Renshai tried this when they were in a war with BSP last wipe. BSP used a group of 10 "Unknowns" and killed a Renshai zone group in DKO.

If someone who is Known to be an enemy is grouping with someone else, there are 2 possibilities as to who this other person is.

1) The person is part of that person's clan or a close friend who is willing to help them, and doesn't care about the risks.

2) This person is a neutral and doesn't realize that this person is in a clan.

In case 1, killing the "unknown" that is grouping with someone evil will do one of two things - Make the "unknown" Known, or, cause the "unknown" to stop grouping with this person until they are higher level (and already suspected of being evil) so the clan that killed them knows to watch for them if there's going to be a battle.

In case 2, unfortunately a neutral dies, however, this neutral will then know that the person they are grouping with is involved in a war and that they should avoid grouping them or they will likely be killed by that person's enemies. - Result - This neutral will either stop grouping with this person, or, this neutral will continue grouping with this person and become a permanant higlight as evil, making them known, and lets the other clan be prepared for them if there's going to be a battle.

The unknown friend of an enemy assisting in a battle can be devistating during the fight. For example, if you have a friend with an "unknown" cleric, and have him bring the cleric to battle, the likelyhood is that the enemy won't know what class he is until he casts heal, which could result in the enemy losing the battle.

Although this may seem a small victory in the grand scheme of things, it could actually be a huge victory and turn a war around.

Example(this is just an example, using Outlaws since they have the nice gear): Outlaws bring 2 nobashes, 3 dragon orbs, the shield of huma, and various other NICE items into a battle on some of their charachters.

BSP brings a group of 7 known charachters, and 3 people who are unknown.

Outlaws aren't expecting the "unknowns" and aren't prepared for what they're able to do.

Because of the unknowns, the BSP group manages to kill outlaws healer (and take a nobash/dragon orb), then a mage (another nobash/dragon orb) and another mage (the last dragon orb), and then goes on to kill 3 more of the outlaw tanks before the rest recall (humas shield, lots of +dams etc)

BSP would then have superior gear, superior damage, and outlaws would no longer have the major advantage they've had all wipe (more/better gear). As a result of this battle, Outlaws are no longer able to fight 10vs10 and they start making attacks on smaller groups. However, BSP is prepared, and ambushes and kills the small Outlaw groups, Outlaws are then down to virtually no gear, down lots of experience, and unable to reload some of their more important items. Outlaws soon get beaten so bad that they are unable to form any groups and either start recruiting neutrals, or they collapse and quit the clan/mud.

So, since a single battle could turn a war around, and since an unknown could be the cause of a victory in a single battle, it's logical to believe that an unknown coming to fight, when people are un-prepared, could result in the destruction of a clan(albeit unlikely)

-

Basically, Highlighting people for helping evils may or may not be a good thing, but it's what's been done for a long time now, and it works. Mistakes do happen, but when they do, we try to fix them so they don't repeat. And if you managed to make the highlight list, there's probably a good reason.

~Rorc

Too long, didn't read. Could you simplify it?

That better?

~Rorc

Since you like to use real life analogies Rurh:

Your crummy United States is in a war with Japan. However, China starts giving a few tanks and a few guns to Japan. This won't decide the war but it helps the Japanese some. Now please tell me if the States is going to let China continue to do this without repercussions.

Sorry for the silly example but I'm sure Rurh's simple mind can figure it out.

Rick

There would be no repurcussion because it wouldn't be the Chinese government giving the support, it would be Chinese shell corporations that are really owned by the United States, and they would be selling them to Japan.

The United States has a long history of providing arms to both sides of a conflict in order to make money. Recently we've added a new spin, we then invade a country that we've funded arms to for over a decade and claim that we're searching for weapons of mass destruction.

And besides, our economy is so fucked up currently that we couldn't go to war with China, they might stop exporting goods to us. The United States can no longer "buy American" since for a huge portion of products there is no "American" company that manufactures them anymore.

