd like to have the same kind of negation functionality for other beneficial effects:
- negate fly (the character falls and loses a lot of v's for moving even if affected by fly);
- negate waterbreath;
- negate infravision, negate nightvision;
- negate detect_invisible;
- negate sense life, negate awareness;
- negate detect good, negate detect evil;
- negate detect magic, negate detect scry;
and so on.

Along the same lines, other things may be negated too:
- ? negate scouting ? (From what I remember, one of the zones by Aristox once had an item with a 'nearsightedness' special on it that prevented scanning, and the special was made to look like an Oflag. It may be interesting to bring that back and perhaps block the scouting skill too);
- negate spellcasting (a weak version of silence - it only prevents the spellcaster from casting spells that belong to a certain area, e.g. negate_healing_sphere or negate_alteration).

All that may be separate spells or the varying effects of a single spell. The negation magic is most likely to fit the red robes (since they're the masters of tricks, illusions and, generally speaking, any magic that controls other magic) or, perhaps, the renegades. It would be also rather nice to have the same list of negation effects available as OFLAGS/MFLAGS (so that the creators could use them in specials

Certainly, the names above just describe what the spells do, you may come up with your own fancy names for them.

Flame on,
Boris

P.S. BTW, the 'slow' spell suggested in the previous post is a possible implementation of the negate_haste template.

Cantrips: a set of weak but very simple spells that require no memorization beforehand to cast. Basically a way for mages (and maybe druids/clerics) to contribute to a group's efficiency without incurring high mem-time, as well as after they have exhausted their mem. Cantrips may be damage spells, weak & very brief debuffs or buffs, or healing/restorative spells (if extended to clerics & druids).

Implementation-wise they would be similar to instincts with re-use timers measured in rounds, but would still disable melee for the following round the way spells do. Efficacy of these spells would be determined by the caster's level, by way of increasing the damage/buff/healing amount linearly with level or by reducing the re-use timer at higher levels, or both. An initial set of cantrips would be available at level 1 in all guilds (to aid newbie mages casting magic missiles that deal a whopping 2 damage). Better and stronger (but significantly longer re-use timer) cantrips could be learned from books or from trainer mobs by mages who have sufficient experience.

Cantrips could appear in a new "Circle 0" within the spellbook (placing all of them there regardless of whether they were available to level 1 chars or came from a book and required the caster to be level 27), or interspersed throughout the spellbook in circles appropriate for the experience required to learn them (denoted with a Cantrip symbol in the spell description so users would know they do not require memorization), or as a list under a new "Cantrips" command the way instincts are.

New "Deluge Barrier" spell or "Twisted Flow" skill: Designed to protect mages from area-effect spells and abilities in high-level encounters. Implemented as a spell, it would create a physical barrier around the mage with a set amount of hit-points; the barrier would then absorb 25 to 33% of incoming AOE spell/breath/special damage (applied before resists) until the barrier runs out of hp and subsequently collapses. Implemented as a skill it would offer persistent, passive protection from area damage. From an RP point of view, unlike evade where the character dodges the damage, this skill would allow a mage who has become especially attuned to magical forces in the world to slightly skew the trajectory of imprecise (i.e. not target-specific), inundative flows of energy to glance by the mage harmlessly. Achieving "Superb" in this skill would deflect 0 to 30% (full range of random chance between failure and full success) of the incoming damage, with no limit to how much damage can be blocked or how often it can be used. The other major difference between implementing it as either a spell or skill is that a skill cannot be scribed or brewed and handed off to a tank.

Glad to see this idea finally coming into fruition, it's something that's been discussed during several failed attempts at starting a Conclave every couple of wipes.

Needless to say, I think that there are a few things that need to be set in stone about Renegade mages. If they're given access to all three 'spheres' of magic, I think the downside should be a reduction in spell damage. Nothing drastic, but say casting at an effective caster level a few levels lower then they actually are to show they've lacked the refining skills that would've been available freely with the Conclave.

I think also would be that the primary mage guildmasters in each city should deny usage as relocate anchors much akin to recent pkilling. As most guildmasters would be Conclave members it goes without saying that they'd frown on the presence of renegades and deny them usage to their services. To offset this, certain wizards as existing in the darker cities would offer their services at a fee, much like Delphon.

White Robes should primarily have access to the stronger utility spells. I'm talking about something similair to that which druids can offer now. Mass invisibility, mass fly, a group teleport spell and the like are just a few ideas that should be in their realm. That's not to say they wouldn't have offensive ability, on the contrary they should have a good bit of firepower towards their middle to high circles. If anything, this should be the class that has identify & legend lore at their disposal.

Red Robes would and should have access to both colors spells, at the cost of decreased effectiveness as the Renegade does, and of course failure to achieve the pentacles or class favorites of the other two robes. Their benefit of course will be the larger list of spells they have access to, and perhaps the ability to use magical items that're black_robe or white_robe only.

Black Robes would naturally be the choice for destruction. Lower level area effect spells, perhaps some light necromancer thrown in and a direct damage spells that're non-elemental such as the various cause wound spells. The throw back would be that they'd be lacking the wider range of utility spells, albeit not forfeiting them altogether. An increase in damage dice to the lower level Universal spells should be considered, while their class spells would be unaugmented.

Each cities guildmaster should be given an alignment. To those of the same alignment comes training and new spells. To those of the opposing alignment, the training should come at a marginal cost based on spell level.

There's been alot of ideas tossed around over the years by certain prominent mages, some of which are currently on your staff already. But if you'd like some expounding on these ideas, I'd be glad to provide them.
Walking the Dark Path Alone

Walking the Dark Path Alone

Is this an opportunity to divide and limit some of the power of mages and force players to make a choice on end-game spells? Like maybe only white robes get pws and only black robes get tent? Interesting...I'll have to mull this over some.

Aristox could answer this alot better than I, but I would put money on that the overall change wasn't designed to nerf mages, but to add additional versatility and spells.

Walking the Dark Path Alone

The intent of this change is multi-purpose.

First, I wanted to bring the class more into line with Dragonlance. The mage class plays a huge role in the books and is basically nothing like that in game. That is a problem from an overall concept standpoint for the game, not just the class.

Second, Mages are in this rut where with the right spells they are ultra powerful, without them they are kind of blah. This redesign allows the ultra powerful spells to be split amongst the robes and at the same time lets more spells be added to buff up the mid to lower tier players some. A level 30 Black Robe will all the spells will probably end up slightly less powerful than a current level 30 Mage with all the spells, but by the same token a level 30 Black Robe with 80% of the spells will be more powerful than a current level 30 Mage with 80% of the spells.

Third, Damage output. The problem with the memming system for spell casters is that eventually they run out of things to cast, because their memory is empty. This makes melee (and archery) damaging classes more useful in rolling over zones because they never run out of melee (arrows do run out, but you just buy a lot before a zone and are fine). The addition of 'mental acuity' was aimed at alleviating some of this damage over time discrepancy. The redesign will take this to a new level, providing ways for robed mages to sustain damage from fight to fight without major mem times. How this will be accomplished is still somewhat up in the air, but it is a major part of the redesign.

Fourth, Other. The defensive spells and abilities of the class could use expansion, but I dont think every mage should defend themself the same way. So the robes will rely on different formats of defense. Utility can be expanded so each robe can have a whole new set of tricks up there sleeve to assist themselves and their group. New and whacky spell ideas to punch up the fun of the game.

Fifth, Renegades. This class is currently the wild card, I have a lot of very strange ideas for how to handle them. The game needs more crazy and I plan on putting in the crazy with renegades.

I was really hoping for a larger response, but thanks to the few of you that did respond. Keep the ideas coming, I will be starting design work early next wipe, so you might start seeing your ideas in game in a couple months.

First off, one of the things I would shy away from with the renegade subclass is to make them overall more powerful than the other three in terms of damage. As we've seen, the larger clans have always been more mobile than the other clans or individuals, and that factor alone would greatly offset any potential in-city, or guildmaster type reactions to the robeless status.

As for the spells these renegades would learn, overall I believe the zone mobiles hold the key. I for one have noted certain mage-mobs have been of the renegade variety, some even extolling that fact (Terzak comes to mind..). I would set up a second Conclave, and name it something along the lines of the Shadow Council. This place would contain copies of the zonemobs (Noom, Terzak, Balcombe, etc.) who would act as guildmasters. What would make it unique, would be that the spells they'd teach would be random, and learnable only once per level much akin to failing a book now.

When approaching these same mobiles in their respective zones and defeating them, I would create a command, a class command if you would called Abstraction. This ability would formally give the Renegade a random chance at learning a spell (or two on a high roll) of the circles offered by the same mob in the Council otherwise unlearned due to the randomness. This would highlight the chaotic and opportunistic side of the Renegade, showing the need to get magic at any cost, from any source.

Overall they should have available to them at most two robe colors available to them based on their alignment. Based on the alignment progression, this would be red/black, red/white. The number of spells available per robe should be more narrow due to their Renegade status, but overall greater flexibility would come from their flaunting of tradition.

Walking the Dark Path Alone

Firstly I think this looks like a great idea. I had a few ideas about some changes to mages myself, so here they are.

Firstly I think it would be cool if there were more area spells in the game. However I think the type of area spells that should be added would be more useful battle spells that do not do damage. For example something like a "Mindfog" spell, working along the same lines as cloudkill, however instead of doing damage it has chance to confuse, or simply prevent casting of all classes on a failed save. Mindshield would protect people and gust could disperse the cloud...

