Damn you guys are so full of it. What do you care how many people actually are in our clan. Its not your business, anyways. We probably must have about 21 people on irc at any given time, of which about 10 are actually very active. The great varity of characters is everyone of us having 2-3 chars at lvl 30 already. Yes we have been able to log most of our members at given times, we been just lucky. But anyways as i was saying its not your decision how BSP works or anyone else, but BSP. We are a Westfalian state and thus have no reason to even listen to your punny whining. But bend over and kiss my ass.

With Love,
Your Stinking Cleric

Keith, are you actually playing this wipe? Your point of view seems really distorted. Your numbers and statistics about playing time/clan numbers are fucked up rendering the rest of your argumentation useless.

While the numbers are debatable, I would say BSP playtime is 1pm to 1am sys time. Occasionally, some other clans jump in an hour here or there, but in general that's the case. It's around 12:15pm systime at the moment and the numbers are BSP-4 Outlaw-3 NOWclan-1 Relentless-0. When you say,

"We probably must have about 21 people on irc at any given time, of which about 10 are actually very active."

I completely agree with you, except during peak hours (5pm to 11pm) at which point it's at least 13 (usually 15) that are very active. These 15 are usually more than combined NOWclan and Relentless can muster. The ability to have 10 at any time is exactly the point I am making. No one else has the numbers to have even close to that ability. It isn't "luck" as you say; it's how many people in your clan.

As far as that goes, of course it isn't my decision how BSP runs. I just was imploring BSP to remove the blinders, remember the boredom of middle-late last wipe with only RGB and Outlaw very infrequently fighting, and attempt to prevent previously-said boredom by slashing your numbers to around equivalent to those of every other clan. Drive everyone off as you wish, just don't complain about how people won't fight later in the wipe.

Those who play for fun enjoy the game.

Those who play for fun enjoy the game.

BSP usually has 10 active players, ALWAYS. If we have more its luck. If you know its not your decision why you keep trying to make it so? Besides if ya look carefully bsp must be one the of clans with less gametime with main chars. There has been many a nights where we couldnt log cause 20+evils were on, during our gametime. This vision is looked from inside bsp.

With Love,
Your Stinking Cleric

9 BSP on (Zuhra Chunga Seda Panddha Demeter Swor Valerius Otto Cylas), no opposition forces.

Don't tell me my numbers are way off-base or even wrong at all when they prove to be exactly right. Namely, you are wrong.

Those who play for fun enjoy the game.

your dumber than i thought, i wont even reply to this.

by their names, then yes, I am quite dumb. Please don't reply, you obviously missed the whole "competitive balance" part, probably because it had too many syllables.

Those who play for fun enjoy the game.

by dumb i mean you turning this into a retorical problem, thus you will never loose even though its not logical, so why answer.

Maybe the BSP members posting in this thread don't want to reduce numbers with a possibility to "lose", but in the past 1.5 years, BSP has been the loser for a total of less then 2 weeks. All he is saying is you are well on your way to winning this wipe already. Relentless has had a 10 man of it's own maybe a handful of times this wipe. Outlaw was slow to get in the game but then seemed to be able to hold ~10 on some days. Nowclan seems to only be able to muster a maximum of 10 at any given point. BSP can log 10 at basically any time during the day, but the only reason it's even almost a challenge is because they have declared war on 3 groups of people who collectively have the same #'s, but do not have the same organization.

When BSP absorbed the awful stink pit that was apocolypse and took in those ultra scummy players just to hold any advantage, I knew BSP would stop at nothing to win.

It's just a shame that winning isn't really winning when it's like this. The combination of the staff going overboard (the usual) with the pwipe changes and the normal numbers advantage that BSP holds, people will begin to leave (already happening), because there can be no fun when fighting over half the active player killing playerbase.

I like to play Arctic. I like the pk side and the zoning side. Too bad there's never a realistically balanced playing field to ever pk on. It's either jump people for no challenge, or get jumped for no fun.

Can't even arrange a 10v10 because all 25 in irc want blood and BSP can't control them.

