Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Beryv on October 22, 2015, 11:09:28 AM

Title: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Beryv on October 22, 2015, 11:09:28 AM
Beyond the survey please feel free to leave comments explaining your vote. Please note the question does not take into consideration PVP. Although if you'd like to leave a note explaining how PVP might improve or reduce your view overall that is also welcome.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Hele on October 22, 2015, 11:35:53 AM
Scouts have squishy hpt
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Beryv on October 22, 2015, 11:42:37 AM
Small addendum since people have started explaining to me scouts are not tanks. Yes, I understand, the point is really to consider which of these classes are the worst for soloing and have the least value to a group overall at all stages of the game. Thanks!
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Hoodoo on October 22, 2015, 12:54:51 PM
If you think scouts aren't tanks, you aren't baptin' doing it right. :)   Tanked most of the mud on Ix.   Warriors are solid but require actual skill to tank as opposed to scripts and the ability to type 'wild;breach' every few rounds. (Warrior's strength comes from target/legend parry limdam/fortress combo, and the fact that the breach skill has not rotted their brains and ruined their habits).

DK/Pally are really solo monsters: either barbs or warriors do it better for large group tanking.

Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: muddeer on October 22, 2015, 07:28:06 PM
Unless there has been a significant change during the last wipe and a half I haven't played, I think the fighter classes are pretty well balanced for zoning.  Some are strong in solo, weak in group, and others are vice versa.  Barbs and their hps still rule for group tanking though.  Entry bash/stun makes warrior defensive skills useless in many cases.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Gramm on October 23, 2015, 07:03:21 AM
i think scouts are weakest tanking class overall, they have their perks dont get me wrong. but unless they are fully legend or ridiculously stacked i just dont see them ever "out tanking" a barb basher paladin in groups. They have their uses though of course, just not as overall tanks, sort of the mage class of attack damage if you ask me. They are all instinct damage and bursts but not good at consistently eating damage.  I havent legended a scout though personally, sky scouts obviously cant tank, i still dont see mountain scouts as main tanks , and ocean scouts have never really stood out when there is a legend paladin or barbarian in the group as the choice i would go with as main tank lol. bring back the ranger! time to lube scouts! lube them good!  lets make it so you can shoot at targets from a few rooms away too for added fun : p *a flaming arrow comes zooming past your head WHOOSH!* a small kender is caught in the crossfire, a small kender is DEAD R.I.P!


Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Hoodoo on October 23, 2015, 09:27:38 AM
Ocean scouts are the kings of fence and limdam stacking.  Really does work. :) Though yes, full legend is needed.  Tanked full Fun Mir with one, among many other places.

That being said, it is *easier* to tank it with a warrior.  Still, you'd be surprised what a steelskin full legend 28 dex ocean with about +15 fence/rip can tank without sweating, Gramm.  :)  There are definitely major fights where I found it far easier tanking on my ocean than a warrior/pally/barb would have.

Jason

Ocean: Ix (Steelskin/full legend, kender)
Warrior: Vyllein (Steelskin/full legend kender)
Whitey: Molly (Steelskin/full legend gnome)

Yep, seems to be a pattern.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Morte on October 23, 2015, 01:27:13 PM
scouts are not tanks. and if you try to play one as a tank you are spending alot more time and effort then its worth.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Hoss on October 23, 2015, 01:33:36 PM
If mage's had rescue, they would tank way better than a scout.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Chisul on October 23, 2015, 04:31:06 PM
When I was playing, my Mtn never served as a decent tank, but I found plenty of zones and mobs that I could solo as a scout that my legend paladin would just get chewed up in...and vice versa. There are tons of zones and mobs my paladin can solo that would kill my mountain faster than I could recite recall me.

It really comes down  to what you know and what you want. When playing a tank, I hate simply sitting there absorbing damage so the party can kill stuff. That is a simplification, but gives some flavor. When I used to lead, I didn't care what skills a tank had beyond high HP, a solid rescue, and some trained damage mitigation.

