So far all you've managed to do is cast a shadow of doubt onto the QUANTITY of those numbers.

You've yet to show that it doesn't happen.

I figred I'd revisit this before people accuse me of whining without and constructive solutions.

So we have a leak. What to do about it.

Curb it
-----------------------------------------

Make it officially against the rules to go on ranodming sprees.
The principle of ratios easily shows that these randoming sprees, in Arctic's current nature, cause more harm than good.

Also perhaps coding to auto-damn those who pk too much.

I recognize that we'll never mentally police people's reasons for killing, but its pretty easy to see when someone's just going on a spree.

We can make it less desireable to do so.
* xp loss
* better flag systems
* more consequences in general

The new pk system is supposedly going to do that.

Immune PK
------------------------------------------------

Basically, under heavy restrictions, one can choose to be pk enabled, or not, on character creation.

The basic objections have been:
1) Abuse (ninjalooting, spying, etc)
* Spying happens anyway
* A simple flag system can prevent the two from mingling
either in corpse production or grouping or items (they zap)

2) Creating a sanctuary for those who want to enjoy the GAME would take detract from the game.
* How? If you want to pk, there will be other people in pk-enabled state.
* Usually I just kept getting 'it just will' for that argument.

3) Arctic is based on limited items and wouldn't be fair for non-pk people to horde stuff.
* NOT ANYMORE!!!
Under the new equipment system, lots of loads are unlimited. Even decent items. Restrict the non-pk people to these new unlimited loads. Problem solved (note I said it'd be under heavy restrictions)

4) It's a lot of work for a extreme minority of people who'd use it.
* You'd be suprised. I know many of my friends right now would probably hop on it.
* It may save the player loss because of assholes.

In general:
It would be benefitial because:

1) New players could hang around, non-assholed, and see what the game is about.
2) Old players who are just sick of the bullshit, have a new haven so they can come back and enjoy the game.
3) It balances the system so that it no longer eats away from itself.
4) It diversifies the playerbase again back to how it once was.

Of course these ideas have flaws. All ideas too.
Note, that the current system is heavily flawed too, but that's alright?

Making it so you can't pk or be pk'd would cause MORE people to quit, and MORE randoming.

Example:

Player A decays something nice with a limit on it. Someone with a non pk char gets it and won't give it back. There is nothing Player A can do.

Now, Player A can do two things.

a) random everyone he can out of spite and eventually quit
b) or just quit altotgether as he feels this game has become pussied.

Yes this will happen. It has happened with the current system so your system Rurh, it would happen even more. If you say it won't, you are just being ignorant.

Now you can say, Player A should just deal with it, sorry some people aren't like that (as sad as it is).

Rick

HOLY CRAP YOU ARE AN IDIOT!

Phew now that's over with.

"Making it so you can't pk or be pk'd would cause MORE people to quit, and MORE randoming. "

How would a pk immune person be randomed?
If you chose pk enable, then yeh you chose to want that.

"Player A decays something nice with a limit on it. Someone with a non pk char gets it and won't give it back. There is nothing Player A can do."

Reread what I said...

Edit- quoted wrong part

Considering that your two main points were HORRIFICALLY WRONG, the rest of your post carries little weight.

If pk-enable people kill a mob, the corpse, all the items within, etc, are flagged anti_nopk.
After that there'd be no possible way the person could obtain the item.
You couldn't put it in a container, because the container itself would have been flagged appropriately on kill/purchase.

And it'd work conversely.

Non-pk people could only load unlimited (which there is plenty of decent equipment out there now for), or norent items.

----------------------

I'm not sure if you've played Diablo II, but the non-pk mode is sort of like reguarl Diablo II, and pk mode is more like the Hardcore mode (more risk, more potential)

If anything i'd increase fun for BOTH sides under this system, as randoming would become more acceptable in pk-mode.

Uh, I didn't bother to read all that crap, but Rurh, seriously. I hate getting randomed like the next person, but I don't think it is ever going to be taken out of the game nor is it hurting the game at its current level and you are never going to change the opinion of other people. You can't tell me that you've never felt the excitement of hunting down some randomer who just killed your friend, even if it was some naked ass mage.

I haven't been playing all that much, but the randoming I've seen is pretty small and for the most part its solo or duos and they are not that hard to take down. Heck I had a group of level 5's attack my level 8 thief, I thought it was rather cute. I don't see a big deal with a soloing randomer, its not that hard to take out one person. Even a lowbie I'm sure could get help right now. Currently the neutral player base is bigger then I have seen in over 5 years. A lot of it probably has to do with the changes and the wipe and I'm sure BSP is also part of the reason. They have not been doing much of these bad things that everyone says they do. That and the Finns aren't going around in big groups slaying everything heh.

For those few who do leave from getting pked once or twice, thats unfortunate, but they probably wouldn't fit in. I'm sure a non-cr'able death to a big mob would have the same effect. If it did every become a problem, the immortal staff would deal with it. They have already before.

I could be way off topic , but Rurh's posts are always a damn book. I'de hate to see this guy drunk, you'de have to put a sponge in his mouth!

1. Some people play mainly for pk. Alienating this audience would cause a reduction in numbers.
2. PK makes it hard for newbies to start. However, true "no-prior-mudding" newbies aren't necessarily the target audience for this game. From the front page on the website:

3. Arctic was my first MUD. Despite PK, I continued to play. Frankly, I think that people who can't accept loss a few times probably detract from the overall playing experience.
4. Sure, it sucks hard when you lose all of your equipment. If you've obtained anything nice, chances are you can do it again. It's not that neutrals find obtaining eq difficult, but rather that inexperienced players find it difficult. That's the way the game should be, frankly.

Those are just some thoughts. Personally, I never random. I enjoy killing randomers, actually. I think that point 1 is the most important, though. I'm willing to wager that restricting PK would cause more people to stop playing the game than are currently deterred by PK itself. Sure, you may want to eliminate the kind of people who random altogether. I think those people are often randomers with one character, and very productive zone members with another. I really don't think trading out those experienced players who play because PK is allowed is worth an influx of new players who will quit just because someone killed them. You can die on mobs too, should we remove them so that newbies won't die? Hell no.

Real life: Shit happens.
Arctic: PK happens.

Think of vanilla sky: "Just remember, the sweet is never as sweet without the sour, and I know the sour."

"Uh, I didn't bother to read all that crap, but Rurh, seriously."

[b][size=18]THEN YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO RESPOND TO ME.[/size][/b] 3/4 of the posts I respond do deal with complete idiots who argue with me on things that A) I never said or B) I've already countered but they didn't read.

Jesus Christ people. [b]HOW CAN YOU ARGUE AGAINST SOMEONE IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY JUST SAID, AND JUST ASSUME YOU KNOW.[/b]

And people wonder why my post count is so high.