20:52, our main time, we MIGHT be able to muster 10 if we took some lowbies with us, but why try when mavlad horde would just log more?
somehow everyone else is able to see that the boredom is caused by "BSP" cept themselves.
and like i already wrote to sufs, YOU(bsp) started the war with us, so crying about how it is to fight 3 clans is pathetic, because its YOUR fault. so it seems like you just want to give yourself a reason to feel bad about your "low numbers" and "oh noes we're fighting 3 clans again" and recruit more and more.
you have it coming, period

Worst part about it is, BSP doesn't realize or refuses to acknowledge that cutting numbers now would increase their fun later. As long as the balance is there, the battles will be there. Remove the balance (due to excessive numbers), and there won't be anyone to battle with.

Those who play for fun enjoy the game.

As someone who just joined BSP and someone who has ALWAYS been in a war against bsp every wipe before, I ALWAYS had the opinion bsp has too many ppl. The total honest truth is, bsp does have 25ish players who have chars, out of those about 13 of us log regularily. When you always see bsp on, its mostly the same people who can just play a ton. That is the honest truth.

Rick

I really hate to say this, but I have to be honest. I can't fault BSP for doing whatever it can to try and defeat the other clans, even if they do always seem to start the wars. BSP has used numbers to defeat their enemies for many years and since it's worked they see no reason to alter it. They have also gotten fairly lucky in that they manage to recruit people who really love this game and are willing to dedicate a lot of time to it.

If it wasn't for some of the assholes they have recruited over the years I probably would have joined them myself (another person who has WAY too much time to spend on this game) years ago. I doubt most people would have anything bad to say about BSP if it wasn't for the few assholes they have recruited for whatever reason. I know they are the only reason I have been extremely Anti-BSP over the years.

Give BSP credit when/where they earn it and bash them for their mistakes. Hell, I was getting soo hardcore anti-BSP that this wipe I was at the point where I was cheering for NOW clan, and as we all know they random more than any BSP ever has. Kinda made me step back and reevaluate my position a bit.

My point is that BSP's main flaw is that when they recruit a few assholes and they don't do enough to keep them in line. And people like me tend to get messed with (mostly with trash talk) because those assholes feel all big and bad now that they are in BSP. So our opinion of BSP gets based only on talking to 2 or 3 people who think they are mud gods now that they have a powerful clan behind them.

Everyone agrees that more numbers are usful. Why then is BSP the only ones recruiting? From my conversations with other clans none of them are recruiting. Take in a few newer players and stop being so elitist, they might be the few extra which turn the battle your way. Either actively recruit to make yourselves competetive or dont enter into a battle you cant win. I am not BSP by the way.

Worst part about it is that all those other clans don't realize or refuse to acknowledge that voluntarily using only unlimited equipment would increase their fun later. As long as all clans have the same chance for the same items, the battles will be there. Remove the balance (due to overpowered limited equipment), and there won't be anyone to battle with.

I've seen times when BSP has 10 on at some weird time in the afternoon. Usually that is prearranged. Perhaps not always. Other clans have plenty of opportunity to prearrange having their best 10 log on at a certain time for the chance to fight, but the sure chance to zone for real if no fight occurs.

I'm also utterly surprised at everyone's assumption that bringing 14 characters to a battle vs. 10 is a useful strategy in terms of winning. I can't find the log right now, but some battle near Lantern BSP brought plenty more than 10 versus a 10 man group of Wild (or whatever they were calling themselves then) and the larger BSP group was beaten mostly through an untargeted color sprayer. Are color spray and ice storm too hard to pop nowadays?

-suf

Yea! WTF! We're nice guys! What's all the propaganda?? But seriously.. you're being hypocritical. LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE. Your post is clearly designed to damage BSP's 'public image' as much as possible, rather than figure out exactly how clan dynamics really work (I can tell you're a neutral).

I can understand you're angry because you think we're trying to destroy the game that you love. We're not. We want the same things as you do. We want enemies to fight. We don't want to dominate 23/7 like last wipe. Soooo chill.. we're on the same page here.

Hey buddy, here's how it works. During that time, there were probably 8-12 enemies active in IRC or playing unknowns. A couple from each clan. If these guys really tried, they could coordinate to force us off. But hey, wait an hour or two, and we'll log off anyway.