Another idea is "Wind storm". This spell would create strong winds surrounding the casters group. Unlike gust they would last for a longer period of time based in rounds, and they would basically have the same effect as gust with the added benefit of protecting the group from arrows. It would not be an arrow shield, but would instead simply cause arrows to fly off target, %chance for the archer to miss completely or hit his own group members, hit a groupmate of the target, or fire succesfully, 25% chance to each.

Another spell idea I had was "negate magic". This spell would basically be mass dispel on a single target. The difference from the dispel magic spell however would be that the target would receive a save. If the save is made there would be a 25% (subject to imm discretion of course) that the spell would backfire and dispel all of the casters effects. It may also be more practical that it dispels a random number of effects ie 1d6 or 1d10 etc etc depending on level of the caster.

In terms of mass teleport spell that some people suggested, I would prefer to see a "dimensional gate" spell. This would enable the mage to open a gate lasting 3-5 tics or so from certain points to certain points, most likely guildmaster to guildmaster, with occasional gate rooms added in to a few zones that are themed along the line of mages. These gate rooms within the zone would allow the mage to move to a guildmaster from within the zone and back and forth, but the mage would have to get to that room within the zone to create the gate. These gates would be accessible to anyone wishing to enter. There would probably be a limit as to how many gates can be created in the rooms, as the gates would require a physical structure to contain them. Possibly mages would be able to determine where the gate goes to by looking at it, but other classes would be unable to see this. The concept would require quite alot of tweaking but I think it could create some fun pk situations, as well as allowing groups to switch characters from within these zones more easily if group members were leaving or a different class was required.

In regards to specific existing spells going to particular robes I think power word stun and prismatic spray should be available to all mages. I also think the Test should be brought in at some point for mages, and I had some ideas. Basically it would become available from level 25 or so, and the higher the level of the mage the harder the test would be. Preferably there would be alot of different tests coded for all 3 robes, possibly some tests would be the same but depending on your robe a different approach is required, so its not just a straightforward kill all the mobs test. Upon completion of the test the mage would be able to learn a spell of his choice, obviously not the best spells in the game, but the choice would be wider depending on the level at which the mage takes and completes the test.

Anyway thats it for now, laters.

Give stun to good align mages, prism to neutral align mages, and tent to evil align mages. No joke.

Given the non-combatant, or at least alternative to violence seeking nature of white robed magic users, I'd agree for the most part to their having PWS exclusively. Problem being, as this is a much sought after spell for all classes, to say only one sub-class has access would severely limit character possibilities.

Walking the Dark Path Alone

Since renegade mages are shunned from the conclave they have much less guild masters which agree to teach them and when they do, they teach them just a few spells.
In order to learn more spells there will be a system in place.
After [circle * (60-mageLevel)] of seeing the spell being casted (for 9th circle and level 30: 9 * 60-30 = 270 times) there is \
1 - 0.[circle]% chance of learning that spell any time you see it being casted (for 1st circle it will be 1-0.1=0.9%, for 9th circle it will be 1-0.9=0.1%).
Of course you can always remove powerful spells from the list of spontaneous learning.
The formulas might include a skill, the higher the skill the less the times you need to see the spell and the higher the percentage to learn it.
The second way you can learn spells is from books of course.
Because renegades do not follow a certain order, their spells are not restricted and they can learn everything.
Order mages might have certain skills (or bonus to them) that they learn in the academy that renegades do not.

Maybe have the guards in the mage guilds agrro renegade mages too.
Have them delay for 10-15 seconds to avoid abuse.

Regarding the "Test": When you choose to be an ordered mage (level 6 or 10?) you can enter a zonelet (like Xak) which is around 3 rooms in size with a random mob or two of similar strength and the opposite alignment of the mage.
Have 20 mobs for each align and random between them for each initiate. You deposit your eq at the begining and collect it at the end, with a vault-like behaviour. A death in the Test is a normal death (you do not get deleted) and you can collect your eq when you come back.
Renegades, of course, do not take the test.

Yair

-Wiggle-

Spell suggestions for the three different Mages. 1st through 3rd circles I'd suggest leaving mostly the same minus the weaker area spells (color spray, etc). Some of these spells might be a bit out there, but I am trying to keep possible abuse and coding issues in mind on the "weirder" ones. The main goal I've shot for is giving mages the ability to mem more overall damage spells to give them more staying power. I also tried to insert some diversity into the three different types of mages (black robes would rely on lifetap and charmies instead of hold spells for soloing, for example).

----------------------
White Robe Spell List:

1:
-Blur
-Detect Magic
-Infravision
-Light
-Magic Missile
-Shield
-Sleep Awareness

2:
-Detect Invisibility
-Continual Light
-Invisibility
-Shocking Grasp
-Silence
-Strength
-Sleep

3:
-Dispel Magic
-Energy Volley (Area magic missile?)
-Fireball
-Fly
-Lightning Bolt
-Water Breath
-Web

4:
-Burning Hands (Damage increased to match acid blast)
-Floating Disk
-Haste
-Hold Person (Pre-duration nerf)
-Improved Invisibility
-Rot
-Teleport

5:
-Calm
-Enchant Item
-Hold Monster (Pre-duration nerf)
-Force Bolt
-Locate Object

6:
-Anti-magic Shell
-Conjure Elemental
-Mirror Image
-Regeneration (Not a clue, haven't seen what this does exactly yet)
-Relocate

7:
-Cone of Cold
-Confusion
-Detect Scry
-Mass Invisibility
-Mental Acuity
-Power Word Blind (Sunray without damage? Shorter duration than blindness?)

8:
-Conjure Greater Elemental (Similar usefulness as Monster Summoning)
-Contingency (Mass non-glowing recall for all of the mage's group members, but not the mage)
-Globe of Invulnerability
-Knock (Chance to unlock a pickable door/container)

9:
-Mind Surge (Reduces memorization time to 1 tic; either inflicts a haste-type flag, can only be used rarely, or both)
-Power Word Stun
-Shockwave (Area force bolt or less damage and a short stun or bash/sit component)

--------------------
Red Robe Spell List:

1:
-Blur
-Detect Magic
-Infravision
-Light
-Magic Missile
-Shield
-Sleep Awareness

2:
-Detect Invisibility
-Continual Light
-Invisibility
-Shocking Grasp
-Silence
-Strength
-Sleep

3:
-Dispel Magic
-Color Spray
-Fireball
-Fly
-Lightning Bolt
-Water Breath
-Web

4:
-Burning Hands (Damage increased to match acid blast)
-Dispel Magic
-Floating Disk
-Haste
-Improved Invisibility
-Rot
-Teleport

5:
-Calm
-Enchant Item
-Locate Object
-Hold Person (Pre-duration nerf usefulness)
-Wildstrike (Single target prism)

6:
-Anti-magic Shell
-Conjure Elemental
-Feeblemind
-Knock (Chance to unlock a pickable door/container)
-Relocate

7:
-Detect Scry
-Fumble (Disarms the victim's weapon(s) and shield to inventory for a short duration if successful)
-Mental Acuity
-Mirror Image
-Scorch (High direct damage fire spell)
-Shadow Step (Relocate 1d3 rooms in a chosen direction, limited by doors/walls)

8:
-Mind Surge (Reduces memorization time to 1 tic; either inflicts a haste-type flag, can only be used rarely, or both)
-Monster Summoning
-Prismatic Spray (Minimum Damage increased slightly?)
-Translocate (Teleport Other/Group?)

9:
-Arm of Lunitari (Creates a neutral-mage-only no-drop lightweight 2handed staff with major +hitroll and considerable damage dice that grants an extra attack or spec when wielded [not haste])
-Power Word Blind (Sunray without damage? Shorter duration than blindness?)
-Power Word Rend (High level massive direct physical damage spell)

----------------------
Black Robe Spell List:

1:
-Blur
-Detect Magic
-Infravision
-Light
-Magic Missile
-Shield
-Sleep Awareness

2:
-Detect Invisibility
-Continual Light
-Invisibility
-Shocking Grasp
-Silence
-Strength
-Sleep

3:
-Dispel Magic
-Fireball
-Flash Freeze (Area cold damage)
-Fly
-Lightning Bolt
-Water Breath
-Web

4:
-Acid Blast
-Charm Person (More useful than it is now?)
-Floating Disk
-Haste
-Improved Invisibility
-Rot
-Teleport

5:
-Animate Dead
-Calm
-Charm Monster (More useful than it is now?)
-Enchant Item
-Life Tap (More potent Soul Leech type life stealing spell;maybe only heal a %age of damage done)
-Locate Object

6:
-Anti-magic Shell
-Conjure Elemental
-Feeblemind
-Fireshield (Damage increased)
-Relocate
-Scorch (High direct damage fire spell)

7:
-Black Mantle (Halves healing received for a duration)
-Cloudkill
-Detect Scry
-Mental Acuity
-Obscure (Self-only Improved Invis that also grants autosneak and autohide like equip)
-Shadow Step (Relocate 1d3 rooms in a chosen direction, limited by doors/walls)

8:
-Incendiary Cloud (Damage-over-time area spell, similar to insect swarm)
-Knock (Chance to unlock a pickable door/container)
-Nightvision (Dare to give them darkness too?)
-Power Word Rend (High level massive direct physical damage spell)

9:
-Energy Drain (More effects/usefulness against high level mobs)
-Malevolent Tentacles (Increased damage somewhat?)
-Mind Surge (Reduces memorization time to 1 tic; either inflicts a haste-type flag, can only be used rarely, or both)
------------

-White Robe Pros:
Contingency
Efficient Hold Spells
Most defensive spells - AMS, Mirror, Globe
Most area crowd control spells

-White Robe Cons:
Fewest high damage area spells
Fewest direct damage spells

-Red Robe Pros:
Arm of Lunitari
Clairvoyance
Combination damage/disabling spells (CSpray, Wildstrike, Prism)
Enchant Item less restricted
Fumble Spell
Translocate

-Red Robe Cons:
Weaker defenses than White Robes - AMS, Mirror, Shadow Step
No Lifetap Spell
Neutral Alignment?

