Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: corey on December 23, 2012, 04:59:15 PM

Title: Multiing
Post by: corey on December 23, 2012, 04:59:15 PM
So... it's been 3-4 times now since the wipe where I thought of coming back and playing for a little bit, and then it strikes me time and time again - no one is playing (figuratively speaking). You can't do anything when you're on the game once you're leveled. Coming back after the first 2-3 months of a wipe (if that, nowadays) is like grinding to max level in an MMO knowing you're not going to partake in any of the endgame.

Are there any plans to allow multiing at some point in the future after a wipe's "mojo" has been sapped from it? (~3 months, at discretion of the 36 in charge during said wipe).

#1 it's well known that it does happen already
#2 it will help out the newbies who haven't been able to explore on their own or want to learn specific things but don't have a chance when the mud is in full swing
#3 a lot of the veterans, I'm sure, are like me - sometimes they feel nostalgic and feel like just killing some text dragons, but have no outlet

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Super Tacoman on December 24, 2012, 05:30:16 PM
im imagining 10 groups of finnbots randoming the mud
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: corey on December 24, 2012, 07:45:35 PM
im imagining 10 groups of finnbots randoming the mud

Even so, and that being an extreme, they're going to random the other five people playing?
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Chisul on December 24, 2012, 09:45:39 PM
Don't you mean ten MORE groups do Finn bots randoming the mud?
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Super Tacoman on December 24, 2012, 10:52:01 PM
well if it could somehow be restricted to 1 multi per person id be all for it.  its near impossible to find groups as a neutral and soloing is stupid.

if every person was controlling a 10 man group however, i think it would get retarded fast.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: corey on December 25, 2012, 11:54:10 AM
well if it could somehow be restricted to 1 multi per person id be all for it.  its near impossible to find groups as a neutral and soloing is stupid.

if every person was controlling a 10 man group however, i think it would get retarded fast.

But retarded for who...no one would be playing at the time this is permitted into a wipe.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Jorquin on December 25, 2012, 10:11:42 PM
the amount of people playing shrinks every wipe, i think the only reason botting isnt legal now is theres no way to police how many bots each person has

once you allow one, whats to stop ten? its just a matter of not wanting to open the floodgates, i think
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: corey on December 26, 2012, 08:25:04 AM
the amount of people playing shrinks every wipe, i think the only reason botting isnt legal now is theres no way to police how many bots each person has

once you allow one, whats to stop ten? its just a matter of not wanting to open the floodgates, i think

..BUT NO ONE'S PLAYING...

I don't understand why it matters.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Super Tacoman on December 31, 2012, 04:11:41 AM
there are only 5 people on during the slow times but there are still 15-20 in peak hours (+multis).  even if no extra people come back that would be 20 ten man groups all pkilling or doing the same high level zones.

it would also completely kill grouping.  why group when you can rank up 10 characters at once?

1 or 2 multis is plenty!
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Malthros on January 21, 2013, 08:57:16 AM
the amount of people playing shrinks every wipe, i think the only reason botting isnt legal now is theres no way to police how many bots each person has

once you allow one, whats to stop ten? its just a matter of not wanting to open the floodgates, i think

People have used heal and tank bots for god knows how long (and I've had people bitch at me for not using auto-rescue triggers) with no penalty. 

Allowing multis won't really solve the problem that keeps away new people.  Having to play regularly to not lose your gear (deadbeat/decays) and risk losing everything when you die isn't appealing to people that can go play dozens of other games for free instead, one of those being a D&D mmo specifically.

e: Balance of things like Nightmare hasn't helped much either.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Ericj on January 21, 2013, 03:24:24 PM
Malthros,

I think you are spot on but also, just look at the game in general.  Not as many new players due to the large amount of games out there.  I'm only 26 but when I started 13 years ago, I didn't have many online options.  So arctic has its back against the wall already.  In terms of keeping older players, I think the game itself, even with certain fixes can have a shelf life.  Folks get older, more obligations, less time and might have already solved/beaten most the challenges mud as to offer. 

I think changes are good and if it brings back players, even for a short period of time that is great, but we have to realize we will never bring in as many new players as we are bound to lose.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Slunt on February 14, 2013, 09:30:58 AM
I have been thinking about playing again. The playerbase is really small. Most of my friends in CORE are done for the wipe. I have logged maybe 4 hours in the last 2 weeks rolling characters but as i come back i think it would be really fun to be able to Multi. I know higher ups have commented on this topic in the past, but maybe its time to reconsider this rule.
Title: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on February 16, 2013, 08:07:08 PM
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Slunt on February 16, 2013, 08:27:59 PM
In response to the slippery slope statement i would say currently people can log 1 character and have access to the same proxy and clever scripting techniques so i don't think it will be any different from that standpoint.

My opinion is that there is a shrinking playerbase allowing someone to have an additional character allows them to do more zones in the game with out the need of a group. A group which may or may not be available.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: RaVaN on February 17, 2013, 12:57:22 PM
  My response to this is that this game has been made exceedingly easier in the past few wipes with Legend, Ranks, Class Revamp, and so forth.  The playerbase is not in my opinion at the point where multi-botting should be instituted as a standard of the game. The zones where you needed 8-10 in the past have become 2-4 man in many cases or even solo for the right classes.  There are still a few zones where you need a large group to be successful as it should be.  In no way is the player base so crippled that in order to do those zones, you need to have x bots.  What it amounts is laziness on the part of the players to make friends/share information with clanmembers or to actually see what zones you can do with less people or even grouping unknowns.  People are ninjaing zones all over the place. 

  The fact is at this point, not finding enough people to do x zone is entirely an attitude problem of players NOT a lack of players problem.  Basicly, the "I don't like x because of what it did to me 20 years ago" attitude.  Or for some reason, you think X unknown is a spy going to steal your shines.  Get over it!  The fact is there are so few people that really will pk you these days that the paranoia retardedness should have died years ago.  The only clan that hasn't had that paranoia of late is MINE...and they been grouping and helping just about anyone that isn't a complete moron/dick and they have been doing this for wipes.

  That being said, I am just as guilty as everyone else since there are quite a few people in the game I really don't have a real use for.  I do however, make an effort.  People just need to realize this is a game...have fun and play with people.  Players are the best way to maintain the playerbase.  The more paranoid you are, the more you are a dick for the sake of being a dick, the more you whine about this person did/said/acted x to you, the more you leave people out in the cold for gear hoarding or information hoarding...the more players we lose because the PLAYERS have made the game un-fun and creates a lack of the same.  Why?  Because most of us are getting old...and as we get older we have enough drama in real life that dealing with drama in what should be entertaining is just stupid.     

  To prove Hoss's point of "I'll quit if you don't do what I want":

  I WILL quit the day botting is made legal.  The only exception to this would be an addition of some mercenary mechanic that is an ingame mechanic that allows anyone to use regardless of level of knowledge in the game or programming skills.  Allowing botting only makes this game more exclusive than it already is.

Anyhow...end of rant.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Dagda on February 17, 2013, 01:31:40 PM
Great points RaVan.

I don't believe botting should be allowed.  I think it would be helpful however, if there was an imm with the time and skills necessary to do this, to introduce 'hirelings' that are smarter charmies that help (minorly) to fulfill a grouping role.  This would be especially useful for lowbies trying to level up.  Of course, this type of time for an imm possibly puts this out of the range of likelihood, but I would think that it would solve the 'need' that folks have for multiing.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: RaVaN on February 17, 2013, 05:29:16 PM
"Of course, this type of time for an imm possibly puts this out of the range of likelihood, but I would think that it would solve the 'need' that folks have for multiing."(Dagda)

  I would disagree.  The amount of time immortals want to put into this game would tend to be Real Life available time and The Players. 

  Basicly, it boils down to this:

  This game feeds off itself.  If you have a fun playerbase that polices it's self and refrains from general asshattery and just enjoy this great free game that has been made...the immortals WANT to improve that game fun and more people want to be immortals to add their game creations.  The more people are just plain asses to the immortals, incessantly whine/gripe/complain/accuse/abuse to those same immortals about things the less those immortals want to do anything.  The fun needs to be there for both immortals and players.  Without that fun, the game dies...either by the immortals moving away from the main playerbase and doing what they think is "right" versus being involved and seeing where the playerbase wants to go.  The more drama the less time they have the less the game grows and the more restrictive crap gets added to the game and less fun things added, and the less other people want to immortal to deal with that same crap year after year.

  Aristox and Hoss both have pointed this out before.  They are open to ideas, they want to see the game grow...but there is a right way of trying to get an idea looked at and a wrong way.  There has been a lot of examples of players going about it and just being dicks about it.  The same thing goes with problems in the game that occur.  The absolute best way is to have a concise well thought out idea and present it in a nondickish way.  It'll either fly or it won't.  I used to think Hoss saying TL.DR was just a dismissive jerk thing to say, now that I put some rational thought into it and what was being written...it's really the only way to do business.  The majority of things people post can be boiled down very simply instead of the tomes some of us type up each post.