You don't see 5-6 enemies straggling around when you've logged a 10-man. You see a mass-log when they have 10+.

Anyhow, we only zone an average of 4-5 hours per day, if you watch 'who' more carefully, you'll see that.

you dont want to dominate? why is mavlad recruiting more and more then? the only reason he is, because he figured you will not "dominate" with skills, but numbers instead.
if you just wanted to fight, you'd be able to do it ALOT more if you didnt log 15+ everytime we maybe would fight.
im sure people wont like fighting you MORE after you pull a trick like what happened in fight against nowclan.
stick to 10v10, and im sure there would be alot more fighting.

Well if i remember bsp has recruited what 2-3 people this wipe? thats not a lot. most are oldtimer come back.

Don't worry about those low recruitment numbers. Once the leaders of Nowclan quit the mud, BSP will absorb what is left of Nowclan.

If that happens ill be sure to leave

LOL. Now this 'ddog' is an example of an internet troll, not worthy of a response. He will exaggerate and play up any of BSP's flaws, and conveniently ignore everything else. It's all pure rhetoric.

For example, notice how he forgets to mention that we returned all equip to NOW, even though they didn't. Notice how he says that mavlad's recruiting 'more' even though there's only been 3 new recruits. See I'm looking at WHO right now, and there's 13 enemies, and 1 BSP, and that's how it is for a couple hours a day, but 'ddog' will conveniently not see this.

And that's just what you're going to see in all of his posts. LOL.

ive been around more than you think, and i have definately pkilled and fought more than you wayne. i have friends in bsp and im not trying to trash anyone (cept maybe mavlad). im speaking of experience, you'd know what i mean if you understood anything. you wrote theres 13 enemies online couple hours a day? what about rest of the day? our zoning time is rather limited unless its weekend, because people do other stuff than mud..
and not to mention when it comes to fighting, people have to stick around or it wont happen, and if people DO stick around,
then you log alot more and noone really wants to fight,
and thats what i tried to say.
please go back to explore kerns or something of your level instead of writing your newbie crap here

Wayne your silly.

Ddog rules your face, your mothersface, and your whole
clan's face.

Thanks

Yah dawg your right i mean we have too much time in our hands. I only study in College, work and study Chinese (dont ask why :P). So yah basically my 2 hours is too much. Offcourse there are maybe others in our clan that have too much time in their hands. But that happens in every clan man. ex:corey, andrew, who ever plays deedlet, charles, they seem to be online all day. With outlaws i got no idea, simply because i dont really mind you mudding, we had great fun when we were together.

With love,
Your Stinking Cleric

Why are you insulting me? This isn't Grade 2.

I'm sorry that you're upset.

is me.

we dont have any unemployed, just lazy people, or people so dedicated that they would skip work to mud, and obviously no chance to play from work either.. and its not fun to go to work/skool after you have slept 3h, plus people do other things than mud, so time to time we are rather low on people, but there is expectations of course.. i wish to fight 10v10 without and scummy backup bringasmanyasyoucan plans and dark ages running in midfight, but how can i be sure of that! (unless we arrange it w ith mitch)

Then deeprent i guess.

It's not just a simple matter of numbers but rather amount available to play and numbers.

As everyone knows mavlad is available 16-18 hours a day and 8-12 of those hours there is at least 9-10 on their side. When it's primetime even more... And this is true for every day pretty much with some days off per month.

For the most part the other clans play very little in comparison. Especially nowclan/relentless who can't field 10 man regularly even at primetime.

When they have 7-8 people, usually bsp has 1.5x to 2x as much in that time frame and since they are on for 8-12 hours in that same period, unless there is a fight, people quickly lose interest and go watch tv/movie play another game.

It's not mavlad and co's fault they play so much and with more people. But the game can't support this kind of dedicated players in it's current format, hence it'll just keep decaying. Already we see numbers drop with school starting, in a few months it'll likely get worse.

I think any changes that remove the incentive to control the mud with sheer numbers and playtime and encourage more playing whether zoning or fighting would be the way to go. People can still have big clans and play a lot but it wouldn't force others to not play.

