Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Aristox on November 19, 2018, 10:58:17 AM

Title: Clerics?
Post by: Aristox on November 19, 2018, 10:58:17 AM
Tell me what you like and dislike about clerics.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on November 19, 2018, 11:05:05 AM
It's my impression that if Clerics are the premier healing class why does almost no one play them? 

Lack of spells? Or too difficult to get the spells to Legend (a theme I've heard more than once). Druids and Shamans have much more to offer in terms of utility.

Maybe some more fun spells?

Mages also don't get seen much in groups and probably could use some balancing.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kadaj on November 19, 2018, 11:29:38 AM
I think the biggest problems with clerics are the one dimensional gameplay.

Leveling --
     While leveling, they basically can blind an enemy, hold an enemy and cure someone. Their mem and spell damage does not allow them to be efficient casters like druids and mages and they have no in combat skills besides turn. So they basically do one of the 3 mentioned things and then assist.

Grouping --
     With the addition to shamans and the revamp to druids, I would imagine a clerics life is absolutely boring. Healers are now only required for a handful of fights. Their buffs are nice, but only at legendary. The DO bring a lot with animate dead, only once the cleric is legend. Again they have little to do, no combat skills, no offensive spells that are useful to cast. You pretty much make your corpses assist and afk if there's a druid/shaman in the group.

I think a good way to increase the effectiveness of clerics would be to add some more combat skills and allow them to cast without losing their combat round, like paladins and DKs.

Smite could be a similar skill like strike but perhaps have some affects like an ocean scouts zap(short term blind/hold/silence).
Having a spell that they can cast in a lower slot that does decent damage and then allows the cleric to smite them to add bonuses to the hits.(longer hold/silence/blind/para)
Perhaps adding a spell that makes the target become immune vorpal for a short period while having a long CD would be beneficial on some fights.

The cleric is the center piece of a group, one that brings it together and ensures the groups success...if it was still the year 1998. The clerics are just an archaic class that desperately needs a look at. Right now unless you're doing something crazy for a fight, there really isn't a need for one.

I do love the idea of battle clerics, wielding big ass 2 handers, wearing + damage that also increases their spell damage and just going shoulder to shoulder with their melee group mates.

These are just some of the ideas off the top of my head. I have a level 30 cleric this wipe, which was the first in about 10 years and I got so bored I rerolled to a druid and haven't looked back.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: el conquistador on November 19, 2018, 11:32:37 AM
it feels really good when you heal a tough fight and make the right decision every round and keep your team alive. 

then there is the other 99.9% of arctic when you are just following the group around doing basically nothing.  maybe throwing 1 heal every 2 or 3 minutes until you get to a fight where you are actually needed.

i think it would be fun if they got a couple of combat skills.  maybe some kind of weak area attack similar to assail or like a chance for a little stun like zap

Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Chase on November 19, 2018, 11:55:19 AM
This is the 2nd wipe I ever play a cleric and I just legend my cleric today, I'll try to summarize what I like and dislike about my cleric experience.

1) Spell loads: Loading spells for my cleric wasn't so hard except for legend spells like animate and circle which require a big group full of bashers to dominate Soth, however I tend to find it easier to spell up a druid or a mage for example.
Generally speaking it's easier to spellup other casters than clerics because their high end spells load on specific tough mobs that require a special group combination of char classes to win, while that's not the case for most top spells for other casters.

2) Healing in group: I healed most of the wipe since it started until clan shamans started having 6+ regen then I felt kinda useless, if I group with 1-2 healing wave shaman then I'm totally useless even in some high zones since I don't heal at all even on end fights.

Maybe if we give clerics more damage spells like a mage/druid or more combat skills like Paladins they'd be fun to play, but unless the fight is super hard I'm hardly needed in a group.

3) Heal quest: Heal quest is overall a good one but the load % sucks I had to run heal quest 7 times to get heal and I know others who ran it around the same number of times if not more to get heal.

4) Pre-Legend Clerics: They're super boring to play, I totally ignored my cleric and just ran around with my basher leveling it up and use cleric to cure up until level 25 where I just grouped for high zones and healed until clan started having good shamans.

5) Legend clerics: Even thou I've only been legend today I can see the potential of a legend cleric between mass crit, animate corpses and rapture, I believe legend clerics are very well balanced and they become very buff and allows them to be critical in groups as much as a legend shaman but again it could get boring to just order corpses to assist all the time and sit tight watching the group kill mobs and hardly needing a heal until a major fight comes where I have to watch group and keep everyone alive.

The only disappointment I have is from healing mist, the spell is totally useless the healing done is a joke compared to healing wave or healing cloud and theoretically clerics should be the top healing class. Even legend healing mist is useless I have to stack 2-3 of them just get decent healing done to group.

Overall from my experience shamans and druids are easier to level and spell-up their chars and more fun to play compared to clerics.

But once a cleric is legend I believe he's as good as either in a group and  but again not as fun to play.

My recommendations would be to maybe try and make cleric top spells load on more mobs (if not on easier ones like the change done to druids this wipe) give them more damage spells or skills and to diffidently buff-up healing mist spell.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Heo on November 19, 2018, 12:05:23 PM
I played a healer last wipe in a clan.

I've always enjoyed playing healers because a good healer can make more difference than any other character, and I setup a really sophisticated client setup to make sure I could respond extremely quickly to anything that happened in a big fight.

But playing a cleric was miserably boring, half the time I'd just be watching netflix on my other monitor because I didn't need to do anything the entire zone until MAYBE the last fight, I was just an insurance policy.

Why?

Because druids and shamans took over the role of clerics and made them pretty much useless.

Druids have stoneskin but even more significantly, healing cloud.  Legend healing cloud would keep the group cured FAR better than healing mist, so what's the point?  Nobody would get down to bad or v bad, so I wouldn't have to do anything on that front.

Then you have shamans - they have regen and healing wave.  All of these hit before a player gets down to bad/v.bad as well, so no heals from me.


Spelling up my cleric was not the issue (though it was at times annoying), the issue was that clerics are supposed to be the glue that holds a group together with buffs/debuffs/healing.  Instead, secondary healing classes have made them almost completely obsolete.  So why bother playing a char that doesn't cast a spell the entire zone?

How to change this?

Honestly, either buff up clerics or debuff shaman and druid healing.  I'm sure that's an unpopular viewpoint since everyone always wants to see classes get more power, but that's what happened and why clerics are almost completely irrelevant and unnecessary in groups.  Why bother with a cleric when druids and shamans can do more offensively?

Plus, life is safer with a shaman or druid - groupmates never get down to bad/v.bad/awful, so a slow reaction or lost conc has less impact.

But basically, buffing shaman and druid healing spells so much made them better healers than the primary healing class.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Dagda on November 19, 2018, 12:46:58 PM
For the power of the spell, the shaman quest for regenerate is much easier than the heal quest. Very little chance of death unless you do something pretty dumb. Whereas (and maybe I'm doing it badly) the cleric quest if you get a bad timing on something sneaking in, you're one stabbed if they get through protections (which seems to happen a lot).

Cleric need some sort of combat advantage over druids/shamans to make them worthwhile. A group instantaneous heal maybe (before legend)? Mass Cure Serious/Improve to Critical on Legend?
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on November 19, 2018, 01:42:54 PM
Tell me what you like and dislike about clerics.

Like: they are great early wipe and are the glue that keeps a group viable.  word summon cloak gust are great spells and no other guild has all 4.  i hear legend animate, rapture, ameliorate, legend heal, legend steelskin is great.  i wouldnt know, i've never had a legendary cleric.