  That being said, one thing I really would like to see implemented for immortals at all levels is more interaction type stuff for fun. Was thinking this the other week when Aristox came on and heal buffed the mud I shouted something about "Where were all the evil immortals the harmed people when they logged on"  and Aristox poofed and harmed me (healed me after) and said "There you happy!" or something similar.  Fun stuff and I think it would be fun for all involved if there were more silliness like that.  The problem always stems however, when people just can't take a joke or accept that things happen sometimes...then accusations and stupidity reigns...the game stops being fun on all levels and players and immortals start bleeding off.

Anyhow...just some things for people to think about.


   

 
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Jorquin on February 18, 2013, 04:01:39 AM
bot armies are highly ineffective, i'm yet to see any mass of scripted bots that are in any way efficient

they usually end up dead, and often are inferior to real players. quite often the really good players refrain from this behaviour.

i'm sure if i wanted i could make a ten man and go zoning with a bot posse, maybe i'd get caught or maybe not.  the fact is though i don't want to do it.

if i had absolutely noone to play with, i'd make one character through a proxy and just play two characters at once with no triggers or scripts.

my opinion is that any amount of characters you can play by hand is legit, playing 2 characters at once takes practice. playing 3 takes skill, and playing four is nearly impossible to be anything but awful and obvious. its when triggers, scripting and bots become involved that the banhammer needs to be brought down. sometimes the autobots just aren't the good guys.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on February 18, 2013, 09:13:46 AM
I added a poll to the thread, and encourage you to spread the word to players to vote.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Alecto on February 18, 2013, 09:51:19 AM
I think perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way.  Multi/botting is already going on, rather than making it legal, keep it illegal, but control the sentencing for doing it.

multi-ing/botting with 2 chars: 1 week for both chars in the abyss
3 chars: 4 weeks in the abyss
4+ chars: auto delete all characters

That way if someone feels like risking doing a little multi-ing the penalty is (relatively) minor for using only 1, but an army of FinBots (tm) would be permanently removed.  Players can decide how much they want to risk it, and the powers-that-be can make their own decisions about enforcement.  (i.e. some guy with two level 3s in the solace sewers can be ignored, while someone botting Sleet or pk-ing every other active can get the maximum sentence)
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on February 18, 2013, 10:00:32 AM
Quote
Multi/botting is already going on, rather than making it legal, keep it illegal, but control the sentencing for doing it.
This is exactly the thing I do not want the staff wasting time on, being a police force. If we allowed multis at any tier it would need to be player-policed.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Grifter on February 18, 2013, 10:11:33 AM
I'm not sure if it would be too hard to implement, but I also like the idea of some sort of in-game hirelings/henchmen, but I would tend more toward them being NPC followers than to them having to be paid for. 

At Level 10, it's conceivable that a character has earned themselves enough of a reputation as a heroic rat and earthworm slayer that lowly NPCs might be anxious to join them in their quest to rid the land of slightly larger rats and worms - perhaps even a dreaded gully dwarf or two.

If these were limited to one per person, counted as a member toward the maximum group size, and were limited to zoning only, I think they could prove helpful in rounding out groups when no one is online, while still not replacing the experience of real grouping when there are enough people on.

These could be available either from the Inn or from a nearby room bar, and be available in a few of the less complicated guild choices ( cleric, druid, warrior, barbarian, thief, & mage), be given training equipment to start, but with the option of equipping real gear, and have level scaled skills training and spells (all guildmaster spells, no book/charm/tablet spells), and have a static mid-range abiliity score array, depending on guild choice, they could be very useful without breaking the game.

They could disappear if the player dies, recall when the player does, and instantly drop all items and quit service if the player attacks or is attacked by other players.

This would allow a lone cleric to blind/stab for experience, provide some mediocre bashing to help with a self-healing mob, or give a lone scout some cure critical wounds or a tank to get through the toughest few beasties in a zone, without breaking the balance of the game too much.

It could also act as a packmule, with the built-in risk of an enemy clan or random pker attacking you and making your NPC drop all your loot at their feet and run away.

I think that, with some testing to make sure they are power balanced, it would add a lot to the game for people that just want to log in briefly and run a zone, without necessarily taking away from anyone running real groups or upsetting the balance of clanwars.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: btown on February 18, 2013, 10:16:30 AM
I don't like botting or multing, but I think the fact that others can do it and get away with it due to better programming or proxy or whatever, if you cant police it  just allow it

I know I will personally make a unknown bot clan just to kill other bots... so sounds like fun to me!

All the best clans have botted to get to where they are, MINE BSP FINN clan, all main leaders bots. leaves smaller clans at a huge disadvantage. 

I think maybe let it be legal for the rest of the wipe just to see how it will transform the mud, it could bring back huge playerbase since you will be able to roll your own healers and do your own zoning/exploring without relying on the other 20people who still play this game to follow.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Willoe on February 18, 2013, 10:17:47 AM
I personally voted yes for a couple of reasons.
A. Like it's already been stated, it is already happening, those that are good at it are almost impossible to catch, and frankly its not worth the time to try. Time would be better spent trying to make this game better then investing time in punishing/policing people/possibly losing more players.
B. The player base is low, and being able to possibly play multiple characters will help zoning continue. I know the argument here is that then multi's/bots could take spots of real players in a group, and I can tell you right now that I would MUCH rather have a real person then some crap bot in any of my groups. I'm sure most leaders will agree.
C. Those that are doing it now and aren't getting caught have a HUGE and unfair advantage to those of us who are following the rules. By allowing it, it can level the playing field for people. When people vote I urge you to consider that this is ALREADY happening, and it will continue to happen, the question is do those that chose to follow the rules want to even out the playing field and maybe bring back some fun competition/pvp to this game!

Anyway just ranting at this point, I hope everyone votes.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: eli on February 18, 2013, 11:56:50 AM
I voted yes. Multiing happens anyway and I agree with Willoe that those that do it now without getting caught have an unfair advantage. I'm on a several month break at the moment but would likely play more if I was able to multi. I may not have the scripting prowess to multi well but it would be something new for me in Arctic which for someone who has played since 1997 is awesome to think about.

This reminds me of marijuana laws. Yes, its illegal but a percentage of the population doesn't care. Just like arctic with multiing. You can pass laws against it but it likely won't stop people. Sure here and there someone might get caught then damned or deleted but those are the folks that are smoking the joint out in the open not the ones who have devised an elaborate filter to change the smell of the smoke and confuse law enforcement (Hoss).

Hope that made sense!
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: reed23 on February 18, 2013, 12:37:06 PM
What is our real problem?  Is the issue we are faced with is that multiing is rampant so we just want to make it legal, or is the issue that there is 0 playerbase and we want to allow multiing because there are no groups out there.  If the latter is the real issue, I would suggest going the charmie rout.  I think it may not be a bad idea to have a charmie shop where you are able to buy a main-tank, healer, etc.  Make it 5k per charmie, and the most charmies you can buy at 1 time is 1-2.  Once they are dead, they are dead.  Make it class specific with skills and everything.  Make it semi gear dependant so you would have to gear the charmie.  Once the charmie is dead, its dead, and you would have to go buy another.  I would not allow the charmies to be involved in PK.  It would be only for zoning purposes.  It would require some skill/thought as you are essentially controlling 2 classes (your char and the charmie) through 1 char (i.e. subject to lag/etc. constraints).  This would allow a 3 man group to essentially have a 6 or 9 man group depending on the limit per charmie.  Charmies would also have no entering/kw constraings (as corpses, etc. do now).  Last thought on this, I would maybe phase in the charmie situation throughout a wipe.  First 3 months of wipe would only allow 1 charmie.  If the mud was dead 6 months into the wipe (like now), maybe allow 2.

If the problem is we are giving in to the multiing situation, I would strongly suggest caping it at 2 per IP address.  This would prevent someone having 100 lvl 10 mages, walk in a room, l.bolt a nobash char and walla, gear.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on February 18, 2013, 12:56:45 PM
Great reading so far. A few points:

  1. @eli: of course an Arctic player connects it to weed, so typical.
  2. Mercenary/Charmie system: I do not hate this idea, it has merit. I think a few online MMO games have done this well by allowing you to select a heal, dps, tank option as a side kick. I will throw this out there before you all get too excited, this option wouldn't be coming anytime soon(tm). As you know Aristox and I are working on the lube project and I would not want to implement another half-assed system into the game (see most changes in the last 3 years).
  3. What issue are we trying to solve? Good question, at the moment I think we are trying to solve both.
    • This wipe hasn't been the most exciting (see Ilya's dick count), adding to the attrition of active players. I don't however think that allowing multis is a permanent solution to this, more of just a little bandage.
    • Players using multis is going to continue to occur, regardless of whatever system we put in place. I will reflect on this more after the poll has completed and your votes have been counted.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: muddeer on February 18, 2013, 12:58:06 PM
I voted no.  To me, what made Arctic special was that the best players were the ones most knowledge about the game:  The people who put in the time and the effort to learn the zones and figure out the game mechanics.  I rather not have the best players be determined by who can code the best bots.