Rurh use an analogy that you actually know about. No such thing as "good" octane, octane is octane. Only thing that changes is the percentage. Which would be closer to saying high octane fuel is like elite players and low octane fuel is feroz.

Rorc:

First of all, I hope you see the irony of the 10 unknown bsd beating up renshai thing.

You're defending against the problem you create. It stems from the same WAAC crap.

It's like randoming people to teach them to defend against randoming, but if you didn't random them to teach them to defend against randoming, they wouldn't need to know how to defend themselves.

People like your clan pull the crap that causes the paranoia, then you turn around and say its perfectly okay to go on rampages because of that paranoia.

How about, people stop being low, and the other people stop being paranoid?

Possibility stuff:

I covered most of what you said already, and countered most of it already.
But a few comments:

You say killing the person or attacking them or whatever will 'make them known' and will allow you to keep an eye on them. Aren't you doing that already with a simple highlight?

Causing that neutral to not group his friends? Nothing wrong with that, even though one way or another that neutral friend doesn't help the enemy more than would happen anyway. It's like you think it hurts the enemy. Yet all it does it cause another person to have even more difficulty finding a group, if not killing the mud some more.

See that's the thing. You people as a whole need to step back and try to care about the damage you do to the mud (even more so than the randoming I discuss regularily). You have the power, and unfortunately, you're slowly eroding away at the playerbase because you can't look past your own immediate petty wants.

---

The unknown enemy assisting, leading to devistating fight... leading to war turn-arounds and whatnot...

...And? Most of that has to do more or less with how stable you are as a clan. And BSD has proven to be resilient to the point where even if you do lose a battle, and some equipment, you'll still bounce back. It simply does not have a huge bearing on you, as shown by your own track record.

As far as your Outlaw example:

First, see above on the idiocy of you guys causing your own problem.
Second, a little reconnasaince can solve the issue of 'them bringing them unknowns into battle'. A cleverly placed eye, or scout could tip you off, if they're coming at you with extras.

If you could do that, you wouldn't have to destroy the playerbase to maintain your security. Well, if you do destroy the playerbase, I guess that's 'unfortunate', and oh well, we don't really care.

"(albeit unlikely)".. exactly. Through all the harm you guys have done over the years, is it really actually worth it? And I mean to everyone, not just yourselves.

----

Bullshit on the 'If you'er highlighted, there's probably a good reason' statement. Utter complete bullshit.

BSD is the only clan I've seen actually go on a rampage, slaughtering 'suspect wilds' left and right, with no actual proof, or accuracy. People are mis-highligted time again very frequently, for usually idiotic reasons, and for some reason its our fault, the casual zoner minding his/her own business, when out of the blue this angry mob obliterates him/her for apparently no reason, because SOMEHOW the person got on someone's highlight list.

You only have to look as far as Ruin to see how much you guys care about how accurate your highlights are.

Rick:

It isn't the same thing. General trade and commerce 'helps' these countries, but we don't go to war with anyone who's having some form of commerce with an enemy state.

DIE JAPAN FOR SELLING IRAQ ONIONS THAT WILL HELP FEED THEIR SOLDIERS TO DESTROY US!

Why is it different?
Iraq can grow their own food. They may not necesarily have the ability to manufacture their own bigass weapons.

A clan multi can get their own equipment/xp, but may not necesarily have the ability to obtain dragonorb/humastuff.

If a unknown neutral was giving dragonorb/humastuff to a clan multi, then we've got maybe something on the scale here.

If it's just some casual zoning, it's back to onions.

If that person helps the clan load dragonorb... so? that 10th slot would have just been filled by someone else. 90% of the group was probably in the clan.

Cyria:

You totally missed the point... as usual.
Your post was completely irrelevant.

