Reincarnate and ability points

[George]

I have to say reincarnation is a bit odd to me.

Consistent equipment nerfs over the past few years to try and tackle the "power bloat" have been the bane of players existence. Nerfing the shinies sucks and is demoralizing. As a side note, the newest zones are the worst. Nerfing old content to create space for even more OP gear isn't balance, it's creator bias.

In parallel, a system was created that provides an easily accessible path to power bloat that requires nothing other than conceding a large portion of ones life.

The two thoughts are completely opposed.

Further, to echo some other posts, has made +stat gear dumpster quality. This has further devalued many old items and has led to only a subset of equipment being valuable , which is perpetually maxed.

There's some real issues which need to be addressed.

I think the main reason for this seeming conflict of interest is the driving force behind these systems are/were not the same people. Adepali has long been an advocate of removing item decay, item limits, rent costs, and other little things that make the "competition" for item sets a thing of the past, and from what I understand, attunement was/is Adepali's project. Look at the qualities of it: No rent, no decay, no limit to how many can exist, you don't even lose them in a dt or deadbeat! The majority of the playerbase seems to enjoy them, they promote exploration, and now that you can raise them while in a group, they're no longer a solo project. I haven't seen any complaints about how they're not unique, or you didn't have to solve a huge quest line in order to gain access to them. They're simply a great item that has allowed many players to get the power to do more than they could do before. The main cost is time, but... That's what games are for. If you are willing to put in the time and effort, you get the reward. It's a way better system than putting in the time and effort and getting nothing because every good item out of the zone you're exploring is already maxxed, so all you did was risk your equipment, and likely lose a ton of exp in the process.

[Jorquin]

Fair points.

[el conquistador]

I think the main reason for this seeming conflict of interest is the driving force behind these systems are/were not the same people. Adepali has long been an advocate of removing item decay, item limits, rent costs, and other little things that make the "competition" for item sets a thing of the past, and from what I understand, attunement was/is Adepali's project. Look at the qualities of it: No rent, no decay, no limit to how many can exist, you don't even lose them in a dt or deadbeat! The majority of the playerbase seems to enjoy them, they promote exploration, and now that you can raise them while in a group, they're no longer a solo project. I haven't seen any complaints about how they're not unique, or you didn't have to solve a huge quest line in order to gain access to them. They're simply a great item that has allowed many players to get the power to do more than they could do before. The main cost is time, but... That's what games are for. If you are willing to put in the time and effort, you get the reward. It's a way better system than putting in the time and effort and getting nothing because every good item out of the zone you're exploring is already maxxed, so all you did was risk your equipment, and likely lose a ton of exp in the process.

thats why adepali is the best!  ive been pretty much in full agreement with everything he has ever put forward

i believe he was also the main force behind lowering the skill grind requirements for many of the more painful skills to superb.  the guy knows how to make the game more enjoyable for the average player.

[Gnua]

Is there no feel of burnout for 6 reincarnates from others? It takes its toll on my soul.

"Grind a useless character to R6.  Legend.  Play for an OP character for a week. Quit"  seems to be the way a lot of my clannies have gone.  It also has seemed to further fractured the players base into groups that cant help eachother because of differing level/alignment. Medal grinding does not seem to interfere with grouping nearly as much as reincarnate grinding obstructs grouping.

[Caine]

Great discussions. I read some of the posts and personally I really liked Lloth's idea. I had actually suggested increasing the rank cap as an alternative to reincarnation before it was added, but it seemed not to gain much traction.

Currently, if you reincarnate all 6 times, you end up with the following benefits:
12 ranks
12 stat points
-6 saving spell
30-90 hit points
120 movement points

You also get the opportunity to change race a limited number of times throughout the process.

The entire process takes about 1.6 billion XP, perhaps less since you don't actually need to reach 1X per se, but let's skim that for now.

---

So I was thinking, if grinding XP to increase character power is the goal here, then maybe the following system could work:

Remove reincarnation, and replace it with a system where you can earn extra RP by gaining XP past the limit (beyond 1X). I'm thinking up to a maximum of 50 rank points, raising the effective rank limit to 100. (If you die, then you'd need to reach 1X to start earning that XP past the cap again.)

