I'm still not a big fan of the sheaf system, but it has made me a much better player.
If you had asked me when I first found out about the sheaf system, I would have said remove it. I'm a person who likes playing mages the most, and one of the reasons I liked it was because you could explore, and even if you died and lost eq you could still get up and going again quickly. As a mostly solo zoner who has no interest in PK, this made the class good.
With the sheaf system, though, playing a mage lost this, and in order to explore new zones I decided to make some other characters so I wouldn't lose spells. Thanks to that, I learned how to play other classes that I wouldn't have otherwise. It has made me a better player overall.
Also, since book locations were set to compensate for the sheaf system somewhat, I have been able to spell my mage more than any I have had in the past. This has been a very nice thing, since I am not clanned and don't have many people to help me pop the harder books.
Since I have never been interested in the PK aspects of the game, it was only this wipe that I learned how easy it is to use trash mages to wipe out other players with minimal risk. I don't know if the sheaf system cuts down on that or not, but it does add a little more risk to playing a mage for non-clanned players. Having played with it in place for a few months, I think I have benefitted from it overall.
I voted to leave the sheaf system in place. The change in book loads helped to balance the system well, as it's really easy to repop your spells when you know exactly where they load. The increased load rates also add to the balancing. If people really don't like the system then the percentage of spells dropped from your repertoire into the sheafs could be lowered again, although I think it's at a great level currently.
Please post the objectives of sheaf system so we can measure (success or failure) against those objectives.
Khesol's post alluded to one of the objectives ("reduce trash mages, heck toss in druids," I believe) but the benefits he listed are incidental to the intent of the system, as he points out.
Although Mike clearly likes votes YES, his post was based on implementation/balancing issues, rather than whether the system met its intended objectives.
These points are great (and nothing wrong with more such opinions) but also want to answer Aristox's exact question.
If removing the sheaf system means removing the way books load, it might be worthwhile to leave it in. But I personally hate losing a sheaf, it makes soloing with a mage way too dangerous(which to some might be good). But the static book locations meant that you don't have to run the same mobs over and over for no reason other than you keep recognizing the same crap spell and not getting the spell you want. Sheafs aren't that bad because of this. My main complaint with mages now is the annoying fact that you lose a ton of Vs after a relo. What is the purpose of this?? So my vote is remove sheafs, but that means going back to the crappy loading system before than i am on the fence.
I think that just the new book load system asociated with sheaf system is a great improvement for the game and i wont repeat reasons cause i think they were well exposed in previous post, ill just add the amount of new areas you learn on book search motivation, however, the sheaf loss itself is an improvement to game, makes you be more carefull on some aspects, and more risk on anothers (CR), and ends the discussion about who loose more power on death (tanks vs. casters), is even now.
Actually my only real problem with the sheaf system was the fact that if you dt you lose a sheaf with absolutely no chance to retrieve it, as opposed to what happens when a mob or player kills you. Definitely hurts when you hit one while exploring. And in all honesty, it doesn't have any bearing on trash chars at all. I'd love to see the current system left in place with a minor tweak whereby if you dt you don't drop a sheaf, or maybe even just a smaller number of spells lost on a dt'd sheaf.
Actually my only real problem with the sheaf system was the fact that if you dt you lose a sheaf...
True, true! Twice now I've been grouped with a leader who DT'd everyone. Now I won't run my mage in a group unless I know the leader knows the zone in question cold. Before sheafs were introduced it was not an issue for me at all.
I think the sheaf system does push mages a little more (just slightly!) toward being a class for experienced players, whereas before it was as easy a class as any to learn.
I'm not sure what to vote here. I disagree that the original intent and consequences of removal are irrelevant. I can understand why Aristox said it, however. I understand the desire to know our opinion on whether it helps or hurts the game as it stands right now, but I don't think the vagueness of the pole will necessarily give you that information. I can understand Arboreal's desire to know the original reasons, because for many players the sheafs are just kind of a pain in the butt - but the pain is possibly worth it if the sheaf solved some problem. For others, like myself, the consequences of removal spring to mind when thinking about what to vote. In other words, whether you like it or not the 'irrelevant' issues are probably going to affect this poll. Furthermore, you ask us whether to yoink or leave the "Sheaf System" - I think a definition is required here. It's not inconceivable that somebody would group the sheafs together with the higher % and static loads. That subtlety could make a big difference in somebody's vote. Also I think the question of whether the system helps the game encompasses the question of whether it has accomplished it's original goals.