So if i define a tank based on how I played vs. What I wanted when leading I'd get two very different answers.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: snax on October 23, 2015, 09:08:05 PM
If mage's had rescue, they would tank way better than a scout.
Hell yeah.  Mages are the strongest tanks in the game.  Even crappy 3rd tier me has mained stuff like soth as a mage. =)  I've seen a lot of mages over the years main most of the dragons without an orb, and if they have an orb well then they're just gravy.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Hoodoo on October 24, 2015, 12:41:32 AM
Mountains are DPS, not tankly.  Anyone who tries to tank a mountain deserves the beating they're about to receive.  Why?  Mountains have no innate damage mit past fence, and oceans even do that better. 

Oceans, on the other hand, get legend whale and legend crab, along with solid fencing.  Stack some relatively easy to acquire minor limdams on top of fence and legend crab, with whale's innates helping in various ways, and you have a tank that dodges most things, heals every round a small amount and 200+ hps on a timer, reduces what he doesn't dodge by a *significant* amount, paralyzes on a timer... it's fairly filthy.  Only problem is that scout rescue is not unlike winning a gold in the Special Olympics:  even at superb, it requires significant help. :)

I'm not saying I'd main tank a scout over, say, a solid warrior, but I did have quite a bit of success on Ix.

Jason
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Morte on October 24, 2015, 01:33:41 PM
shamans are better tanks than scouts at least their rescue lands.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Hoodoo on October 24, 2015, 01:50:47 PM
"Their".   
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Hoss on October 24, 2015, 02:25:45 PM
"than"
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Morte on October 24, 2015, 04:47:37 PM
Grammar police.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Jorake on October 26, 2015, 11:29:51 AM
I do not think warriors are good tanks at all. They are so outclassed by barbs/paladins/dks and even scouts. i'd take a 550hp ocean scout tank over a 720hp warrior tank all day. The only issue with scout tanks is big stab damage like the thief in galans. I seem to recall ix tanking death giants in spire too. I in fact didn't want him to because I thought he'd die up super fast. There was a death or 2 but he wasnt one of them!

I don't want to see scouts go at all though. And i also liked old rangers. I'm hoping there will be some type of merger with these 2 classes but idk. Rangers dont need to bash. They will never = sky scouts in bows. They will never = oceans in tanking. They will never = mountain in sheer glass-cannon damage. But the thing about scouts is that none of them master all 3 realms. Tweak burst a bit. Lower volley damage on skys down to 4 targets(i think its 5 atm?). Put in some penalties for mountains when they thrash/anger or something. Leave oceans alone, because I think they are pretty balanced as is.

Also, add a monk and bard class. Because it sounds awesome!
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Jorquin on October 26, 2015, 06:16:01 PM
personally i couldn't care less what happens to scouts, i think the whole concept is silly.

furthermore mountain and sky scouts are both totally ridiculous, overpowered and boring. they require practically no equipment to destroy everything in sight, need like 2 skills trained each and are boring "hit and forget" characters.

Assist;anger;thrash;afk/alt-tab
aim <target>;shoot auto;volley;afk/alt-tab

i will not be sad if/when they disappear... ocean scouts are probably just the casualty of war in the situation (although that class concept is stupid as well imo)
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: snax on October 26, 2015, 08:09:28 PM
"at"
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Chisul on October 26, 2015, 08:48:02 PM
Stone Dragon RIP

Finally killing that sucker made scouts fun for me. I've pushed the envelope with scouts more than any other class as far as exploration and solo zone attempts. I will be sad if/when they leave hunting down and killing instinct mobs made the class so fun. Now there is no adventure in finding the instincts because everybody knows the load locations. Just like pally and dk quests...

I know it's wierd, but fumble Nutting my way around and finding warg and fenris solo are some of my favorite memories. Also solo killing snow leopard in the hard load area...great times.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Jorake on October 27, 2015, 06:30:56 AM
Hahaha.. .As opposed to what? Thief? Warrior? DK? Paladin? assist/unbalance/coup*set a loop*,(insert your class name here + loop commands) You describing scouts like that is just funny. You can make every hitter class in the game like that. Assist script/autorescue script etc etc. And they are only boring if you intend to play them like you mentioned.

Also, these classes are so bapting over powered because of the legend system. When you can keep your main skill up constantly because the cooldown doesnt lap the usage, you have a  broken character.