The way I see it, the single biggest problem right now is the lack of new players coming in.  I think you'll keep more veterans interested staying if there's more new blood flowing in.  And the biggest reason for the lack of new players, other than the competition from other games, is that fewer people are playing lower level characters; there's no one for newbies to group with and to help them.

Of course, existence of the rank system is what's causing this.  But there are other smaller reasons as well.  It used to be that after too many deaths, due to hp loss, characters eventually became "trash."  So you had leveled up another one.  And with death penalties being so harsh and the game mechanics being more difficult, it also took more time to level up; you had to spend more time at lower levels.  Yes, people complain about the trash pkers and the xp grind.  But the player base and game mechanics can have some control over the trash pkers.  And to new players, all those low and mid level zones are not "grinds."  They are new and  fun.  Moreover, the more you know about the game, the faster you level anyways.

So, I'm suggesting that Arctic get rid of the rank system and bring back the tougher death penalties/game mechanics.

edit:  I'm not saying this will make Arctic as big as it once was,; not with all those other games around.

edit2:  oh, and also get rid of youth spell; the aging of character was another reason for leveling a new one
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on February 18, 2013, 01:53:35 PM
Stay on target red leader....aka im removing off topic posts.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Super Tacoman on February 18, 2013, 02:53:36 PM
it might be hard to believe but many people who spend a lot of time with online gaming are extremely anti-social.  i love arctic but i have little/no interest in joining a clan and instead just play with a small group of real-life friends.  one of my friends in particular flat out refuses to group with anyone else.  i dont think we are unique. 

arctic is largely a numbers game.  we have been targetted and killed by clans in every single wipe we have ever played.  including apoc and vm this wipe.  a myth even threatened to highlight me evil if i didnt tell him all my alts.  i would LOVE to be able to fight back against these clans, but with our numbers its impossible.  allowing some limited multiing would open up the game for us in a huge way and as i said, i think there are Many other players like us.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Chisul on February 18, 2013, 07:21:01 PM
I like the idea. As for the whole "he who know more rules" argument...given the current state of the mud, it is very difficult for mid-quality players to learn new zones. Usually a mid-quality player can fill a role in the group, but is not skilled enough to lead it.

Zones are cleared so quickly by zone leaders that it is very difficult to learn the zone simply by playing it. Even after going over the log several times.

I like the idea of multi because it will open up new areas to explore when others are reluctant to "go exploring". If you doubt this, try shouting for a group of adventurers to go explore with you. Also, just see how fast people recall and regroup once they figure out you are leading from a log...or worse yet, reading the room descriptions to figure the zone out.

"Swap me"
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: SteveO on February 18, 2013, 08:56:32 PM
I think in regards to people saying what made them play back in the day or why they started should stop and think where are 90% of the people I used to play with? The answer is not mud, it's either life, wife other (graphic) games. You need to stop living in the past.

I vote yes. I do not currently bot and you might notice the constant shouting for people to group, it's too bad when I log ( and I'm on quite a bit) and theres never anyone on and you can either find 1 tank and if lucky a damager (not likely) let alone find a random tank and healer...and I'm in one of the bigger clans of the wipe(MINE). I can say honestly if things don't change in somewhat of a near future I'll likely not play either (I'm not saying change it or I'm quitting) but, the facts are simple how many times do I need to log spend 30 mins shouting for people to come group having an odd thief or mage tell to me and thats about it, before I just stop logging?
Yea sure I'll probably always come back and race but after the first two months of the wipe the game dies and most of the old players who  returned to race for gear are gone back to deeprent, back to WoW, back to LoL, back to....

If I could play a healer and a damager for example atleast I could form with the other few people who are online and people could play the game instead of jerking off afk in the inn all the time.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Gnua on February 18, 2013, 09:33:36 PM
I like Reed's idea of improved npc/charmie/mercenaries/pet/sidekick more than multies. I'd also rather see multi-classing rather than multies. That being said, the status quo of having rules that aren't being efficiently enforced doesnt seem right either.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Cyren on February 18, 2013, 09:34:43 PM
No Bots.
HUGE penalties for botting.
BIG penalties for clans who knowingly group with bots.

Add mercenaries. Limit it to Cleric, Warrior, Scout (and maybe Thief)
I favour mercenaries over bots because it gives everyone an equal AI base and relies on playing skill in game to make them good, bad or otherwise (not scripting skill).
Mercenaries take 15% of all coins loads, plus an upfront fee of 500 coins/level of mercenary.
You can't hire a mercenary higher than your own level.
Each mercenary starts with an average skill/spell set but can be trained, given equipment or spells
Mercenaries won't engage in pk.
If you die, mercenary waits in zone at corpse (unless killed by mobs) for a max of 30 mins.
If mercenary dies, can be resurrected for a fee

My 2 cents

Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Felix on February 18, 2013, 09:37:36 PM
For full disclosure, I voted yes on this issue - but with the following thoughts.

I have played this game off and on since its inception, served a brief period as a low ranking member of the staff before real the hammer of real life came down, and have once again dipped my toes into Arctics chilly waters.  I think the same can be said for many on this board, and those that remain playing the game - we have decades of the hate/love experience with this game.

Arctic exists for pleasure, pure and simple.  I have neither the time nor inclination to become a full fledged member of a clan I cannot at this time give proper time and attention to.  Yet I still thirst for the exploration, the quest for knowledge and secrets that this game has in spades.  We all know, however, that finding a group willing to be led by someone "just learning" - and potentially throwing away hours of your hard work - is nearly impossible.  For this selfish reason, I say yes - only to allow me to play the game on my terms and granting me access to areas to expand my knowledge.

The flip side, and one that we all need to acknowledge, is that this game still exists due to the love and enjoyment by those at the top of the food chain - the imms.  It is only by their investment of time -  and money -  that this game still has a home, and I'll wager that the instant Arctic becomes something they dread logging into is the last day it will be a home for all of us.  The pandora's box of "policing" multiplayers threatens to be just such a thing.

What is missing is a level of mutual trust.  For as long as I have known this game, players have distrusted the imms, and every good imm knows a pc is just half a heartbeat away from doing something illegal.  What this presents is an opportunity - on a trial basis - to show that we as a community can abide by rules set out by the imms.  If it doesn't work, so be it - what have we really  lost?

Lastly, we stand here at the twilight of Arctic.  The sun has not yet set - yet there will be no great influx of new players, no resurgence of the old veterans coming back in droves.  It will be like me and those like me - coming back to relive old memories, have some comfort and enjoyment away from the real world, and having fun doing it.  For pleasure.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Stride on February 18, 2013, 10:40:36 PM
I have marked no.  people need to accept and enjoy the game as is.  I agree with the charmie/pet/mercenary thing.  Have it be possibly quest driven/rent a cop type thing?  I miss the old days of the gods coming down hard on people who don't follow the rules.  And  if they have been doing that, they need to have a board or someplace that they announce it.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Jorquin on February 18, 2013, 11:30:59 PM
i voted yes. bots are easy to slaughter anyway.

frankly i find it amusing that most of the people who are saying no are people who barely play anymore, and are living in a time warp.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Rhys on February 19, 2013, 01:27:12 AM
Voted yes - hate shouting for non existant groups as well.

Only concern is the imbalance created in PK for multiers vs those who choose not to multi (there might be some). I think the multiing should be for zoning purposes only but I am not sure how to best police / implement this.

Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: octan on February 19, 2013, 07:06:33 AM
I voted YES because I hate underdogs!

-OC
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Ericj on February 19, 2013, 08:25:44 AM
I have to lean to Daniel's argument on this.  When we are warring someone and you know the enemy group has 2 or 3 bots in it, you should be able to just roll them.  Even the best scripted bots have flaws, and for folks botting without a script, how effectivley can they play two characters during a pk battle?

I also agree with Ilya that any leader wants real life blood in a group over a bot, but the only issue I see is this.  Would some folks kick their own bot out of the group to group some random neutral who is shouting for a group?  If folks are not willing to part with some bot they are trying to rank to help neutrals, then we have issues.