I read 100% of what is said to me, no matter how long, which is why I pummel everyone.

" I don't think it is ever going to be taken out of the game nor is it hurting the game at its current level and you are never going to change the opinion of other people."

Who said I wanted it taken out? Seriously, WHERE did I say this. (Gee, if people actually read what I said, I woiuldnt have to say this for the 15th billionths time - resulting in them not reading what I've said. It's an evil cycle.)

I've offered an OPTION, that'll remove the degrading half-way turoil, and give everyone what they want.
1) Those people who don't want to deal with assholes - don't have to
2) Those people who want to be assholes and have a lot of intense excitement - can
Both sides would be improved. It would BE MORE FUN for BOTH SIDES.

The concept of trash randomer would disappear.

Eventually, even when people cling to their UTTERLY feeble 'opinions', pure logic can change minds. It just takes time.

"You can't tell me that you've never felt the excitement of hunting down some randomer who just killed your friend, even if it was some naked ass mage. "

And? Give me and my friends the option of being harassed by assholes, and simply enjoying the GAME, we would pick enjoying the GAME.

[b]I never said that people shouldn't be allowed to have both pk and non-pk chars.[/b]

"I haven't been playing all that much, but the randoming I've seen is pretty small and for the most part its solo or duos and they are not that hard to take down. ..."

Wait, I thought this was the [b]majority of the mud[/b] that does this.
Wait, I thought this was a [b]PK mud[/b].

If it is a pk mud, if it is the majority, why is there so little of it?

"Currently the neutral player base is bigger then I have seen in over 5 years. A lot of it probably has to do with the changes and the wipe and I'm sure BSP is also part of the reason."

I've covered this...

You semi-admit why already, yet you don't seem to understand it.
The numbers are already dropping - things are calming down.

I HOPE things stay 'improved' as they are now, but the pattern is already setting in.

"For those few who do leave from getting pked once or twice, thats unfortunate, but they probably wouldn't fit in."

It's funny how in one sentence you're joyful that the situation is good.
Then you turn around and say 'WELL IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, LEAVE'

Don't you get how idiotic that is?

YES, shit happens. That doesn't mean it SHOULD. Or that it's OKAY.

Shit happens, but steps should be taken to REDUCE it.

**Grumble... maybe extra formatting will help people read better?**

You guys complain about me posting so much, yet you [b]ENHANCE[/b] my posting with your [b]SHEER STUPIDITY[/b].[/b]

I didn't bother to read all of this either, but I know exactly what it says. And it's all shit. PK rules, randoming rules, getting randomed rules, listening to people cry after they die rules, especially when they say they are going to quit. when they quit it rules even more. yeah baby.

Brendan:

"1. Some people play mainly for pk. Alienating this audience would cause a reduction in numbers. "

Some people play mainly to play the GAME. Alienating this audience would cause a reduction in numbers. Wait, THAT ALREADY HAPPENS.

Second, my idea would INCREASE FUN for both parties.
The pk oriented can pk all they want. The non-pk oriented can non-pk all they want.

"2. PK makes it hard for newbies to start. However, true "no-prior-mudding" newbies aren't necessarily the target audience for this game. From the front page on the website:"

It's nice you interpret it like that. That statement from the MUD is so vague it could be used in any direction.

People who come from non-pk muds and who are mature, can apply to that statement.
ANYONE who is new to Arctic IS A NEWBIE.

It's called [b]FIRST IMPRESSIONS[/b]. If half the incoming players get a bad first impression, it really sucks for the mud.

"3. Arctic was my first MUD. Despite PK, I continued to play. Frankly, I think that people who can't accept loss a few times probably detract from the overall playing experience. "

And? I most people posting survived despite pk. Everone else left.

Again the 'IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, LEAVE" attitude does [b][size=24]NOT[/size][/b] promote a healthy, growing playerbse. It's assuming we have everyone we need and we'll just leave it at that. If the playerbase slowly dies out, oh well.

"4. Sure, it sucks hard when you lose all of your equipment. If you've obtained anything nice, chances are you can do it again. It's not that neutrals find obtaining eq difficult, but rather that inexperienced players find it difficult. That's the way the game should be, frankly. "

The difference between dt'ing and being randomed is the difference between night and day. Between a chosen challenge, and just plain bullshit.

I can make xp and get equipment fine. Yet even I get tired of re-doing the same stretch of xp over and over and over, and having to re-get equipment over and over and over... because I decided to step out of the inn at the wrong time or sit at a recup for a second.

" I really don't think trading out those experienced players who play because PK is allowed is worth an influx of new players who will quit just because someone killed them."

Who said to get rid of them? One idea curbs the crap activity, the other just makes randoming more acceptable in the proper realm.

"You can die on mobs too, should we remove them so that newbies won't die? Hell no. "

[b]THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT[/b]
..As explained over and over.

"Real life: Shit happens.
Arctic: PK happens. "

Real life: Shit happens. -> Deal with it. (Reduce shit)
Arctic: Shit happens. -> Deal with it. (Reduce shit)

Then, you would be wrong.

Again, just another person sitting back calling a collection of facts and logic 'crap' with NO facts NO evidence and VERY little logic.

Your post is irrelevant.

"when they quit it rules even more. yeah baby"

Let's just shutdown arctic now. Delete it off the server.
Since YEAH BABY THAT'S FUN!

Yes... very logical. I can see you promote the demise of Arctic.

your face is irrelevant.

I don't know why you care so much anyway, since the moment your chars become known about 1/3 of the mud begins actively hunting you. Unless maybe you think someday you can bring about a great clan headed by yourself and Derek, both of which think they rule at pk because they killed some other clan as shitty as theirs.

Woo an unfounded spontaneous idiotic personal insult!

THAT MAKES WHAT YOU SAID TRUE!

Woah I get it.

Maybe I should just start posting

"Hey guys, everything that guy said is crap. I can't show why, but I think it is therefore it is. And that's all I need. Oh, and you're ugly."

Could you be less intelligent?

You really are changing the topic.

Which usually happens when the person starts losing the discussion hardcore.

There's a topic, I'm discussing it... despite 80% of the posts coming from complete illiterates.

I care because maybe I like Arctic, and I'd rather not have it die out?

Unlike you who apparently want to actively destroy it, by your own words.

My original plan: to start posting whatever I felt would aggravate you the most and to prevent people from reading your real opinion.

Success rate: 89%

Entertainment value to myself while at work: 100%

Then you're just as retarded as you claim me to be.

Nice hypocracy.

I can just simply ignore you.

Back to responding to what somene says without reading what they say:

Me: I like Corvettes, especially the red ones.
Bob: You are so full of it. The democrats won't stand for it!
Me: What? What do democrats have to do with it?
Bob: They WILL pass the legislation and it won't happen!!
Me: What won't happen? What legislation? I'm talking about corvettes.
Bob: My god, your arguments are so full of CRAP.
Me: What the hell are you talking about?