Okay I read Rurh's post. When you say "necessary" do you mean necessary to play the game or necessary to win the war? No, highlighting people and killing them isn't necessary to play the game and have fun. Yes, highlighting people and killing them, because of the way the PK system is set up, is necessary to win the war, which translates to fun to some people. Another reading of "necessary" is whether it's necessary for BSD to kill highlights in order to survive. No, it's not necessary. But it's not necessary to zone, explore, chat on IRC, PK, etc. in order to survive as a clan. You'd just all be wearing shop gear, have your zoning times reduced to nil, but don't worry, you can still chat in the inn. To many people this is not fun. The common thread linking these all together is that clans do what leads to fun for themselves, not others.

As an aside, these days it's impossible to tell whether someone is neutral upon further questioning, after what I've seen how convincingly a wild member pretended to be a neutral, with the whining, pleading, feigned cluelessness, and typos. In this case, the highlight was formed on gut instinct based on what the person was wearing (crappy but somewhat peculiar) and the zone knowledge he had. After returning gear and most of BSD unhighlighted him, he was seen zoning with wilds maybe a few weeks later. Because of this I feel it's pointless to unhighlight after talking to the person, because if he turns out to be an enemy you're made a fool of. I'd rather kill an innocent neutral because of the shitty predicament from clanned people pretending to be neutrals, than fall for someone's lies.

This is where I disagree with you. I would much rather "accidentally" kill a clannie just for fun than kill an "innocent neutral."

Clannies have no good way to fight back!

Recently, When has BSP gone on a rampage (and what was the reason behind it?)

*Note - Killing 1 or 2 highlights is not a Rampage*

*Note - I didnt say that they don't know that the "unknowns" are coming, I was trying to point out that they aren't prepared for the "unknowns."*

And a wiz eye/scout can't necessiarlly let you know what class each of the unknowns are. (Before the most recent battle, preps were being passed out on both sides including steelskins, fireshields, ice shields, mirror images, globes, enlarge, and many others) And since half the people in the room are affected by these spells you can't really tell if a fireshielded person is really a mage, or someone who just used a fireshield prep.

Example: The first time outlaws saw Aces in pk (they knew he was bsp and a mage) but they didn't know that he stuns. He casted 3 stuns before ANYONE attempted to bash him. That is the kind of advantage that a "unknown" can bring to a fight. If someone brought an "unknown" mage, who happens to stun and/or tent, then that mage could provide a HUGE advantage for the battle. 1 stun + 1 tent = 5+ rounds that someone is immobalized and easy to kill/ignore.

That's the problem we face. We kill suspected enemies, they manage to convince us that they're truely a neutral (*note - they don't quit the game like Rurh says most people who are killed by EVIL BSP's do*) and after we remove them from the highlight lists they go and group with the enemies that they "weren't" with.

Rurh - if you could come up with some foolproof way to show what "unknowns" are with a clan, and which are truely neutrals then I'd love to hear it. Unfortunately, as the mud stands at this moment, there is no way to do it. People lie, that's all there is to it. We could pick 15 people during our normal zoning time, the likelyhood is that half of them are with one of the enemy clans, pretending to be neutral and since we have no other way to tell, we just have to kill all of them and try to sort out who is who after all of them are dead and the flags are gone.

~Rorc

i don't see why you fight with rurh about clan politics or how clan wars go down he's never been in one very few people are good enough to wage a long term war rurh just fights to fight about crap. it's not needed to kill unknowns to win a war is it an option? yes does it make sense yes well then people will probably do it thats all there is to it. do i complain because rurh goes to kala graveyard and whacks off??? no because it's it's choice is it dumb?? yes does it hurt anyone yes, his dog but we let him go on his way WHY DO YOU FIGHT WITH HIM JUST IGNORE HIM HE"S LIKE THAT FAT KID WITH A NEW TOY HE JUST HAS TO TALK AND TALK

Shutup Josh. Not only do you sound ignorant and uneducated, but you are just plain annoying. Yes, we know Rurh likes to debate.

Josh, you know, you can just ignore us both.

We're both set on different sides of an issue and it seems that we're going to be arguing about it for quite a while.