Dislike: very hard to spellup compared to other casters.  our clan had two legendary exotic shammies and two legendary druids (making non-legend clerics pretty much irrelevant) before our wipe day clerics started getting spells like circle and animate.  when asked to rent bots to make room for real people, people (myself included) would rent the cleric (because we were not expecting to legend it) and keep the non-cleric.  groups could then fall apart because the cleric rented.

I think the dragonlance books pretty much sum up the role of a cleric:

“You have served my purpose, Revered Daughter,” Raistlin said, his voice as smooth
and cold as the silver blade of the dagger he wore at his wrist. “Time presses. Even now
come those to the Portal at Palanthas who will try to stop me. I must challenge the
Queen, fight my final battle with her minions. Then, when I have won, I must return to
the Portal and enter it before anyone has a chance to stop me.”

“Raistlin, don’t leave me! Please don’t leave me alone in the darkness!”

Leaning upon the Staff of Magius, which now gleamed with a bright, radiant light,
Raistlin rose to his feet. “Farewell, Revered Daughter,” he said in a soft, hissing
whisper. “I need you no longer.”
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Malaki on November 19, 2018, 06:12:37 PM
After your fully spelled and got some nice ranks and maybe some gear, so your rolling 10+heals, meming in single tics and have over 550 hp steelskinning, etc - Love them for single person dps and exploring, but i roll my clerics like tanks.

Hate:
Fully spelling up such a damn pain, and thats when you have multiple clans of people helping try to spell you up.
Grindy, and for the value unless your brute forcing a fight which you have to single or double heal each round for a few minutes straight.  You can probably just roll with a shamy / druid in the group.
Did i mention Grindy, and also its a one sided role focused on healing for the most part. when compared to the full spell list.
Its hard to resist fully scripting / triggering / aliasing your way through this roile, cause spamming group every round, and scanning and doing math on the massacre per groupmate vs obliterate and their max health and who needs a heal first vs when your lagged, vs primary heal and 2ndary or tank heal vs group heal.

Would be nice if:
There was some variation over direct instant healing, and healing over time.
The output / there was some command to run to help track in real time your groups HP's and debuffs etc.
Every spell you study, is a chance at something you dont have, no more recognize or nn.  This is so aggravating especially at higher lvl spells.
Adopt a WoW style of spells and types of clerics, or atleast look at the mechanics and setup on how they do it.  Not quite like magic users and the different robes, but maybe something along the lines of hey DPS cleric, Healing Cleric, PVP cleric.
Condense down all the spells to the core function spells, healing, prepping, damage.
Make alot more spells divine, so i dont specifically have to memorize c food or water or restore etc, managing your spellbook i think shouldnt matter as much just so long as your memmed.  Maybe just have a memming debuff when switching roles from healing to damage or whatever for a handful of tics.  And do away with managing a spellbook entirley.

Crazy:
Would rather have classless characters, or multi class characters and i could just swap roles as needed, and grin the skills / spells as needed without having to change which character im logged onto.
So i dont have to grind my way on multiple characters multiple times, to and through legendary.
Give them alot more xp for healing group mates, just like melee gives xp for hitting.
And if everyone is going to script / almost fully automate this type of character anyway, why not make the skills / spells that way in game. (Setup healing target priorities / roles etc)
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: reed23 on November 19, 2018, 06:47:00 PM
I've mained a healer for about 15 years now.  The only reason I play a cleric is because they are the most powerful class days 1-6 of the wipe, which are the days when the most hay is gained or lost.  After day 6, they are completely useless outside of about 5 fights in the entire game.

I enjoy playing a healer, but mostly because I am one of the leaders in our clan.  If I was merely following a clan leader around, i'd script the healer and never look at the screen.

From a healing perspective, druids & shamans are a hell of a lot easier to heal.  There are heal-over-time spells that make you have to pay attention to the healing aspect a lot less and allow you to contribute to the group in other ways.  Heal should be the buffest and easiest healing spell in the game.  Period.  Currently, it isn't.

Animates - over the course of the last 10 wipes, immortals continue to nerf animates into oblivion.  I'll take the blame for most of these, but it's harder and harder to find elite animates anymore.  Also, animates not being able to do several kws, etc. make them hard to utilize in legitimate zoning.  Wheras spirits pop out of basically every mob and can be called from zone to zone and after KWs need to be done i.e. enter mist.  Also, control is a skill, not a spell - another check in the Shaman column.  Having to cast the animate spell, dealing with failed animates, bapt it gives me anxiety just thinking about it.

No alternate use - druids and shamans have great altnerate uses and therefore make the classes more enjoyable to play.  Druids have better frags, prep, and movement helps.  Shamans have elite dps and their pets are so much more user friendly and easier to obtain.  Clerics have 0 frags and their pets are almost impossible to manage from zone to zone.

Easy fixes: make healing mist an ELITE spell.  not a dog shit spell.  make healing mist rank an ELITE rank.  It should be on the same level if not more buff than healing wave/cloud.

Make almost every mob animateable and once animated, "callable."

Make spells like flameshroud, cause critical, dispel evil/good, etc. legit frags.  I'd make flameshroud an area frag.

Give clerics legit prep spells.  Currently, I can't think of a single prep spell I use for the group outside of cloak of bravery LOL.

Having some sort of DPS route that clerics could get +dams and make them a melee class would be an interesting option too.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: gulca on November 20, 2018, 02:02:11 AM
I'm not sure if cleric changed too much since I last played, but I usually try to legend one if I had a chance.

Here are some aspects of cleric things I find fun. Some might not be true anymore...

1. Gate: ability to conjure different class charmies with their skills or spells. It's like having a minor dual class.

2. Animate: having corpses that hit harder than tanks and with right weapon, they are immune fire/ice shield

3. That legend skill that makes you hit really hard. Fun when you use a 2 hander and have a paladin haste you. Double obliterate.

4. Turn. Ok I have been deleted over and over the wipes for this but it's still fun to do. Also a quick way to regain xp.

5. Summon circle and utility spells. Nice way to pick up players over the course of zoning.

6. Sunray: fun spell even if it doesn't work most of time

7. Healing mist: I think it's a nice concept that it flows into other rooms and stackable. I would increase the random healing or decrease the spell circle.


Here are some suggestions maybe to improve the class

Dispel evil/good: aura that doubles dam against opposite alignment

Steelskin: cast on others

Heal: stays with the char until he reaches below zero and it heals to full. Wears out after 1 min. Yes now tanks can tank overkilled damages and soth. Only 1 aura at a time.

Cure crit: this will take the heal place. Massive instant cure.

Turn: after activation, auto turn effect every round on undead and zombified targets. Either hurts them or decrease their stats.

Animate: I agree most corpses should be animatable. I also believe corpse should share some damage with the owner. The more corpse he has, the more danger he might have to face if they take damage from area.
Maybe limit corpses to different categories, high hp low dam, high dam low hp. Everytime you call them from a different room, they lose Max hp and dam?






Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Jorake on November 20, 2018, 06:23:00 AM
First I will say the answer is not to debuff druids and shamans.

The main thing about clerics has already been said. They are boring to play. I Mained a cleric for several years and even before shamans and druids and I still disliked it. They are the most repetitive caster class period. I will say that the cleric legend skills are super nice and it’s fun to watch a cleric obliterate with rapture AND the skill that lets you group crit is also bad ass. And legend heal can do a minor regen.

I thought it might be cool to let clerics have different paths like scouts. Healer, zealot(melee damage) and holyman(group buffs).
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on November 20, 2018, 07:32:47 AM
PAths would be great for Cleric.