OR

Me: I think drunken driving is bad.
Bob: Yeah but it's FUN.
Me: Yes, but it generates a lot of not-fun for many others potentially.
Fred: Yeah but it's FUN.
Me: Yessss... but it causes a lot of harm. You only have to look around to see that.
Jack: Yes, but it's FUN!
Me: Wtf, do you guys hear me? Read a goddam newspaper, and see!
Moe: Yes, but it's FUN!

The "If you don't like it, leave" argument is invalid, because:
The same reason why tech support lines aren't allowed to tell you you're stupid and to go to hell.
The same reason why a restaurant owner doesn't tell a consumer "Well if you don't like our shitty service then LEAVE"
The same reason Major Computer Company's slogan isn't "We build computers. If you buy a computer from us and it turns out to be crap, oh well".

Because THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.
Translated, it's unprofessional to say 'oh well'. Survival is hampered if a problem isn't identified, and possible solutions to curb it aren't contemplated and attempted.

No, it wouldn't be fun for both parties. Restricted PK will simply frustrate PKers. Maybe this option should be allowed when you're under level ... 10 or something. But being unable to PK _anyone_ higher than that level would be really frustrating to a PKer.

Interpret it differently, if you wish. I think that if you're new to mudding in general, death is much, much harder on you. PK simply increases the chance of dying. I'll go into that more below. You're right, the statement could probably be interpreted differently. I think (although I could be wrong) that people would generally agree: Arctic is a difficult as a first MUD.

First, the playerbase isn't dying out. I don't know why you post things like that; there are always tons of people online. The "If you don't like it, leave" attitude isn't just with regard to PK. I lump PK death in the same category as DTs and mob deaths. I know you don't. I'm going to talk more about that below.

Second, I know of 4 new players whom I have brought to the mud. All are new to mudding. Two of them have exceeded level 20 already. All of them have been PKed. All of them are continuing to play.

PK death, DT death, zone death: all have the same effect on players. You get tired of re-doing the same stretch of xp, simply because you died to PK? It would be better if you had DTed? _ALL_ of those deaths are preventable. PK is much harder than it used to be, what with the nerfs to hold. New players who quit because they are pked are likely to quit because they die to mobs. They don't know their way around, they lose all of their equipment, and are generally helpless. I hate dying in a zone, simply because I got bashed at the wrong time and I couldn't recall. I also hate dying to PK, simply because I decided to go afk, or sit in a recup, etc. It's the same hate, though.

My assertation is that people tend to respond to death, any death, the same way. If someone DTs or gets PKed and quits, then they're not prepared to die in a zone. That's the kind of person about whom I am willing to say, "live with it or stop playing".

No, No, NO. It's not different to a newbie!

A newbie can't CR, in general. Even if they die in a zone, they're hard pressed to find the area again, much less get the stuff back. Often they'll die again trying. You see [i]experienced[/i] players bitch about pk, because they can't CR in that situation. This doesn't affect the new playerbase, since it's virtually the same situation.

Like I said above: restricting the PK of higher level characters would make it pointless for the randomer. You may disagree, but that's simply because you've never been a randomer. I spent an entire wipe a long time ago as one. I don't do it now, but I sure as hell understand it. It would suck to see someone of equivalent level and not be able to take a shot at them. Randoming newbies/low levels could be restricted without negative effects, but not a system-wide restriction like this.

Look, this (along w/ the vanilla sky quote) was simply to say that anesthetizing Arctic is lame. Part of the fun is danger. Part of the fun is the potential of loss, and avoiding it. You appreciate good things in life only because there is the potential for things that aren't good to occur. To combat shit, provide people with help. I'm sure you do, and I do too. Take newbies under your wing. Teach them how to avoid PK, how to avoid DTs, how to use recalls and help them CR when possible. Avenge their deaths, et cetera. Give them new equipment, albeit crappy and useless... they'll love you, and they'll be encouraged.

EDIT:

Rurh, I suggest just ignoring pointless posts. Don't go on a tirade about how stupid, illogical, and poorly thought out other people's flames are. If someone makes a point you disagree with, quote the point, cite the reason you disagree with it, and move on. If you've already said a certain thing, so be it. Say it again. You do post a lot of filler rants about the trolls among your actual ideas, and it's really easy to miss things you write. Simply posting that something has already been discussed doesn't mean the poster you're replying to has actually caught your idea, or that they agree with it. If it seems that they disagree, present your reasons for holding your view. I hate flamewars; they make actual posts hard to read.

[color=blue]Again with the same merry-go-round 'logic' bullshit from you.

This 'leak' that will ruin the MUD, is not a leak to msot of us, because we don't see it as the eventual death of the MUD, like you do.

Random PK is neccessary, whether you will admit it or not. You mention accomidating as many personalities as possible, yet fail to realize that'd be the large majority that don't have a problem with PK. For many it adds alittle something that zones don't. You can learn a zone flawlessly and avoid most hardships there, you can't with PK. If you don't think even alittle ranom PK is uneeded then it's a good thing you'll never be in charge of any of the current top player-size MUDs, because they all have it, and all thrive.

As for posting me the numbers, I never said the MUD is stronger than ever, I said it's going fine, it's not dying off, it'll probably have roughly the same amount of people playing as we have the past few wipes. You fail to realize that by curbing randoming, you'd lose players just like you would if you don't. The problem with you is, you're the ignorant asshole who thinks are randomers as dicks in real life, and can't seem to understand people don't always act in-game like they do in real life(if that was true, you'd have only 1-2 friends in the real world, just like here).

You call it salt in the wound if someone gets looted by another when they die (be it pk or mobdeath). What if they dt, or die in a zone where they cannot cr, or it takes them so long to cr that their eq decays, or it's scavenged by a mob and they don't know it? Who's the asshole then, the imm for making the zone?

More pk happens than you know Rurh, but since you seem to think you know everything that goes on on the MUD, you must be right, or stupid, probably the latter.

As for the minority/majority of trash, no we aren't talking about the same thing. The 'minority' is people like taloc, the 'majority' would be when we see 'trash' like Lauriel, or stacked clan chars pking.

A samller pbase does NOT mean a mud is closer to death. MUDs have died while growing in size, and others have lasted for years with only a few dozen people playing them.

I know you like acting high and mighty, maybe it's because you're one of those types of people who felt cheated by the world and are out to prove you're something bigger than you are, but nobdy buys your bullshit.

You tell siris your arguement makes more sense, when he asked you for evidence. Sounds like yet another move by you to bullshit your way out of proving something.