This comes back to the main argument of where we stand as a game and it is up to the players to help.  Basically try to treat others as you want to be treated, we all remember those days of taking our first steps outside the Solace gates, can be a scary place :)
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Jorquin on February 19, 2013, 10:01:00 AM
after re-reading things in this thread i see things about "wishing the gods would come down hard on people who break the rules" and "no bots, punish people severely".

often times i log on and see that there are 6-7 people online. at peak times there might be 40 at the absolute maximum. if you were to stand by these statements, that 40 people maximum would probably drop to 30, and instead of 6-7 in my evening (australia ftw) there would probably be 3-4. say you punish some playing group of about 4 people, that has 2 people in it that play 2 characters each. this playing group may have a total of 6 active characters - 4 of which are now gone. all of these people quit playing. who does this benefit? the answer is noone. i would suggest that anyone who promotes the "go all medieval on their asses" mentality does not have this games best interests at heart, and either has their own self serving agenda or lacks the foresight to understand the consequences that an all out witch hunt would have.

as for the mercenary/charmie/pet thing this seems like a poor idea. charmies are useless at the best of times and all they would really represent is built in scripted ai bots crafted by the staff, which might i add would also increase the time this lube project would take (since someone has to actually design these things, right?) - leading to an even more stagnant game, and even more quitters.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Mike on February 19, 2013, 10:52:40 AM
Is this really a question? For years I've heard nothing but "botting/multying ruins the game". When did the staff become hypocritical? What's the goal of allowing bots? To make the game SEEM like it has more players than it actually does? I prefer quality over quantity. Why on earth would anyone play when it's possible to have 3 players, log a 30 man? They could brute force any zone ot one shot any player. 3 or 4 wipes ago people did nothing but complain about how annoying ben/reed/bryton were. Now really,  picture them with a 30 man. if your answer is "well ill just log my 90 man and kill them" then you're playing the wrong game. Arctic is about finding people you work well with and exploring zones/quests/storylines etc. Not about 100 bots PKing in Solace square.

Hoss, if this is your idea of improving the game you need to get your priorities straight.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Gramm on February 19, 2013, 12:16:08 PM
Im more worried about what the game will become, whos to stop full time pkers from just sitting in a norecall room with a botted basher waiting to step into the room and have his way with your face during summon lag? I recommend giving us 100 + nosummon items if u are going to honestly consider giving tyrants any more power than they already have.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Kragg on February 19, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
Corey, everyone's aware there aren't many people playing.  The fact there are so few players is the real problem and that problem has lots of factors.

My opinion is this change won't solve any problems and will just create some new ones.  I, in fact, think its real trouble.

For all you dorks voting yes, I think you will change your mind when you get steamrolled a couple of times by couple of hundred level ones.  How do you (yes you, see below) choose to enforce what in that environment?

If you want unreasonable zone reach, play a shaman.  Or, be at least pretend to be discreet as per the current situation.

The fact is, enforcement is a grind for staff and player alike and the point of this place for all of us is to have fun.  Players are to play and staff are here to improve the experience.

Hope that was worth the read.

Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: thephil on February 19, 2013, 12:26:24 PM
i voted yes.

  ive logged on this wipe and been the only person on.  not that it matters.  there is no grouping to be had when people really are on.  if you are trying to level up a character from 1 to 30 right now and 20 people are on, there is maybe 1 other person in the game who isnt 30 yet and unfortunately he is a level 17 good mage while you are lvl 25 evil warrior. 

  now if you can eventually solo up to level 30 it doesnt matter.  there is still no grouping to be had.  why would a group add a warrior with bad equipment who doesnt know the zone to their group?  i am going to do 1/5th the damage of the other characters and only slow them down.  the only possible answer is pity and i dont want to slow them down anyway.  i gave up on shouting for groups.

  if i could play more characters my problems would be solved.  lets make this happen.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: reed23 on February 19, 2013, 12:41:12 PM
All you extremists, I am very sure the Imms are not going to allow more than 1 or 2 multi's per IP address.  And for you who think that this is going to have a huge impact on PK, you are nuts.  Allowing people to play 2 or 3 per IP is not changing much, it is just legalizing what is already happening.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Super Tacoman on February 19, 2013, 12:52:56 PM
Or, be at least pretend to be discreet as per the current situation.

so im stuck soloing if i follow the rules while someone else is playing a 4 man using proxies, iphone, other tricks?  but since he is being discreet i guess its okay.

daniel made an excellent point too.  you cant even punish these people without hurting the game.  if some immortal catches them and abysses all their chars for a month for example, they will very likely just quit for the wipe.  they dont want to go back to just playing one character after they have had the power of 2 or 3 or whatever.  and when they quit it causes a chain reaction.  now their friends have less people to play with and they are more likely to quit or bring in bots of their own.

i really believe the best solution is to legalize 1 bot for each person.  then the cheaters can discreetly play 6 chars instead of 3 but at least i wont have to solo. 
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on February 19, 2013, 12:55:16 PM
light pruning complete
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: HapHazard on February 19, 2013, 01:05:22 PM
I posted this once before, but I don't see it anymore so I'll say it again.  Is it feasible to tweak the very high end mobs/zones down some and reduce the max group size to 5 or 6?  With legendary characters and diverse rank purchases, a small group can already achieve the same now as a group twice it's size could 3-4 wipes ago.  How often are 10 man groups even used these days?  If the size of the group was reduced, it could put a damper on the amount of multiing that is already going on.  I doubt that 1 person who is botting several characters at a time would be attempting to do 2 seperate zones at once, and with groups being twice as easy to fill, the use of bots wouldn't be as needed.  This would also enable the more average players who choose not to zone outside their circle of friends to still be able to explore the top tier stuff.  Most of the game wouldn't even need to be modified to make this compromise, only the extremely challenging areas.  People may be more excited to explore things as well, knowing that things are actually possible on lesser numbers, not to mention the followers of the group could be more of a part of the exploration, rather than 7-9 people sitting idle while their leader reads room descriptions and tries keywords. I personally enjoy being in an 8-10 man group, but they are much harder to manage with people constantly AFKing unannounced, and having half as many groupies makes things much easier on a leader.  This would likely not be a "quick" fix because of the possible work that would need to be done to dumb down some mobs/zones, but now (and in the future, when there are possibly even less players) it could compensate for the lack of players without having to fill group slots with bots, scripts and more charmies.  Just an idea.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: btown on February 19, 2013, 01:07:54 PM
Why hasn't Aristox posted on this matter?  I want to hear Aristox POV and that will likely help me decide what i think is best..  can we please get Aristox input?
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: RaVaN on February 19, 2013, 01:38:37 PM
  @Kragg /agree

  The very idea of this just wearies me.  The fact that botting was given any sense of legitimacy by an Overlord by even pretending to think it might be a idea worth listening too wearies me even more. Broken down:

  If you allow 1-2 multis you allow 10-100.  There is no line, just catering to those who have consistently broken the rules for years...in some cases have admitted it, which are some of the biggest supporters of doing so and catering to those who have always wished to break the rules and been too scared to or too stupid. 

  If you allow multis, you are allowing botting by virtue of the beast.  People will be running scripts and will be successful at it since now they can play with it in the open. 

  This will in turn lead to the zones just being overrun with bot armies meaning less gear/ranks for anyone not doing the same.

  By this time, legitimate players will have left...if they all don't leave as soon as this is allowed...further decimating the player base.  Not only that, there will be NO new players since the game will have moved into such an arcane point that only those on now will be able to play this game.

  Basically you get a dead game and faster than if you hadn't given this STUPID baptING TOPIC legitimacy.


  That being said, in order for this to every work certain things would have to be done to the game to make it even remotely viable.

#1.  Add Opt NOPK                   Now, no worries about policing bot armies.
#2.  Instance Zones                  Now people can run their bots armies to their heart's content.
#3.  Make all gear unlimited      People can gear up as many bot armies as they want
#4.  Remove Rent costs             Now people don't need to worry about maintaining bots armies so they can play whenever
#5.  Create bot scripts all can use    Keeps the playing field at least somewhat playable to new players/returning


  @Hoss

  "I would not want to implement another half-assed system into the game"(Hoss)
 

  Allowing multying is just another half-assed system without major in-game changes and you know this.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on February 19, 2013, 01:58:39 PM
@ravan: Lets get something straight before you drive too far down the path you are headed. I am not for or against what is being discussed in this thread, I am for having open discussion. There are no sacred cows in this sandbox, nothing should be 'off limits' to discuss as long as it pertains to the game. I appreciate your feedback on the topic, and trust me I will evaluate your wearies on this topic very closely.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Aristox on February 19, 2013, 02:44:41 PM
Well done Hoss.

Now we know who all the cheaters are: anyone that voted yes.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Gnua on February 19, 2013, 04:51:14 PM
Well done Hoss.

Now we know who all the cheaters are: anyone that voted yes.

If I were multiing, I would vote no to preserve my advantage over the simpletons who follow the rules and to make myself look like an upstanding citizen. Just like if I were running a weed racket, I would oppose the legalization of marijuana.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: corey on February 19, 2013, 05:23:30 PM
I'm glad I logged into the forum today.

Every so often I feel like logging in and leveling a char for one reason or another. One of my pet peeves is inefficiency. I HATE waiting for health / etc, and this always ends up limiting me to playing whatever class is the most efficient at the time.

For me it would be more leveling / doing stuff on my own in the game world. I hate relying on others.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Dagda on February 19, 2013, 05:41:30 PM
@ravan - finally some payback for each and every one of your posts that have wearied the rest of us over the years.

If you allow 1-2 multis you allow 10-100.  There is no line

i dont see how you get to that.  why couldnt it be limited to 1 multi?  it should be no harder to limit it to 1 multi than it already is to limit it to 0.  and if you can limit it to one multi then the rest of your post is just nonsense.