~Rorc

derek bite me ass i swear to god i don't know who you really think you are but i do get tired of your condesending tone everytime i post something if you don't like what i say fine be like rurh and bitch about it but your gonna listen

Josh: Return key and Punctuation are your friend.

That would be the uneducated person part I was refering to. Don't know who I think I am? I think I'm someone who can kick your ass!

You just get mad when someone points out you're wrong Rurh.

You guys are so off topic.

Cyria: There's little anger involved.
You made an extremely idiotic post, and I pointed it out, and instantly discarded it.

JoshN: You're just jealous that you haven't scored with those undead females in the cemetary.

But back on topic:

First, let me make a distiction: I'm talking about actually going after and killing those people who are with your official enemies, as opposed to simply keeping an eye on them.

How can you argue that this is necesary to ensuring the survival of your clan, when you're already getting the snot beat out of you, losing set after set of gear?

Rorc:

It wasn't recent when bsd did the rampage... was a few months back.

"And a wiz eye/scout can't necessiarlly let you know what class each of the unknowns are."

This is true, but your highlights should cover that. You don't need to kill the person to find out what class he/she is.

That, and I doubt a clan would (unless you're loading the spell like nuts), give PWS to some new, crap char, for the element of suprise for one battle.

Aces wasn't an unknown who was just casually zoning with someone you didn't like (making reference to Aces in a way that you aren't in the same clan). He's been an active member of the clan who was fighting the other.

"That's the problem we face. We kill suspected enemies, they manage to convince us that they're truely a neutral "

Yes, that's when they are correct highlights, a possibility I covered.

I think the misconception is that I don't understand the situation you are in.
Maybe not to the fullest extent, but I do.

But I'd like to think there was another way.

And I've given this plenty of thought over the years. ..To establish some form of Neutral Registry. Not a clan per se.

It'd be a cooperation between the major clans, and would not necesarily protect the members. But it would not allow trash randomers as valued members.

It's a formal system to openly list yourself as a known neutral.
Naturally it'd be abused as hell, but the system would be designed around that, to build up trusted members, weed out the crap.

If Bob has been shown to be trustworth and such, he can invoke his name in his next generation of characters officially in this listing. New members can gain references from trusted members... and blah blah blah.

And the clans can post lists of players they would not like to see the Registered Neutrals zoning with, and such.

But note, this isn't anti-pk thing, just a cooperation with the clans, to create some breathing room for the neutrals and more casual players.

The only way that a system like this would work is if it was actually a clan of sorts. There is no other way that you could know that someone isn't just lying to keep a charachter unknown. If this "registry" was a clan, then you could verify who people are and reduce the number of people who would try to abuse it.

Although people can still lie to get into this "clan", it'd be more work than it's worth to keep a charachter unknown until level 30.

Like it was suggested earlier, the only way to keep a neutral known as a neutral would be public about who you are, avoid grouping known clanned people who are at war (most people can figure out who is with which clan by all the logs on the pk pages - ie. http://arctic.elay.org)

I'd consider it almost a basic requirement for playing on this mud to keep yourself familiarized on the current player related situations going on. Just like in real life. A US Citizen wouldn't go walking down the streets of an Iraqi town where it is known that people are being killed for being american.

Likewise, a player shouldn't go grouping people(weither it be 1 or 100) who are known to be aligned with one clan when it is known that people spotted grouping that clan are being killed by another clan.

In my opinion, the best way to keep off of a highlight list is to avoid grouping with clans (on either side of a war) alltogether.

~Rorc

Rurh:"JoshN: You're just jealous that you haven't scored with those undead females in the cemetary. "

yeah i did but got the freaking clap stupid skanky women can't even get it on with undead chicks without getting an STD bah

PS clap or no clap that undead made rurhs mom suck in comparison! OHHHHH BURN WHAT NOW??? YOU DON'T KNOW ME I DO WHAT I WANT!!!! :) hehe just kidding

I'm quite open and vocal about who I am with my chars, and vocal about the fact that I am neutral. I haven't avoided grouping with clans at all, my attitude has been more to ignore the whole clan situation.