I'd say every 100 million XP or so you would gain an additional rank point. So you would need to gain 5 billion extra experience to hit the cap. It sounds like a lot, given that reincarnation 6 only takes 1.6 billion XP, but given that the rank cap would be increasing so much (to 100), I'd want it to be a lot, i.e. I don't want someone farming all 50 XP ranks in just 1 week. Additionally, you'll be level 30 throughout and simultaneously also gaining normal rank %, so you'd actually be gaining ranks faster than normal anyway.

Test and raise/lower the xp value per rank point as needed. Some things that would probably need to be considered:
 - How diminishing XP returns would work, or XP limits per mob (I imagine getting double XP at level 30 would move this SUPER fast for more knowledgeable players)
 - What the rank cap should be (100 is just my example thought)
 - Rank costs and rank purchase limits - may need some adjustment or restrictions.

I do concede that 100 rank points is a lofty maximum and makes options like legend + 2x damage shields + haste theoretically obtainable. So it would take some balance testing no doubt to find a good level of XP that makes the "xp cap" not obtainable too quickly, or restrictions on ranks such as certain ones being mutually exclusive with others.

Using 100 million per rank point as an example, then after about 1.2 billion XP you'd have gained 12 ranks, similar (RP wise) to the amount gained in reincarnation (~1.3 billion xp, 12 RP). XP does come faster, as you are level 30 throughout, but you lose out on the extra stuff (stat points/hp) that reincarnation would have provided. Another downside is that you can't change race through this system, so there might have to be provisions brainstormed for that somewhere.

A second side effect of this would be that depending on how the rank purchase limits are altered, this could make +stat gear more viable as well. In the current reincarnation system I can innately pump a stat by up to 12 points and then on top of that buy an additional 5 with ranks. In the new system, you wouldn't be able to pump your stats so high for free, and instead you'd have to spend those RP you gained on buying the stats, else start using +stat gear again.

Finally you'd also be able to work on XP when you felt like it without fear of losing out on grouping opportunities. If other people want to group for a high zone, or maybe also if a spell comes up for sale and you just reincarnated and tough luck in the current system, in the new system you wouldn't have that problem.

Thoughts welcomed.

[corey]

Great discussions. I read some of the posts and personally I really liked Lloth's idea. I had actually suggested increasing the rank cap as an alternative to reincarnation before it was added, but it seemed not to gain much traction.

Currently, if you reincarnate all 6 times, you end up with the following benefits:
12 ranks
12 stat points
-6 saving spell
30-90 hit points
120 movement points

You also get the opportunity to change race a limited number of times throughout the process.

The entire process takes about 1.6 billion XP, perhaps less since you don't actually need to reach 1X per se, but let's skim that for now.

---

So I was thinking, if grinding XP to increase character power is the goal here, then maybe the following system could work:

Remove reincarnation, and replace it with a system where you can earn extra RP by gaining XP past the limit (beyond 1X). I'm thinking up to a maximum of 50 rank points, raising the effective rank limit to 100. (If you die, then you'd need to reach 1X to start earning that XP past the cap again.)

I'd say every 100 million XP or so you would gain an additional rank point. So you would need to gain 5 billion extra experience to hit the cap. It sounds like a lot, given that reincarnation 6 only takes 1.6 billion XP, but given that the rank cap would be increasing so much (to 100), I'd want it to be a lot, i.e. I don't want someone farming all 50 XP ranks in just 1 week. Additionally, you'll be level 30 throughout and simultaneously also gaining normal rank %, so you'd actually be gaining ranks faster than normal anyway.

Test and raise/lower the xp value per rank point as needed. Some things that would probably need to be considered:
 - How diminishing XP returns would work, or XP limits per mob (I imagine getting double XP at level 30 would move this SUPER fast for more knowledgeable players)
 - What the rank cap should be (100 is just my example thought)
 - Rank costs and rank purchase limits - may need some adjustment or restrictions.

I do concede that 100 rank points is a lofty maximum and makes options like legend + 2x damage shields + haste theoretically obtainable. So it would take some balance testing no doubt to find a good level of XP that makes the "xp cap" not obtainable too quickly, or restrictions on ranks such as certain ones being mutually exclusive with others.