How he gets this is that one of the requirements of this was set by Hoss.  He does not want the imms to be a police force having to enforce rules that are complex.  A simple, no multis rule is enforceable if you can catch a person at it.  A simple multis allowed is enforceable.  Saying 1-2 multis allowed isn't enforceable as your burden of proof becomes much higher.  It is either ALL or none.  I would prefer none and that people learn to group more and bring others to the game.

As far as the mercenaries idea, it would be complex to code but it would be much more useful than a charmie and much more standardized than a bot.  The issue with bots is that someone is beating you or losing to you based on their coding expertise (or borrowing the code from someone else), with a mercenary system you are all on the same playing field with either the good or poor coding expertise of the imm.  I would volunteer to do this, but 1) my coding is shit - that isn't my field 2) I don't have an IMM. 

Allowing multiing changes the game completely, in my opinion.  Mercenaries changes the game as well, but allows for less experienced and less knowledgeable players to have the tools to further their knowledge through exploration. 
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Jorake on February 19, 2013, 06:04:23 PM
Could there really be tweaks done like that? From what i hear Blood Shoal is th ehardest zone in game atm, and has 2 HUGE ENORMOUS BIG fights that make (from what i hear!) cyan look like a cuddly box of kittens. Could fights like this really be scaled down if group sizes were lowered? I am all for the lowering of group sizes down to 7-8. Hell. My legend shaman can damn near solo any zone a 4-5man group can. So why not.

I also am all for the multing and iI voted Yes. I did this for reasons stated above. When leveling up if you are a slow leveler or you don't have that much game knowledge to where you can just ZOOM through levels solo on whatever class you play like alot of the veteran players can, then you are hindered for sure by health regen, shitty skills, bad exp area's etc. But the situation comes in, if im allowed to play 2 characters, what stops me from playing 3? What stops me from playing 4, and just pretending that my other OTHER bot is a real dude? I think it's something that should be tested. Maybe for the remainder of this wipe. Since it seems to be almost over. Lets test multing out for the rest of this wipe and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Super Tacoman on February 19, 2013, 06:51:16 PM
How he gets this is that one of the requirements of this was set by Hoss.  He does not want the imms to be a police force having to enforce rules that are complex.  A simple, no multis rule is enforceable if you can catch a person at it.  A simple multis allowed is enforceable.  Saying 1-2 multis allowed isn't enforceable as your burden of proof becomes much higher.  It is either ALL or none.  I would prefer none and that people learn to group more and bring others to the game.

allow 1 multi per person.  then look at a group.  count how many people in the group have the same IP#.  if you get to 3, that is too many.  how complicated is that?

if you think the immortals wont be able to tell who is using too many characters because of the use of proxy servers and other such tricks, how is that any different from now?
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Dagda on February 19, 2013, 07:03:52 PM
How he gets this is that one of the requirements of this was set by Hoss.  He does not want the imms to be a police force having to enforce rules that are complex.  A simple, no multis rule is enforceable if you can catch a person at it.  A simple multis allowed is enforceable.  Saying 1-2 multis allowed isn't enforceable as your burden of proof becomes much higher.  It is either ALL or none.  I would prefer none and that people learn to group more and bring others to the game.

allow 1 multi per person.  then look at a group.  count how many people in the group have the same IP#.  if you get to 3, that is too many.  how complicated is that?

if you think the immortals wont be able to tell who is using too many characters because of the use of proxy servers and other such tricks, how is that any different from now?

How does it help to allow it, when the folks who believe they can get away with it will still use the same methods to get away with it?  Build a better mousetrap and catch those who cheat.  Don't require everyone else to stoop to their level.  Believe me, the mousetrap can be built, it just needs the right engineer.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Cyren on February 19, 2013, 10:07:20 PM
after re-reading things in this thread i see things about "wishing the gods would come down hard on people who break the rules" and "no bots, punish people severely".

often times i log on and see that there are 6-7 people online. at peak times there might be 40 at the absolute maximum. if you were to stand by these statements, that 40 people maximum would probably drop to 30, and instead of 6-7 in my evening (australia ftw) there would probably be 3-4. say you punish some playing group of about 4 people, that has 2 people in it that play 2 characters each. this playing group may have a total of 6 active characters - 4 of which are now gone. all of these people quit playing. who does this benefit? the answer is noone. i would suggest that anyone who promotes the "go all medieval on their asses" mentality does not have this games best interests at heart, and either has their own self serving agenda or lacks the foresight to understand the consequences that an all out witch hunt would have.

Yes, i have a self serving agenda. I don't want to learn to make a bot

I've seen you use bots very effectively, and I know that your bots have helped you explore a lot of zones solo. I've benefitted from your exploration when  you bring a group back to the zone. I really don't have a gripe against people using bots to extend their solo zoning or exploring.

What I have angst about is people using bot armies to pk. I know you say they are useless, etc etc, but 2 people with 2 bots is going to steamroll smaller groups too easily. Clearly that can be done now, but it requires 4 players or cheating.

I would be much more comfortable about allowing multis if bots are absolutely banned from pk, or possibly lowering group limits to 5, reworking zone balance etc, and create a situation where there are more frequently 5 person groups with 5 real people able to stand up to 1 or 2 players with bots in the slots.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: harry_beavr on February 19, 2013, 10:20:34 PM
I have been lurking, but assure you I've been playing Arctic on and off for over a decade.

-Why multi-ing?  Why are we entertaining the idea?  The pbase is too low to allow for effective grouping, therefore a possible solution exists to give players more firepower in the form of an extra character.

-From a pure numbers perspective, this is bullshit...why?  If there are 10-30 people online, theoretically you can have 1-3 end game groups going.  All you would need to do is group the existing players ya know?

-Why does this not happen?  Pbase implemented terms of engagement pertaining to clan warfare.  You are discouraged...nay, not allowed to group outside of your own kind.  To the extent that the lone wolves of random players (myself) are not allowed to group with anyone for fear of repurcussions from nearly every warring clan.  Yes, this is hyperbole, or is it?  I've also been hunted every wipe for being in the same inn as a player, buying an item for a player, having a name sort of, kind of similar to what a player had at some point 5 wipes ago.  This PK centric mindset only caters to the die hards and winning clans.

-My opinion?  You guys *points fingers all around* are the assholes that make the game unavailable for the casual/semi-dedicated gamer.  No logical person is going to log into a game to spend hours unable to progress (this is an RPG, progression is key) because their LFG's fall on deaf ears.  Nor will they log into a game where hours upon hours are wasted because they have been flagged for not knowing the exact warfare status of every single character in the game.

I love Arctic.  I'd rather it allowed multi-ing and play it with myself rather than you assholes.  Maybe this is a popular opinion among new players as well?  Off topic, but if you care-bear mud with no PK on a different port I bet Arctic would thrive there.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Kragg on February 20, 2013, 09:42:12 AM
I have no interest in hijacking this thread but I want to underline what harrybeaver added.  In there is why many potentially competent players haven't stuck it out and certainly a big part of why our mud hasn't been able to organically replace players who move on for at least a decade.

Bots and Multies wouldn't be such a discussion point if we still had 100 players on.

My vote is still no.  I think we need more humans playing.  If nothing else, think of humanities collective mental health; you freaks need to interact with at least some 'real' people.

Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Gnua on February 20, 2013, 12:58:01 PM
What is our real problem?  Is the issue we are faced with is that multiing is rampant so we just want to make it legal, or is the issue that there is 0 playerbase and we want to allow multiing because there are no groups out there.

The strongest case I could see would be the first - level the playing field between those who follow the rules and those who don't given that enforcing the policy is a thankless and difficult task for the imms. As for the low playerbase, the goal of such a change would be to make soloing easier for the casual player. Multi-classing / side-kicks / mercenaries / improved charmies could also do the trick but would require coding and balancing effort by the imms.  I tried a different mud where you could solo to top level and just got bored. As much as it sucks trying to find a group, soloing is even more boring. I've got a level 16 dk that would have no problems soloing to higher level but I never play it because it has no one to group with. If I were multi-ing, then I would have a party of mid level characters that I never play because they have no one to group with. My healer and barbarian are ranked and I play them because someone always wants one of them in the group.

Corey's point of "what does it matter because the player base is low" motivated me to vote "don't care". Try it and find out sound pretty reasonable at this point in the wipe. I would predict that with more multi-ing, it would become even harder to find a group and although people could now solo with their multis, they would quickly become too bored to log rather than bored shouting for a group. Multis take the M out of MUD.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Ezio on February 20, 2013, 02:45:34 PM
I said no, but my real question is if it really matters or not. It is against policy now and I see how that works out. I can tell who is boting, and I don't really care.

If I had the drive to figure out all the technical stuff I would likely take advantage, myself. The people that do know will multi if they feel like it or need to for something... Agreed?

The playing field is pretty level the way that I view it. You guys with a decade into the game have better items and more zone knowledge than someone who is new (in comparison). That means their 5 characters are generally better geared than my 5. If i multied 3 characters i would still be in the same position, but my 3 characters would be slower and less competent...