Lastly, you think alot of people fall under 'reasonable' pk, which you're most likely wrong at, but you'll just bitch that your arrguement is more logical (to you, there's a shock), so you'll think you're right. The simple fact is many of these people would take ore part in pk once introduced to it in other ways than just crying about being highlighted or randomed. If you ever met Charles Darwin, I have a feeling your conversation with him would go like this:

Darwin: I believe in survival of the fittest, it's just the natural way of life.

You: N, you're wrong, it';s bullshit, it's just assholes hurting those weaker because they can, and they have no reason for doing so. My evidence proves you're wrong and a moron. You have no evidence.

Darwin: Sorry, but you're wrong, and you know it. I'd like to see your evidence, because the way the world works is proving you to be wrong.

You: Show me your evidence, then I'll show you mine.

*Darwin points at a lion running down a pack of animals and killing the slowest one, then eating it* Ok where's yours.

You: That's not evidence, that lion's an asshole![/color]

This is going to take awhile..

Don't make me tell you jerks to stop talking about me again!

RESIST_HEAT! RESIST_HEAT!

EDIT: Malthros, you can't expect to derive a tenable system of ethics from Darwinism. If you do, you'll be reduced to a nihilism (no, not the character!), in which case you shouldn't actually care what happens.

First off Darwin is a randoming peice of shit that killed my level 6 mage yesterday. Second off take your survival of the fittest crap elsewhere, there would be no one mudding if survival of the fittest applied to humanity, I would have killed all you fat fuckers and eaten you by now. Then I would be a fat fucker too and killed and eaten by the next fat fucker wannabe. Survival of the fittest my left ass cheek. Why does the godless environmental, baby-killing left parade that shit around and then bitch when pollution kills some fucking moth? Survival of the fittest! Evolution is crap.

Pedro offers you his protection.

I wouldn't know why people think it's fun to be an asshole. If they are hunting for eq then i could understand. But with no limits what's on your average level 15? I think people who set out to ruin other people's fun should be sitebanned.

That doesn't mean i think if you pkill someone for eq you should be sitebanned. walking around with lots of limited nice eq by yourself should get you pked. If you are not being smart, you lose it. Live and learn.

<quote>
<cliche>

Holy Cow!

I make one little post and someone flips out and flames me heh. The sponge comment was made in jest by the way, but gee whiz, this isn't some court case. I'm jumping out of this topic, you guys can flame away.

Brendan:

"No, it wouldn't be fun for both parties. Restricted PK will simply frustrate PKers. Maybe this option should be allowed when you're under level ... 10 or something. But being unable to PK _anyone_ higher than that level would be really frustrating to a PKer. "

Illiterate one, there will be plenty of people who those randomers can pk.
For the 8 quadrillianth time...

"Interpret it differently, if you wish. I think that if you're new to mudding in general, death is much, much harder on you. PK simply increases the ... "

People respond differently to mobs than they do to people (in case you hadn't noticed?).
The challenge of exploring ISN'T the same as being randomed as you are looking at the list in a shop.
Randomers, being the assholes they tend to be, often taunt and insult the people they attack. One only has to take a look at mike's ugly personality, and others who have posted to see what I mean.

Mobs don't do that...

Again, it's also a difference between choosing to take the risk of exporing into a new zone, and not choosing to be taken out by two titled druids out of the blue in what should have been a safe area.

Some people find that exciting, the rest of us find that irritating.

"Arctic is a difficult as a first MUD. "
And that gives people the right to be assholes too huh?
People tend to respond positively when treated positively, and negatively when treated negatively. Or will you deny that Basic Human Reaction?

"First, the playerbase isn't dying out. I don't know why you post things like that;"
Of course not, players are combining into conglomerate entities so they count as one person, so the numbers just don't reflect that we actually have the same number of people playing as we really do.

A mud that once had regularily 150-180 people on at a time, by the end of last wipe having 40-60, that's not dying?

"attitude isn't just with regard to PK. I lump PK death in the same category as DTs and mob deaths. I know you don't. I'm going to talk more about that below. "

Then it's an incorrect lump.

"Second, I know of 4 new players whom I have brought to the mud. All are new to mudding. Two of them have exceeded level 20 already. All of them have been PKed. All of them are continuing to play. "

And? I know 4-5 friends off the top of my head that don't random, would rather not pk, but are still here. Most of them would still favor a BETTER system.

"PK death, DT death, zone death: all have the same effect on players."

Numerically and on equipment, maybe.

DT's and Mobs don't taunt people. DT's don't come running after you. Mobs stay in their zone. Thank god soth doesn't make trips to kalaman and slaughter everyone (well, not usually).

"You get tired of re-doing the same stretch of xp, simply because you died to PK? It would be better if you had DTed? _ALL_ of those deaths are preventable."

It's hard to prevent when you're in a zone you should easily be able to handle, when a group runs in the room and 3x holds you.

Not that avoidable... unless you think everyone should come equipped with wiz_eye? Or be stacked with -5+ saving spell? I forgot that brogs inta-kill people with one hit.

"PK is much harder than it used to be, what with the nerfs to hold. New players who quit because they are pked are likely to quit because they die to mobs. "

Even veteran players can quit due to just being sick of the bullshit.
Even so, a leak is a leak, even if it's reduced.

" I also hate dying to PK, simply because I decided to go afk, or sit in a recup, etc. It's the same hate, though. "

But it's not though.
All you've shown is that you lose xp and equipment in each case.
The human EMOTIONS respond differently. Seriously, how often do you find posts on the mortal board screaming "I DIED IN BROGS THIS GAME SUCKS GO TO HELL" - it's usually ALWAYS about randomers or stupid crap of the like.

"My assertation is that people tend to respond to death, any death, the same way."

Your assertion is incorrect.

Most people I know will say 'oh well' if they die to a dt or even laugh about it.
But those same people will get angry/upset if they're randomed.

You can cuss at a dt and it won't perma-kill you, either.

The DIFFERENCE between zone-related deaths and people related deaths is the PEOPLE, who, unless you haven't noticed, can be nice or nasty.
HUMANS REACT DIFFERENTLY TO THIS.

"No, No, NO. It's not different to a newbie! "

It is.
If bob attacks lord executioner and dies, he's most likely to say "haha whoops".
If bob gets held/killed by Joe who says 'Die fucking newbie". It's a lot more offending.

"Like I said above: restricting the PK of higher level characters would make it pointless for the randomer. "

Like I said before... and before.. and again and again AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN...

No one's putting a restriciton on the level with my idea. You'll have one restricted group who just plays for the game. And then there will be everyone else who plays as they do now. It will be as though the non-pk people aren't there. You can't pk someone who isn't there. Yeah I guess that would piss off a randomer if there no one to kill.

BUT WAIT, REDUCED PLAYERBASE IS BETTER.

"I don't do it now, but I sure as hell understand it. It would suck to see someone of equivalent level and not be able to take a shot at them."

Not all randomers are as viscious as you were, I'm sure.
Some are NASTY. And it only takes a few to ruin fun for a lot of people.