Easy solution guys, Stop being clanned with Pk clans if you want to zone. Its a easy solution, BSP dosnt seem to bother nuitrals as long as said nuitrals dont pick a clan to side with. Sure, other clans and stray randomers may pick on you a little, but if you make a few other nuitral friends, you have some backup.

If you dont like that solution, try picking a clan that dosnt war aka a peacefull clan

Still being hunted for attacking bsp? talk to mavlad, let him know you set down your sword and He's always been resnable with me, maybe they'll rip you one last time, maybe not, or, give up the months of play you've done on that care, and make another one, I mean it is just a game.

cant deal with those options?

Resolve yourself to laying in the grave and move on to wow or something equally lame, better yet, get a girlfriend and you wont care about ripping on the mud.

You are missing the point. It's zoning for pk. Nobody cares about zoning much beyond getting spells/eq to fight with. If you just want to zone, this thread isn't for you.

Hey Zer, are you are wild and unhappy that your eq decaying which you has loaded behind 27 nowclan/outlaws/wilds being online to force us off? surely it does when wilds just rent any time we log. Fight for having our eq.

---

Only needed 10 NOW to force 14 BSP off, get your numbers straight!

Corey

---
Corey

This wipe almost all my eq is from your corpses. Most of it from your corpse in fact. I'm not the one online 12-18 hours a day to pop eq! But that's beside the point. You live to mud, I don't.

Let's take example of today, you have had ~7-12 on since at least noon EST. It's now 7:35pm. And that will likely continue for the next 8 hours.

The mud population in this period has fluctuated between 33 and 40 mortals.

I remember the time when you used to live in the mud... :)

At the beginning of this wipe NOWclan recruited quite a lot and doubled in size, and our irc became nearly as big as BSP at its smallest. Having played with BSP last wipe when they weren't terribly active and had trouble forming groups I remember the IRC being somewhere between 20-25 regularely, with atleast 5 active at dead hours and atleast 10-15 active at peak. While after excessive recruiting NOWclan peaks at about 15-20 in irc, and 5 active at any given time, we were lucky to form 10 man groups this wipe and often couldn't find 10 for pk so we fought with groups of 7 or so. However, not being able to find 10 people certainly didn't stop us from pking as it stops other clans, as alexandros said: "There has been many a nights where we couldnt log cause 20+evils were on, during our gametime." To me this translates to: we don't want to pk, we just want to boot off enemies so we can zone. That's something BSP does a ton of, zoning... I'm not exactly sure why though. Because of this I would guess BSP mains actually have by far the highest playtime of any clan, despite alexandros' comment: "Besides if ya look carefully bsp must be one the of clans with less gametime with main chars." I can't speak for the rest of my clan (NOWclan), but my level 30 druid Barnacles barely has 3 days of playtime, I 'd be willing to bet Mavlad has atleast 30.

yes, bsp can only log on ~12 normally
HAHHAAHA, you so funny

17 BSPs online
-------------------- ----------------
Mundunugu bsp
Rude bsp
Walkor bsp
Mortah bsp
Xavier bsp
Gail bsp
Ryan bsp
Pashon bsp
Panddha bsp
Cylas bsp
Elicit bsp
Kargan bsp
Lyta bsp
Jaffa bsp
Valerius bsp
Sahrk bsp

and that is only the ppl with BSP tags! who knows how many unknowns you go going at the same time

and i get to see this regularly, so lets all be quiet about how many bsp are able to log on and their recruitment policy

Laff dude if you're just going to lie about BSP numbers, at least do it right, Xavier and Sahrk is both me, and Mortah i have no idea who he is at all, kinda hard that you saw a BSP tag on it. You are really pathetic for just arranging a list of random BSP chars under the title 17 BSP online just to try to fool people and spread some propaganda.

PS.: And before you say more stupid stuff, no i didn't multy, you idiot. My guess is your variable doesn't get cleared after a who brief so it just adds and adds characters to it (learning scripting ;)!)

I would agree that BSP is going to win because we have more player hours. You may think that's not fair. IMO, you can't play 2 hours a day and expect to own the MUD.

