State of the Bot Address

[btown]

Wouldn't using bots be a handicap?  yea I think so.  you are the one that needs the handicap.  I solo a great deal a couple wipes ago with a legend dark knight.  with that and a healer we could 2man en'gla.  bots bring NOBODY. I repeat NOBODY to the game.  the only thing botting is doing is you guys are doing it and getting punished and quitting and whining.  and you have voiced your whine somuch that the immortals are now seriously considering it.

[Super Tacoman]

Wouldn't using bots be a handicap?  yea I think so.  you are the one that needs the handicap.  I solo a great deal a couple wipes ago with a legend dark knight.  with that and a healer we could 2man en'gla.  bots bring NOBODY. I repeat NOBODY to the game.  the only thing botting is doing is you guys are doing it and getting punished and quitting and whining.  and you have voiced your whine somuch that the immortals are now seriously considering it.

my friends and i multied from day 1 of the wipe all the way up until we got bored of it about 2 months in.  we never once were punished or confronted about it.

[fulloflife]

bunch of luddites in this thread which is super ironic given this is a computer game.

Take some risks and add some innovation into this game.

The immortals ask us whether we'll play more if botting was legal, I ask back, what do you have to lose by changing the policy?

[Boots]

bunch of luddites in this thread which is super ironic given this is a computer game.

Take some risks and add some innovation into this game.

The immortals ask us whether we'll play more if botting was legal, I ask back, what do you have to lose by changing the policy?

How about losing the ability to play at all because of Mumus and Essovius's having a season pass to gangrape everybody no matter which zone they are in.

Oh yay, I have two characters now, they can both sit in the inn because of Mumu and Essovius's 2 characters.

[btown]

The only people pressing this issue is the botters themselves.  I think this thread very much brings us to a crossroad for obvious reasons so there needs to be a middle ground solution.  But to outright legalize botting, even 1 char...  smh

I suggest making strong charmies equivalent to characters with basic commands,  maybe you can purchase more skills for them.  cleric/scout/basher types who are level 30 or what not.   Bots is like a virus or the government.  they are going to destroy us

[fulloflife]

Why are people mixing botting with pk? I don't care what Mumu does. If you have a problem with trash PK- ask the immorts to remove tether, which is OP.

[Rezin]

maybe the solution like hoss said is all of us who are 30+ years old acting like we have some maturity and policing it ourselves, you say the state of the mud has people botting and acting like assholes, actually, since sob got stripped, the mud has been better than it has all wipe, maybe its cause all these people that you say are still botting can do it with some sense of being conservative...a lot of the less skilled players who got killed first and ask questions later have started trickling back into playing, and your right the mud isn't broke, the rules aren't broke, its the people and there mentality with this stomp your enemy or possible enemy into the ground and grind your heel into him so he can never play again attitude, botting hasn't ruined the mud, SOB and RGB and those type of players and shitty attitudes the mud, months after the wipe started finding out that SOB was botting the whole time, was just the straw that broke the camels back, botting or not you guys were horrible for the game...I had no idea BIA was botting...BIA didn't bother anyone, BIA kept to themselves, BIA didn't ambush every clan that can field a group more than 4 players...the mud itself isn't broke, the rules aren't broke, the mud is better now than it has ever been and its a real credit to the staff that cares and puts effort into this game, whats broken on the game can not be fixed, and its the same trash scumbag players attitude that has excisted for years, and honestly you guys did the best thing you could for the game when you quit and deleted after your gear was stripped, I think the biggest slap in the face on these forums now is how you make yourselves out to be some kind of martyr and how great you were to the game and how wonderful you were to everyone helping myth in ravenshadow and shepherding maza through cloud kingdom, maybe your entire clan wouldn't have gotten bored and quit if you actually conducted your pvp wars with some sort of honor, ive said this before, you guys chose to jump every single top tier clan ambush style mid zone, giving yourselves a big advantage each time, so after you took out wild, then took out bia, and crippling them because somehow your able to form 10 man groups 20 hours a day, well we see now why, at the beginning of the wipe during the first 2 months the first few large scale pvp battles set the tone for the rest of the wipe, if you lose one of those battles, its a serious uphill climb after that, im not saying ambushing someone is wrong altho I don't care for the tactic, but then you start in with the kill first ask questions later, and then you take it to a whole new level cause all your competition quit, anyone who is opt anon has to die, anyone with a name you don't recognize has to die, so not only have you won the game by your standards by driving off anyone who can compete with you, now your boredom with no competition anymore has you driving off people who have nothing to do with it, I had a real life friend who hasn't played in a few years decide to start back, so I give him a full ergothian set, no rings, 10 piece, by level 11 he was killed, no questions answered, no gear returned, not a 2nd thought to maybe hes not one of our enemies, not because you feel threatened but because you are BORED