" Randoming newbies/low levels could be restricted without negative effects, but not a system-wide restriction like this. "

There would be people who would disagree with you, just like you disagree with me.

"Part of the fun is danger. Part of the fun is the potential of loss, and avoiding it. You appreciate good things in life only because there is the potential for things that aren't good to occur."

Bullshit != Challenge.
AssholeMUD != ChallengeMUD.

We're talking about two VERY SEPERATE things (although subtle).

If you had a 30% chance to have all your characters auto-deleted every time you logged on, you wouldn't play long. That's bullshit.

" Teach them how to avoid PK, how to avoid DTs, how to use recalls and help them CR when possible. Avenge their deaths, et cetera. Give them new equipment, albeit crappy and useless... they'll love you, and they'll be encouraged. "

Teach them how to use the power of WILL to avoid 2x entry-paralysis by people 15 levels higher than him... right.

There may be difficult zones.. but the zones don't come to you.
Unless maybe you think the majors cities should be filled with aggro_all tracking 3x oblit 500hp backstab mobs?

Cities are your base of operation, not the most difficult zone in the mud.

"Don't go on a tirade about how stupid, illogical, and poorly thought out other people's flames are. If someone makes a point you disagree with, quote the point, cite the reason you disagree with it, and move on."

GAH! That's what I keep telling these other people!

Malthros
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"This 'leak' that will ruin the MUD, is not a leak to msot of us, because we don't see it as the eventual death of the MUD, like you do. "

Most people don't realize their tires have a leak till the tire is flat.

If your tire had a gaping hole, and a small leak, yes you'd patch the hole first. But you CANNOT ignore the leak, and pretend it does not exist.

"Random PK is neccessary, whether you will admit it or not."

So, by your logic, if randoming were to stop today.... the mud would vanish.

For very little randoming, it doesn't seem to support the mud.

"be the large majority that don't have a problem with PK."

Good for them. Now, the minority that does...

If people don't have a 'a problem with pk', why do people hunt randomers?
Just as an excuse? Why not random themselves if it's perfectly okay?

"You can learn a zone flawlessly and avoid most hardships there, you can't with PK."

And? It's almost like you think I'm talking about removing pk.

Most randomers aren't looking for a challenge. You don't learn much from entry-holding, frag-frag-frag dead, a character that's 10 levels below you.

"If you don't think even alittle ranom PK is uneeded then it's a good thing you'll never be in charge of any of the current top player-size MUDs, because they all have it, and all thrive. "

I not talking about general pk.

I'm talking about unrestricted bullshit randoming.

And funny you should say that.

I posted this quite awhile back. It shows that unrestricted pk is not totally popular.

NOW, I went and got updated info.

Unrestricted pk, again, not the most popular.

" I never said the MUD is stronger than ever, I said it's going fine, it's not dying off,"

Have you taken calculus?
If it's not stronger than ever, and we all know it had a lot more players at one time... that must mean that... we've declined?
Decline means dying off. Right now we have an artificial injection of life, which may or may not be permanent (one can only hope), but again..

Would you like me to post the quote of the artificial reasons again?

"it'll probably have roughly the same amount of people playing as we have the past few wipe"

What magical reason would it have had (before the changes) to stop declining? If we have no real influx, and our veteran players are all that's left from the initial boom of the mud opening.. doesn't that spell stagnation?

"You fail to realize that by curbing randoming, you'd lose players just like you would if you don't"

Yes, those 3-4 people who have fun randoming and cause frustration to 20... Hell, I'd take 4 people over 20 anyday!

Adding diversity to the mud helps boost the mud.
Most of the recent changes are based on this.

My idea is based on this. Diversify the mud, so that it isn't swarmed with assholes.

"The problem with you is, you're the ignorant asshole who thinks are randomers as dicks in real life, and can't seem to understand people don't always act in-game like they do in real life(if that was true, you'd have only 1-2 friends in the real world, just like here). "

I forget that everyone roleplays.
The only difference between how we act on the mud, and how we act in the real world is (unless you're new to the internet.. hehe n00b), online people are more uninhibited. But the personality is still there.

It's like doing shit in dreams that you'd never do when you were awake.
But it's still based on the same person.

"You call it salt in the wound if someone gets looted by another when they die (be it pk or mobdeath). What if they dt, or die in a zone where they cannot cr, or it takes them so long to cr that their eq decays, or it's scavenged by a mob and they don't know it? Who's the asshole then, the imm for making the zone? "

This has been discussed before. There's a world of difference.
Most rational people can identify it.

When it comes to pk... its personal. Not an accepted challenge that you failed at. Exiting the inn shouldn't be a challenge.

Having your chars mass deleted at random when you log on isn't a challenge.
It's a slaughter.

"More pk happens than you know Rurh, but since you seem to think you know everything that goes on on the MUD, you must be right, or stupid, probably the latter. "

That's strange.
I've yet to be attacked this wipe.
I've yet to be highlighted as a clan this wipe.
Few of my friends have been attacked.

BSD/outlaw have been relatively calm.

I think we disagree on what we define in quantity of pk.

"As for the minority/majority of trash, no we aren't talking about the same thing. The 'minority' is people like taloc, the 'majority' would be when we see 'trash' like Lauriel, or stacked clan chars pking. "

Then let's start talking about the right thing.
I'm talking about randoming trash - That minority you seem to be staying away from.

If yuo don't like Bobz0r, and want to kill him.. feel free.
If you're bored and decide to whack some lowbies for the hell of it.. you're doing more harm than good.

"A samller pbase does NOT mean a mud is closer to death. MUDs have died while growing in size, and others have lasted for years with only a few dozen people playing them. "

So a business that only has 3 customers, they're DOING GREAT!

If you have an increase in clients, that's good. If you have a decrease in clients (other than seasonal cycles), that's bad.

Arctic is a non-profit entertainment business.

"I know you like acting high and mighty, maybe it's because you're one of those types of people who felt cheated by the world and are out to prove you're something bigger than you are, but nobdy buys your bullshit. "

Discarded as irrelevant dribble.

"You tell siris your arguement makes more sense, when he asked you for evidence. Sounds like yet another move by you to bullshit your way out of proving something. "

Yes it does, and I showed why. No one's yet to refute it.

This is your cue to tuck tail and run because you can't, because teh facts are rock-solid.

Again, if the facts are false, it should be easy to show they are false.

"Lastly, you think alot of people fall under 'reasonable' pk, which you're most likely wrong at, but you'll just bitch that your arrguement is more logical (to you, there's a shock), so you'll think you're right. The simple fact is many of these people would take ore part in pk once introduced to it in other ways than just crying about being highlighted or randomed."

I never said 'a lot of people' The definition holds, because it does. It is what it is because that's the way it's been defined.

The question has never been how much fun pk is.