-Black Robe Pros:
Animate Dead
Black Mantle
Lifetap Spell
Most Raw Damage Spells
Nightvision

-Black Robe Cons:
Restricted to Web only for Hold-type spells
Weakest defensive spells - AMS, Obscure, Shadow Step

I would suggest giving mages the ability to solo-load or quest their 5th circle damage spells and (maybe) the 3rd circle area spells at a reasonable level (~15-20) or just have them be guild-learned. This would greatly improve their fun and usefulness at mid and mid-high level without forcing abuse of high level alts or clans (like now) or pure dumb luck (Wyne's rare force bolt load in the past). Even right now if every single mage had force bolt and color spray from guild they wouldn't be unbalanced or overpowered by any means. I would go so far as to suggest a quest line that rewarded teleport, force bolt, and (maybe) color spray equivalents to mid-level mages so that it actually feels like you're playing a mage instead of a gimped druid.

Some interesting ideas in here, some of which I'd like to see in the game in some form or another... but one thing that strikes me as I read this is the power of red robes... imagine a fully spelled red robe, puffing to an enemy group, casting power word blind a few times (would probably prevent a considerable few of the enemy recalling), followed by spamming prism (would probably also prevent a few more from recalling), followed by spamming power word rend, followed by a recall, a mind surge, and then next tick the red robe puffs back and does it all over again... not to mention the prep they could get (ams/mirror etc etc)... I like the idea of mind surge, but reducing it to 1 tic seems kinda powerful. A mage with spells in all circles will probably use up all of them (getting up to 30 tics of mem time depending on their moon), cast mind surge, and then repeat the whole process. Maybe just reduce it by half?

I also like the idea of obscure and knock... why is it only thieves that can pick locks? Surely a powerful and intelligent mage would be able to magically manipulate the pins inside a lock to open it?

Yes, but you're also presuming the worst on three hypothetical spells/situations. We already know mage bombing was an issue, and sheaf's were implemented to prevent that. We're always going to have a few amazingly strong mages each wipe. Low player population, attrition, difficulty, and jealousy will always keep /that/ number down.

Walking the Dark Path Alone

This is kinda long, might wanna get yourself a sammich or something and settle in for a read.

Spells:

Chromatic Orb: A chaotic swirl of energy compressed into a fist-sized ball and launched at a hapless foe.
Damage: level + 4D5
Extra: 66% chance to inflict (if victim fails a save) one of the following: weaken, ray of enfeeble, fear, 3-round blindness, or a 1-round hold monster. Availability of effects may depend on caster level, and may not be equally weighted when chosen.

Upon casting, first the damage would be calculated (with no save applied to halve it), then a roll would be made to decide if an effect will be added. If so, the victim will then roll a save vs spell to try and negate the effect.

Soul Lance: An incredibly powerful beam of arcane energy that passes straight through the target.
Damage: 20 + (level/2)D6
Extra: 50% chance of passing through the target and hitting a second enemy (if one is in the room) for full damage. Maybe a low (10%) chance of hitting a third enemy as well, again for full damage. Save vs spell for half damage applies in all cases.

Plane Slice: The caster opens a gate into an elemental plane, connecting the two dimensions briefly.
Details: The elemental plane chosen -- fire, water (cold damage/resist), air (lightning damage/resist), earth (physical damage/resist) -- could be random, or specified in an argument. Duration would be caster_level/2 rounds, and during that time the following would occur:
-all creatures in the room would have a 30% chance of taking light to moderate damage associated with the plane's elemental type every round
-all creatures in the room have their resistance associated with the plane's element decreased by 25% (removing damage immunity if applicable)
-NPC elementals may spawn, and randomly ally themselves with or against the caster
-If the plane of air is chosen, the druid spells "clear skies," "storm call," "call lightning," "lightning storm," and "tornado" become castable regardless of the room's location.
-If the plane of water is chosen, lightning bolt becomes area effect just as it does underwater.
-If the plane of earth is chosen, the druid spell "earthquake" becomes castable regardless of the room's location.
-Regardless of which plane is chosen, the druid spell "elemental fist" becomes a strong version.
-When the spell ends, all effects and spawned mobs are removed
-If a second Plane Slice is cast when one is already in effect, the current spell is ended as above without creating a new one.
All in all, hopefully a nifty spell to throw some insanity into the game.

Elemental Weakness: Increases the victim's vulnerability to a particular type of damage.
Details: opposite of druid's resist spell, with the same arguments available. Removes immunity if applicable. Cannot lower resistance below zero. A save vs spell is possible: if failed the victim's resistance is cut by 25%, if successful the victim's resistance is cut by 10%. Once the spell is applied (full strength or not) it cannot be reapplied until after it wears off or dispelled. In other words, you're guaranteed to lower an enemy's resistance with a single cast, but if it makes its save you cannot re-cast to get the 25% cut. You can re-cast the spell successfully for another elemental type however.

Dire Rune: Carves an eldritch rune into the victim's flesh, ready to react when fed magical energy!
Damage: [(level)/6]D3
Details: The rune remains on the victim for level/6 rounds. During this time, if any type of damage spell is received (not blocked by a mirror image or sphere), the rune sears the flesh of the victim for the damage listed. This does not consume the rune; it remains on the victim until the duration ends, is dispelled, or the victim is cured (via heal or restoration most probably). A group with multiple casters could flare the rune several times per round for up to 5 rounds, possibly resulting in a lot of extra damage (maybe causing such groups to become more common?). Something special may have to be done when magic missile is cast on an afflicted victim so the rune only reacts once or for proportionately less damage per missile.

Soul Channel: Drains the lifeforce from an enemy and imbues it within the caster.
Damage/healing: 1 + [level/10]D3 (per round)
Duration: level/5
The amount of damage done is the same amount healed in the caster. Each round the victim gets to make a save, causing half damage/healing to be done. NPP protects fully against this spell.

Retaliatory Shield: An offensive shielding spell to revenge magical attacks.
Damage: 5 + [(level)/6]D3
Duration: level/5 hours
Details: When a character affected by this buff is damaged by magical means (direct or AOE) a bolt of energy is released in retaliation, inflicting light damage against the attacker. This spell, like fireshield, does nothing to limit the damage that activates it.

Duplicate: Creates an illusory image around the target.
Details: Same as Mirror Image except it only creates a single image and it can be cast on anyone, allowing white robes to defend their tank.

Mindclear: Restores the target's state of mind to it's original strength.
Details: Removes one feeblemind, confusion, avenging faith (head) or disorientation effect.

Emotional Balance: The target becomes harder to provoke or frighten.
Details: Bonus to saves vs. fear and taunt.

Bounce: The target of this spell will spring back to his feet more easily.
Details: Next time the target is bashed he will only suffer one round of lag, but will be forced to stand immediately thereafter.

Dweomercraft: Allows the caster to create powerful items from the body of a mystical creature, though such an impromptu enchantment will unravel quickly.
Details: Requires the fresh corpse of a magical creature such as a fairy or dragon, and perhaps other extremely powerful enemies (like holy priests and other end-mobs), upon which the spell is cast. An item (or maybe even two in some cases) is then created with magical abilities reflecting the attributes of the dead creature (+stats, +hp, maybe even npp on a lucky roll from the right corpse -- creating items from the flesh of humanoids will necessarily make them anti-good). These items will have decay timers somewhere in the 60-minute range, allowing them to help with running zones but not serve as a permanent set of equipment.

Swiftswim: This spell allows characters to move more quickly underwater, consuming fewer movement points.
Details: Group-effect, similar to plantwalk but works in water.

Obscure: This spell attempts to hide the presence of a character or item from scrying spells.
Details: Makes an item harder to locate, makes a char harder to clair, makes a char's alignment harder to discern via detect good/evil or know alignment spell, and relocate will have trouble anchoring to the character.

Skills:

Penetrate: A mage skilled in this will find himself able to more easily bypass enemy protections with his spells.
Details: Passive, gives the mage a slightly higher chance of hitting the intended target instead of an image/sphere/% reflection with a direct damage spell; magic missile has a chance to penetrate shield; holds, etc have a chance to bypass AMS; and exceptionally skilled mages will discover that their spells are harder to resist (bonus to a spell's DC).

Chained Bolt: A caster proficient in this skill will be able to aim his spells to hit multiple targets.
Details: Passive skill, allows projectile spells to chain to other targets for damage dependant on skill level and the spell cast. Acid Blast would have a generally high chance of sloshing all over the caster's enemies for light damage. Lightning Bolt would have a mediocre chance of leaping to a second or third target for about 30% damage. Force Bolt would have a low chance to ricochet for good (50%) damage once. Individual Magic Missiles may also have a low chance to richochet once for full damage each.