and sorry but giving these people the ability to log more than 1 character at a time just does not seem like the solution, because its the same people who start the conflicts every single wipe, this is just gonna add more to there arsenal, and the few people who like to be neutral and just enjoy themselves and their human friends that actually think this botting idea is good, how much faster is this group gonna get bored if this rule goes into affect, ok ive soloed cyan with my 10 jmc windows, what now, lets go kill myth, its a pvp mud, if they don't like it go play world of warcraft

sorry but that 5 man group of myth neutrals adds more character to this game than you having 1 actual character and 9 fake characters on the who list, id rather play with a 20-30 playerbase any day of the week than that bullshit

[Aemon]

I grouped with you and your bot crew. remember what you told me?
"Three rules. 1) dont talk. 2) no charmies, and 3) don't slow down the group.

by the end of lunitari I could tell without a shadow of a doubt that you were using scripts.  Ithanked you for the group and left.

Did we have any interaction during that 10 minutes? None. 

I actually do remember saying that. I don't remember your char name. What was it? Even when I played 1 char, those were my rules, perhaps not as explicitly stated. The only scenario where I group a random non-SoB is because you shouted for a group and I told you to sleep and summoned you in. You preferred to group over soloing so I grouped you and now you complain I didn't offer you companionship? Maybe you should ditch Arctic for eHarmony.

I was doing Luni with or without you. If I've already solved Luni, am I supposed to pretend every riddle is new and re-read every RDESC?

I'm sorry if being curt or not talking to you somehow diminished your sense of self-worth. I apologize for that. If I was doing Luni in a rushed manner, it was because I was tired of spamming ToT/Irda/Lunitari/Silvi to pop tomes for Rhonda to get it legend. I didn't realize you were so sensitive, but it does reaffirm that my carebear characterization is not misplaced.

[kilians]

I won't play at all if botting is allowed and if it is I will come back after the game is reverted back to its original state I can't believe imm's are even considering this nonsense bullshit stop crying about wanting to bot get on make friends don't be a douche bag and the player base will rise it has since u got rid of the trash so I don't see what the problem is bapting whiners

[Aemon]

, months after the wipe started finding out that SOB was botting the whole time, was just the straw that broke the camels back, botting or not you guys were horrible for the game...I had no idea BIA was botting...BIA didn't bother anyone, BIA kept to themselves, BIA didn't ambush every clan that can field a group more than 4 players...

There is so much inaccuracy and misconception in your post. Clearly you have been victimized repeatedly by pk and bots are the easy scapegoat.

SoB didn't bot for the first two months and already won all meaningful clan fights up until that point. No bots was actually a directive from the clan leader at the time.

In fact the only time SoB lost in a pk was when bots were used (against dele/BiA) in Lunitari. That's more a function of me forgetting a few settings and as well a Russian and I forgetting to spellup with cloak of bravery. dele had 3 bots that fight fyi.

I never actively hunted anyone beyond dele/BiA. If Maza and Myth hid in their stronghold or inn while I was zoning, that's their own fault. I never was triggered on them or hunted them. I even told Maza as such. I have no responsibility for their paranoia or cowardice. I saw a post in another thread with respect to pk stats, and my bot crew was not in there except for Moinier. I distinctly remember one time a Myth crossed paths with my bot crew near Northern Reach and got caught by Moinier's volley and died. I subsequently returned all his gear. So even that kill tally is a bit of a misrepresentation. Could I have run the gamut and killed Maza and Myth repeatedly? Yes, but there's no sport in that, only dele and BiA offered any challenge. So yes, I did self-police myself.

Fact of the matter is, aggressive players like Mumu and Essovius are going to pk no matter what, botting or no botting. Somehow people like to blame my bot crew, but it's completely unrelated.

On a related note, currently on Arctic:

Total visible people : 10

[snax]

some zone tweaking would be needed to make sure that some of the top tier zones still required real people

Arctic zones don't need any tweak. That's the natural knee-jerk reaction, but it's the wrong one. Arctic zones are plenty challenging as is. I cannot tell you how many unrecoverable mass rips I've had of 8+ chars at once during the initial development with my first bot crew of Monika, Domahnugnuts and as well this wipe with Aemon, Yhonk, and co.