I've grouped with every major clan except, I believe, Outlaws, and have not been highlighted or attacked for it. Admittedly the fact that my normal playtime is around midnight - 5am PST makes an impact, the hunting I'm sure is not as prevelant at that time.

Yes, the playtime does help as you're playing right in the middle of wildlaws zone time and BSP doesn't have more than 1 or 2 players online during that time.

But like you said, being vocal about who you are and that you're neutral helps a lot more than trying to keep a charachter secret and unassociated.

~Rorc

I've said it before, to Rurh and others, and I'm saying it again now. Please for the love of god stop using analogies to explain your arguments. It is totally pointless, adds nothing, often makes no sense at all, and almost always gets people arguing about the semantics of the analogy itself instead of the actual argument at hand. STOP DOING IT. PLEASE.

It's not easy being greeeeeeeeeeeen...

Also your gasoline engine thing was just complete retardation.

It's not easy being greeeeeeeeeeeen...

It's a higher form of language.

I'm sorry you don't speak it.

I love analogies.

Built upon metaphors and similies - can create an intricate and complex understanding with relatively few words.

Of course the same concepts can be expressed in smaller, simpler terms, dudgingly over the course of page after page after page.

What you're asking me to do is like asking me to stop using Perl and start using assembly language instead. Sure, it can be done, but who the hell would want to?

...probably those who don't know Perl.

Which is, of course, the inherent problem with analogies, is the required commonly understood fundamentals to which the analogies are constructed upon. Non-understanding, or differently-understanding individuals can come out of it with the wrong information.

So when a person reads an analogy, 3 possible results occur:

1) The person understands the correct point, and conversation continues
2) The person does not understand the point, and asks for clarification.
3) The person thinks he/she understands the point, but totally misinterprets it, like Parn, then rambles on in non-organized fashion, about how the analogy poster is a complete moron, despite the fact he/she was the person who is incorrect.

Unfortunately, only 1) results in the conversation making progress.

If you don't like the analogies... you can't stand the heat of the calibre of high level communication, then simply don't read them. You only advertise your own inadequacies.

the heat of the calibre eh.. makes sense

It's not easy being greeeeeeeeeeeen...

Rurh, it shows more inteligence speaking on a level that can be understood by your audience then speaking over thier heads. If you use high falutin speakin werds, and the people your talking don't get it, your really just wasting everyones time. So maybe, instead of yelling at them for not understanding what your saying, say it in a way that the laymen can understand.

You say that only 1 outcome of analogies forwards the conversation, leaving you with 2/3 that don't. Why use something that is so geared towards failing. It's easy enough to deliver a point without an analogy. Sure it looks pretty, but if it's more likely to leave people lost, or not understanding the conversation/debate, then what purpose does it serve.

A truly good analogy will still speak on the level of understanding of an audience. You use something the person is familar with in your analogy to demonstrate the point you are trying to make. You wouldn't use an analogy about spacial black holes when trying to describe to a car mechanic something, you'd reference it to something mechanical that he could understand. Thats the point and purpose of an analogy, to use an example that the audiance is familar with to demonstrate your argument.

If the audience can't understand your aurgument then maybe something is wrong with you, or at least the way you present it.

Ia/AdamG

Kamij $.02

It would be a waste of his time to do so. People who don't know him on a somewhat "personal" level or at least "casual" don't give his posts the time of day. Instead they like to pick at everything he says in an attempt to make him look stupid or ill-informed, yet they always fail. If people would just read his posts with an open mind, respond in a non-confrontational manner and counter his posts with valid, logical posts he wouldn't rant and rave nonstop. Instead you fuel him with more and more posts with your ignorance.