Not sure what is prompting the discussion, or what would change with the rule if you consider that it is allowed now, just not technically
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: snax on February 20, 2013, 05:42:56 PM
  My response to this is that this game has been made exceedingly easier in the past few wipes with Legend, Ranks, Class Revamp, and so forth.  The playerbase is not in my opinion at the point where multi-botting should be instituted as a standard of the game. The zones where you needed 8-10 in the past have become 2-4 man in many cases or even solo for the right classes.  There are still a few zones where you need a large group to be successful as it should be.  In no way is the player base so crippled that in order to do those zones, you need to have x bots.  What it amounts is laziness on the part of the players to make friends/share information with clanmembers or to actually see what zones you can do with less people or even grouping unknowns.  People are ninjaing zones all over the place. 

  The fact is at this point, not finding enough people to do x zone is entirely an attitude problem of players NOT a lack of players problem.  Basicly, the "I don't like x because of what it did to me 20 years ago" attitude.  Or for some reason, you think X unknown is a spy going to steal your shines.  Get over it!  The fact is there are so few people that really will pk you these days that the paranoia retardedness should have died years ago.  The only clan that hasn't had that paranoia of late is MINE...and they been grouping and helping just about anyone that isn't a complete moron/dick and they have been doing this for wipes.

  That being said, I am just as guilty as everyone else since there are quite a few people in the game I really don't have a real use for.  I do however, make an effort.  People just need to realize this is a game...have fun and play with people.  Players are the best way to maintain the playerbase.  The more paranoid you are, the more you are a dick for the sake of being a dick, the more you whine about this person did/said/acted x to you, the more you leave people out in the cold for gear hoarding or information hoarding...the more players we lose because the PLAYERS have made the game un-fun and creates a lack of the same.  Why?  Because most of us are getting old...and as we get older we have enough drama in real life that dealing with drama in what should be entertaining is just stupid.     

  To prove Hoss's point of "I'll quit if you don't do what I want":

  I WILL quit the day botting is made legal.  The only exception to this would be an addition of some mercenary mechanic that is an ingame mechanic that allows anyone to use regardless of level of knowledge in the game or programming skills.  Allowing botting only makes this game more exclusive than it already is.

Anyhow...end of rant.

Hey sami, I know we aren't bosom buddies, but I fully and ENTIRELY agree with your rant.  I'll quit also.  this game can be run by 3 botters.  hell if you wanna turn it into leviathan great.  Riverwind wins.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Victarion on February 20, 2013, 08:12:01 PM
Hello people, you haven't heard from me in a while but somebody messaged me on skype and I figured I'd come in here to tell some truth. First let me say that I likely won't come back to arctic either way, but I am sure 90% of the posts on here have been lies and people wanted to contact me to bring some truths.

1) Already, just about every major clan bots and bots all the time. Some have been suspected and even caught and deleted, but they will continue to do so, and just change the ips and emails of the proxies they use.
2) No clan has been dominate in this game without botting for a very long time, wild was the last, probably in 2007. Botting in arctic basically equates to performance enhancing drugs in sports. Sure they are illegal, but if people will want to get ahead and be the best they will use them. The desire to be at the top > the desire to play by the rules.
3) I learned of botting due to some Scandinavian's (exact country I will not name) who have been using large groups of bots to pk for the better part of a decade and never saw any real negative consequences. After being killed by them enough, you will eventually go with the "you have to fight fire with fire" strategy, and have to take up botting yourself to protect against their 10mans.
4) At the moment, I see many posts by people on these forums who do actively bot, but are highly against botting. Why? The same reason people who deal drugs in the United States do not want drugs to be legalized... because they'd lose their advantage. At the moment now, they bot like crazy, and have a huge advantage when they fight clans who don't bot (not sure that it even exists anymore).
5) Botting 3-4 characters is about 5x more enjoyable than playing 1 character. Its a truth most botters don't share because they don't want others to realize it, but I personally know several people who don't even enjoy playing with other real people anymore, they just log on with 10 bots and do what zones they want, go afk when they want, and don't have to worry about anybody hassling them or making stupid mistakes and bapting up the zone. Once you start botting, it is almost impossible to go back to playing 1 lame char, so people who get caught just change IPs and start over again.
6) Is it possible to stop botting? yes.. but you need a VERY active staff, which arctic only seems to have during the first 1-2 months of a pwipe.

FYI, if you hate botting, but love full loot pvp, try out Darkfall unholy wars, right now im on a galleon with 30 clanmates about to interrupt a city siege where about 100 people will be fighting to take or defend a city. But you have to have a real job and be able to afford a gaming computer and a $15 dollar\month sub. However its worth it, no drama, just full loot pvp skill based. Adios!
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Jorquin on February 21, 2013, 01:09:41 PM
a lot of its true, dunno about playing 3-4 being better than playing 1. i played 2 characters a lot and even that can be mentally tiring after a while. playing only one character is much more enjoyable and relaxing, at least in my opinion. then again i never used triggers/scripts i guess.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Rhys on February 22, 2013, 12:07:33 AM
I only play for nostalgia now. Oddly enough, I actually always had more fun in levelling a character up than the end game- oooh new skill / spell / good hp gain etc.

The few times I have logged it was quickly apparent shouting for a group was a waste of time.  It would be nice to log a few multies, reminisce a bit as I run a few basic zones and level up. I am sure this would lead me to playing more. The game is not meant to be played solo.

As someone already said, the best players will have the best eq, multiing already occurs (alot) why not make it legal.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: aliquippa on February 24, 2013, 03:43:15 AM
I've been back a few months now. I've only been soloing and have just started to get to the bit-bored stage. I haven't really tried grouping because I'm not sure if anyone I know is playing, and I figured I'd be less likely to be 'flagged' if I never grouped with anybody. Also, I was happy to just explore a bit & refresh my memory of places I used to play. Life takes priority over the game - so I don't want to join a group only to find out I have to log off sooner than expected (not to mention, I play a mage - so not as useful to a group).

I'm for botting because the scripting side of it would bring a bit more excitement to the game for me. I'd also love to explore some slightly higher zones that I used to play with friends.

"Off topic, but if you care-bear mud with no PK on a different port I bet Arctic would thrive there." - I'd actually play there, especially if multiing was allowed. The PK side of the game has never really intrigued me. Then again I've never been competing for high end / limit gear - so I don't really know what I'm missing out on.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Dafin on February 24, 2013, 11:25:39 AM
Was suprised to see a few people with game attitude similar to mine.

I actively played another mud years ago and came to Arctic at the end of wipe 16. For more than two months I got formed two times for several hours and was pked twice as well. Finally found some guys who let me join them. In 3 weeks I learnt lots of new stuff and gathered dozens megabytes of logs but lost delight of the game and finally quit. Because instead of enjoying the proccess I was struggling to keep the pace with my peers. Later I returned to try 3-char botting and found it quite amusing because I was able to play at my own pace and read all the descriptions I wanted.

I voted against multiing legalization because I think it'll have dreadful impact on the game. Though I like the idea of alternative nopk multiing-allowed mud, probably with detached high level content. However I don't know if I'll be able to give it a try.

Btw, is multiing allowed in voting?
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Victarion on February 25, 2013, 07:20:13 AM
I dunno if my last post got deleted or if I messed up posting it, however I want to add in a few ways the staff could better regulate botting if the staff decides to ban multying\botting. Obviously the current policing method does not work.
The first method requires policing, the last 3 require initial implementation then imms would have to do 0 policing, I am very high on myself for #3.
1. create an Ventrillo, or teamspeak channel for arcticmud. Every group that is formed is automatically assigned a number, and those players in that group must join the group numbers channel in the voice client. Any imm, lvls 31-36, can jump down to channels and say "Hi, i see there are 5 people in your group, i would like all five of you to say hello to me". Every moron that plays this game can afford a microphone and speakers, so this would work fine, and it would take no time at all to check all groups in game.
2. You must create an account and validate the email address on the arctic website before you can make a char in game. Through the arctic website, your IP that you connect to the webpage must match the IP that your character is connecting to mud with.
3. Create a Java client through the webpage and make it so that is the ONLY way to connect to mud. Make macros and aliases the only features, removing all forms of triggers, and you will definitely stop the bots.
4. Try to form a list of proxy IP's and ban them all.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Essex on February 25, 2013, 09:13:58 PM
My perspective - I have been playing off-and-on since 1993. In that time, between pwipes, I've enjoyed changing things up by playing a host of other MUDs on the web of varying quality. It is simple fact that with the introduction of MMORPGs, the bastard children of MUDs, MUDs are a dying breed. I've had the strange fortune of being present as a number of them blinked out. Reactions by the players of those mud will vary, but it always comes down to rote responses - an outcry for new blood, the belief that amping the apparent number of players will make it appear to have more life or a level of apathy that says the playerbase is so weak that it might as well. These MUDs die slowly and feebly as their staff eventually come to the realization that they're supporting a shell of a creation populated by only a couple of players suffering from semi-autistic devotion. Then they close. Another one bites the dust.