All of that aside, I'll attempt to think about the issue regardless of the consequences of removal or original goals. Does it help the game? It has helped some people become better players - but how many and by how much is not clear (i.e. maybe they would have improved just as much without the system). Basically overcoming adversity (read: "a pain in the butt") will oftentimes make a person grow - but depending on how devastating the adversity is, the growth may not be worth it. For me personally, the system(if static loads are included in the 'system') made me go out and learn some new book loads. The sheaf part of it made me find ways to CR even in difficult or risky situations. The higher % loads has given me a chance to have some fun higher level spells that I've never had before (then again maybe I've been playing enough that I would have gotten more by now anyway). If all of that is included in the system then I think it has been a help for me personally - of course if I had lost a nice spell in a dt that sentiment might change. So yeah...it has improved me personally, and others claim the same - but the people who voted no haven't really said much. Maybe they are pkers who don't like it or maybe they think it's more of a pain in the butt than it's worth (for example somebody who already knew most book loads, has had the higher spells, and always has a 10 man to help with CR). So personally I think explaining my thoughts is more helpful than just a vote 'yes' or 'no'.
I guess my point was really I would rather confuse you with a vague vote, thus forcing the people that care enough to think beyond the yoink it or leave it options to post their views. Which seems to have worked in a few cases, yours being one of the better ones.
Personally, having played a mage in every wipe I've ever been around for, I enjoy the load % change and static load changes. Having the ability to know what book loaded I believe helps the flow of the game. It makes spell distribution more fair (same mobs aren't being spammed on the off-chance they will load a low % spell - look to Htoll for examples). It also requires more zones to be run in order to load up spellbooks.
As for the sheaf system, I believe it adds a greater complexity to the mage and druid class. The loss of sheaf and spells to go with can suck, but it means mages aren't to be used wrecklessly as in the past. And, if a sheaf and spells are lost, well at least you know where to load them. I believe clerics should also go to the static load system and sheaf system. I do agree with previous posts that loss of spells due to DT sucks, but that's part of the game (DT's suck in general).
To determine effect of the system, examine spell distribution from last wipe to this wipe under a similiar timeframe and playerbase.
Keep the system, shred the cheese!
I agree with khesol. I play a mage and i DTed and lost force bolt, luckly it was a quick load again, but still not what one wants to happen while exploring. If u want to keep the sheaf system in, remove DTs from the list of lost spells.
Only thing I have to say about the sheaf system is: we need relearns for guild spells lost to sheafs that are failed in the guild . . . Spending rankpoints sucks for that . . .
Sheaf system made me better at the game
I'm still not a big fan of the sheaf system, but it has made me a much better player.
If you had asked me when I first found out about the sheaf system, I would have said remove it. I'm a person who likes playing mages the most, and one of the reasons I liked it was because you could explore, and even if you died and lost eq you could still get up and going again quickly. As a mostly solo zoner who has no interest in PK, this made the class good.
With the sheaf system, though, playing a mage lost this, and in order to explore new zones I decided to make some other characters so I wouldn't lose spells. Thanks to that, I learned how to play other classes that I wouldn't have otherwise. It has made me a better player overall.
Also, since book locations were set to compensate for the sheaf system somewhat, I have been able to spell my mage more than any I have had in the past. This has been a very nice thing, since I am not clanned and don't have many people to help me pop the harder books.
Since I have never been interested in the PK aspects of the game, it was only this wipe that I learned how easy it is to use trash mages to wipe out other players with minimal risk. I don't know if the sheaf system cuts down on that or not, but it does add a little more risk to playing a mage for non-clanned players. Having played with it in place for a few months, I think I have benefitted from it overall.
Such a change of opinion since last summer...
Leave it.
I voted to leave the sheaf system in place. The change in book loads helped to balance the system well, as it's really easy to repop your spells when you know exactly where they load. The increased load rates also add to the balancing. If people really don't like the system then the percentage of spells dropped from your repertoire into the sheafs could be lowered again, although I think it's at a great level currently.
Objectives of Sheaf System?
Please post the objectives of sheaf system so we can measure (success or failure) against those objectives.
Khesol's post alluded to one of the objectives ("reduce trash mages, heck toss in druids," I believe) but the benefits he listed are incidental to the intent of the system, as he points out.
Although Mike clearly likes votes YES, his post was based on implementation/balancing issues, rather than whether the system met its intended objectives.
These points are great (and nothing wrong with more such opinions) but also want to answer Aristox's exact question.
The poll was deliberately
The poll was deliberately vague.
I want your opinion on whether it should stay or go. The reasons it was put in are irrelevant at this point.
The changes that would or would not occur if it was removed are also irrelevant.
I want to know if you think it is helping the game or hurting the game as it currently stands. Once I have that info I will move on.
If removing the sheaf system
If removing the sheaf system means removing the way books load, it might be worthwhile to leave it in. But I personally hate losing a sheaf, it makes soloing with a mage way too dangerous(which to some might be good). But the static book locations meant that you don't have to run the same mobs over and over for no reason other than you keep recognizing the same crap spell and not getting the spell you want. Sheafs aren't that bad because of this. My main complaint with mages now is the annoying fact that you lose a ton of Vs after a relo. What is the purpose of this?? So my vote is remove sheafs, but that means going back to the crappy loading system before than i am on the fence.
Doubtly an improvement
I think that just the new book load system asociated with sheaf system is a great improvement for the game and i wont repeat reasons cause i think they were well exposed in previous post, ill just add the amount of new areas you learn on book search motivation, however, the sheaf loss itself is an improvement to game, makes you be more carefull on some aspects, and more risk on anothers (CR), and ends the discussion about who loose more power on death (tanks vs. casters), is even now.