Maybe we have no life. Maybe you're much cooler, and are more successful. As I understand, all Relentless players have full-time jobs, and have gorgeous girlfriends, so what's to complain about?

Hrmmm actaully out of this list, I think there's maybe only 4 names that havn't been BSP for at least 2 years, maybe 3 names actually. And I remember this 1 hour that we had 17 on, and no there weren't any unknowns stalking about. The people in our 10man were our solid players, 7 more straggling around just fucking off, because they don't have time enough to be serious players, to use everyone elses excuses anyways.

And really, I agree that if people don't like our numbers, our motives, or why we play this game as per *our* definition of fun, find something else; I'm quite content with maining big dragons, and peacefully peacing that perfect set together without anyone else interfering, I'm totally fine with that. I personally don't thrive on pk, but I do love a good 10v10.

So, I think *everyone* really just needs to take a few steps back, and really just take a breath, drink some hot tea or something. If you like to pk, please don't complain when things go pear-shaped for you. The rules of engagement are kind of in a grey area I'll admit, so if you like, maybe you should try to push at getting some more rules enforced to limit pk to 10 max per side? Use your imagination, it doesn't really matter to us. However our methods, BSP will always win.

as andrew always been saying for 10vs10 there will be only 10. that not works huh?
now remember you having 27 zoning at one point online who was against us.

It's no surprise you think people leaving the game as some sort of 'winning'. Because that's really the only way you 'win'.

The thread is not really expecting anything of you. That would be unrealistic. Any changes would have to be to the game itself, policing itself failed long ago.

Simply put arctic is losing players because it can't find a balance to accomodate those 'casual' players in the current state of the mud and it's aging playerbase.

To be quite honest, nobody in BSP thinks we've "won" as you've put it, Zer. Also, it's really not our fault NOWclan left; they did so of their own volition due to a lot of them returning to school. They've actually demonstrated a lot of grace in doing so, and I havn't heard any complaining from any NOWclan members about *anything*.

Also, please stop asking for *more* changes to the game. The game in it's current state is borderlining on not being Arctic anymore due to all of these constructive changes. The only real problem left is the people, and you can't change people. Those of us who play now are playing as we did 1,2,..,13 years ago, and I won't change how I play for anyone but myself. I don't feel a need to do so, and I don't think anyone else should, either. You might like to hear me say that if you keep ruining the game, that all of BSP would quit, right? Well, that's just not going to happen either :( We're addicts.

So, all of these changes seem to keep failing those of you who wanted them the most. Try to explain to yourself why, and then realise that it has all been in vain.

We are not going to stop.

A few things that can be done to help the non-BSP playerbase:

-Limit PK-Group sizes to 10 max per side. Not really much policing to be done to enforce this, everyone reads the logs, cheaters will be known.
-Changing the 'aggro flag' timer from 5 minutes to 10 or 15 minutes. This might give those such unfortuate clans more time to scrub up some more numbers to react on an attempted pk, and might draw out more from every side to take advantage of this opportunity.

I would write more, but I have to go to work after enjoying my 3 so deprived hours of non-mudding sleep.

Most people that 'quit' do so because they can't play arctic in a manner that doesn't interfere with their life whether it be Nowclan, Relentless, etc. They don't stop playing games or cancel leisure time, they just shift it elsewhere.

As for the old argument about not changing arctic, because it wouldn't be arctic. That is a flawed argument. Arctic has never been perfect first of all to not require changes. Second Arctic is always changing, it's a dynamic game where the playerbase, imps and the code is regularly changing. What was true last year, isn't necessarily true this year and certainly not 5 or 10 years ago.

Your suggestions wouldn't change much imo. Those are specific changes minor in scope but don't really deal with the real issues in regards to 'casual' player retention. Type of changes that would have to eliminate 'mud control' as exerciced by players now. People would be able to play the game at anytime and not feel 'forced' to play a certain way or at a certain hour to the detriment of their life, etc. Probably too drastic of a change but regardless that is probably the only way to control the situation as I see it or a place to start.