Just like the Soul Lance spell described above, implementation should probably be done carefully so the chained attacks don't engage passive observers (mobs or players), which would serve as a bigger nerf than a buff. Maybe there's already an easy way to check for "real" enemies in the room, but if not a condition like [(caster is in NPC's hate list) OR ((NPC is aggressive) AND (NPC can see caster))] might work and still be relatively simple.

Magnetic Defense: A mage proficient in this skill is able to extend his protections in minor ways to his groupmates.
Details: Whenever the caster is affected by a defensive spell this skill will passively attempt to absorb any appropriate spell cast on an ally. A mage affected by shield could pull magic missiles cast on an ally towards himself, a mage with spheres could pull part of any direct damage spell away to absorb a fraction of the damage and destroy a sphere, a mage with AMS could reduce the duration of a hold cast on an ally by 1 round, etc, etc.

Resilient Mind: Through the use of this skill an attempt can be made to shake off the effects of a mind-affecting spell.
Details: Active defense skill, must be used outside of battle prior to having a mind-affecting spell cast at oneself. If the character fails his initial save vs. the spell, this ability allows him/her to re-roll his save at a penalty to try and prevent the spell from affecting his mind. This removes the Resilient Mind effect whether the second roll is succesful or not. If the character makes his initial save the buff remains on the character until the duration runs out (~3 tics) or until another mind-affecting spell is cast and he fails the initial save. This ability can be used on others, and it would have an 8-12 hour reuse timer.

Roughly speaking, skill level to reroll penalty could be:
awful - v.poor = reroll save at +5 penalty
poor - average = reroll save at +4 penalty
fair - v. good = reroll save at +3 penalty
excellent - superb = reroll save at +2 penalty
superior = reroll save at +1 penalty

Eldritch Sense: A mage proficient in this skill is able to tune in to subtle variations in the flow of magic around him to aid in a variety of ways.
Details: Passive utility buff. Casting Locate Object with a successful skill-check returns more objects at longer range; if an ally misses a track while tracking, a magical arrow may appear to point the proper direction; better chance of seeing who's summoning/clairing; enchant has a higher minimum effect; better chance to avoid fooming an item being mended/recharged; teleport may work as relocate; other small things like that.

Recognition: Allows a mage to instantly recognize a spell he's trying to memorize when someone else in the room casts it.
Details: Passive skill, gives the mage a small chance to instantly rememorize a single spell in his mem list when a mob or player in the room casts the same spell.

Arcane Thievery: Allows a renegade mage to instantly memorize a spell possibly unknown to him when someone else in the room casts it.
Details: Passive skill, same as Recognition, but with the improvement of being able to capture and memorize a spell the mage doesn't know if he has a free slot (empty or in exchange for some other spell of the same circle being memmed) for it available. Unknown spells will only stay in the spellbook for up to 4 hours, after which they will simply disappear from the caster's memory.

Wild Spell: Allows a renegade mage to twist a spell as he casts it, with unpredictable effects.
Details: Active skill, must be used directly before casting (but causes no lag, has 9 round re-use timer). Four basic outcomes are possible, each split into three further groups depending on whether the spell was offensive, defensive, or utility. Effects are, of course, extremely random and a very large pool of possibilities will need to be made along with probably several new status effects and spells coded.
1) Complete Success: offensive spells get buffed very nicely, possibly becoming area-effect, having the damage increased greatly, and/or having good debuffs attached to the spell. Defensive spells also receive a strong buff, possibly becoming group-effect or imm-level versions of the spell, or having additional bonuses (like +stats, hp, etc) attached to it. Utility spells will work better but probably not be as spectacular; locate will go farther and return more objects, teleport may work as relocate, enchant may give +4 hitroll (but still only 3 dam), and other spells will need to be taken case by case.
2) Moderate Success: offensive spells get buffed slightly, possibly with a small bonus to damage, weak debuff attached, or converted into a wholly different (but of equivalent strength) spell, or teleporting the enemy into a nearby room (within, say 1D4 steps). Defensive spells may receive minor additional bonuses, or be swapped for a wholly different (but again of roughly equivalent strength) spell. Utility spells will work as normally with an additional effect (like a weak buff or casting floating disc automatically).
3) Moderate Failure: offensive spells get weakened, possibly doing less damage, or attaching a buffing or restorative effect to aid the enemy, or having the spell backfire for moderate damage to the caster, or calming the battle with instant aggro towards the caster from all enemies. Defensive spells become debuffs or also may damage the caster. Utility spells will fail and have mild negative consequences, such as summoning an aggressive monster or randomly teleporting the mage within the current zone, locate specifically may frag the item(s) being located.
4) Utter Failure: Offensive spells are buffed considerably similar to the complete success case, but are targeted at the caster and his group rather than the enemy, with a strong potential for spoiling the fight or just flat out killing the caster or other groupmates. Defensive spells also explode in the caster's face and have roughly the same effect. Utility spells will fail and have potentially dire consequences, such as fragging a substantial amount of the caster's equip or teleporting him randomly to anywhere in Krynn with 5 rounds of lag.

Beyond skill level, failure or success will be partly random and partly determined by the spell it's being used on. Awful skill level on a magic missile spell may have a 50% chance of moderate success, but awful skill on PWS would have 100% chance of utter failure. Attempting to use this skill on a spell the mage doesn't actually know (but can cast because of Arcane Thievery) will almost always result in Utter Failure. Generally speaking, using the skill on an appropriate spell should result in a majority (~50%) of moderate success scenarios (hence the reuse timer), but still have a good chance (~40%) of moderate failure (hence the reuse timer is short). Utter failure should be very rare or impossible outside of inappropriate use (otherwise no one would ever risk using it and the skill would be worthless). Complete Success would also be rare (and make up the remaining ~10%).

I figure the skills would break down so each robe has two primary skills that they excel at beyond the others in proficiency, and each also has one or more secondary skills that they are about half as good at.
Black Robe: Penetrate (primary), Chained Bolt (primary), Recognition (secondary)
White Robe: Magnetic Defense (primary), Resilient Mind (primary), Recognition (secondary)
Red Robe: Eldritch Sense (primary), Recognition (primary), Chained bolt (secondary), Resilient Mind (secondary)
Renegade: Arcane Thievery (primary), Wild Spell (primary), Chained Bolt (secondary), Resilient Mind (secondary)

Renegades have access to the cross-robe skills (except Recognition, which they get a better version of) but would probably be even worse at them than Red robes so they can be considered tertiary skills. Black and White robes receive one less skill than Red robes and Renegades, but their primaries are more powerful (or at least without a chance to backfire) in battle which should make up for it.

I think is an incredible idea to modify mages towards Dragonlance style. (Note that i didnt say make them more powerful).

All this ideas are great and many of them would be great to see in game, obviously would be also a great discussion about balancing them.

One thing that is a key here is to look at every idea from mage's power and knowledge basis. For example, IMHO theres no chance for a mage to learn a spell just seeing it, except for an exceptional high skilled, beyond mortal realm, mage (like Raistlin learning and modifying! a spell casted by Fistandantilus). A different thing is that through a continuos study, test and practice a mage learn and dominate a spell (We must remember here that every time a mage gain a new spell lvl is a long process of patience and self control among other things that is reflected in the leveling(char no spell) process).

Based on that last argument i think that we need to think about the 3 robes (and renegades) through the prism of their knowledge. In this way we need to think what a robed mage will gain (and what will he sacrifice) to choose such a path (or not choosing one at all), from this perspective a Red robed mage is not a combination of the other 2, is a path by itself. Clearly th first thing that comes to my mind is power, over all, mages loves power (independant how they use them for good, self or evil), so a robed mage should gain more powerful spells in their area of study but less in number, and on the other hand, a renegade should be able to cast a major number of spells of a major variety, but less in power.

Another thing that comes to my mind is the lack of no-weapon skills that mages actually have today (bandage, sribe and brew), and the number of weapons skills (4) they have, we must to rememmber that the gods allowed Magus to use just a dagger as a backup in battle when he got out of spells, so this and obvious use of staves should redeuce weaps for a mage to shortblades (should be only daggers) and bludgeons (just staves, not hammers and the like).

And let me go deep in no-weapon skills. Which skills should a mage have? certainly not weaponsmithing or sneak, but magic related skills, and ill like to introduce here the concept of meta-magic skills used in D&D v3 ("feats").

- Empower spell: you can improve a spell (like boost effect) automatically, but using a high lvl slot. (example: an empowered magic missilell use a 3th lvl slot, an empowered force bolt a 7th lvl, and a empowered confusion a 9th lvl slot). There are several ways to empower a spell, simple is boost, but it could be extended in duration, in penetration or be maximazed, every kind with different "lvl step" cost.

- Silent spell: you can cast a spell with no sound, this spell should be memorized in a high lvl slot too.

- Still spell: you can cast a spell withouth gestures.

This feats will allow a mage with no top spells to use their slots with lower lvl spells too, increasing the number of offensive spells per fight that a mage could be able to cast. Also it would make a mage more "customizable" group member. As boost just a group of spells should be "meta-magiced".

Sariel utters some strange words.
Sariel slowly fades out of sight.