It's probably not doable with the amount of time needed but to keep it Dragonlance canon, having the ability to be a cleric of a certain god (for instance Good clerics could choose Paladine (maybe more leadership/group type buffs) , Mishakal (super duper healer) or Kiri Jolith (Battle Cleric) would be verrrry cool.

Also, please don't debuff Shamans.

Make Summon work in clan more like rit voyage.

You can't make Steelskin castable on others cause of Steelskin rank. Or make it not last very long?

Maybe more group buffs.

See Gods point above cause that would be awesome. :D
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kam on November 20, 2018, 08:00:25 AM
I feel like nobody knows about the spell cure massive that went in this wipe.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Heo on November 20, 2018, 08:46:37 AM
Agree with all of Reed's points.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on November 20, 2018, 09:42:46 AM
I feel like nobody knows about the spell cure massive that went in this wipe.

It's a Druid spell? And if it is for Clerics too , no one's seen it and what's the point since they have heal already?

Not understanding this post.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on November 20, 2018, 10:08:53 AM
I've mained a healer for about 15 years now.  The only reason I play a cleric is because they are the most powerful class days 1-6 of the wipe, which are the days when the most hay is gained or lost.  After day 6, they are completely useless outside of about 5 fights in the entire game.

I played a healer for the first time in 6 years now. The only reason I played a cleric is because they are the most powerful class weeks 1-6 of the wipe, which are the weeks when the most hay is gained or lost.  After week 6, they are completely useless outside of 5 fights that i will probably never even see all wipe.

all of reed's suggestions are great.  especially the bit about healing mist needing to be at least as powerful as healing wave is currently.  clerics seem to be severely lacking in the heal over time department and become useless long before they legend.  trying to get  animate can be frustrating because if you have a group for it, then there is a good chance that group includes another healer who needs it as well.  the one time it has been up, we've had a group to load it, and no other cleric who wanted it was on, the thief failed the disable.  so i legended my exotic shammy and never looked back.

this has been a great wipe for me but not for my cleric that made all the goodness possible for my other characters.  i'm still loving arctic but clerics are trash.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Chase on November 20, 2018, 03:17:44 PM
Couple of other things I hate about clerics (besides healing mist being useless)

1) Animate dead is pretty useless in almost all zones I've been 2 with the exceptions of 2 zones, except if I go animate corpses from a specific zone then fly and walk all round krynn with them to do the zone I actually wanna run, while shamans have it easy with spirits being in most zones and also they can call their spirits without walking around with them.

2) It doesn't seem fair that holyword only works on goodies when you're evil or evils when you're a goodie, this is supposed to be the top cleric battle spell having it powerless in half your zones kinda suck.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Jorake on November 20, 2018, 04:00:52 PM
I dont even know what cure massive is..
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on November 20, 2018, 04:22:29 PM
I dont even know what cure massive is..

as far as i can tell it is a top tier druid spell which makes clerics even more redundant
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: blackmagus on November 20, 2018, 10:04:22 PM
I agree that healing mist needs to get some serious love, give it a percent proc chance to healing a set percentage of life or just boost the overall heal to something massive on the chance a proc occurs.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: reed23 on November 21, 2018, 10:04:08 AM
Horrible idea from Blackmagus - not surprising at all.

You need reliable heals, not some BS % to heal.  Like when healing cloud was a % to go off - how many people were using druids as reliable healing sources?  Nobody. 

Healing mist needs to be a reliable heal source.  When someone is at awful in the group, are you going to say "I really hope the healing mist catches him this round."  Get real man.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kadaj on November 21, 2018, 10:21:00 AM
At that point....you could......heal them.

But smartass comments aside, healing mist could definitely use some help. It should be on par with healing wave, but you also don't want to make it too strong where it's a "cast healing mist and afk"  I think it would be cool if healing mist also had a chance to remove a negative affect, blindness, free action or something.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Dagda on November 21, 2018, 10:51:57 AM
I like the idea of adding shields to the clerics repertoire, a la discipline clerics in WoW, shield the tank to prevent damage, proc shields on other healing casts. Perhaps even add in group healing via a % of the clerics DPS if you up their spell damage.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Heo on November 21, 2018, 10:59:21 AM
Ultimately it comes down to this:

Clerics should be the best healing option for groups, currently they are not.

1)  Heavy damage on single tank - this generally is either a stoneskin solution or regenerate solution.  Regen and stoneskin can be cast Fair-Perfect, heal has to wait until Bad/V bad - so you will always get a stoneskin or regen before a heal.

2)  Group damage - Ameliorate is nice but healing wave and healing cloud seem superior.  And obviously as everyone has pointed out, healing mist is a complete joke.

Additionally, there's buffing/debuffing, but as Reed notes, is anyone really memming holy auras or prayers?  It's basically cloak of bravery and that's it.

Cure blind is fine, as is legend free action. 

But just off the top of my head, some other options are:

1)  Make healing mist superior healing to healing cloud and healing wave, potentially adding the ability to remove some negative debuffs, for instance, would be really useful for high priest in istar, etc.

2)  Create a heal over time that is better than regen and healing cloud for clerics so it makes sense for clerics to cast before shamans or druids, maybe keep it divine so you can choose between that and heals or something.  Perhaps even a mix of steelskin and regen or something. 


Bottom line is this - the reason people don't play clerics is because if there's a shaman or a druid in the group, they pretty much have zero to do except maybe toss a heal or two at end of zone.  I used to joke about being so excited to cast a heal or 2 last wipe during a zone, but it was true, I was basically afk and just around as an insurance policy which is boring as hell and obviously not what is intended from primary healing class.

Personally I would nerf shaman and druid heals, cut regen and healing cloud heal hps in half.  But I'm a dick and I'm sure the rabble would revolt, so maybe keep the arctic inflation going and buff up cleric healing so the are the PRIMARY option for healing.  And they cast first - with regards to buffing party, but especially for healing high single damage or high area damage.

Otherwise nobody will play them past early wipe except for a few people. 
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kam on November 21, 2018, 11:07:43 AM
Code: [Select]
Level 1
aid                    bless                  cause light           
create food            create water           cure light             
know alignment         restore strength       spiritual hammer       
Level 2
blindness              cure blindness         curse                 
detect evil            detect good            detect magic           
light                  remove curse           silence               
Level 3
cause serious          cure serious           fear                   
gust of wind           holy armor             poison                 
protection from evil   remove fear            remove poison         
Level 4
cloak of bravery       cure disease           dispel magic           
flamestrike            free action            heroism               
hold person            prayer                 sacred ward           
sanctuary             
Level 5
atonement              cause critical         cure critical         
dispel evil            dispel good            fortify self           
holy aura              word of recall         
Level 6
animate dead           darkness               harm                   
heal                   restoration            summon                 
Level 7
ancient curse          negative plane protectisoul leech             
strength of one        summoning circle       sunbolt               
Level 8
gate                   healing mist           holy word             
steelskin              sunray                 wave of terror         

For reference, the complete cleric prayerbook.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Heo on November 21, 2018, 11:10:31 AM
And to add to that, I remember the good old days before shamans / healing cloud:

As a cleric, you had to be on your game.  You're healing, shooting cure blinds out, free actions, dispelling enemy fireshields, rem poisoning groupmates, dealing out cures to the most vulnerable after a nasty area.  You're not some mage spamming frags or basher spamming bash, you're out there doing something different every round, parsing all the text to review group status and do the most productive thing each round to keep your group alive and attacking well.

Cleric is stunned?  Oh shit, better rescue off, it got hairy. 