I am really surprised, I
I am really surprised, I didn't think the vote would be this close at all. I am still expecting a late surge for 'I like cheese.'
who doesnt like cheese?
Actually my only real problem with the sheaf system was the fact that if you dt you lose a sheaf with absolutely no chance to retrieve it, as opposed to what happens when a mob or player kills you. Definitely hurts when you hit one while exploring. And in all honesty, it doesn't have any bearing on trash chars at all. I'd love to see the current system left in place with a minor tweak whereby if you dt you don't drop a sheaf, or maybe even just a smaller number of spells lost on a dt'd sheaf.
Re: who doesnt like cheese?
Actually my only real problem with the sheaf system was the fact that if you dt you lose a sheaf...
True, true! Twice now I've been grouped with a leader who DT'd everyone. Now I won't run my mage in a group unless I know the leader knows the zone in question cold. Before sheafs were introduced it was not an issue for me at all.
I think the sheaf system does push mages a little more (just slightly!) toward being a class for experienced players, whereas before it was as easy a class as any to learn.
Unfair discrimination,
Unfair discrimination, forcing the cheese lovers of the world to choose between that and sheaf vote.
It's Complicated
I'm not sure what to vote here. I disagree that the original intent and consequences of removal are irrelevant. I can understand why Aristox said it, however. I understand the desire to know our opinion on whether it helps or hurts the game as it stands right now, but I don't think the vagueness of the pole will necessarily give you that information. I can understand Arboreal's desire to know the original reasons, because for many players the sheafs are just kind of a pain in the butt - but the pain is possibly worth it if the sheaf solved some problem. For others, like myself, the consequences of removal spring to mind when thinking about what to vote. In other words, whether you like it or not the 'irrelevant' issues are probably going to affect this poll. Furthermore, you ask us whether to yoink or leave the "Sheaf System" - I think a definition is required here. It's not inconceivable that somebody would group the sheafs together with the higher % and static loads. That subtlety could make a big difference in somebody's vote. Also I think the question of whether the system helps the game encompasses the question of whether it has accomplished it's original goals.
All of that aside, I'll attempt to think about the issue regardless of the consequences of removal or original goals. Does it help the game? It has helped some people become better players - but how many and by how much is not clear (i.e. maybe they would have improved just as much without the system). Basically overcoming adversity (read: "a pain in the butt") will oftentimes make a person grow - but depending on how devastating the adversity is, the growth may not be worth it. For me personally, the system(if static loads are included in the 'system') made me go out and learn some new book loads. The sheaf part of it made me find ways to CR even in difficult or risky situations. The higher % loads has given me a chance to have some fun higher level spells that I've never had before (then again maybe I've been playing enough that I would have gotten more by now anyway). If all of that is included in the system then I think it has been a help for me personally - of course if I had lost a nice spell in a dt that sentiment might change. So yeah...it has improved me personally, and others claim the same - but the people who voted no haven't really said much. Maybe they are pkers who don't like it or maybe they think it's more of a pain in the butt than it's worth (for example somebody who already knew most book loads, has had the higher spells, and always has a 10 man to help with CR). So personally I think explaining my thoughts is more helpful than just a vote 'yes' or 'no'.
And what can I say, I [i]do[/i] like cheese...
Aliquippa, I guess my point
Aliquippa,
I guess my point was really I would rather confuse you with a vague vote, thus forcing the people that care enough to think beyond the yoink it or leave it options to post their views. Which seems to have worked in a few cases, yours being one of the better ones.
Thanks for your response.
Sheaf system...
Personally, having played a mage in every wipe I've ever been around for, I enjoy the load % change and static load changes. Having the ability to know what book loaded I believe helps the flow of the game. It makes spell distribution more fair (same mobs aren't being spammed on the off-chance they will load a low % spell - look to Htoll for examples). It also requires more zones to be run in order to load up spellbooks.
As for the sheaf system, I believe it adds a greater complexity to the mage and druid class. The loss of sheaf and spells to go with can suck, but it means mages aren't to be used wrecklessly as in the past. And, if a sheaf and spells are lost, well at least you know where to load them. I believe clerics should also go to the static load system and sheaf system. I do agree with previous posts that loss of spells due to DT sucks, but that's part of the game (DT's suck in general).
To determine effect of the system, examine spell distribution from last wipe to this wipe under a similiar timeframe and playerbase.
Keep the system, shred the cheese!
DTs
I agree with khesol. I play a mage and i DTed and lost force bolt, luckly it was a quick load again, but still not what one wants to happen while exploring. If u want to keep the sheaf system in, remove DTs from the list of lost spells.
Only thing I have to say
Only thing I have to say about the sheaf system is: we need relearns for guild spells lost to sheafs that are failed in the guild . . . Spending rankpoints sucks for that . . .
EDIT: I also like cheese