AardWulf is a prime example of painful suckitude that is extreme latitude in multiplay when goes on long after a once-great MUD should be dead. There are others, less memorable. It's just sad, like elderly sportsmen hanging around reminiscing about how awesome they were.

People have whined since all the way back in '93 that the MUD was either dying or going to hell, etc etc, starting at playerbase in excess of 120+ and dropping to the 20-30 I see on at night now. So yeah, it really is dying. That's to be expected, and we all know that multi'ing isn't going to change anything in terms of bringing new blood. The problem is is that it's going to fundamentally change everything, as it always does in these situations, and much the way people are hammering for the opportunity to multi just like the cheaters do, the next step is to hammer on about all the changes that need to be done to accomodate the new dynamic. In a dying MUD. A DYING Mud. Is that what we really want? To redesign the game for a change that stems entirely from the apathy of a diminishing playerbase?

Again, it comes down to going out with class.

On an entirely personal note, I'll tell you that even with the smaller playerbase, I'm enjoying opportunities that I haven't had before, a freedom to explore and group regularly without the expectation of multiple groups of roving bands of players looking for an excuse to pk, and access to equipment that spent most of its time in deep-rent in the past. That doesn't lessen the awesome that Arctic has had in the past, but it's a new dimension that didn't exist before. It doesn't need multiplay.

 Don't muddy it up with a bunch of garbage that is nothing more than a poorly thought-up sign that the MUD is in its last and worst stages of terminal cancer. Multiplay is not and never has been a boon to a MUD, and that's why it's banned on just about every MUD with a player base and a rule-set.

What I'll say here is this: Just let it go. When it's time to close, we close and call it a double-decade. Arctic's been open for over 20 years, did you know that? That's success.

/end rant
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Attai on February 26, 2013, 12:40:41 AM
a lot of its true, dunno about playing 3-4 being better than playing 1. i played 2 characters a lot and even that can be mentally tiring after a while. playing only one character is much more enjoyable and relaxing, at least in my opinion. then again i never used triggers/scripts i guess.

I'll admit I've done the same thing, I never used triggers/scripts and its very tiring.  The 2 classes I played were warrior/healer.  I played warrior because I love playing warriors, I played healer because I hate leveling so getting high enough to be useful in groups is a lot of work and boring as hell to me.

My opinion:
If you're playing multiple characters with no triggers/scripts then it should be legal
If you're playing multiple characters that are fully automated bots then it should be illegal

Essex- I respect your opinion but I don't care about going out with class, this is a game and that is why I play it, if it stops being fun then I'll just stop.  When they finally shut the doors hopefully a long time from now no one is going to look back fondly at ArcticMUD and say that yes they may be gone but at least they went out with class.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on February 26, 2013, 10:52:52 AM
more to come on this during downtime. I plan to leave the thread open until Thursday.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: jingo on February 26, 2013, 03:12:29 PM
I see bot thrown around, but I don't know what people are defining as bot:

1. If a character can automatically choose heal targets, and all I have to do is type a heal alias to initiate the heal, is that a bot?

2. If all characters can automatically examine the state of the game, and decide what it wants to do, including nothing, but I have to type an alias to initiate that action, is it a bot?

3. What If I do #2 but continually type an alias that sends the alias to do something (or nothing) to every client - is this a bot?

People also seem to assume someone multi-ing would use the same clients as they do.  If I were to play multiple characters there's much better ways to organize and present information than scrolling text.  There's plenty of clients out there that have plugin support for real programming languages (Java, Python, etc.) that allows one to create a lot of useful features.

I am very high on myself for #3.
Too bad it's impossible to do.  They could make it harder to connect via a different client, but now you're in an arms race vs the cheaters.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: gulca on February 26, 2013, 03:39:46 PM
Just a few comments:

1. Multi and bot are 2 separate things. It is easier to multi if you know how to bot, but like Daniel said, it is possible to multi without bot/script.

2. Like wise, if you know how to bot, that doesn't automatically mean you multi.

3. Being able to write scripts to bot doesn't mean you are a good player. I'm living a proof. It just mean that a lot of time-sink actions are delegated to scripts instead of manual typing.

4. If you allow me to multi, I will be able to create massive lvl 30 armies in very little time if I want to. That's known as xp blazing and its not because I cheat, but really its because I know how to xp really well.

5. I know multi and char sharing are 2 things, but if you are allowed to multi, why or what's stopping char sharing?

I don't see a real value in allowing multi'ing. If people are complaining about being hard to solo, just open up real magic shops that sells heal/cure/prep potion/scroll.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: btown on February 26, 2013, 04:19:02 PM
People already multi and dont get caugt
Half the people in this forum has already admitted to multiing
I have lead large clans and never multied, i feel cheated
If you can't police multiing let the rest of us do it
It's unavoidable
It's fair
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Felix on February 26, 2013, 08:57:02 PM
First, the conversation that this topic has created has been great.  More input and dialogue like this serve to create an environment where the game can grow and become better.

After reading through everything, here's a few ideas.
1. Multiplay limited to player +1 or perhaps +2, no more.
2. At character creation you must designate a new character as a multi or solo play, and it will remain that way throughout the characters life. No change backsies.
3. Multiplay characters are unable to initiate or assist in PK.  They can defend themselves if attacked.
4. Characters designated as multiplay characters do not gain rank points.
5. Perhaps halve the lifespan of multiplay characters

Botting happens - more so than I realized by this thread.  Any "solutions" meant to stop it that have been discussed are either a gigantic coding time dump or just as likely to catch someone afk - sitting around for hours on vent just in case Hoss stops in to say hi just isn't going to happen for this boy.  By limiting the game for multiplayers, you are keeping the high end content sacred and giving casual players an outlet which will open a whole new world to them.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: suf on February 28, 2013, 09:49:37 PM
Clearly botting should only be allowed if the person is ambidextrous and mudding from two computers using telnet only.

Left hand operates computer A. Right hand operates computer B.

Imagine the skills the ArcticMud population would gain. Suddenly at least 10 people in the world would spend all their waking hours learning to type ambidextrously and simultaneously.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Hoss on March 01, 2013, 09:29:06 PM
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: corey on March 02, 2013, 05:19:47 AM
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Alecto on March 02, 2013, 06:38:15 AM
I'll play with you, Corey :)
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: corey on March 02, 2013, 07:35:30 AM
I'll play with you, Corey :)

We all have our friends and our niches in playing, you know what I mean.

I need to play high efficiency or I don't enjoy it, and I don't think the current playerbase does that :(
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Jorquin on March 02, 2013, 10:19:52 AM
and so arctic will stay in the dark ages.

it'll be fine for the first 1-2 months of the wipe, where people actually will play. then slowly the numbers will dwindle and it'll be back to square one.
as a side note, don't you think its fairly lame to bait out an open forum where people own up and openly talk about their proxy/multi'ing activities and then later say that anyone who gets "known" for doing it will have no credibility in future? as far as i can see that is basically entrapment
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Dagda on March 02, 2013, 10:52:44 AM
yeah wilds will have 10+people to play this wipe now, so we cant allow multing because then they will have competition....
great the mud will continue to get smaller now as you delete more people hoss thanks i wont be playing this wipe either....
continue to make mud even smaller good job......enjoy playing in your big ass sandbox with no one to play with but yourself's.
thanks for ruining a great game for your own benefit wild scum,  this mud will keep dwindling in numbers every year and you put some hope in this mud by letting people multi, but hey enjoy having average of 15 people online what fun

What the hell does wild have to do with Hoss and Aristox making a decision?  You really should consider therapy for your paranoia.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: btown on March 02, 2013, 11:37:45 AM
rofl, coming from david the biggest botter of them all.  i remember when we killed turrible and myth only had a few people on but david had 3 bots to add to the group so my group died.  soo goodbye david i dont care if you come back.  go cheat/multi/bot on a different game
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Super Tacoman on March 02, 2013, 11:53:01 AM
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: RaVaN on March 02, 2013, 12:43:51 PM
  As most people might guess, I applaud this decision.  I spent a lot of time reflecting on my distaste for multying and the side effect of botting, trying to see why I find it so distasteful,  The best argument I came up with is that it is just the same as Bard's Tale, Baldur's Gate, Might and Magic and games similar to those where you control more than one avatar.  The obvious counter to that argument is that it isn't.  Those games were specifically made around the controlling of more than one character and were solo and noncompetitive games.  For a competitive game to succeed, the game must be developed around that competition.  Arctic was specifically designed around a 1 char at one time metagame and social interactions.  Changing that policy would put the game where it was never intended to go.  This fact does not change even with people cheating nor does the fact that to allow multying without large ingame changes will result in a failure of the game as a whole.  Making the changes necessary to allow for it would turn Arctic from a competitive social game into something very NOT Arctic and generic which would I would personally rather see a new name for the game than Arctic and let it die with grace(I prefer Bottic for the new name).