With these heal over time spells, there's so much less risk.  And shaman can cure blind, everyone can do the job the cleric was really needed for.  So it's no longer exciting, and the best players no longer gravitate towards healers.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Willoe on November 21, 2018, 11:27:13 AM
I agree a lot with Reed on this...
I think in reality, Clerics only became obsolete when Shamans were introduced and Druids got buffed...To truly solve this is to look at what about these two classes has done this?
1. Healing Mist-Is a piece of shit, as far as area cures go healing wave/cultivate/healing cloud are all WAY better...Not to mention they don't get dispelled with gust of wind. In my opinion, junk this piece of shit spell and replace it with Healing Wave.
2. I think a great addition perhaps to Clerics would be the heal boost spell...They are healers after all...That being said, casting heal boost on every person in the group is annoying as bapt. Perhaps make this a group spell?
3. Animate Dead - If you would be able to summon your corpses like spirits, that would take away a lot of the gripe. At legend, this spell makes healers the one of the most powerful damagers in a group(usually), so put that along with better healing abilities, you have a strong class.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Ilya
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on November 21, 2018, 06:37:56 PM
Would love to see a system that brings the gods of Dragonlance into action...

'Pray' Skill.

Cleric can pray to one of three gods of its alignment three? times a day.

eg: Neutral Clerics

Pray Reorx : Cleric's learning abilities are greatly increased for a short period of time.


Good Cleric

Pray Mishakal: Cleric's healing done is increased significantly for the next x number of rounds.

Pray Kiri-Jolith - Cleric's damage done and number of clerics is greatly increased for next x rounds.

Evil Cleric

Pray Morgion : Something undeadish

Anyway just some ideas ot make clerics more fun and interesting. Maybe some alignment specific spells?
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on November 22, 2018, 10:33:38 AM
A few ideas on cleric:
 - leave them alone, this is still a great game. we're allowed to play two characters. if no one plays clerics after legendary shammies and druids come online, no harm done.  it feels very "dragonlance" to treat clerics the way Raistlin treated Crysania
 - give healing wave to clerics and take it away from shammies
 - make healing mist in a different circle than gate steelskin holy word
 - improve (legendary?) gate charmies: locate object, detect/disable traps, cleanse, read magic, moc
 - spell/skill to let clerics "teleport/relo" from guildmaster to guildmaster
 - spell/skill to summon all group members (including corpses) that are not in combat to the cleric
 - replace animate dead legend requirement with healing mist
 - delayed healing spell (you can cast it before a fight and then 20 seconds later or if the target does some keyword it heals the target)
 - legendary spell/skill to make a group member stand
 - legendary spell/skill to make the group nocharm
 - legendary spell to remove silence
 - spell/skill to become imm_blindness
 - spell/skill to remove charm from a former groupmate and put them back into your group
 - legendary gust of wind also does mass remove poison
 - spell/skill make group imm_poison
 - legendary cure blindness affects entire group and makes caster imm_blindness
 - ask reed and ilya their opinion.  anything those two agree on is probably a good idea.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Valenore on November 23, 2018, 09:09:12 AM
Some small change that would improve quality of life:

1.  Let clerics cast and attack on same turn.  Would make them more fun to level, especially at mid levels and more useful in small groups.

2.  Make animate generally useful.  For curiosity, I just went and tried to animate every mob in QK.  Went 1 for 20ish with the only one landed on a villager (worst mob in zone) that misses on easy mobs most of the time.  Not all that exciting for one of the higher end cleric spells.  A level 20 shaman with average skills would have come out with a full group of spirits, each of which was better.  If the 'normal' animate fails, at least make most mobs provide a reasonable chance at a generic corpse that double very hards or something.   

3.  Make steelskin castable on anyone and reduce its duration too be X number of rounds.  This would give this spell a purpose besides existing to be a rank for tanks to get.  Leave it as a rank and reduce the cost slightly (maybe 10 or 12 instead of 15) because being permanent steelskin would still be nice.  Also gives more group flexibility in that you can try stuff even if your auto-steelskin tank isn't on you can go explore or try things.  If you really want to get fancy, the 'skin' spells could be mutually exclusive so there was a reason to not get the auto-steelskin rank and require druid/cleric to work together on some fights.

4. Make some of the other buffs more useful.  Fortify could be made castable on anyone.  Holy aura could apply an improved protection from evil with double or triple the normal effect or something.

5.  Buff healing mist.

6.  Some of damage spells could be made more useful by moving circles or adding debuffs.  Example could be dispel evil/good could have a chance to ray of enfeeble, mantle, or something.  Sunbolt would be more fun if it were 5th circle instead of 7th.   
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: kmark101 on November 29, 2018, 01:14:12 AM
I think shamans and druids should be simply nerfed out of their healing capabilities, simple as that.
When druids best healing was cure critical that was a good balance, since they are mostly offensive and they had stoneskin (which also lost lots of its legendary status due to retardedly op shaman healing).

Shamans are mostly offensive as well in a different way (with hexa-quadraple hitting spirits), they should not be able to heal effectively. They should maybe able to take a player from v.bad to fair and thats it.

Besides that, I think clerics should be able to melee better. There are lots of nice cleric weapons in the game that are barely used because clerics never melee.

I also like the pray to x god idea that another guy posted.

Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Jorake on November 29, 2018, 01:44:26 PM
I’ve mained a cleric several times and always melee. Black mace of the skull or mithril flail. And when you get rapture it’s even better. So that’s lame.

The solution isn’t to nerf things people like playing. Bring clerics up to the same level. Or higher.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on November 30, 2018, 04:46:15 AM

The solution isn’t to nerf things people like playing. Bring clerics up to the same level. Or higher.


This x 1000.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on November 30, 2018, 09:44:32 AM
The solution isn’t to nerf things people like playing. Bring clerics up to the same level. Or higher.

Yes, and if there is concern over legendary power creep, the improvements can come in the utility department

the only combat buff clerics need is in the groupheal over time department. perhaps healing mist could get stronger over time or just plain old stronger
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kam on November 30, 2018, 10:30:13 AM

The primary issue facing clerics today is that shamans and druids are just better. They can do more damage and heal more or less the same as many have said with the exception of just a few fights/situations. When regenerate first went in it was given to clerics and shamans, but later decided that clerics were too powerful with it, and so removed from them. Later as shamans got more powerful with healing wave and now that druids have improved with healing cloud being less nerfed and cure massive/cultivate being added clerics find themselves at the bottom of the healing pool.
The issue isn't only that shamans and druids have a bit too much healing power comparatively but also that clerics just aren't that fun to play if you don't enjoy the challenge of keeping up with your entire group's health. Now, healing scripts have always existed and the people that use them should really just not even speak in this thread, but as a person who uses nothing more complex than a coin looter I can definitely say that healing is some of the most fun you can have.
In any case, the thing is that performing any other action when you are the primary healer is always a gamble because you might need that round to heal or cure instead of using whatever potential future melee skill or damage spell. I've definitely had a few close calls while trying to sunbolt/sunray instead of focusing on healing.

So the real question here is what do we think the overall purpose of a cleric should be?

Let's try to answer that.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kadaj on November 30, 2018, 11:26:15 AM
The overall purpose of the cleric is to cast restoration on someone who wasn't NPP and got energy drained or atonement on a poor DK who didn't cast the impunity spell.

Sure, clerics can be fun when you have to pick and choose which character to heal and what your next action is going to be. However, currently that is not the case (not has it been for a very long time). This game is 100% easier than it was back in the 'glory' days of Arctic. Legendary classes are what killed this game. Period. The power you gain from legendary is so strong, you no longer NEED to have a full group. You no longer NEED to rely on others to strive for a more common goal. You need 2-3 people who can press assist, have an alias to cast 'healing wave' or cast 'healing cloud' and that's it. Outside of a handful of fights, the game is just far too easy. I know personally I'd rather just solo with my characters because I don't have to put up with AFKs and people typing the wrong shit.