Not sure about the silent/still spell skills; doesn't it give mages too easy an escape against other casters in PK?

I do, however, really like the idea of allowing mages to use their (potentially empty) high circles to cast lower-circle spells. I am by no means an experienced mage player, but I think the ability to cast certain lower-circle spells using a higher-circle slot (even with NO added bonus) would be great.

The basic theme that I remember distinguishing the three different robes:

White robes -- achieved power through hard work and had a more stable grasp on their power. Their path to power is slow and steady.

Black robes -- the quick fix path to power. They sacrifice themselves and others to achieve the power they want.

Red robes -- a mixture / balance between the two.

Keeping that in mind, it would be interesting to put in place a variant of the faith system used for Paladins in place for White robes. Perhaps instead of reaching a pinnacle of faith to maximize skill and spell effects, white robes could be slightly (and temporarily) penalized for killing "too many" good align mobs. They would also receive a slight temporary bonus for behaving good (killing only evil mobs) for a period of time. The idea of this system isn't to affect the character as much as the paladin faith system does, but provide some sort of incentive to "behaving correctly."

Black robes should be able to achieve a quick path to power through self sacrifice or sacrifice of others. Perhaps they could get increased spell effects at a substantial experience point cost or be able to cast unmemorized spells with an experience point loss. Another idea is for them to be able to cast spells at higher power or unmemorized but with substantial random hps loss from group members in the room during combat.

Thanks Aristox for the clarification about the vision for mages.

Given the huge role mages played in Dragonlance, the first task would seem to be carving out some sort of niche in Arctic instead of trying to carve out three or more niches.

First thing to do would to make some final fights "unthinkable" without a mage. Most high zones are unthinkable without a healer. Most final fights should be equally unthinkable without a mage. In the Dragonlance series, I recall that Ariakus (or was it Ariakan) was basically invulnerable but Raistlin surreptitioiusly removed the invulnerability so that Tanis could kill him. If that sort or "major debuff" were needed to complete DKO, Stone Bluff, Sylvanesti, FT, CT, Ancient, Sanction, etc... mages would become more important.

As for mages being either blah or ultra-powerful, this reminds me that Palin and Raistlin were rather blah until they got some uber-cool spells. Then again they were untrained by the guilds. I would like to think that not everyone less than elite in Arctic would be as lame as Palin was before he got the spellbook of Magius. What we need for that is spells better than forcebolt / hold monster but less powerful than prism/stun. Maybe buffing feeblemind or confusion or ray of enfeeblement and calm until people start using it regularly it would help.

As for damage output for the purposes of steamrolling, the books didn't have Raistlin doing much until critical moments. Steps to make mages more help in steamrolling (such as 6-7th circle versions of lightning bolt or magic missile which have a high chance of scoring a mental acuity, or 8-9 circle mass buffs like strength or blur or haste) while they seem simple would probably take move us away from the flavor of the Dragonlance books.

I guess in summary:
for big fights: major debuffs on a single target (black robe specialty?)
for damage output: acuity-friendly spells (red robe specialty?)
for group help: mass buffs (white robe specialty?)

Obiwan never told you.

WARNING: WORDS

Despoil, a spell for black robes to destroy an item for temporary maximum hp, spell power or some other significant bonus like memtime. The amount of max hp/spell power added would depend on how good, rare or valuable the item is. You're limited to one despoil affect at a time and maybe there should be a threshold so you can only despoil limited items. Would you despoil, say a diamond bracelet for +100 max hp before doing Cyan (lol a mage at Cyan), or destroy your clanmate's dragonlance to frag much harder in a clan fight? Or say you PK someone. Instead of telling your clan you got a +heal you can hoard it to despoil later, a dickish thing to do but fits with the black robe theme. Some mechanism would have to be added to further discourage destroying items right before you do the zone it's from.

Spell turning, gives yourself % reflect, white robes. It should make a cool echo if it reflects something. To add a twist, it reflects more if he isn't fighting or in the case of players isn't PK flagged (isn't the aggressor).

Buoyancy, a debuff for white robes, it's the opposite of hardbash. On a failed save it makes bash on something easier and more damaging, possibly more lagging, sitting bashes and kickbashes (are these still in?) more likely. Goes through AMS. I can think of few fights where you actually want a mage, this would help alleviate that. White robes should definitely be dangerous just not in a directly damaging way. In PK buoyancy might be useful if you land web, keep trying this spell until he fails save, monster summon, haste it and have it bash him down. Even if white robes had weaker frags and weaker summons (but still bash) you'd still have a good chance to kill someone.

Spell storage for lack of a better word, stores a spell to be released later with no delay, for red robes. If double prism sounds too powerful it might need to be limited by circles. Double web would be great in PK and double feeblemind great for zoning. These suggested spells are powerful but if stun/tent/prism are getting restricted these would compensate.

Minor/greater malison, lowers saves by -2/-4 and always lands. If this is too powerful a greatly improved chance of landing. For red robe maybe.

A spell that peeks at someone's memorized spells.

Something I always wanted to see is a fireball that doesn't suck. Fireball is practically iconic of wizards and it's a shame only a retard would use it in Arctic. I suggest "improved fireball" much like fireball but it never hits your group and deals better damage. And higher slot, 5th I dunno.

As for renegade mages something that sets them against Conclave mages and highlights their unpredictability would be interesting. What if the only way they can get book spells is by studying other people's sheafs and hence destroying them. Conversely you can allow Conclave mages to turn in renegade sheafs for a chance at a random spell. However renegades can't cast stolen spells as well and they can backfire much like wild magic, such as save or petrify, random beneficial effect, random bad thing happens (most likely), you spew out flowers and bees and other echoes that do nothing etc. A renegade might cast a helpful spell that he learned from a white robe's sheaf on the tank and accidentally petrify them both. A horrible thing should happen enough that even people not in the Conclave are uneasy around them. Everything they have stolen would be lost when they die and maybe many spells would not make it onto the sheaf, so while they can be a bookless mage for a while after dying, they can potentially have all three robes's spells all earned from PK. While this is not like renegade mages in the books, I think in the books most came up with their own spells and didn't actively seek confrontation with the Conclave, incentivizing robed and renegade mages to kill each other with the promise of new spells, would be an interesting way to go about it in Arctic.

After recently looking thru my old notes, I found one that may fit in this thread.

The idea was to make a skill that allows a mage to RECOGNIZE the spells being cast around him. I guess something like that is in works (spellcraft?), but currently it is posponed indefinitely. Well, here is the updated version of the idea:

The new passive skill allows a mage to recognize the spells being cast in his presence. In fact, the mages, being the masters of sorcery, may recognize with sufficient training any magical incantations (i.e. the spells of any class).

If the spell is recognized, the mage can build their concentration and gather the inner strength to withstand it's effects. In other words, if what you see is
<opponent> focuses harshly on you and utters some strange words,
(nothing is recognized)
than you resist the spell at, e.g., +1 saving spell;

If you see:
<opponent> focuses harshly on you and utters 'pare dudasabru',
(the incantation is recognized)
then you resist at -1 saving spell;

If you see:
<opponent> focuses harshly on you and utters 'hold person',
(the spell is recognized)
then you resist at -3 saving spell.

The actual saving_spell numbers will require some balancing (and they will be, most probably, skill and level dependent).

The actual outcome depends on the same things as now (whether the spell is a mage spell (the chance to recognize the other classes spells is lower), whether the victim is high enough to have a slot for it and whether the victim knows the spell - which is then automatically recognized) as well as on other obvious factors - the comparative level of the opponent and the victim and the level of the spellcraft skill.

For convenience, the skill may help also to recognize the spells cast by the allies of the mage, but the mage gets no enlights and skillfulls from it.

To make the skill useful in high-level zoning, where the elite clanned mages are likely to be protected by ams and not really need any further saving spell boost, it may become an aura:

The particularly skilled mages may be able not only to quickly recognize the spell being cast by an opponent, but also to instruct briefly their allies (group members) on how to withstand it with minimum suffering.

Technically speaking, when a mage is present in a group, ALL the group members get a chance to recognize the spells cast by the opponents, with the same saving spell effects. The chance of successful recognition is much lower than for the mage, though, and further depends on the class of the group-member (the non-casters having more difficulty in recognizing spells than the casters).

Robe-wise,
- the Red robes should have the highest chance of recognizing the spells, as well as the highest chance of successfully helping their groupmembers to do so;
- the White robes have a bonus to protection granted to their group-members;
- the Black robes have a bonus to protection granted to themselves.
- the renegades, lacking the proper education, cannot learn the skill.

As a side note, the spells cast when affected by 'boost' should be more difficult to recognize (and, subsequently, to withstand). That should make 'boost' much more powerful and valued. Perhaps, the renegades should get some enhancement to boost (make it wear off only after casting several spells?) to give them some advantage against the less experienced robed mages that don't have superb skill in recognition yet.

Flame on,
Boris

Equipment ideas
In 3rd edition D&D there's something called DC which makes your spells harder to save against, like the opposite of saves. In Arctic I know my gnome druid's spell save and para save at lvl 30 and know how to bring my chance of failing a save to exactly 5% no matter what. There's no difference between a lvl 6's silence and a rank 30's silence. This is somewhat boring and too predictable. What if you add a stat that affects this chance of landing a spell, and equipment that improves this stat, with perhaps mages getting more of it than others, so casters can improve something other than hps, memtime and slots. You won't necessarily have to stop at -1 spell save when going against casters, and might need more to get down to 5% failure, especially if the other person is packing +5 DC or something in gear.