I think it should be in terms of pk though really. Because zoning was broke a long time ago. You can say "they make it to easy" but thats bullshit. We did dunmir full with dk shaman barb druid. So lets nerf those classes too.

If you want to fix something, fix the healing system in the game. We have 3 diff classes that can solo heal most anything at different stages. Shamans have the potential to outdamage any scout via spirits. I remember doing massive amounts of damage on Gromski. Only thing I had was a huge sterling axe, ivory set from the library, and 5 spirits from HCT gates/inner. So then i cast amplify damage. Now all these spirits can standing annih. So I'm standing annih/mass, they are standing annih mass, and its every bapting round. So you can't sit and tell me how much damage scouts do and just ignore the obvious.

Nerf thieves too. I had someone do a test stab on me. Standing! I got stabbed through my last chance, it procd, and i still died.

If you remove scouts, you are removing a very cool aspect of the game for some people. The old rangers were boring as shit and could be done to just auto assist holding a bow just like scouts.

So nerf thieves, nerf shamans, nerf druids, nerf clerics with gates that can pick locks, nerf dk legend thrust damage, nerf lay/drain timers for dk paladins at legend, because it comes back to fast, Just remove the entire legend system. That will fix most balancing issues.

What a joke.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: eddiex on October 27, 2015, 02:36:28 PM
A lot of things need tweaking, but I think they wanted groups to be able to 5 man everything based on population. If that's the case then dunmir on 4 is a step in that direction. Scouts are boring as hell as a class. I'm not going to argue with those who fetishize them. That's like telling gramm that ancient green sword isn't a dragon orb level item.

As for character automation, there is no realistic solution beyond removing competition as a central aspect of the game. And that doesn't even completely solve the issue.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Jorquin on October 27, 2015, 04:55:21 PM
Quote
Scouts are boring as hell as a class. I'm not going to argue with those who fetishize them.

i would agree with this, except i think i deleted the argument you are referring to from my memory because it was structured in a rude and condescending manner.
Title: Re: Let's nerf DKs some more.
Post by: snax on October 27, 2015, 10:15:17 PM
I promise I played once.  And this wipe I could count on a defensive stance thrust silencing a foe about 1 out of 80,000 times.  Meaning honestly this: As I encroached on rank 30, a defense thrust had yet to silence a single mob. . . .EVER.  OVER more than 100 hours of active playing and thrusting.  So yeah, nerf the damage also, because hell, they can almost thrust/elite gear 108 dam in a single round [[stance:offensive Thrust Prime 2d8 3/3 off 3d6 0/1  +7 dam on naked opponent single round calculations as far as I remember]] (which is almost as good as the half stacked thieves who can stab me standing in defensive stance for over 700), and by half stacked... (i mean less than 8 dam)....yeah...anyways rant rant....I won't play yet.  Let me know when I'm a 31 and I'll play again!
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Jorake on October 28, 2015, 01:25:45 PM
Well my rant was a bit condescending. And.. if it hurt your feelings. Then I am deeply deeply.. no no I still don't care. Reread a few post above for reasons why.

Leave the shit in the game, in the game. Add more if you want. But don't take content out. Balance it. Tweak it. But taking out an entire aspect of the game isn't the answer.

The nerf stick is there for nerfing, not nuking. Knock it off
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Ericj on October 28, 2015, 02:03:44 PM
A geared paladin is a great tank, full legend ranks, steelskin and good gear.  Barbarians though are still top in my opinion.

Regarding the power of classes, the player base is low so who cares if zones can be 5 manned?  It gives folks who don't have 10man or large clan ability to play still.  It does enable those who do have large 10man clan/groups to steam role things but they should be able to find other zones that might slow them down a bit.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: walters on October 29, 2015, 07:01:52 AM
sounds like its settled then remove scouts and give mages rescue.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Morte on November 03, 2015, 10:18:59 PM
should remove thief class they are the ones to broken. replace thief class with bard, ranger. then add renegade mage.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Lashric on November 03, 2015, 10:37:56 PM
Barbarians have into the breech...enough said.
Title: Re: Weakest Tankish Zoning Class in the Game
Post by: Malaki on November 04, 2015, 07:26:11 PM
My casters are better tanks than scouts, cause i roll them like tanks...