Back to the question Kam asked, the cleric has no purpose right now. There's no reason to make a cleric. I would say right now, druids and shamans are similar with healing, giving a little more power to the druid. If you really want to keep clerics in the game, just give them healing cloud or healing wave, leave heal and give them more fire power so that people can just pick the playstyle they want. Druids are fraggers, area'ing and single targeting with spells. Shamans are melee'ing and spirit masters, why not make clerics a mix of both? Giving them decent frags, allowing them to not miss their combat round while casting and give them a few skills to use in combat. That way you can pick and choose again, should I frag, should I do this important melee skill that has X affect on the fight or should I focus on healing?

IMO the only real solution for this entire game is to remove legend and make people be bapting social and NEED to group again. There's absolutely no reason why a druid/barbarian right now can solo 90% of the game. It's just ridiculous.


TL;DR
No one is given the chance to be the 'hero' of a fight with their awesome 'manual healing' because characters got 100% stronger while mobs stayed the same.

P.S.   Give clerics the spell "Cleanse' so they have a chance to be the heroes
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on November 30, 2018, 11:33:00 AM
Canon answer:
They are the direct servants/representatives of the Krynnish Gods and their powers and abilities should reflect that.


Arctic implementation:

- Abilities/skills/spells that reflect that service. Linked specifically to those gods, or gods of their alignment. An emphasis on healing/group protection and channeling the gods power.

Muddy to code.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Heo on November 30, 2018, 11:33:16 AM
Ultimately it should be keeping your group alive I would say.

That means your primary mission is keeping people cured from high mob targeted damage, specials, area effects, debilitating effects that can take people out of combat, etc.


We should also probably discuss what druid and shamans are supposed to be.

Right now I see each class's mission as the following:

Cleric:  Primary healer for group and tank, able to get rid of debuffs like group members being held, blind, feebled, poisoned, or otherwise taken out of play.
Shaman:  Sometimes soloer char that is a balance of healing and damage + offers strong group buffing effects (kind of like bard?)
Druid:  Movement and pure damage
Mage:  Utility and damage + strong area and pvp

------------

So what happened?  Druids already had stoneskin, but then were buffed with cure massive and healing cloud.

Shamans got regenerate and healing wave.

So, in general in a group, you're going to cast stoneskin, healing cloud, cure massive, regenerate, or healing wave before you're going to see clerics dishing out cures or heals.  So if there is a druid or a shaman in the group, they are the ones doing all group healing because their spells are safer and go out before cleric spells.  Most tanks prefer to see a regen at good/fair keeping them in good HP, than falling to vbad and hoping the cleric doesn't miss a conc.

Just speaking logically, I would say the smart thing to do would be make the shaman and druid massive healing spells only able to be cast on themselves or their charmies.  That puts healing back on clerics.  Or maybe make it only able to be cast once a day on others or something like that.  Or, if nerfs are at all scary, give those spells in a lower spell circle to clerics.

Basically clerics purpose should always have been keeping the group alive, but with other classes getting buffed far outside what they were supposed to be, clerics have lost their purpose.




Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on November 30, 2018, 11:48:19 AM
Maybe a skill that let you target one char to receive a heal automatically from cleric when it hits a certain level of hp?
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Jorake on November 30, 2018, 12:06:54 PM
1. Let cleric hit twice
2. Let cleric cast and not lose battle rounds
3. Nerf shaman and Druid area healing(and I hate when shit gets nerfed)
4. Instead of nerfs. Swap healing wave and healing mist for shaman and cleric. Or cloud and mist. Since druids do have more healing power than shamans atm.
5. Give something similar to seance to clerics.
6. Give clerics auto haste and make spiritual hammer a 10d10 10 10 weapon
7. Buff steel skin when cast by a cleric or give them an area group limit damage aura
8. Make cure blind remove poison a group area spell
9. Give them a skill to remove silence
10. Maybe——-maybe... give them gate as a 5th circle spell and make it guild
11. Do 1 through 10(except 6 that’s insane)((but no, do 6. It’ll get crazy funny how everyone will cleric))
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on November 30, 2018, 12:52:06 PM
Vote yes on 6 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Heo on November 30, 2018, 02:19:15 PM
While we're at it, maybe change the following spells for cleric for an easy win:

Prayer - this only lasts 3 tics and is a bless in 4th circle?  Why not make it Prot Good/Evil and Bless and last for as long as a bless would?

Dispel Magic - How about making this remove a negative effect guaranteed so it's more useful for removing debilitating effects in fights?

Healing Mist - already discussed
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kadaj on November 30, 2018, 02:55:20 PM
Another good one, give them a 'holy/unholy' shield, would help solo'ing on a cleric
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: kanu on November 30, 2018, 03:01:40 PM
So my idea revolves around a different element of Arctic (that players play primarily to see themselves improve and to learn new things) and references what someone else said in this thread, that Clerics are the representatives of the Gods they serve.

Except that now, that really isn't true since every cleric is the same. What if we differentiated clerics more by the different gods they serve, perhaps via a series of quests that clerics undertook? This would let clerics experience some of the incremental power changes that other classes get as they advance (beyond the increase in the number of spells) and let different people play clerics in different ways.

Further, this would give the Gods of Arctic a chance to see what types of power/skills actually lead to more people playing clerics and the different pathways would offer a natural way to compare these different powers. I think it would be a lot of work to implement but I think the final result would be worth it and would give players lots of new things to try out.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: gulca on December 01, 2018, 02:40:48 AM
Here is a quick healing improvement for cleric.


All cure spells are group cures, no legend needed. No target needed. Charmies are included.

Create elixir. Similar to paladin, except it does the basic buff and remove poison/blind instead of food.

Heal. Total hp heal, with steelskin effect that last for 1. round. Also remove all edrain debuff effect.

Hero. Max hp and saves improves by 50 percent for all effect

The only spells that take away melee rounds are damage and debuff spells. Cure and heals can be casted without losing melee.

As for path, a cleric can worship any of the gods

Paladine allows mem during battle.

Mishakal adds 2 slots per circle. Healing 30 percent more.

Morgion increases animate chance and corpse limit. Turn skill increase by 10.





Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Willoe on December 01, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
The path idea is pretty cool.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on December 01, 2018, 02:16:36 PM
3. Nerf shaman and Druid area healing(and I hate when shit gets nerfed)

I agree that the group heal over time is messed up.  clerics should be the best at that (even if it means nerfing shammy and druid) but currently they are the worst.  as far as single target cures, clerics are doing just fine.  legendary healing mist should be as good as wave and/or healing cloud.  before legend clerics are better than druids and shammies in the curing department.  but they pay a double price for this early advantage: they are both harder to legend and relatively less powerful after legend compared do druids and clerics.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Zozen on December 04, 2018, 07:12:17 AM
Rename Shaman to Cleric.
Add some "old Cleric" spells and remove other useless ones.
You're welcome.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Dyl on December 04, 2018, 09:50:36 AM
I like the idea of prayer a la paladins for specific boosts.

I like being able to 'call' your animates similar to spirits.  It might be interesting to tie this into a 'religious' flag on a particular room similar to weather or terrain where you can consecrate or desecrate the room.  Those flags would determine if the cleric could call his animates (think shoikan grove/buried alive hands climbing up from the grave).  Could also give bonuses/penalties based on alignment of people in the room.... LE cleric 'desecrate' room -1hr -1dr to all LG in room and visa versa.

