Nice argument. I guess you agree fully with what I wrote then, since your only response is a personal attack?

You should know that is impossible.

65 druids... 165 clerics... at MOST 65 of the clerics might have druid alts, and that is only if every single druid has a cleric character, 65 out of 165 isn't "most" by any meaning of the word.

"Mud needs clerics to function. Mud does not need druids to function. Hence, more clerics, less druids. Is that simple enough to understand?"

Apparently it wasn't.

"Are you a moron?

Yes, you are a moron."

I think he was saying your comments were so moronic that they do not even illicit a serious response.

math is so cool
especially if it helps make clerics suck a little less

Please don't change the cleric class. It's great as it is.

it wouldnt be a change to the class
just to the atrocious loads on spells
there are 2 cleric prayerbook loads near solace
and both are terribly low %

Yes, the load percentages for clerics are considerably pants, but their ability to learn new spells is also hampered by the 'random spell from a list' effect, which leads to getting nothing new from umpteen books when you just want that one last spell.

Forgot the 0% holy word

<--- wipe that eye, neutral guy

Yes clerics need sheafs. The main reason mage and druid loads got raised is because of sheafs they can lose these spells. So your saying give clerics a sheaf system and raise loads on spells?

Not necessarily, all I'm saying is that on Sept. 14, Aristox posted the following:

I was just wondering if it was soon-ish yet.

Changes like this shouldn't happen until next wipe. It just punishes the clerics that have worked hard to get their spells.

How many druids feel ripped off that they busted their ass to get spells early in the wipe, and now every druid and his dog has every damn spell?

Loads are just TOO easy now. It's ridiculous that mid-high tablets are just dropped because no one needs them.

I can't believe I'm whinging.

*slap* self.

I am still enjoying the game, and thats what matters.

CHEERS for the staff and implementors.

Paul

Based on these statistics clerics are way overpowered if there are almost three times as many clerics as there are druids.

Well, you do a cleric or 3 for, well, everything pretty much. It is slightly surprising though because actually being a regular healer for a group is a lot of work.

Less like over powered, more like over dependant.
Mud needs clerics to function. Mud does not need druids to function. Hence, more clerics, less druids. Is that simple enough to understand?

Three times as many clerics with 1/4 the spell load %. How does that equate to overpowered? If anything, this shows that druids are overpowered if 1/3 of the high druids out there have one of (if not the best) druid spell.

If druids are so overpowered and clerics are so weak, why don't some of the clerics reroll as druids?

[color=blue]Because many of them most likely have a druid already?[/color]

Are you a moron?

Yes, you are a moron.

Why's it impossible? One of those highlvl clerics is mine, I have a druid alt, unless it idle deleted. Several clerics I xped/zoned with are in that highlvl group, and have a druid alt, or could make one if they chose to.

Besides, I never said those 65 high level druids are used by the clerics, nor did I say a cleric could make a highlvl druid alt, did I? No, I didn't. I said a cleric could make/have a druid alt, never said anything about level, and it's unlikely that those 165 clerics are all in a situation that they can't play other things (ie, they aren't 165 clanned main healers, hell most probably aren't clanned period).

I guess the lack of understanding is how can the mud possibly be balanced as long as certain classes are REQUIRED while other classes are not?

virtually every thread on this board leave me terribly tempted to start using the Socratic method but it's such a waste of time

It's not easy being greeeeeeeeeeeen...

The balance that Arctic has strived for is based on requiring you to group to do things. Any game worth playing in the style of an MMO is going to also be this way.

It's somewhat good that clerics loads are harder to load, (in some cases it does keep more people playing clerics longer as they strive to fill up their prayerbooks), but it's really obsurd in the current format.

I don't think calling you a moron was a personal attack so much as a factual statement based on the statement you had made. The solution is not to make more druids, and there seriously is no logical way to come to that conclusion.

That isn't any kind of balance. If the best groups are 5 warriors and 5 healers, why even bother with classes like druids?

That's not the best group though...

you could have hella prep, and a bunch of druids spamming cure crit, and replace a cleric ... but druids dont have the spells a healer does
not even a druid/paladin combo ... there's still spells missing
so, a healer is an almost necessity for most zones beyond a certain point ..
you can buy refresh scrolls and potions
and now we have scouts
scouts do the V's thing, and the food thing
so it is no long necessary to have a druid in a group
it IS beneficial ... but depending on what you are trying to accomplish, you might be better off with a mage, or a thief, or a secondary tank in the roup slot
if people are worried about how long it will take to get to and from a zone, and money for refresh pots is an issue ... then yes, in the case bring a druid, it becomes a necessity
oh wait
it doesnt
scouts implementation effectively nerfed the necessity for druids in several zones
(/ramble)

[color=blue]You don't have to have a cleric to zone. You can poptons of prep to make due without it. Pop a heal wand or 3, some scrolls and potions. YEs, it's going to be harder, but it's possible to do alot without a healer. Just like it's possible to do alot without a big maintank, or bashers...etc.[/color]

Impossible to zone without a cleric: No
Impractical: Yes

thank you Dia
"Brevity is the soul of wit"
and, apparently, also of understandability

[color=blue]
Impossible to zone without a good main: No
Impractical: Yes

Can also swap in things like: Fraggers, basher, damager, and everything else.