Nice Ideas!

What if mages had the ability to react to spells as they are cast? In other words, if an opponent casts 'magic missile' there is a chance that you would inturrupt that casting with a 'shield' spell. Successfully blocking or dodging the spell.

This could be a passive skill that connects with the spell table so it wouldn't do you any good unless you had the counter spell memorized. Of course if you were bashed, silenced, or otherwise prevented from casting this woudn't work either.

This could work not only for offensive spells directed at the caster, but also defensive spells as well. Kind of a "oh no you don't" that would prevent specific spells from taking effect by counterspelling them.

Also, I'd like to see mages be able to join powers so to speak. You know, similar alignment mages can combine spells to really whip some ass. Create a spell or skill called mind link, where mages compare notes and join together in casting some really spectacular spells. This could be great for having more than one mage in the group!

Matt

One more idea: use the mage revamp to give some caring to the LORE skill.

At the moment, the skill is not only of little use, but also illogical: why would some wild barbarian be able to discern the properties of an item at will, while from all other classes, only an advanced mage could do that?

I propose that lore is divided between the classes in a more realistic way:

- Every class can discern only a subset of item intrinsics relevant to that class: a fighter can estimate the sharpness of a blade but not it's magical properties, while a magic user will discern an enchantment on the weapon but fail to notice it's balance (or even the fact that the artifact under investigation is a weapon). The general characteristics discernable by any class are name and material, as well as hp/mv/age affects.

Along the same lines, not everyone is able to recognize the item type of what lies in front of them (how would a fighter tell a staff from a wand? or a spellbook from a praerbook?).

- The barbarians can discern the damage dice (for weapons), apply (for armor) and ac/hr/damr/str/con/dex for any items that affect them. Certainly, they also recognize +skills, but for barbarian skills only. The recognized item types are WEAPON, ARMOR and WORN, everything else is Item type: not recognized.

- The mages can discern spells on scrolls, potions etc. They can also discern int/wis affects and certain spell-related oflags (fly, invisibility, detect invisibility, magic, detect magic). +mage skills and saving_spell/resist_magic are also discerned. The recognized item types are SCROLL, POTION, WAND, STAFF, COMPONENT, CATALYST, SPELL_BOOK.

- Other classes may get the lore skill too. A cleric, for example, may discern bless, curse, evil, detect_good, detect_evil, protection_from_good and similar oflags. A druid may discern sense_life, immune_heat/resist_heat, immune_cold/resist_cold... and so on.

To make the skill useful, the advanced lore specialists should be able to discern the affects that currently require a lore scroll to be discerned (hitr, damr, +stat, +skill etc.) In other words, an item may be lored without a lore scroll, but it requires a full mixed group of all the classes.

Even then, the people (especially elite clanned players) may be tempted to just spend 250 coins on a lore scroll, get all the information at once and forget all the trouble with the loring. To make the skill useful even for them, the highly advanced lore professionals (superb skill and a lot of +lore) may be able to discern what hides within the no_id items (the more +lore, the better the chance of success). Once again, every class may discern only some of the intormation, a full group is required to learn all the aspects of an item.

As the development of the idea, it may be interesting to limit the output of the normal identify scrolls and spell to just the information the caster can understand (though I doubt the players will like it). Perhaps, a soft limitation could be implemented (instead of 10 classes to get all the information, make it just 2: the fighter class gets all the melee properties of an item, while the caster learns all the enchantments and magical affects).

Finally, the players should be able to lore not only their inventory, but also the items on the ground (the way 'identify' spell works now), so that they are able to lore anti_* items or room objects.

Well, since this thread concentrates the ideas related to mage revamp, I'd like to include an old idea of mine here. Briefly,

Problems:
- The quills are currently absolutely useless;
- Scribe skill doesn't really depend on equipment (which is wrong, in Arctic eliteness must require elite eq);

Solution:
- Make the quills a required accessory for scribing;
- Set some +scribe affect on most quills (less on shop ones, more on those from zones);
- Reduce natural skill max for balance;
- Raise the component loads for balance and added fun.

Details:
http://mud.arctic.org/node/2077

I think that making specialized lore go through nolores is a great idea for making it useful. However, I have to disagree with the premise that that "elite clanned players" are more prone to using lore scrolls. Not that I count myself elite or anything, but I've found that I used a lot more lores and ID scrolls when I was a newbie (then nothing but lores when I wised up), and find myself using them much less now that I simply remember a lot of important items, and can often get the answer just by asking a clanny. That's probably just me, but I really doubt that there's a general trend of non-elite neutrals relying on barb lore/mage ident because they can't afford 250 coins for a lore scroll.

I think mav tents/prism/pws should be moddified for each 'class' vs giving them to each class. Your going to have to theme the class's but some of these high level spells are essential for certin zones, or for various stratagies. Well new ones can be found, it still doesn't make much sence to wipe out the normal spells that every mage is use to having. Perhaps one idea is if you want to do this is to make a renegade the normal mage class. Though i have a few idea's i'll throw out there. One being the skill cantrip. Someone offered up the suggestion of Cantrip before as a spell. I think it should be a skill. Something a mage can use in combat to make various effects. Kinda like a random bag of trips. Maybie it will shoot a many lighting bolt that does 20 damage, perhaps turn earth to mud to make them fall for 1 round. Plenty of random small flag effects. It would give more of a mystical thing to mages anyways. They wouldn't have to just assist.

White mages. Higher hold durations and chance on landing. Give them a few clerical and druid utility spells, like create water. Give them more altering spells like blind. Perhaps make Prism lower damage for them with higher chance of effects and more devistating effects. It would make more sense for a white mage to have sunray as i think i read in a book that palim majere had that.

Red Mages. Medium everything. A few new class specific spells and utility. Perhaps a spell that increases their weapon. They should be the middle ground. Having a healthy balance between utility and damage.

Black Mages. High end damage, lower chance on landing effect spells such as hold, higher damage on prism and tents, lower chances of landing the conditions. There damage stats shoudl be buffed slightly as far as spell damage. They totally should be given the spell metor which bashes and does direct damage! black mages should be more spell based then weapon based and perhaps gain more slots then the red mages and white mages but no damage buffs for there weapons.

I think alot of what you do with the spells they already have will be the defining factors. I think it would suck if you took away spells, atleast remotely helpfull spells. I mean who uses clot?. I would like to see new spells added and changed effects... like monster summoning and conjure could be done better. Summon an imp or a fairy for black and white mages, perhaps like a bugbear for neutrals. Give them similar power but differnt focus's on abilitys for each class. Like an invis stalker would be better servering a red or black mage where a sylph is totally white. Black mages should have the hill giants where reds could have storm giants and whites can have a spirit warrior or an angelic warrior or some shit like that. Further more spells like enchant can focus more on HR or DAM aspects of it, perhaps with a posability of a special effect or something like that on a perfect roll. That or give them one aspect and dont make it align based. Let white do HR let black do DAM let red do something new to the weapon like +skill. I would rather see a red/white/black benifiting a clan then them just focusing on 1.

Renegades. I think renegades should be able to learn all spells. I also think they shouldn't be able to learn from a guildmaster either. All books. That would be pretty cool, or atleast mage it so they can load books in zones thats renegade only. Make it harder for them to learn the normal everday spells that mages learn from the guilds but give them full access to all spells. It would make alot more sence. It wouldn't make them ungodly powerful either, simply because the investment to have a rengade mage would be insane for it to get all the normal utility spells and essential damage spells. I'd like to see the renegades be more of the quest for knowledge class. Where you can start one at the begaining of the wipe, and 1x it in a week and spend the rest of the wipe perfecting that character. Lets face it, to many class's are 2-3 week long classes now anyways. It would be nice to have a char you could really beef up.

Additional (elite) White Robe spell

Premonition
The subject of this spell becomes able to look forward in time to see what he or she may someday become and realize that dream early.

DETAILS: Character is treated as having one additional level -- one extra level's worth of hp (random value within appropriate range), ac, hitroll, slots, etc, and perhaps also give a +3 bonus to all skills. Below 30 this is simple, at 30 you would still apply one level's worth of hp, ac, hitroll etc to fit the general pattern of progression up to 30 with the only really different part (I think, anyway) being slots. Some appropriate, static bonus slot(s) at 30 can be determined separately for each class. The duration of this spell should be relatively short, probably around 5 tics... long enough to mem spells into whatever bonus slots you get and help with one important fight be it solo or with a 10man.

I feel some sort of cost is warranted for being the recipient of this spell, but don't know just what it should be right now. Maybe some exhaustion effect after it fades similar to haste, or perhaps some debuff while under the effect where seeing and channeling your future self leaves you completely oblivious to certain vulnerabilities of your current self (maybe makes you easier to bash and decreases saves across the board or something, in addition to negating any sense life, awareness, true seeing and any other divination effects). This whole idea just occurred to me and I wanted to get this out of my brain before I go to sleep.

Seems to be a natural opposition to a Black Robe's Energy Drain to me.

Additional Red Robe spell

Transport
Magically delivers an item of the caster's choosing to a character anywhere in the world. Usage: cast 'transport' [item] [char in world]

Pretty simple, basically a ranged version of the give command.