I haven't thought any of this through, but I like the fact the discussion is happening.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: jrrestad on December 05, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
What I dislike about Clerics: As mentioned, they are boring and one dimensional. Agree with Kam that healing can be a nerve wracking and yet rewarding experience, and there really is an art to healing and battle mem'ing which seems lost to most. Still clerics are a great class, and just need to be made more "fun" to play. Lack of skills is probably my guess as to why they are boring.

Strength: Clerics often lead groups and are often picking up zone items, yet they can be weak as mages or druids.

Lack of skills: Rapture and ameliorate are awesome, but you have to wait to be legendary

Useless spells: All of your casting will be done from 4rth circle up, with the exception of 'cure blind' in 2nd circle. Making for a very top heavy casting class. This almost works, however, because of the excess of useless spells up there:

Wave of Terror: 8th circle, does not succeed enough to be used. If you need to fear something out, bring a Mountain Scout.
Fear: See above

Healing Mist: This isn't a bad spell to mimic paladins divine focus skill. It is almost a healing wave cast OUTSIDE of battle. I hate clerics that cast/mem this during a large fight, as it heals my opponent as well. At best this can occasionally be stacked outside of combat to mimic regenerate.

Cause light/serious/critical: Damage is terrible, and what cleric mems 'cause critical' over 'cure critical'. So you never really go past 'cause serious'
Flamestrike: Too weak

Darkness: A cleric has almost no business casting this spell. Even if you get a nightvision item, if you need to darkness around bring a DK, preferably with darkness2.0 AKA nightfall.

NPP: This spell would be a worthwhile prep if it lasted like a normal spell, say 'sacred ward' or 'heroism'

Poison: Never lands, but I can poison canteens or water fountains sometimes. Wouldn't be bad if it worked on weapons.

Holy armor/spiritual hammer: Too weak and useless. Not very noticable from being naked

Prayer: Mass bless is useful, but it doesn't last long enough. I end up just meming several 'bless' spells to cast on the important people in the group

Gate: This spell exists for one purpose.... Aspasia (or the equivalent). Now, a cleric being able to pick doors is immensely valuable, but I think the spell could be much more.

Curse/ancient curse: The only way curse is useful, is when its part of an attack (bladecurse) or combined in a skill (hex). As a spell, it sucks because it's too easy to save against. Even if the affects are pretty good, I might as well try to cast 'hold person' instead of this spell. Therefore, this spell exists for one purpose... To curse my chest so thieves can't steal.

Suggestions for improving class:

Here are my suggestions for making them even greater (provided unlimited resources and time).

1) Split up the rapture/ameliorate skills into fragments and give them to normal clerics:
- Rapture, I believe, increases damage and hitroll, allows you to mem in combat, and you can now cast without loosing battle rounds.

Could make 2 or 3 skills out of this one alone that add some variability to a non-legend cleric.
- Ameliorate: Great spell that allows your cures to become area cures. This skill could easily be for non-legend clerics, and would bring them up to par with other healing classes. It should probably last more than 3 casts or so.

2) Do a reconfigurement of cleric slots, as was done with Druids. I won't offer a suggestion here and I think Druids were done nicely.

3) Rework or buff some of the particularly useless spells.

4) Existing skills/spells that could work with Clerics:

Spells:
-Absolution
-Exorcism (although isn't this really a repackaged dispel evil?)
-Protection from Undead
-
Skills:
-Bladecurse: Rename this, allow clerics to poison/blind/silence/dispel evil with their hammer hits?
-Divine Focus
-Beseech: Could add different affects to Cleric, this could handle the 'paths' that other people suggested. Beseech Paladine/mishakal/habbakuk if goody for some healing %, or group NPP... Beseech Takhisis/Chemosh/morgion for some spell damage or extra hit chance?



Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Jorake on December 05, 2018, 01:27:05 PM
Take all of what Jrrestad said. Change gate to a guild spell. And so all of those things
This = clerics fixed
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Jorake on December 05, 2018, 03:33:42 PM
Oh and give them auto haste. Obviously
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on December 06, 2018, 04:22:04 PM
I love clerics and already find them fun.  But the only two times I play a cleric is to cloak at physix when papers shop is closed or to pick doors in lemuria when no thief is on.  Otherwise, it just makes more sense to play something else because of 3 critical defects.

1.  group heal over time inferior to druids and shammies.  Could fix this by buffing healing mist or stealing healing wave from shammies and giving it to clerics.  Maybe a legendary "mass heal boost" spell could be introduced to buff healing mist to be on par with healing wave and make cure crit on par with cure massive.  if healing mist were improved sufficiently i might even play my cleric.  but for now i'm happy leaving it in the inn.
2.  low utility/mobility.  When clerics were the top curing option (i.e. before legendary regenerate and cure massive and heal cloud) it made sense that they had low mobility and utility. But now that they are inferior they could use some mobility/utility. Could fix this by giving them a legendary "reverse ritual voyage" which takes them to a groupmate/clannie.  locate object on a gate charmie or as a cleric spell and some sort of "go to guild master in a main town of choice".  if they could locate as well as a trash mage, i could use the cleric to locate and then inertia would have cleric stick around for the zone if something loaded.  but for now i'm happy to locate with a trash mage, and then bring something other than the cleric or trashmage for the zone if something loaded.
3.  very hard to legend compared to druids and shammies.  By the time clans are popping animate dead regularly, the druids and shammies are legendary and so the cleric isnt actually important anymore.  can fix this by swapping animate dead requirement with healing mist.  had it been this way since beginning of wipe, I would have mained a cleric until it legended instead of (happily) abandoning it asap.

the only power increase clerics need is in the group heal over time department.  everything else can be done via utility and ease of legend (which presumably wont upset game balance or cause power creep).  i'm all for making clerics more fun (even though they already are) and there have been many great suggestions to improve fun, but to make me drag the cleric out of the inn they are first going to have to become more powerful (group heal over time) and/or more useful/mobile.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Matthew on December 07, 2018, 07:29:40 AM
I want to be a cleric of Morgion and spread disease. Or a priest of Sargonnas and burn the elves. Maybe a cleric of Mishakal and heal the sick, or follow Habbakuk and turn into a great bear. I also want to be a Kender and wap people with my hoopak and find things in my pockets, or yours.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: RichE on December 09, 2018, 07:43:22 PM
Agree with all points brought up. 

The one thing i would change is how the Turn Skill currently works.  My thought is that clerics should straight up own the undead.  Right now if a mob is over 25 it doesn't really do anything.  Superb Turn should destroy, charm, bash, stun, flee, mind damage, keep trackers out of room, or just damage/kill the undead.  Add in quest to make your holy symbol upgrade to add these abilities against undead mobs.  Bottom line, you should really want a cleric in an undead zone.  The way it is coded now, its either dead or you fail.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Heo on December 09, 2018, 08:34:38 PM
My two cents -

All these ideas are great and fun.  A number of these ideas seem like they are time prohibitive for a small unpaid staff doing this on their free time. 

But here's the bottom line.  Clerics are supposed to be the top healer option.  That is their class function, their main utility.  Giving them damage or undead control or random elixirs or whatever is nice, but nothing is fixed while they are not the top healer.

People want a char in the group that can keep people alive.  That means cures, getting rid of debilitating group debuffs, basically keeping the group alive and hitting at full power.

Clerics won't be a top healing option while regenerate/healing wave and stoneskin/healing cloud/cure massive exist in their current state.

A regenerate is safer than a heal, and can be cast at good/fair, negating the use of a heal at bad/vbad.  Healing mist is far crappier than healing cloud.