It is nice and not nice...because then you become to caretaker of everyone's decays. I actually did have to spam quali for a number of clannie decays. But again, you're not factoring in, the 200+ hours of scripting and coding needed as well to get you to a point where you can actually do that.
[/quote]

Yeah some do.  You're just not quite at my level (not flaming you so don't retaliate)....there are ranks, load maxes, and considerations to be had.  If every single person could run with 9 bots, how shitty do you think ranking and the game would become?  (again, not flaming)...some zones would NEED tweaking to maintain balance.  Case in point:  deep mines has i think about 29 rank mobs, but if you're allowing botting, all the sudden you need to consider balancing high high zones as well as low low zones so that people could potentially rank.  Anyways, thanks for the response, but trust me there will be a need for zone tweaking.   I absolutely HATE celestial temple, but could you imagine how hard it would be to get the about/neck/caliburn/etc if changes occur allowing 1-3 people to steamroll the zone day 1 of next wipe?  k, thx, shit wifey woke up, bai!

regarding you spamming qualinesti I put in over 100 hours in fc this wipe before I quit, and i imagine my total tally is over 500 hours for the last 2-3 wipes, so your spamming for a clanny is all the more reason why there will be needing some tweaks to the easier zones. 

I didn't go into a long diatribe about the zones I do yet, but here's the jist.  I get 1 person to anchor zones that repop, then I cycle through 3-5 alts for specific fights while the anchor cycles as needed.  And by anchor I am referring to anyone anyclass who can hold a zone from repopping while me/them switch alts for individual fights.

Case in point.  I actually soloed nightfall 2 wipes ago.  And I'm sure you know what an absolute pain in the ass that zone is to 1) trigger repops 2) utilize a fresh pop to switch chars around, 3) to do the zone with 1 man without botting/multying.

[Rezin]

I hear ya that must be my misconception, or maybe your lack to view things in someone elses shoes, so you offered myth and maza peace with no strings attached?  I must have been off that day, how is it you manage to nail yourself to a cross like that, once you get the first arm nailed down its gotta be difficult but you really pull it off...and being that mumu pked with your clan members in his group, and maza was told, if mumu decides to attack someone we will help, just try not to cross our paths...that's your idea of being gracious with peace?  that's your idea of not being associated with them?  demanding ridiculous shit from these sportless neutral clans is how you offer to let them get out of the cross fire?  and even if they did fulfill your demands, you make it absolutely clear that none of it goes for mumu, and you will still hunt with him if asked, jeez your right...come on guys get off his case, we were just being whiny carebears, FREE AEMON BRING BACK SOB, the mud has lost so much character and integrity since that that group of scholars and gentlemen has left, things are just terrible without them

[Hoodoo]

Aemon:

I would rather inn-sit or solo the same old crap, over and over and over, than group with someone who breaks the rules of the game I enjoy.  That's why, after 1 group with you in Ravenshadow (Siobhain, I *think*), I recalled and attempted to find an Immortal who cared.  Not sure I was successful, think I only found a disinterested 32 or something: to be honest, I should have tried harder.  I did submit a bug note with your character's names, I'm pretty sure, after half the group pardoned me without a single prompt between the stacked pardons. 

Botting being legal or illegal will not affect the amount that I play, but it might affect when I quit.  Mostly, I agree with the wisest and Greekest of us, Nostramazos, in regards to his opinion of 'Fix pk *first*, fix botting second.'   His analysis of the types of players which exist on the mud is spot on.  It's the old 90/10 rule oft quoted by my schoolteachers: "You spend 90% of your time dealing with 10% of your students."  The antisocial mindsets of 3-5 people (I really don't place the number much higher... the bandwagon asshats will revert to normal after their role models leave) have caused this problem.  The antisocial mindset which says "I'll pk you until you quit, and then I won!  Where is everybody???"... that's the issue here.  We've all heard certain people say a variation of that very same quoted sentence (sometimes in Runglish).  These people took their zero-sum game theory of Arctic, discovered that cheating helps you win if the other guys are actually honest, and ruined entire wipes for everyone else.

I read the idea "Allow 2 characters, and then bring down the hammer of DOOM! upon anyone who cheats with little to no mercy."  I love this idea.  Honestly, I love this idea if we stick to one player, one character.  When everyone who plays with a player *knows* the player is cheating, including multiple players of 31+s, and the player is allowed continued use and ownership of cheated characters, it becomes abundantly clear that cheating is tacitly accepted.  This was the situation for the last few wipes (3-4 at least. I think the Daniel incident was 4-5 wipes ago, and that's the first big botting brouhaha I remember.)   If we don't start enforcing the rules we have,  why bother making new ones? To this end... Hoss, thanks for giving a shit.