  The fact is, multying and botting in a competitive game has ruined countless games whether free or pay to play unless the game was specifically designed around multying and botting.  The only people that truly benefit from Multiing and Botting in games that don't allow for it is those who cheat while doing massive harm to the game.  Those who feel the need to break the game rules deserve what punishment they get, and further more (in my opinion) are people that actively hurt the overall state of the game that we don't need.  Just look at the arguments that have been made for allowing it then compare it with many of the reasons people have quit over the years.  The majority of arguments for it all stem because someone has done it and gotten away with it leading others to feel justified in doing the same.  This drives players away, prevents the social nature of the game due to paranoia of getting caught, kills the competitive nature of the game, and just all around bad feelings.  Let me say this as well, anyone who feels they have achieved any sense of dominance due to cheating...guess what...you are trash and have been trash ever since you allowed ego, greed, or laziness to take precedence.  It doesn't matter what you have achieved since you cheated.  As Keila has shouted repeatedly, "STOP CHEATING".  Seek to be a better caliber of player.  For those that have not given into that desire to cheat, great job and you are the true heroes in this game.

 
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: corey on March 02, 2013, 01:26:32 PM
  As most people might guess, I applaud this decision.  I spent a lot of time reflecting on my distaste for multying and the side effect of botting, trying to see why I find it so distasteful,  The best argument I came up with is that it is just the same as Bard's Tale, Baldur's Gate, Might and Magic and games similar to those where you control more than one avatar.  The obvious counter to that argument is that it isn't.  Those games were specifically made around the controlling of more than one character and were solo and noncompetitive games.  For a competitive game to succeed, the game must be developed around that competition.  Arctic was specifically designed around a 1 char at one time metagame and social interactions.  Changing that policy would put the game where it was never intended to go.  This fact does not change even with people cheating nor does the fact that to allow multying without large ingame changes will result in a failure of the game as a whole.  Making the changes necessary to allow for it would turn Arctic from a competitive social game into something very NOT Arctic and generic which would I would personally rather see a new name for the game than Arctic and let it die with grace(I prefer Bottic for the new name).

  The fact is, multying and botting in a competitive game has ruined countless games whether free or pay to play unless the game was specifically designed around multying and botting.  The only people that truly benefit from Multiing and Botting in games that don't allow for it is those who cheat while doing massive harm to the game.  Those who feel the need to break the game rules deserve what punishment they get, and further more (in my opinion) are people that actively hurt the overall state of the game that we don't need.  Just look at the arguments that have been made for allowing it then compare it with many of the reasons people have quit over the years.  The majority of arguments for it all stem because someone has done it and gotten away with it leading others to feel justified in doing the same.  This drives players away, prevents the social nature of the game due to paranoia of getting caught, kills the competitive nature of the game, and just all around bad feelings.  Let me say this as well, anyone who feels they have achieved any sense of dominance due to cheating...guess what...you are trash and have been trash ever since you allowed ego, greed, or laziness to take precedence.  It doesn't matter what you have achieved since you cheated.  As Keila has shouted repeatedly, "STOP CHEATING".  Seek to be a better caliber of player.  For those that have not given into that desire to cheat, great job and you are the true heroes in this game.

 

I don't think the majority of the arguments are because others have done it at all. It seems like it's coming up more as a documented side-effect of allowing it and not so much "we want it because they do it anyway".

What of the other, valid arguments? What of us who have dominated, never cheated, and are still on the other side of the fence?

Either way the decision's been made, though I'm sure the same 20 people will be playing 6 months from now. It should really be a decision up to the players who stay around the entire wipe more than the rest of us. They feel the worst of the severe lack of players.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: muddeer on March 02, 2013, 02:08:57 PM
Thank god(s) for the decision!  As someone suggested earlier, when the player base becomes too small as a wipe gets old, we can implement a mercenary system.  With the codes already in place for charmies/pets, it shouldn't take that all that much extra work?
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: RaVaN on March 02, 2013, 02:55:52 PM
@Corey

  You know I have a lot of love for you, but like I said, without major ingame changes it isn't a viable option in my view and anyone who has risen to dominance without cheating...I have a ton of respect for them and they are heroes of the game. 

  My thoughts on this generally stem from going from hapless newbie back in 2008ish to being in top tier clans to now where I tend to just try to get those that return/are new(believe me there are a lot of those) onto at least a playable level with interactions and getting known.  In the current metagame with the player mindset, they CAN NOT COMPETE because of the large scale paranoia and general asshattery of major clans especially when there is a war going on.  Botting/multying without figuring in some sort of balance for these people would effectively keep those players from succeeding.  The only thing that would prevent this would be an opt_nopk flag til legend which adds a whole other level of issues.

  What I keep coming back to on this issue is that there are a large number of people who DO play this game straight.  Just removing the restriction just rewards those who cheat and creates a huge imbalance.  The players should be the ones policing this within their clans, yet consistently they fail to do so.  I know I have with the various clans I have been in that I suspected someone of multying.  It's a selfish reasoning to protect those who cheat, even if you are the best of friends rather than acting to preserve the integrity of the game.  I have seen too many games be ruined by cheating to think that rewarding those that cheat a good thing.  This isn't something new in the game world.  You see it reflected throughout the online gaming world in game not tailored towards botting.  It's worse in games where you have a real world value in ingame items.  Botting is so sophistated now that having a zero tolerance and active policing is the only way but that comes with a price in terms of development.  In a free competitive game like Arctic that operates and develops by the free time and labor of the immortals, forcing them to be policemen just is a pain and keeps the game from going in a better direction.  If the immortals weren't spending the time keeping the players policed, they would have more time to develop the same ingame mechanic in terms of a mercenary system that would render this whole argument moot.  Regardless of the whines about what some people seem to think of various charmie systems, they would be effective in doing the same thing.  I personally don't think the game has reached that point, but it IS a good time to start considering it rather than what I see as a game-killer.

  Anyhow, I get you, I really do and I feel for the immortals that continually have to deal with this nonsense that should be self-policing but isn't.  People need to get a little self-respect and work within the game rules or immortal and start making the push themselves on developing the game in a positive way.  The players also need to get rid of the stupidity.  That kills the game more than anything else.  A point in case is 
iDavidCZX1 post above...but changing that behavior can't be done via coding.

  Anyhow, as I said earlier it's the players you, me, and everyone else that dictate the state of the game and that is the real issue more than anything on player attrition.  There are lots of options as well, so once you lose someone it'll be a while before they come back...if ever.  I don't, however, care if a cheater who got caught quits and never returns.  They cause more harm than good.

  As an aside, this is really why I positively got upset that this was even discussed.  It's a hot button topic and regardless of the decision it angers people to the point of ridiculousness. In this discussion, at no point did I see a pro-botter say,"Hey if people want to multi here's a script and I will personally develop the best scripts for characters I can and post it."  Rather, you have people wanting it who have done it themselves wanting to be able to do that in the open without giving that info to those who don't know how to do it.  Just boiled down to cheaters wanting to be rewarded for cheating.  I am pretty sure if people were wanting to put a hand out to implement it in a very real way with their time, the overlords would have been more inclined to listen than with the "games dying, no one likes me, this sucks, I want to solo big things with a bot army, everyone else cheats, you can't stop it" arguments.

  On the same note, a lot of players opinions and actions is what keeps me deciding against immortal application for myself since I realize that my sense of fair play and no tolerance for drama.  The time investment analysis just doesn't seem to justify it and I think I would just piss off Hoss, Sanjuro, and Aristox more than adding to the growth of the game plus anyone that catches the rough side of me if I ever got real power.  So I remain the mortal who takes a lot of time and effort building up the new/returning types as much as I can or even experienced players who might have a question I think I know the answer to.  I think more people should be doing this and I know there are a few who do. 

  Anyhow, rambling and not really answering the questions posed I know. 
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Super Tacoman on March 02, 2013, 04:30:58 PM
90% sure raven is rurh
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: corey on March 02, 2013, 04:55:31 PM
90% sure raven is rurh

Nah, Rurh didn't have respect for me. He also had too much respect for himself that he wouldn't lie about it.

Anyway, I still think this avenue should be explored even as a test later in the wipe when the player base is sparse.
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: kilians on March 02, 2013, 07:24:39 PM
No Botting! it's just a stupid idea and i agree 100% with raven also hi Corey long time no talk don't know if you remember me but if u decide to play or if anyone ever wants to group or needs help i usually play through out the whole wipe just pm me :)
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: RaVaN on March 02, 2013, 09:35:52 PM
@Super Tacoman
 
  Sorry wrong but take the condolence prize....Everyone know I am the eternal Ravan...Quit sucking!!Who the hell is rurh!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jItz-uNjoZA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jItz-uNjoZA)
Title: Re: Multiing
Post by: Aristox on March 03, 2013, 09:52:27 PM
I am going to close this thread after I finish this post.  I think the thread has run its course.


I have never liked multing.  When I was only a player I had an aversion to it, but since I have been in a position to influence the game I have always looked on it as nothing but a negative.

I could go into more detail, but a lot of what I would say has been said already in this thread.