Well, anyways now I'm the one ranting and raving so I'm gonna come to a stop here real quickly. In short, this goes for everyone, myself included. Try to look at things through different points of views and with an open mind before you respond. It's fine to have alternative views, but to make a logical choice it's best to be educated with other options.

*Amen*

Derek the Preacher

I don't know Rurh on a personal or even casual level, but I give his posts the time of day. I read thru them with an open mind, and try to understand his side of things. If you look at responses I've had to his ideas, I don't pick apart his ideas, although I don't give his rant posts the time of day. Generally I filter out portions of posts that turn to insulting, and disregard that part. Rurh does set out to insult people. He gets frustrated that he cannot convince people to come over to his way of thinking, or that they don't see his side of things. After getting frustrated for people not seeing what is so obvious to him, he can get nasty with his responses. This is my opinion anyway, I might be wrong, but it doesn't really matter.

The whole point of my previous post, is that it's not a waste of his time to use analogies that his audience can understand. To give an example, I sell cars, and if I was selling a car to a mechanic, I'd tell him about the power and performance of a vehicle because thats something he'll identify with and understand. If it's a mother with children, then I'd talk about the Safty and Comfort features that she would identify with and are important to her. This is a general starting point, but it breaks the ice. I don't waste time talking about compression ratio's to someone who's never seen an engine to convince them it's a good car. I tell them about things they can identify with and understand.

If he wants to sway his audience, they won't care what he's saying if they can't understand him. You may get flamed and this or that for speaking in laymens terms, but at least people are hearing your message. If people respond, your doing something right, thats the whole point isn't it? Now it's on them if they flame away and waste everyones time. If you speak a language no one understands, they might not flame you, but they won't hear what your saying either, which is defeating the point of posting in the first place so you may as well not even post.

Ia/AdamG

Kamij $.02

He doesn't personally attack anyone for no reason, when someone asks for an arguement (starts a fight) he doesn't hesitate to retaliate, but while he is a strange individual he tries to do what is "right" in the moral sense.

NOTE: These comments are my own, I cannot speak for Rurh, these are just my observations/opinions.

I think that when he gets talking all intellectual sounding is when someone tried to put down his idea and act as though he is less than them. In which case he fires back with this elaborate description of why they are wrong, as a way of sorta saying "YOU CAN'T HANG WITH ME BITCHES!" Okay, maybe not quite that, but you get the point. He's a smart kid, *shrug*

I can't really say that he's always right but what I do know is that he doesn't go looking to start fights and piss people off (except for a select few! *cough* corey *cough*) Blah blah.

-Derek

Darkages (enough said)

~Rorc

Actually I do try to use general level analogies (if you've read them).

Or are you saying that people don't understand that engines use gasoline and have mufflers? Doesn't say much about the general knowlege of the playerbase if not.

Nor was I talking about the correctness of the analogies. Whether the point is right or wrong, I'm talking about whether the point was conveyed at all.

No one said creating a good analogy is easy.

A picture is worth a thousand words, even if a scribble is hard to read. Seq wants us to discard the usage of pictures because he's blind, and describe the pictures like so:

There's a cat. It is generally red. Although, from torso quadrants one through two, the hue is shifted by thirty degrees, creating a gradient. The cat's head is rotate, twenty degree pitch, negative fifteen degrees yaw, earns rotated about their skul-normal axis plus or minus seven degrees...

...It just doesn't do the same thing

It's not as complicated at that. I treat people as they treat me.

Launch attacks at me, I launch them back.

Have civil discourse with me, get civil discourse back (although there probably have been occasional exceptions).

I've been relatively civil to you since you've treated me fairly.

Other than that, I just post more frequently than 'normal'.

Well that was pretty good though!

You make me bring out the big guns!

They're still kicking around.
They still basically exist, until they choose not to. So technically, even if one's clan gets plastered onto the walls in a battle, that doesn't decide the fate of the clan. It influences the decision process of those who choose to disband or not.

Therefore, it's not nececary to do the highlight/kill thing, to ensure clan survival.

Sure it helps...