Using 100 million per rank point as an example, then after about 1.2 billion XP you'd have gained 12 ranks, similar (RP wise) to the amount gained in reincarnation (~1.3 billion xp, 12 RP). XP does come faster, as you are level 30 throughout, but you lose out on the extra stuff (stat points/hp) that reincarnation would have provided. Another downside is that you can't change race through this system, so there might have to be provisions brainstormed for that somewhere.

A second side effect of this would be that depending on how the rank purchase limits are altered, this could make +stat gear more viable as well. In the current reincarnation system I can innately pump a stat by up to 12 points and then on top of that buy an additional 5 with ranks. In the new system, you wouldn't be able to pump your stats so high for free, and instead you'd have to spend those RP you gained on buying the stats, else start using +stat gear again.

Finally you'd also be able to work on XP when you felt like it without fear of losing out on grouping opportunities. If other people want to group for a high zone, or maybe also if a spell comes up for sale and you just reincarnated and tough luck in the current system, in the new system you wouldn't have that problem.

Thoughts welcomed.

I find this interesting to a degree, but may also have detrimental or beneficial side-effects, depending on which side of the coin you fall.

For example:
- Reincarnations reset exp caps on all mobs. Exp cap would need to be removed or some sort of reset would need to be introduced.
- I will be exping exclusively and consistently in 3-4 zones. I will not hesitate to take these from you and chase you away. Some people won't like that.

[mikey]

I love the reincarnation system! Slaughtering pigmies or kalaman recruits more than once a wipe is great!

I don't have much to add the the conversation, but I hope the staff knows that not everyone wants to alter/trash it.  Being able to play a second character and reincarnation have definitely been the biggest factors in my increased playtime.

[Lloth]

The reason I suggested this in the first place was to get away from exactly what you want, Corey. It's absolutely mind numbingly boring to spam the same 3-4 zones over and over again. The point I wanted to make was regardless if the ranks suck in a zone, you are still getting exp which in turn gives ranks, eventually. Like I said when I first suggested it, once you meet the requirements for that extra ranks via exp, the alignment penalty should be removed OR make everyone get the same exp as what a neutral would. But if you want to spam theiwer, drac tower and PI/mortigoth you certainly can. But it would just get more people to run zones "just because" instead of checking the mob ranks or doing only mid-high "exp zones"

[gulca]

If you want zones to be done equally, just make an incentive to do them.

Put in like a weekly circuit where you are required to visit a string of zones to get bonus rank points.

Each week have like 6 different sets of circuit, 2 low lvls, 2 mids and 2 high lvls. Each set consist of 3-5 zones.

With different combinations each week, im sure it will motivate all players to learn all the zones that are selected.

People will always want to do what is most efficient. If 3 zones are giving me the best xp/time, why would i bother with other zones?

[Lloth]

Because those zones don't have the potential to load something useful. That's the point, I think a LOT of gear should be turned to no locate and people just do zones and maybe get rewarded with an item and if not, they got some exp.

[gulca]

Because those zones don't have the potential to load something useful. That's the point, I think a LOT of gear should be turned to no locate and people just do zones and maybe get rewarded with an item and if not, they got some exp.

Yes i understand your point. Exp exchanging for rank point isn’t going to work as corey pointed out. And i agree with him since most players want to minimize or maximize their play time.

It is nice to do any zones for xp that can eventually be exchange for ranks. But water tends to flow with gravity and you will still not solve the problem. They will xp the most efficient way and spam the few most xp efficient zones in exchange for your proposed rank exchange.

If you want players to have more choices in terms of zone variations, you need to tackle that head on. No one is going to do zones with low ranks. No one is going to do zones that dont load eq. No one is going to do zones that are relatively low on xps.

Since no one wants to revamp xp on mobs, or change eq load, or rank points, you won’t shake the current play styles.

My suggestion is one way of forcing players to go to different zones. Imagine them as weekly quest. Go do these 3 zones and you earn some respectable ranks. You have 1 week to do it. Next week, another 3 different sets of zones. If you miss out, its ok. If you cant complete it, its ok. Learn the zone now and wait for the next time it pop up as the weekly quest. Im sure given the 100% return of time spent for ranks, players of any level will find themselves completing the said quests.

Would you want to waste 1hr checking zones for almost no returns or go run the weekly quest that guarantees you some amount of ranks? Of course these weekly quest are good for one time reward for that week. At least you know what you are getting at the end and not have to roll some dice hoping ranks are fresh, eq might pop and or xps are not maxed.