Hell, you can do soth without bashers, but that doesn't mean people are going to do so if they can help it.[/color]

might not be, but it's far better than any other group that does not include a cleric or a warrior.

malthros, needing a tank is not the same as needing a cleric. A tank can be a barbarian, warrior, paladin, sometiems even a dark knight. A cleric is one class, those are 4 classes.

IMO, the mud would be better off if clerics were not as special and important as they are. If you disagree that is fine, but you can't change the fact that clerics are the most needed class compared to any other. I mean yeah you can go zone with 20 heal potions and not bring a cleric, but compared to every other class they are all much easier to replace than clerics. You remove the cleric, there is a lot of work involved in replacing it, be it farming for heal potions, or killing mobs slowly and resting for multiple tics after each fight to let the crit druids fully mem. You remove the druid, big freaking deal you buy a stack of refresh potions and you are fine. You remove the warrior, you get a barb to tank and you have issues on a few mobs that "require" bashers. Warriors are the second most required class after clerics.

The big problem isnt that healers are the best at what they do, its that they're so much better. Lose bashers and you might be able to make due with charge/ravage/swoop even, or silencers in some cases. If you dont have an 800 hp barb to tank, a 650 warrior or a paladin with good shield block isnt idea but isnt that much worse. Leave out clerics and your healing options are basically a paladin lay, DK effectively healing itself once every eight ticks, or a druid with around 700 hps worth of crits. Oh, and of course camp fires. Maybe if druids had lower circle crits, that combined with the new improved commune might make them a healer alternative. Of course, it wouldnt be ideal either, but as it stands, people will live with a paladin tanking, or using scouts instead of fragger/waggers, but i dont know many who will do a 3+ person zone without one of them being a healer.

edited because i double posted somehow

Mountain scouts totally trump a basher in nearly every zone at the moment. In many cases, I'd rather take 3 thrashing scouts than 3 bashers, simply because roar and obliterating+annhilating each round is much more useful than a warrior who can at most obliterate once per round.

It doesn't much matter I guess. Cleric loads are still pretty low compared to mage loads in the same zones, if your idea of character development is attaining all the spells of a class, clerics can be pretty frustrating overall.

They're not too bad,

It only took me 8 months to get all the spells (except Holy Word)

~Rorc

Given that heal > stoneskin, why is stoneskin considered that much more "special" than heal?

When comparing cleric vs druid spells, it speaks volumes (yet goes without saying) that the most powerful spell in the game was left off the comparison table. Just as well--no real need to guess the % of high clerics with heal. That would be an unfair comparison. Or would it?

It's interesting how we rename guilds by their defining role. Clerics are called healers; their defining metric is # of heals (for measuring relative power, zone possibilities, etc.). Druids, on the other hand, are generally called waggers--after a utility spell more a convenience than necessity.

Not only is heal arguably more important than any other spell (let alone stoneskin), it's much easier to gain, can memorize A LOT more of them and much quicker. Indeed, the pace of a zoning group is set to the healer's mem time.

As a point of interest, imagine if only a third of all high clerics were "healers" because that spell was comparatively as difficult to gain as stoneskin--how does that shift our paradigm?

Arb

idea: put heal spell on a final mob in the Gilean's Spire and remove it from all healers. Imagine how much of new fun it will bring in mud?
Everything dies too easy. Mud needs more challengable zoning !

Mavlad is crazy . . . But that would be an interesting fight to get some healers back in the game.

~Rorc

I'd imagine that no one would play clerics if they didn't have heal. They have crappo damage spells except dispel evil which takes a fairly large mem. I wonder what you've have to do to the guild to make them playable. Refresh? FlameStrike at circle 4? Paralysis? Fly? Bash? Shield Block? Hit points?

How about delete mage and cleric guild, and make heal circle 8 druid loading in a buff zone.

Or if we want smaller changes, how about moving heal to circle 7/8 cleric and giving them refresh or "town portal" and very very wimpy bash (like at the level of mage bandage or something) so they can knock down held mobs?

Obiwan never told you.