Your desire is to make the mage more like the mage as depicted in the Dragonlance novels. I realize the inherent difficulty in coding some of the suggestions below, however my intent is not to set out a hard-line set of demands, but rather provoke thought. Hopefully we will some version of these ideas in the future. Not all of these ideas correspond to the robe idea either. But, in keeping with the desire to stay true to the books and encourage team work, I humbly submit the following for your consideration.

Renegade mages should not learn any more guild spells after they forsake the robes. In fact, all of their magic must be stolen thereafter, because by definition, they do not swear loyalty to any of the gods of magic, or the orders which follow them. As such, they should not be allowed any of the benefits of wearing the robes. Such benefits should include learning guild spells after they forsake their robes, using guild mages as anchors to port around, or the ability to gain the highest spells for each alignment. However, with such a detriment, one must have a reason to forsake the robes. As was the case in the books, the reason one might do this is for the sake of power; the pursuit of the forbidden schools of magic. Such magic might reflect an emphasis on bending reality contrary to the will of the gods, the creation of abominations of magic, and crossing magic with other realms of study. How this might manifest itself in arctic is uncertain, perhaps a focus on summoning and control spells, unique alterations and such. That remains hazy. However, the renegade should have a harder time learning new spells (higher % failure) since he lacks the formal education afforded those of the robed disciplines and those he does learn should be penalized, but in the end, his reward should compensate for that loss. His is a struggle against the powers that be, wrestling every drop of power he can from the grips of those he has forsaken. His highest spells should be entirely unique, and perhaps the most powerful, though he should pay a price for them, both in their casting and learning.

Another thing that would make the mage a truer incarnation of the novels is to increase the casting time required for high level spells. When Raistlin cast the spell to teleport them back in time, he spent a LONG time casting it. In fact, any time they were in battle he needed to be protected in order to allow him a chance to successfully cast. Yes, this is already in the game to some extent, but it should be expanded. As it stands, magic missile and prismatic spray both cast instantly, even if one may have a higher failure rate. The higher the circle, the longer the spell should take to cast. This could be implemented by applying a flag to the character CASTING when he begins his incantation. All low spells could appear to be cast instantaneously, but as you approach the higher circles, they could take multiple combat rounds (or even tics) to be successfully cast. During this casting time, other mages would exercise a new passive mage class skill called RECOGNIZE. As he is skilled, he is able to determine what spell is being cast. If he has the spell memorized he has a much better chance to recognize it, and early enough to do something about it. As the spell progresses its casting stages he makes a roll at each stage to see if he can ID it, again based on his proficiency in the skill. If he does not have it memorized, but he does have it in his spell book, he may have a harder time identifying the spell. He may vaguely recognize the circle and school (i.e. 5th circle, illusion/sorcery/etc…) but not be able to put a name to the spell. If the CASTING flag is applied, he cannot recognize other spells being cast because he is too focused on his own spell. During this casting time he has a chance to ACTIVELY counter the spell the opposing mage is attempting to cast (lower spells cannot be countered, they occur too quickly). He may do so by physically interrupting the mage, addressed below, or he can sacrifice a spell he currently has memorized to counter. Using a new mage class skill COUNTER SPELL he can cast his spell to counter the spell being cast. If he does not have said spell memorized, he can use a spell from the same or opposing school (illusion/sorcery/etc…) to partially counter the spell. A successful partial counter may reduce the range/area, damage, duration, etc… of the spell. A mage’s robe will also determine his ability to ID spells, and his ability to counter certain spells.

A mage being physically interrupted while casting was always a dreaded thought in Dragonlance. It should be so too in the game. For multi-combat round required spells, if the mage is interrupted he should make a save based on a new passive class skill CONTROL and his DEX. If he saves, the spell is simply lost and no adverse effects to him or those around. If he fails to save, any number of wild affects result from the loss of his control of the magic, including, but not limited to damage to the caster or the interrupter, an area effect to all present players/NPCs, partial effect of a randomly selected memorized spell from the same school (illusion/sorcery/etc…). Further, a mage in a group may begin casting a spell and while the CASTING flag is applied decides he needs to abandon the spell. Willfully breaking off casting a high level spell comes at a price. If he fails a save, any of these random effects may occur, but of a lesser magnitude than of if he was forcibly interrupted. Further, since the mage should focus on his casting, he should be able to turn on a new option command CAST_ENGAGE. Toggling this option determines whether a mage who is dealt damage, either directly or via an area effect, will engage in battle while CASTING is applied, since being in battle necessarily complicates casting.

Since being interrupted is so critical to a group, all “tank” type classes would also gain a new active class skill INTERCEPT. The skill is similar to the GUARD skill, but instead of trying to rescue the guarded target, intercept would try to step in front of the person he is guarding and absorb damage that is targeted at him, be it a bash, a spell, or normal melee attack, in order to prevent his guarded caster from being interrupted. Area spells are much harder to guard against, but not entirely impossible. The addition of these two ideas makes the game closer to the novels, makes the mage more active while grouping, and encourages synergy between the classes. Mage-bombing becomes much more difficult (though not impossible) without some sort of a meat shield.

Since the mage will take longer to cast, the effects of the spells would have to be increased to compensate for the delay in casting. The balance would be difficult to find, but in the end, it makes the mage more powerful, yet more vulnerable (as it should be), and encourages good teamwork.

Further, in keeping with Dragonlance tradition, after casting spells, mages should incur an additional cost to casting high level spells due to his exertion in the process. Casting a high spell is both a physically and mentally draining process. After casting a very high spell the caster should become slightly disoriented, and perhaps even lose hit points, move points, or cannot cast said spell again for # tics or # combat rounds. Further, his ability to cast spells should not only be related to his INT, but the # of spells he can cast in a given tic should further be related to his CON/HEALTH. If his CON/HEALTH is too low, then he should take physical damage to cast AFTER a certain point.

Last, you should consider adding skills that are only attainable though studying books or quests. As it stands, all skills are learned from guild masters. A mage learns many things from study, not simply magic, but also his trade. One such skill should be a new active mage class skill IMBUE. The imbue skill would combine his skill proficiency, the enchant item spell, the desired effect spell, and a number of components to imbue the desired effect spell to the applied attributes to the item. For example, if a mage casts invisibility on an item, it becomes invisible. However, if he successfully imbues the item, then the wearer is granted invisibility. Since this skill is so very powerful, it should only be learnable at the highest levels, and train very, very slowly. Much like the enchant spell, items that are not enchantable cannot be imbued.

I don’t know how much of this has been discussed before, but I hope that it encourages discussion.

Should I cast flame shield now?

The multiple round idea is not a good one, it would be a serious nerf to mages in any PvP setting.

Imagine a superb basher against a pair of mages, the only thing he needs to do is alternatively bash each one every other round to keep from getting hurt.

Walking the Dark Path Alone

I think if you check the "guildmasters" that one can relocate/port to, one will find that some of them are in fact renegade mages. However that aside, it is a good idea to restrict their abilities related to guild spells.

One possibility is that one could run a quest and through the quest, become a renegade mage. Hence you could become a renegade at any level. However since renegade mages forsake the power of the gods, they also may forsake some of the hindrances the gods place upon them (use of metal and weapon selection are choices that are forbidden by the gods of Krynn, rather than by the choice of guild). So maybe Renegade mages would have a wider selection of equipment available to them, as well as a larger number of hitpoints (for the levels that they are a renegade mage). To balance this they would have a lesser number of spells available to them, and perhaps a slightly larger chance of failing a spell (and great difficulty finding a guildmaster to train/learn from. Maybe they would have to use any of the renegade mages in the game as their guildmaster?).

The real benefit of a renegade mage would be the ability to learn ANY spell, not just those available to his particular alignment.

Education replaces force with reason.

Interesting ideas, but I think as Kapis describes it currently, the ability to learn ALL spells plus higher hps and equipment compatibility would make renegade mages far more powerful than sanctioned ones. The problem is that all of the advantages you give renegade mages are advantages of potential--how powerful an elite mage can be. The disadvantage of higher failure rate is one of logistics--it basically means more renegade mages would be encouraged to stay lower longer, and zone for the higher end spells on a ranked alt. The other disadvantage, one of less available spells, if I'm guessing your meaning correctly, will most likely mean that renegade mages won't waste their slots on deep pockets, enchant, rot, and other spells with very specific utility--especially if they could easily have a friend or trash alt transfer enchanted gear over--and will ignore variations of spells. For example, they might decide all they need is improved invis, or they might take mass invis, for ease of use, or invis for the low slot, but certainly not both, they definitely won't get dim door, and may or may not get teleport, and most likely fireball, shocking grasp, possibly lightning bolt and acid blast, will likely remain unlearned, in order to make room for high spells. Essentially, even if the renegade mage fails half his spells, and only has 1/3 or 1/2 of the total number of spells as a red/white/black robed mage, any moderately experienced player, whether he's an experienced neutral or leading a major clan, will be able to pick an optimized spell set that makes his renegade mage at least equal, and most likely superior, to any of the restricted robed mages, in terms of spell utility--and superior for sure when you factor in better hps and armor.