Druid/Shamans should be the secondary healing options with useful other options, something that's useful instead of a 2nd cleric, or in a pinch for a non-super high difficulty zone.

This cannot happen with the current healing options.  Regenerate/healing wave either need to be nerfed or given to clerics, or another spell that is superior to those needs to be given to clerics.  Clerics should also have a better group heal option than druids have.  Or, give mobs a skill which negates the use of healing cloud.  Make gust get rid of healing cloud, or it only work outdoors.  Have regenerate only castable on someone else once a day, or cure both the mob and the person hitting the mob. 

That's the bottom line.  Otherwise, in a group with a druid and shaman, the healer will literally do NOTHING except MAYBE for the last couple mobs.  That's what you need to fix.  Otherwise it's all window dressing.

Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Jorake on December 09, 2018, 09:31:47 PM
That's all fine and good. But i think you are missing the entire point of why people aren't playing clerics.

Sure shamans and druids have good heals. great heals even. But neither can bring a 800 hp tank from 1hp to 800 with 1 spell. This alone makes clerics the top healing option. It however doesnt address or negate the fact that clerics are BORING as shit to play. I consider myself one of the best nonscript healers still around. I played clerics for 4-5wipes straight. Before legend and after legend. I get to the point where i hardly ever type group to check hps. I watch the battle rounds and see who just got massacred, was it a mage(if i let them in group), was it a tank that will regen those hps on the tic. Who can survive 2-3 rounds in a row while eating 3x oblits and such. Speed read through the spam of a color spray or sunray and see who got blinded, who got weakened, who is more important to restore strength or cure blind right at that time. Kam brought up a good point that battle healing, or planning your moves etc with heals, cure blinds, when to cure this person, which person do you let die when there isnt a choice for both to live. Sure its exciting for that fight. That ONE fight that requires those decisions. EVERY OTHER FIGHT is boring as shit. Cause even if you dont have a druid/shaman. You are just typing heal blahblahtank. Their utility is horrible. Having gate makes it kinda fun, cause you can control a charmie. or legend animate even. you can see fun damage. But even gate lost me when they changed the marilith. I used to love hoarding some decent nolimit prime, and like ebony shield just for my demon. Cause it hit twice and bashed and was fun to play in groups. But thats gone and i never casted gate again other than to pick something.

Druids can cast spells to deal damage and do some nice curing. They get a pet. They are fun at legend. 
Shaman can do some minor damage, but they have stupefy/hex/spook/FRENZY. I play my shamans more for damage than healing. I'm fine with the natural slots they get. I love being able to 2x annih on a bashed mob with a 2hander.
Clerics can animate(when it lands), have 5-6rounds of a group cure crit, and AND and TURN! Oh and heal.

I dont get tired of saying it. The answer isn't nerfing other classes people love playing. The answer is to turn clerics into something that people would love to play.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: gulca on December 10, 2018, 01:10:24 AM
Here is another way to separate clerics from other healing classes.

Introduce rate of curing.

Each race has innate rate of curing, similar to health.

The rate determines how many hp can be recovered per round, aka 4s. Typical value would be 30hp per tick. Tanks have higher rates than casters and dwarfs have higher rates than elfs.

Let's put up some example.

Bob the warrior has 400 Max hp and current hp is also Max. He got into a fight with toede and won the battle with 200 hp left.

A shaman cast cure crit on him. The cure crit raises his potential hp by 50. It will take Bob 2 rounds to reach 250hp. First round 230, next round 250. Casting more cures will raise his potential hp until it hits 1.5x his Max hp, 600.

Every new damage he gets will lower his current hp and his potential hp by the same amount. Note his current hp may never exceed his Max hp.

So all cures and healing buff from non cleric class can only increase potential hps and curing rates.

Only cleric can raise the immediate current hp either with cures or heal. Heal would change potential hp to 1.5x the max hp and current hp to Max hp.

So what does this mean?

It means that non cleric classes cannot cure and heal the group outright. They can be good cure support over the long term, but never in a real fight. Having a healing cloud or Regen will keep the whole group pretty much at full hp after half a tick to a tick. But if someone is getting obliterated, they will need stoneskin or a cleric cure or a rescue


Clerics will be back as the only real curing class.

A lot of buff and debuff can be applied to rate of curing, Max of potential hp and so on.

You can sell curing potions in shops with this new system as it won't break the game.

Shaman and druids will focus on other stuff but will still be a good part time curing class to a group. 
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on December 10, 2018, 08:40:21 AM
All these ideas are great and fun.  A number of these ideas seem like they are time prohibitive for a small unpaid staff doing this on their free time. 

But here's the bottom line.  Clerics are supposed to be the top healer option.  That is their class function, their main utility.  Giving them damage or undead control or random elixirs or whatever is nice, but nothing is fixed while they are not the top healer.
...
That's what you need to fix.  Otherwise it's all window dressing.

I agree with everything Heo said.  Make clerics the greatest primary healers again.  Druids and shammies have stolen their jobs.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on December 10, 2018, 01:19:29 PM
Just make them more fun. Otherwise shits getting nerfed , and no one likes that.

Deity specifc skills and some better/new spells.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Dagda on December 10, 2018, 02:47:46 PM
That's all fine and good. But i think you are missing the entire point of why people aren't playing clerics.

Sure shamans and druids have good heals. great heals even. But neither can bring a 800 hp tank from 1hp to 800 with 1 spell. This alone makes clerics the top healing option. It however doesnt address or negate the fact that clerics are BORING as shit to play. I consider myself one of the best nonscript healers still around. I played clerics for 4-5wipes straight. Before legend and after legend. I get to the point where i hardly ever type group to check hps. I watch the battle rounds and see who just got massacred, was it a mage(if i let them in group), was it a tank that will regen those hps on the tic. Who can survive 2-3 rounds in a row while eating 3x oblits and such. Speed read through the spam of a color spray or sunray and see who got blinded, who got weakened, who is more important to restore strength or cure blind right at that time. Kam brought up a good point that battle healing, or planning your moves etc with heals, cure blinds, when to cure this person, which person do you let die when there isnt a choice for both to live. Sure its exciting for that fight. That ONE fight that requires those decisions. EVERY OTHER FIGHT is boring as shit. Cause even if you dont have a druid/shaman. You are just typing heal blahblahtank. Their utility is horrible. Having gate makes it kinda fun, cause you can control a charmie. or legend animate even. you can see fun damage. But even gate lost me when they changed the marilith. I used to love hoarding some decent nolimit prime, and like ebony shield just for my demon. Cause it hit twice and bashed and was fun to play in groups. But thats gone and i never casted gate again other than to pick something.

Druids can cast spells to deal damage and do some nice curing. They get a pet. They are fun at legend. 
Shaman can do some minor damage, but they have stupefy/hex/spook/FRENZY. I play my shamans more for damage than healing. I'm fine with the natural slots they get. I love being able to 2x annih on a bashed mob with a 2hander.
Clerics can animate(when it lands), have 5-6rounds of a group cure crit, and AND and TURN! Oh and heal.

I dont get tired of saying it. The answer isn't nerfing other classes people love playing. The answer is to turn clerics into something that people would love to play.

Geo plays a cleric every wipe and I don't think he uses scripts :). He stills seems to love it and I have never met a more reliable healer, except maybe Troggs - but he definitely script healed.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Heo on December 10, 2018, 05:26:20 PM
Scripts can also mean just heavily modifying your client.

For instance, if someone gets stabbed, I can hit F1 to instantly heal them.  Is that scripting?