You really can't "fix" the "problem" you're outlining. It just can't be done, because it relies on the people you hate changing their ways. So either try to co-exist as best you can, or force a change yourself using current game mechanics and rules, don't rely on changing the game to get your way all the time, that's worse than relying on people to quit game in order to get ahead.

I don't understand what Zer whining about.
Either you fight or not, if you want to have elite eq you has to fight mostly likely or make some good relationships with other clans. BSP plays deep in old WILD hours. It has changed, live with it now.
You want to have top eq and don't fight or what?

Of course it can be done, there is no technical reason why it can't be. A solution would have nothing to do with 'the people you hate' since it wouldn't rely on anyone from the playerbase it would have to be a purely coding solution that promotes an environment suitable to all types of players.

"So either try to co-exist as best you can, or force a change yourself using current game mechanics and rules"

Just like you don't want people to tell you how to play, you can't tell others 'how to play' either. And you can't force a change if the game mechanics don't allow it within a normal play session.

It is not a matter of getting ahead. It's a matter of a lot more people playing vs. not playing. You would have nothing to fear since it wouldn't have to have any direct impact on how you play, how much or with how many people. Just the opposite it should make the game more fun for all, with more of everything.

Obviously if the mud was thriving, the playerbase increasing (or at least constant), lots of fights, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Sorry but I don't think you can understand. Maybe it's the language barrier or maybe you are too young and in 10 years perhaps...

This above is the closest you have come to actually spitting something out, aside from vague references to changes to the mud are needed and politely complaining. There's nothing there for anyone to understand. If you have something specific as a suggestion, why not write it up?

hell, if you cant group 10 man, thats not our problem. Mud is made to form group to 10 for the big zones. Thats a fact. Its not like we have 20 people, 2 groups doing different zones. Check the groups and you will always see the same names on and if you see different they are usually multies. Just to make a point my main char must has 2 days, and is 5 ranks. So shrug, quantity doenst make quality.

People who don't see the problems (or don't care) are not interested in solutions.

Solutions are a secondary step once problems are identified.

problem in yourself

If you don't like it, leave. I'm serious. Quit MUD. If you're not enjoying yourself, then why are you here?

Look, I honestly don't think that you, or 99% of people who threaten to quit will do so. I think it's a desperate grasp at a bargaining chip. It actually sickens me that someone would resort to this sort of threat to get what they want.

Truth is, I don't want you to quit. I don't want you to stay here and be miserable either. So find a way to enjoy the game for what it is, and not the utopia perfect game-world that it should be. Michi said it best!

Threats never get you anywhere but facts do. It's very simple to see population declining (or not). Now some people like you may see that as a positive sign but I sure don't.

And if this thread is making you sick or angry maybe you should take your own advice and leave?

The thing is that this mud tries to retain players of at-least three different gaming mentalities.

1) We have the Mav type people who want to win at all costs and who seem more than willing to dedicate a huge portion of their lives to winning. Since I have a friend who easily puts Mav to shame in his obsession with online gaming I know this personality type very well. And it's not even remotely healthy.... but can't tell them that =\

2) Then you have the Brafu type people. They like a little pk and wouldn't mind being in a serious clan war if given the chance. But they still want to treat this as a game and entertainment and NOT a life style choice that sucks up much of their free time.

3) Lastly we have the people who simply want to get 30-60 min of fun a night/day and then go about the rest of their day with normal healthy human interaction. These people are very sick and need our help.... but for some reason their girlfriends/boyfriends always seem to drag them away and force them to go out on dates and have sex. We shall probably never fully understand these people.... but it's still our duty to try and show them the light whenever possible.

While ignoring #3, since they require far too much energy to help atm, I'll say a few things about 1 and 2.

1 and 2 are not as different as some people may think. The main difference is the amount of their life that each group is willing to dedicate to a simple game. Group 1 is willing to treat Arctic as a life style while group 2 uses it to replace TV (for the most part). If only both groups could come to an agreement that would balance the playing field then both groups could have more enjoyment from this mud than they ever imagined.

PS. While I was semi-joking around I'm very serious when I say that group 1's choice isn't very healthy. Sure, some people can manage to maintain a healthy outlook on life, but most can't and it ends up becoming a very unhealthy obsession.