The question is, does the trash randoming provide more net fun than frustration...

http://mud.arctic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7023&highlight=ratio+fun#7023
(Somewhere in that page)
The principle of ratios clearly shows it does (which no one has yet to refute).

** Herm was going to link to my investiagions to suf/salcha polls... will have to find and add to library later.

"Darwin: I believe in survival of the fittest, it's just the natural way of life. "

Again.
The purpose of arctic is now to produce the best players of arctic.
Unless people actually BREED through the mud, evolution DOES NOT OCCUR in the mud.

Arctic is artificially created, artificially maintained, and so on.

Without reproduction, the game would die out, as would any population of creatures, with or without 'survival of the fittest'.

Evolution DOES NOT APPLY.

---------------------------

I'm ready to hear this evidence which supposedly shows me what I've SAID (note not what you think I said IN A POST YOU DIDN'T READ), is wrong.

Try actually using facts/logic that haven't been, over and over, refuted and shown false.

Benwa and whoever else:
Lets try and keep politics and religion out of the mud discussion. A persons religous beliefs have nothing to do with these things. How do you know what side of the politicle spectrum other people are on? What does godless have to do with enviromentalism have to do with baby killing? And what does any of that, have to do with a text based mud?

AdamG

Kamij $.02

Rurh I'm gonna have an intellectual conversation with you tonight.

I guarantee you that it won't be happening.

/Practices temperance.

Now aren't you guys glad I diverted that explosion into another thread?

what you saying my primary ambition in life is to get rurh drunk!

That'd be hot.

<quote>
<cliche>

I wrote this like 4 months ago.

While looking for past info I came across it.
I soooo reminds me of the discussions I have with Malthros/siris.

Rurh, unrestricted pkilling just means anyone can kill anyone. I know one of the muds on the top 10 list (Carrion Fields) restricts pk by only allowing players to kill people within 30% (above or below) of their total exp. However there's 10x more PK on that mud than on Arctic. It has half the active playerbase of Arctic but is consistently in the top 10, not because it's more fun than Arctic, which it isn't most of the time, but because more of their players vote, submit good reviews, etc. Their website has a easily visible buttons to vote at various sites and they just devoted a section to more links, to show people how to put those buttons on their own websites, to rate their mud, etc. http://www.carrionfields.com/Marketing.html They've had a recent surge of newbies because of this, 27 the other night. So really, Arctic's problem is not PK but poor advertisement.

What I was showing was that if that were the case, wouldn't you think there's be more even distrubution?

There isn't. It's a definate pattern, from the last time I searched the info, to now.

If it was just a matter of advertising, one wouldn't expect to have such a pattern.

People's arguments has been that the unrestricted pk, and do whatever the hell you want, results in a very popular mud.

It's clearly not the case.

I never equated 'unrestricted' to randoming.

But it's harder to pull bullshit when things are restricted.

-------------

Or are you saying that only restricted pk muds advertise well?
I wonder what the scientific explaination for that is.

I think most muds have restricted PK; it doesn't make them more successful. There isn't that much PK on Arctic, but you always have the option to kill someone who pisses you off whether it's lvl 1 or lvl 30. To me that's ideal.

Does someone existing piss you off?

Do trash randomers have some intrinsic hatred of other sentient beings?

Well, maybe..

But what I'm saying is that attitude isn't exactly the same thing.

God damn its irritating when you spend 20 minutes inputting data into excell, then you click 'save' and the program locks up.

Rurh, don't call someone illiterate who can obviously read and write. It makes you sound like you don't know what the word means.

Replace the word "anyone" in my above sentence with "everyone", and you'll have my opinion on the matter. Randomers won't be happy not being allowed to kill certain players. It won't be random anymore; it'll be planned. If you're pk-enabled, you're expecting it and you can't be randomed.

I'll respond to this below, with the PK/DT/zone death stuff.

Yes, the numbers were dramatically low at the end of last wipe. Most people attribute this to the painful dominance of BSP. While restricting PK would have prevented a lot of their threat, most people don't think PK was the problem. Look at the numbers now... you see 60ish in the lowest times, during the wee hours of the morning.

I'm not saying I know 4 people who agree with me, I'm saying I know four brand new players to the Mud. 4 examples of [b]growth under the current system[/b]. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but that your cries of shrinkage are a little unfounded and rather alarmist.

Perhaps you're right. All I know is how I react to these situations, and how the newbies who I help react.

Whether a newbie dies in a zone or to a PKer, getting new equipment and being helped by another player ameliorates the problem. I've seen many a newbie say they're quitting after dying to mob X and not being able to get their 2d5 prime back. They don't know any better, of course. Sure, having people taunt you is categorically different than DTing (althought you're on to something: DTs that make fun of you and chase you down! Just kidding... but maybe on Chaos day!). It's demoralizing. When I talk to people, though, their main problem is that they don't know where to start. They don't want to start over again, with getting equipment, with releveling, et cetera. I always try to help get them started again.

I admit, people who are assholes about PK are really frustrating. And who said that a reduced playerbase is better? I think that's baloney.

I know you're not suggesting a level restriction. I am, though, if anything. I think the only way this would fly is if the non-pk option was only available until a medium-low level, say 15. I think randoming newbies in brogs or other low zones is just a nuisance that detracts from the game. There is no hunt when you kill someone that low. However, I think there is no reason to allow higher level characters to hide from PK.

Again, the target audience is a mature playing community. You'd probably say that playerkilling is immature, and taunting the victim especially so. I can probably agree with the latter assertation. When I used to random, I'd often give the person's stuff back out of pity. Sure, sometimes I wouldn't. I'd never target the same person multiple times, unless they came back for more. I just happen to think that the mature response to being killed is to figure out how to avoid it in the future, retaliate if you can, and move on if you can't.

I remember the frustration and bitterness associated with dying to PK. I can't quite place my finger on why, but I don't want that part of the game removed. No, it's not because I have a "screw you, go home" elitist attitude. I feel for those newbies who get PKed, and I try to help them out. Part of my problem is that they [i]know from the start[/i] that this is PK Mud. Having a such a dramatic reaction to being PKed seems a little hypocritical. I'm not saying that they should feel no emotions, though. I know the way one's heart drops into the pit of one's stomach when being paralyzed and coned. I don't think being safe from attack is worth the price you pay: being unable to attack anyone you need to attack.

I'm just going to stop talking about this. I think it's true. I don't think it's bullshit, asshole-ish, or at all related to a 30% chance of autodeletion.

You're right, there is nothing one can do to avoid people who PK so far below their level. We had a whole thread talking about it, with that BSP / Kunuk situation.

Avoiding it is definitely not as hard as you suggest. An aggro_all, etc mob running around your town is going to decimate every newbie that comes by. Randomers have their fun for a little while, kill a handful of low people, and people step up and hunt them.