[Caine]

Exp exchanging for rank point isn’t going to work

With a top-heavy XP system where you remain at level 30, I agree we would probably just see high level zones spammed for efficiency rather than the spread that naturally comes with having to reset to a low level. But under the surface, isn't this exactly what reincarnation is too though? Just grinding XP for more power? Especially at higher reincarnations where you spend so much time in the 27-30 range. I'd imagine people are in high zones a lot of the time there too.

As far as the less visited zones. Medals were a good attempt at this, but unfortunately because you get such little affinity from doing them in comparison to higher level targets they still don't get done. Maybe if making players explore middling zones is the idea, then a quest style system for rank points might work? Maybe like a zone mastery system? Each zone could have a quest or two associated with it where completing it gives you a flat amount of rank percentage. They'd all be one time only completions (per character) so for each character you wanted to max out the rank on, you would have to visit every zone and do the associated quests there.

For example. You could put an interactable object in each zone (with descriptions signifying they are part of this system and not for use elsewhere) and doing some kw with it gives you a flat amount of percentage. This would be tracked separately from the normal rank% of course. It could be obvious or not, maybe more difficult ones requiring a keyword/quest to uncover. If we didn't want an entire group getting credit for a single run (or gaining ranks too quickly this way) then you could make the kw not work after the first use, or have a cooldown between turn-ins; a short-ish cooldown would probably be best because low zones are easily sped through. There could be a vendor or a list mob somewhere that tells you what you've already done. "Inspect one of King Phoenix's spears"... "Find Tony's long lost beard"... etc. It'd be fun for sure, but probably a nightmare to implement.

Just another crazy idea.

[Lloth]

So I go do my 3 quest zones in 2 hours, now I'm essentially done for the week. Like Caine said, reincarnation is already just spamming exp zones. I don't think it's a problem at all. You can literally just do zones and get exp and maybe some loads. If people want the path of least resistance and spam kagonesti hinterlands til their eyes bleed, hey good for them. The rest of the mud can do other zones.  I don't give a shit about getting the highest ranks, but it would be nice to "passively" gain ranks by just playing the game.


Or we scrap all this talk, keep reincarnation in and lower the overall benefits. 1 stat per, no svs, minor hp gains. The benefit of being higher rank but still gaining rank exp at the 'lower' rank you had is good enough.

I just wanted a reason to do zones again. I can do 10 zones right now and still not rank on my thief who is only tank 30.

[Malthros]

So I go do my 3 quest zones in 2 hours, now I'm essentially done for the week. Like Caine said, reincarnation is already just spamming exp zones. I don't think it's a problem at all. You can literally just do zones and get exp and maybe some loads. If people want the path of least resistance and spam kagonesti hinterlands til their eyes bleed, hey good for them. The rest of the mud can do other zones.  I don't give a shit about getting the highest ranks, but it would be nice to "passively" gain ranks by just playing the game.


Or we scrap all this talk, keep reincarnation in and lower the overall benefits. 1 stat per, no svs, minor hp gains. The benefit of being higher rank but still gaining rank exp at the 'lower' rank you had is good enough.

I just wanted a reason to do zones again. I can do 10 zones right now and still not rank on my thief who is only tank 30.

And if your thief dies a single time they can lose anywhere from almost nothing to more rank xp than you got from most/all of those 10 zones. :/

[gulca]

So I go do my 3 quest zones in 2 hours, now I'm essentially done for the week. Like Caine said, reincarnation is already just spamming exp zones. I don't think it's a problem at all. You can literally just do zones and get exp and maybe some loads. If people want the path of least resistance and spam kagonesti hinterlands til their eyes bleed, hey good for them. The rest of the mud can do other zones.  I don't give a shit about getting the highest ranks, but it would be nice to "passively" gain ranks by just playing the game.

I just wanted a reason to do zones again. I can do 10 zones right now and still not rank on my thief who is only tank 30.

I dont see a conflict with the two co existing. Mine gives everyone a reason to learn and do zones of the week and get bonus rank for as little as 2 hrs. Yours is more of a base foundation that solves the problem where people want to explore different zones and still get rank benefits.