A way to make Kapis' idea more balanced, albeit one that would be huge work to implement, is to have prerequisites for certain spells. That way, instead of just taking monster summoning, a renegade also has to use a slot to learn conjure elemental first, or instead of just cherry picking the best offensive spells, the renegade mage has to learn a few of the less powerful ones first. That way, the "number of spells" restriction is a tangible limit on their power, rather than something to weed out lower level spells that the normal mages have to learn anyway.

I think Sirabbadon has a great idea with implementing an expanded counter-spell system, and with factoring in casting time as a changeable variable. However, I agree with the other posters that implementing it presents a number of problems. For one thing, giving every tank class the equivalent of super-guard means radically rebalancing the current system of rescue/guard/wardance. The fact that you want interrupted casting to result in either (saved) just losing the spell or (not saved) getting pretty screwed, seems like it would be incredibly punishing for the mage. PK balance would also be shifted greatly.

The one way I could see your idea working is if, instead of your straightforward "higher circles take more time to cast" system, the repetoir of available spells were greatly expanded, with "lower/instantaneous casting time" being considered a balancing factor as import as damage. So you might have a spell like prism in terms of damage/status power, but with a 2-3 round casting time that renders it useless unless you're well guarded, and so the spell is easier to get than prism, and considered by all to be less elite than the real prism spray. Or you might implement some more powerful spells than you have now--for example, have a group teleport spell that takes a long time to cast--making it hard to use as a group recall unless its a VERY well executed and well planned retreat, but still giving you a very safe/reliable way to exit a zone with the group still together.

The key is, of course, that you really can't overuse high casting time, or you'll really screw the mage class over. If it takes more than a round to cast something like dispel magic, or gust, it will make mages far less adaptable in zoning or pk, and if mages don't have any stronger instant frags than magic missiles, or need too much time to puff, then they'll be completely useless in small group PK, and unless Intercept becomes incredibly overpowered, they'll be very hard to use even in large group PK.

Another possibility is to have only certain skills disrupt casting, i.e. unbalance, while simply getting singed by some area or kicked in the face or slashed by some tank only has a small chance of actually making you lose the spell.

I agree with your analysis of my suggestion, it makes sense. The best counter-argument you provided is that it doesn't matter what the spell failure rate is, a mage is a project, and eventually a renegade mage in this system would be much more powerful than a mage in one of the guilds.

I think the point of this revamp is to make the Arctic mages more like the Dragonlance mages. So one major difference between a Dragonlance robed mage and a renegade is the choice of equipment and the other major difference is the choice of spells.

White, black, and red robed mages were quite limited in their choice of spells, and in the TSR version of Dragonlance, the red robed mages had the most selection of spells and the black robed mages had the most powerful spells available to them (which all came with significant costs which a typical black robed mage was willing to let someone else pay). Renegade mages had major difficulties learning new spells but had the advantage that they could cast any spell they learnt, they weren't bound as tightly by their alignment.

Some more ideas:

1. Casting spells of a certain nature affects your alignment. If you cast 'Gate' 7 times a day, you become evil quickly.

2. Renegade mages cannot use components in casting, cannot scribe spells, and cannot brew potions (since they lack the training). They also cannot learn new spells from another mage's spellbook (since they lack the understanding of the arcane language) or a guildmaster. Instead they have the ability to spell-lore new spells (a new skill) and with high enough skill, and enough practice, they can scribe a spell they have experienced/seen into their spellbook. This would pretty much mean that eventually a renegade mage with superb spell-lore, would gain the spell 'Prismatic Spray' and 'Stun'. However they would have to actually PLAY to do this, and visit a variety of different mobs to understand the nuances of the spell. It might also mean that one would bring a renegade mage to a mob that you wouldn't bring any other mage (so they can see the spell). Not sure on the mechanics of this one, and what percent you would have to place the spell learn at so that it isn't broken.

Education replaces force with reason.

What exactly would stop farming sessions of large groups of mages sitting around casting their unique spells until they're shared around? I'd rather not have a whole bunch of blue mages running around.

Nevermind that there's never been such mechanics in Dragonlance, or most, if any D&D products.

Walking the Dark Path Alone

No reason that they can't learn the spells except from mobs, that's easy enough to do. Anyway, I'm just trying to give suggestions of ways to make Renegades much different than the other robes, I'm not too concerned about the similarities in mechanics between TSR and Arctic.

Dave

Education replaces force with reason.

Even if you limit the ability to spontaneously learn from non-player mobs there is simply just too much of an unbalancing effect. I can think of more than a couple of soloable mid-level zones that possess a relatively weak mage mob that can cast fireshield, boost, mirror image and the like. If all it took was a healer and a mid level zone to outfit a mage with all the spells any robed caster would have to have a big group for, then everyone would want to be a renegade.

Book loads are high, but you're not gauranteed every trip. Even then there is still spell failure rate, and the very real possibility there are four+ people in the group with mages. Keep it how it is.

Walking the Dark Path Alone

So make it similar to a rank system. You need to "learn" from a number of different mobs and high level mobs count a lot more than low level mobs -- and you only have a low percentage to get any "learn" points from doing a particular mob.

So it would be possible to learn fireshield from low to mid level mobs, but maybe you would need to "learn" from ALL of them, instead of killing MoM a few times to get 25% of the fireshield "learn" and picking up the rest from the mid level mobs.

That's just hands down unbalanced. Why should a class that has bucked all unconventional training get a free ride as so far as it comes to learning spells? A particular book may not load 25% of the time, and yet they would be well on their way simply sitting there taking a group slot. On top of that, should the spell load, then a non-Renegade mage would get a chance to learn while the other was sucking up 'learn points'.

I am completely against any system that uses a 'learn as you go' spell mechanic.

Just say NO to blue mages.

Walking the Dark Path Alone

I believe the thought would be to make it HARDER for a renegade to get the spells.

Let's say there is a 10% chance that a prism book will load on succubus. A renegade would not be able to study this book, but instead would be required to attempt to "learn" prism from the succubus (which attempt only happens if it casts the spell) and the renegade only has a 5% chance of learning the portion of prism that is required from the succubus. But that isn't all, in addition to "learning" the portion of prism it can from the succubus, it is also required to "learn" a portion of prism from sheana as well.

That actually sounds a bit too harsh to me. But the essential idea is to make each spell that a renegade learns a "quest" of some sort.

They would have an advantage of sorts in that two renegades learning from the same mob don't prevent the other renegade from learning. The possibility to learn from the mob isn't exclusive.

In any case, player characters would obviously not be able to learn spells from other player characters casting them -- that is way too open to abuse.

Kapis, not giving gray mages scribe and brew is a great idea--not only do you have a good storyline justification for why, it also keeps gray mages from giving a huge boost in power (basically giving a clan the same prep for having one spelled gray mage as they would get from a white, red, and black mage combined). There would still need to be more drawbacks to balance things out completely though--a mage with more possible spells, but lacking the ability to make prep, is still far more versatile and powerful when it comes time to actually zone or pk.

I think it all depends on the implementation and the exact same numbers. As many have pointed out, it seems like every mob high enough for slot 7 can prism these days (and I"m convinced a bunch that aren't can, too), so the learn progress possible from "easy mobs" would have to be very low. Just throwing these numbers out by example, but for a nice spell like color that lots of little mobs use, I don't think you should be able to learn more than maybe 20% from mobs that you can do on three people (and the 20% being only if you do EVERY color spraying mob in that category.) Obviously, if you only know where half of such mobs are, you'll only get 10% at most before you have to move on to something harder. With something elite like prism or stun, it would have to be impossible to do it without getting some serious high level zoning for your mage, with wimpy mobs that happen to prism having little relative value (maybe if you do close to every weak prism caster out there, it saves you from having to do a Dracos size mob or something, but either way impossible to learn without running many of the hardest fights in the game). Or maybe for the really hard spells, make it necessary to hit the Cyan level fights, the Sleet level fights, AND a great number of the wimpy fodder fights, something akin to stone skin, where you have to put in the solo work and the group work.

One thing I like about this system is that it forces at least one sector of the mage class to actually play in the groups that pop their spells, though the idea of seeing massive "farming groups" of mostly mages, plus a tank and a healer, ripping through mid sized zones doesn't seem that exciting. Then again, that doesn't seem unlike a lot of rank groups now, only with more varieties of classes all ganging up on Toede-sized mobs.

Another thing is of course the prior point about giving renegades far greater potential than regular mages. I have no idealistic problems with the idea of class having more "finished product" potential than another if its balanced out in other areas--that's basically what the druid is to the current mage and I think it fills a very useful role in that regard. However, I don't think the renegades should be the "harder to perfect, but far superior when perfected" subclass of mages. I can't think of the specific drawbacks to renegade mages in the Dragonlance mythology, and lack of spell restrictions is certainly one of the advantages they have in the books, but at the same time, the "best" mages in the books have always been mages of the Conclave, so it would seem like a departure both from DragonLance mythology and Arctic's current state if the elite mages of Arctic were invariably a grey robed mage.

So if they end up having access to pretty much every spell in the game, renegades will need some tangible disadvantage(s) that limit their potential power enough to counter-balance having such a versatile repertoire of magic. This means, if anything, less HP, not more. If people insist on giving them fewer armor restrictions (in line with the idea that the Conclave/trio of magic gods imposes those restrictions), then there will need to be even further balance against them. Maybe give renegades "unrestricted access to spells" in terms of the various types of magic, but bar them from learning the most powerful versions of spells they can learn, which will be restricted to one or more of the Robed orders. For example, maybe a white rob