Or I can hit gc and it shows me each person's status in a separate window with F2-10 next to their name and I can hit that button to heal anyone low without keeping track of spam.  Personally I feel being able to parse information intelligently makes you a better healer than someone who tries to do it without customizing their client.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Jorake on December 11, 2018, 05:37:18 AM
I just type 102 wpm. I alias the tank and that’s it.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Shannow on December 11, 2018, 11:08:02 AM
Scripts can also mean just heavily modifying your client.

For instance, if someone gets stabbed, I can hit F1 to instantly heal them.  Is that scripting?

Or I can hit gc and it shows me each person's status in a separate window with F2-10 next to their name and I can hit that button to heal anyone low without keeping track of spam.  Personally I feel being able to parse information intelligently makes you a better healer than someone who tries to do it without customizing their client.

#advancedclericing
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on December 15, 2018, 06:22:06 PM
these are the quickest fixes i can think of for making clerics great again:

1. remove legendary regen and legendary cloud from game, build a wall around those legendary ranks and make shamans/druids pay for it
2. improve base stats of healing mist, have it stack massively with healboost so that it can help the main tank much more than it does others in the room,
3. let clerics have healboost as well (probably circle 7)
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kam on December 18, 2018, 11:31:44 AM
Geo plays a cleric every wipe and I don't think he uses scripts :). He stills seems to love it and I have never met a more reliable healer, except maybe Troggs - but he definitely script healed.

Geo has never been better than me. Don't let him tell you lies!
The Troggs heal bot was also not as good as either myself or Geo, but it was pretty damn good.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Dagda on December 19, 2018, 10:35:24 AM
Geo plays a cleric every wipe and I don't think he uses scripts :). He stills seems to love it and I have never met a more reliable healer, except maybe Troggs - but he definitely script healed.

Geo has never been better than me. Don't let him tell you lies!
The Troggs heal bot was also not as good as either myself or Geo, but it was pretty damn good.

I don't think you've ever healed me though :P. But my memory of my late 20s is blurry.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Matthew on December 22, 2018, 05:24:47 AM
I agree that a clerics healing power in Arctic is still the best. Perhaps legend requirements could change etc but that is not what stops them from being fun to play. And while I do enjoy the challenge of healing a group I don't think its enough to make them FUN like other classes.

Clerics in Arctic feel like they were plucked out of Dungeons and Dragons, not Dragonlance. There's no diversity of gods or even alignment. I can't remember an evil priest in any Dragonlance book ever healing another being of anything. Some healed or regenerated their own wounds but I can't remember one ever healing another (its been a long time since i read them though, so feel free to correct that). Only Mishakal granted the healing power that the clerics of Arctic possess? I was in Delphon fighting Haemk, the priest there of Sargonnas who summons a fire elemental and thought at least the mobs are getting it right sometimes.

I would say "It would be fun to have this diversity" but I can tell you from playing other muds that it IS. Each god is very unique and this can be reflected in the power and purpose of their followers. Dark Knights and Paladins can or could share in some of this as well. It's even possible to implement a 'worship' for every class, each god granting a boon conditionally or through clerics/dks/paladins. Or quest lines like the lily/crown/rose/sword quests for each god.

Another thing to note is that most of them are a melee class, yet they have no melee skills. I wouldn't imagine a cleric of Mishakal is much of a melee fighter though.

Clerics are restricted to blunt weapons and the weird 'misc' category, but in the books they used a multitude of weapons including daggers, swords and even spears or tridents. We even have evil priests in the game armed with knives etc. They can all wear a shield and yet all they can do with it is represented by the shields stats.

Anyway, I say this because Arctic has gone through some massive transformations while I was away and thought, why stop now.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kadaj on February 15, 2019, 06:20:32 AM
One thing that just came to me that would make clerics pretty cool and reactive, what if they had a skill or spell that would allow them to 'force' someone to stand.

Everyone hates getting bashed, playing a tank, that's the number one WORST flipping thing, I hate it. It would be cool if clerics could 'uplift' or 'command' them to stand up, it wouldn't have to remove their bash lag but it could at least allow them to continue to breach/guard/fence. Just a random thought.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Oligo on February 18, 2019, 02:22:22 PM
Geo plays a cleric every wipe and I don't think he uses scripts :). He stills seems to love it and I have never met a more reliable healer, except maybe Troggs - but he definitely script healed.

Geo has never been better than me. Don't let him tell you lies!
The Troggs heal bot was also not as good as either myself or Geo, but it was pretty damn good.

You guys have clearly never played with my heal bot(s).
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on February 19, 2019, 04:49:31 PM
One thing that just came to me that would make clerics pretty cool and reactive, what if they had a skill or spell that would allow them to 'force' someone to stand.

Everyone hates getting bashed, playing a tank, that's the number one WORST flipping thing, I hate it. It would be cool if clerics could 'uplift' or 'command' them to stand up, it wouldn't have to remove their bash lag but it could at least allow them to continue to breach/guard/fence. Just a random thought.

you want power word stand to load on mom or something?
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: hanlon on February 19, 2019, 05:40:11 PM
Even if people did enjoy playing Clerics what's the point when they are basically impossible to legend due to their spell loads being super low and just all around bad? You can legend a druid or shaman 10x faster and their spells aren't god awful to load! I've glymmer around 100 times and not seen one book. You screwed up Amity and removed it from the game for whatever reason and I  have been forced to all learn that Trash crap zone COT and even that load rate is abysmal. If you want to make clerics fun again give them better spells and better spell load rates. I mean how many times has anyone see a book load in Irda or Bmombs this wipe and how many times have you run those zones? I think i've seen 3 books and maybe ran each about 40x. You could also give Shamans and Druids the cleric treatment and nerf the hell out of their loads rates. Maybe put healing wave on Soth and Remove healing cloud from Raven shadow.  Add heal cloud to the end of Mithas or something. In order words just make it impossible for shamans or druids to load AOE heal spells. Kinda like what you guys did for stun and nightmare. Just make it impossible!
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Gnua on February 20, 2019, 04:37:15 PM
I've glymmer around 100 times and not seen one book.

Yikes, I thought it wasnt so bad when I saw two books on my first 3 glymmer runs.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Terk on February 21, 2019, 04:50:22 PM
I used to play clerics, because being a decent one made it super easy to get into groups and form groups. In the old days they had a few things really going for them in high end solo play and small group play: blind/poison/darkness and hard hitting weapons/animates/gates were a combination that could let you do a ton of stuff. Based on the feedback here it's obvious all this aged out pretty quickly.

I feel like ever since Templars were invented though I've been missing the feel of a faith system for clerics. Clearly clerics should be somewhat faith based and attuned to specific capabilities by alignment.

I generally agree that they should all be excellent at primary healing and group healing.
One spell type that would likely help immediately would be
'revive' - sort of like last chance but 80% HP upon death blow and with no penalty. [Maybe a 1 tick cool down on reapplication?]

I think except for evil clerics, clerics should generally primarily excel by working with others.

Good clerics should specialize in character defensive buffs--evade physical, evade magical, hp shields/wards.
Neutral clerics should specialize in character buffs offensive--damage augmentation/backstab mod boost, group fast mem/mental acuity, group slot expansion, spell power modifications etc.
Evil clerics should get animate/gate and poison/frag ability specializations allowing them to be elite damage dealers, but more selfish in strengths.
Title: Re: Clerics?
Post by: Kam on February 22, 2019, 03:47:17 AM
We're ready for you to come back to work whenever you're done being a stupid doctor in real life, Terk. Whatever whatever your entire life of college and effort. Arctic is clearly the best and only place in the world to spend your time and effort sir.