I *DO* think you can teach people to avoid it. I haven't even been attacked once this wipe. I have two characters > 25, one between 20 and 25, and two below 20. I play almost every night. I stay in major cities, around randomers and clannies. I'm essentially invisible. As far as I'm concerned, Arctic already is a peaceful zoning Mud. I have some tricks to avoid confrontation, sure... and I think those are really helpful.

PK IT!

EDIT: Damn you brendan and your ninja posting that would have been so_funny now it's just so_lame.

<quote>
<cliche>

I am the ninja class on Arctic.

I agree with Brendan for most of what he said. I also think he has thoroughly owned you, Rurh.

Also, I have no idea how the pk-enable pk-disable system would affect clans, but it would surely be ridiculous and horrible. I think most people would have a pk char and a real char, with the real char having all the best equipment so they don't ever have to risk it. How would clan pk and ambushes work? I imagine most or all of the group getting ambushed would be zoning chars, with pk disabled. Clan pk would only ever happen when both sides wanted it to happen, which is boring as hell and sucks. Not only that, clan pk would be with mostly poorly eq'd characters because all the gear would be on pk-disabled characters... Anyway it sounds awful to me.

It's not easy being greeeeeeeeeeeen...

"Rurh, don't call someone illiterate who can obviously read and write. It makes you sound like you don't know what the word means."

You've got to wonder about someone's reading capability if you've stated something many times and they still haven't gotten it.

Literacy is also related to the ability to assimilate bulk text quickly.

"Randomers won't be happy not being allowed to kill certain players. It won't be random anymore; it'll be planned."

Uhhh? I'm doubting you understand my idea.
The pk portion would not operate ANY differently than it does now.
It'd just be more intense.
You'd just have more casual people who opt out.
Or do you actually prefer these people go to another mud?

If yes to the above statement, then you endorse Arctic Degredation.

"If you're pk-enabled, you're expecting it and you can't be randomed."

We're pk enabled now, and we expect it, yet we get randomed.

"Yes, the numbers were dramatically low at the end of last wipe. Most people attribute this to the painful dominance of BSP. While restricting PK would have prevented a lot of their threat, most people don't think PK was the problem. Look at the numbers now... you see 60ish in the lowest times, during the wee hours of the morning."

BSP who were doing what? Randoming? Being assholes? Doing the shit I'm talking about that leads to mud degredation?

Pretty sure I've stated this before.
A majority of people thinking something doesn't make it true.
Most people can think anything they want. They ought to show it's true though.

Yes yes, we see higher numbers now.

And the numbers are already settling...
Peopel get excited over new things, but new things become old things eventually.

"I'm not saying I know 4 people who agree with me, I'm saying I know four brand new players to the Mud. 4 examples of [b]growth under the current system[/b]. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but that your cries of shrinkage are a little unfounded and rather alarmist."

Good for them then. 4 examples of exceptions.
Let's say that during this time duration 6 people were introduced.
Your 4 survived. That's 2 we lost. Not to mention it's not a guarantee that they won't quite tomorrow.

The leak! The leak!
Leaks occur at one person at a time.

Obviously people do survive, else none of would be here...

But we can lose people anyway due to stupid reasons, which CAN be fixed.

"Whether a newbie dies in a zone or to a PKer, getting new equipment and being helped by another player ameliorates the problem. I've seen many a newbie say they're quitting after dying to mob X and not being able to get their 2d5 prime back. They don't know any better, of course. Sure, having people taunt you is categorically different than DTing (althought you're on to something: DTs that make fun of you and chase you down! Just kidding... but maybe on Chaos day!). It's demoralizing. When I talk to people, though, their main problem is that they don't know where to start. They don't want to start over again, with getting equipment, with releveling, et cetera. I always try to help get them started again."

I haven't been saying that people don't quit due to zone deaths.
I'm saying pk deaths are more likely, and more viscous and personal.

I've seen people rack up large zone deaths and carry on, only to get quite upset and take breaks and whatnot due to single pk bullshit.

I agree, not knowing what to do doesn't help. But the crap randoming is EXTRA bullshit that DOESN'T need to happen.

If this NEEDLESS activity forces ANYONE away, it's a problem. The only question is how much.

"I admit, people who are assholes about PK are really frustrating. And who said that a reduced playerbase is better? I think that's baloney."

You seemed to be saying that a reduced playerbase doesn't mean a mud is dying. So are you saying that how many players a mud has doesn't matter? If it finally dies it doesn't matter?

It's either negative (which you deny), no affect, or positive (which you deny).

"I know you're not suggesting a level restriction. I am, though, if anything. I think the only way this would fly is if the non-pk option was only available until a medium-low level, say 15."

I've suggested somethign similar in the past. But hey, if it accomplishes what I'd like to see, then I could go for it.

Higher level people are more likely to survive randoming anyway.

"I think randoming newbies in brogs or other low zones is just a nuisance that detracts from the game. There is no hunt when you kill someone that low. However, I think there is no reason to allow higher level characters to hide from PK."

Except if it enhances the game because it allows for an old audience to return to the game.

"Again, the target audience is a mature playing community. You'd probably say that playerkilling is immature,"

Have you met some of these randomers? They clearly don't meet the criteria.

"and taunting the victim especially so. I can probably agree with the latter assertation. When I used to random, I'd often give the person's stuff back out of pity. Sure, sometimes I wouldn't. I'd never target the same person multiple times, unless they came back for more. I just happen to think that the mature response to being killed is to figure out how to avoid it in the future, retaliate if you can, and move on if you can't."

I partially agree. My assertions are to try to take steps to increase the player population, and not just say "Well if they don't like it, leave".

"but I don't want that part of the game removed."

I never said I wanted it removed.
Those who want to pk will be able to do so basically normally.

"problem is that they [i]know from the start[/i] that this is PK Mud."

A) Not everyone does. Or not everyone knows the extent. Many more than pk oriented people come to the mud.
B) As explained before, the mud isn't as pk oriented as people seem to think.

In fact Aristox is supposedly working on changes to make it more pk oriented.
He halfed the pk xp loss to try to promote people to pk more.

So much for being a pk mud. "Pk mud" to me says that pk is THE center of it. With the hardcore zoning that is required to maintain a character, and with how LITTLE pk that actually occurs.. it just sounds more like "pk allowed" mud.

"Having a such a dramatic reaction to being PKed seems a little hypocritical."

People get tired of bullshit.. go figure. We aren't machines.

"I'm not saying that they should feel no emotions, though. I know the way one's heart drops into the pit of one's stomach when being paralyzed and coned. I don't think being safe from attack is worth the price you pay: being unable to attack anyone you need to attack."

Why would you need to attack someone?
Would it because they took something of yours? - They can't under my system.
Is it because they killed a mob you were working on? - They couldn't.
Was it because they stole zone? - They couldn't.