Jason

[Shesh]

Ok, let's sum it up. The lipmans and btowns of this world, unable to cope with Mumu's inner flame, started beating the botting tantrum on the forums. Hoss got played.
Is anyone surprised? The answer is greeks. The guys who invented democracy and demagogy, and just recently leeched some $30bln from zee germans.

[Basher]

My read is this: botting and pk are two different if slightly related issues.

So far, the listed advantages of botting are:

- People can log and play without groups
- People can explore bigger zones and speed up the catch-up time for new or casual players to become competitive. It does not however solve the problem of cheat zones with specially obscurified secrets that are unknowable unless you have been told them.

You would think that the above would actually solve the problem of the casual player, the new players, the weak clans etc and make life more pleasant for them so they should be onboard with botting under the small pbase scenario.

However the above solution does not solve the problem of PK and actually creates new ones.

Technically, botting is an irrelevant distraction to the argument of getting people to zone easier. As someone has noted you could just overpower the classes/players and make even cyan soloable, through smarter and auto-bot charmies/pets, scrolls, buffs or what not to tackle the issue of too few players to zone. Legend is one step, more tweaks or multi-classing features etc. can solve the angle of being able to hit the big zones with smaller groups as an alternative to allowing bots as well. Being unable to charm clerics or more interesting mobs can be reversed etc. A good means to disallow this from being abused would be to make all pets "group members" to prevent the destruction of zone balance to hordes of pets/charmies. A charmie could also be smartened upto "bot" level.

The ones making the case for bots are making the case for a better playing experience for the casual player.

The ones who appear to squawking anti-bots are really only squawking about being pk'd and how that was ruining the mud for them whereas the record shows that this was primarily the attitude of players who were actually NOT botting. i.e. Essovius/Mumu the bot pk's combo's such Lulu/Kip etc. or reed.

The problem with asshole players has also been a feature of Arctic, from the classic shriners, RGB, finns, bsp, SoB whatever and really there should be no requirement for such players to be nice or play nice to suit others playerstyles either. They make the game interesting as well, but also means any tweaks to make the game more a more pleasant PvE experience would also similary empower assholes to be bigger assholes in the PvP aspect.

What is truly broken is the PK aspect:

The root cause of the whole is the idea of a unique Super character:

This is the root of pk dynamic and that has hit the spiral that leads to the death of this game. Get rid of game changing gear like nobashes, get rid of game changing spells hidden in zones that can only be done with that kind of gear and you will have a very fluid pk situation or even get rid of gear limits totally. This means anyone knocked down can easily recover and return to the game compettively. It means less people having to sit and hide in inn or roll lame trash chars and hide in weak clans like Maza and Myth who turn myopic to the reprecrussions due to greed for leaders or skilled players to fill their their groups.

- IF there is limited gear game changing gear, there WILL be battle to acquire it.
- Once it is acquired it's power WILL be wielded to prevent its loss.
- Since the opposition cannot compete fairly against game changing gear/spells they WILL turn trashy or cheat.
- Once the opposition turns trashy, the game will spiral downwards socially with whiners and petty angry people like nate.

Daniel - trash pk. The moment you kill and strip your opponents of eq they automatically become trash when they try to get it back because they have none. Atleast until they take it off you and then you become trash. If Myth tries to PK SoB it is automatically trash PK because they only have junk relative to SoB and because this wipe SoB had most of the limited gear, technically any group they come up against that did not have equivalent gear is trash, i.e. everyone else. Hell even nightmaring mages are called trash because they do not have a dragonorb like the opposition group.

Everyone says SoB is the problem, but thats not it. They are forced to resort to their method because if they don't the "trash" Wild/dele/BiA will steal their shinies. If these, the "real shitty chars" would stop sneaking around and trying infiltrate neutral groups with the eventual goal of powering up chars to sneak attack SoB instead of straight up, if Wild/dele/BiA/the whole MUD actually let SoB monoplize all the super gear they wanted and shut their traps, humbly bowing and scraping the floor then there would be no problem at all actually.

To stay relevant the paradigm needs to change, if you address the symptoms and not the causes then it is only a bandage until the next evolution of the issue.

Some possible ideas are - get rid of the idea of ambushes, make all clanned chars automatically non-aggro to other clanned chars, Force wars to be declared by warning, allow challenges to force eq in rent out into contention etc. etc. we might have to create a clan war system here to handle this