The only reason you'd NEED to attack someone, was if you didn't like the guy's face.

"You're right, there is nothing one can do to avoid people who PK so far below their level. We had a whole thread talking about it, with that BSP / Kunuk situation."

And that's what I'd like to have curbed/eliminated, among other things.

Again, even veteran players can get sick of the bullshit.

For one, all you have to do is observe during a chaos day. Even hardcore pk'ers get burned out FAST.

"Avoiding it is definitely not as hard as you suggest. An aggro_all, etc mob running around your town is going to decimate every newbie that comes by. Randomers have their fun for a little while, kill a handful of low people, and people step up and hunt them."

No one said it was very hard. I've yet to be attacked (unlike what they say on Suf's). Yet, if that unlucky person logs on at the wrong time and is annihilated, the person is more likely to say "aww screw it" than normal.

And that's one more player gone, when we only have 80-100 on regularly (right now).

That's a significant reduction. 1% every week is significant over time - remember erosion principle.

"concerned, Arctic already is a peaceful zoning Mud."

Nono its a PK mud, you're supposed to PK and RANDOM!

"I agree with Brendan for most of what he said. I also think he has thoroughly owned you, Rurh."

Hardly.

"Also, I have no idea how the pk-enable pk-disable system would affect clans, but it would surely be ridiculous and horrible."

[size=24][b]SHOW HOW[/b][/size]

Let's see... what shall I invalidate now.

Oh! The law of physics is a load of crap.
*Poof* the universe implodes.

" I think most people would have a pk char and a real char, with the real char having all the best equipment so they don't ever have to risk it."

The 'real char' couldn't have 'the best equipment'
YOU GOD DAMN IDIOT.

Once again, a total imbecile doesn't bother to read what I've said, and useds stuff I've already covered, or haven't every said, against me.

Yet another post dedicated to defusing the stupidity of another person.

"How would clan pk and ambushes work?"

They'd operate the same as usual.

" I imagine most or all of the group getting ambushed would be zoning chars, with pk disabled. Clan pk would only ever happen when both sides wanted it to happen,"

Which is different from now, how? I've already covered this.
Beyond Clan A (pk) not liking the ugly faces of Clan B(nonpk), they'd have no reason to attack them.

Outlaw/BSD would have pk groups and fight as usual.

"Not only that, clan pk would be with mostly poorly eq'd characters because all the gear would be on pk-disabled characters... Anyway it sounds awful to me."

It SOUNDS awful to you?

[size=24][b][u]You OBVIOUSLY DID NOT READ WHAT I SUGGESTED[/u][/b][/size]

Otherwise, you would SHUT YOUR GOD DAMN AIR HOLE, because you'd understand how THAT ISSUE HAS ALREADY BEEN SOLVED.

Is the large text/bold/underling helping people see what I'm saying better?

I'd have flashing text, flareguns, blackholes, etc...

Every person who tries to argue with me without having any idea what they're arguing about, is a fool.

Boggle? You're full of shit.

First of all you're using a totally made-up situation to prove your point. LET'S SAY that during this time 6 people were introduced? Well Rurh, LET'S SAY that randoming does not ruin the mud. Hey, what a great way to prove a point!

Second of all saying everyone that plays is an exception is a pretty big leap of logic, at least if you're saying they're exceptions to the rule that randoming makes all new players quit. I don't know how you intend to prove this, but if you're going to say most players that try the game don't play it I can tell you there are 500 different reasons for that and only 1 of them is getting randomed. I've tried other muds and decided they weren't for me without ever encountering the pk system.

Finally your own argument doesn't back up what you're saying- if 2/3 of the people who try this game continue to play, then they aren't exceptions.

It's not easy being greeeeeeeeeeeen...

Rurh Rurh Rurh

A PK system where limited eq could only be touched by pk set chars? wtf are you thinking? All the nice limited eq would go to no pk chars!

See how you gotta argue is less words. watch.

NOPKSET == NO NICE EQ

ALL LIMITED EQ == FLAGGED ANTI_NONPK

So if you say "I want my character to not be involved with pk" it means yes you may not be involved in PK, but you cannot be as great as someone who takes that extra risk.

So if you can interpet, people who say I AM NOT PKABLE can also touch NO limited eq.

Calling em morons doesn't help, even if they don't know the history of science.

<quote>
<cliche>

OK I'm done with you Rurh, you are obviously an angry person and I know from experience with women that you can't argue with an angry person. I'm sorry I'm not willing to read 50 pages of you yelling at people in bold, insulting them, and saying you've already covered all of their points. It is almost impossible to decipher your full idea because it's scattered throughout [i]50 pages of yelling![/i] Maybe if you were better at making a cogent argument you'd have more acceptable responses.

It's not easy being greeeeeeeeeeeen...

Every other person who wants to prove me wrong says:

"Well Me and my friends survive the plague that wiped out 98% of the world's population, therefore there was no problem."

These people are exceptions in that they survived vs. all the people who have tried arctic and didn't.

Arctic is a mature challenging mud, or are you saying that 95% of those who try it survive?

In that way they are exceptions.

" I don't know how you intend to prove this,"

I don't know how you intend to prove otherwise.
All I need to do is show that ONE person has quit due to randoming, and I am correct.

Would you like to [b]PROVE that NO ONE HAS *EVER* QUIT[/b] due to randoming?

If not, it happens. It's a leak that isn't necesary, and it can be fixed.

Of course you stuck to arctic as opposed to the other MUDS. You've always been an asshole in the game. Naturally you'll migrate to a mud thats SWAMPED with assholes.

Your post didn't prove anything.

All you managed to do was:

----
You're full of it.
You can't prove it.
It doesn't happen much therefore it doesn't exist.
----

"Finally your own argument doesn't back up what you're saying- if 2/3 of the people who try this game continue to play, then they aren't exceptions."

2/3 is optimistic.

You think that your picking apart at my definition of 'exception' has proved anything I've said wrong?

HaH!

If you cannot prove what you are saying then you may as well quit.

"and saying you've already covered all of their points."

Because I have.
In fact, unless you hadn't noticed, I've started linking back to SHOW that I've already covered it.

If you are confused about the idea, you may ask for clarification.

If you don't understand it, then you can't possibly refute it.

But you tried to do that, so you're an idiot.

Have this conversation 300 times consecutively.

See how irritated you are with ignorant idiots.

Most of my posts thusfar have simply been telling people:
1) I already covered that
2) I didn't say that

If you [size=24]READ[/size] what I've said [size=24]THE FIRST TIME[/size] I said it.
I wouldn't [size=24][b]HAVE[/b][/size] to say it [size=24]OVER[/size] and [size=24]OVER[/size] and [size=24]OVER[/size] and [size=24]OVER[/size].

Dofkin - again, I hope you're being sarcastic.

You didn't actually say anything dif