Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hoss on December 02, 2014, 11:30:12 AM

Title: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoss on December 02, 2014, 11:30:12 AM
We would like to hear your feedback regarding class item sets to see if we have hit the mark or need to adjust.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Gnua on December 02, 2014, 12:28:07 PM
I think the only info we need/want from sets would be the effects of each named bonus so that when a person sees something like radiant apostle in their score, they can look it up.  I dont think we need to know what pieces belong in the set or how many pieces are needed for the bonus. I do like the idea of lower tier sets (mishakal's blessing and shaman of the bones). they were better than nothing but if you played the character seriously you would quickly break it as better stuff came along.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kafilat on December 02, 2014, 12:52:25 PM
I think the power balance seems decent on the 4 piece set - I haven't yet gathered six of any set so can't speak to those bonuses, but the bonuses on the 4 piece set felt appropriate.

I think the load rate is not great but not terrible; I do think there should be slightly more load locations and the load rate should be representative of the difficulty for an *average* group to kill the mobs in question.  I do like that there seem to be options for solo players to load set pieces on occasion, though I'm not sure if that's for all the sets or just the ones I've noticed.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kadaj on December 02, 2014, 01:05:42 PM
As an owner of 6/6 Midnight Rogue and 6/6 Lord of shields the relative ease at which to load them and load rate is pretty solid.  The only thing I really wish is knowing EXACTLY what it does.  Sure checking out stats and certain flags are easy but some just, aren't. Knowing what the full sets give would give players a better understanding on if they want to pursue the set or not based on the gear they currently have.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Vespin on December 02, 2014, 01:06:59 PM
the 4 piece power for the druid (the only one i've personally played around with) seems pretty good.  One thing i object to is the vast increase of nightvision flags on the headworns.  i'd hate to see it as commonplace as the detect invisibility flag.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: eddiex on December 02, 2014, 02:05:27 PM
I agree with vespin that to me it is a bit ridiculous that every headworn of these sets has a nightvision flag.  I am for the transparency of stats on the set.  From what i've seen my 5-6 pieces of pretty limited gear is not much better than the 6 piece thief set.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Neyman on December 02, 2014, 02:12:57 PM
As the only vote for not showing set bonuses, I realize i am in the minority, but I think it adds to the fun to actually spend some time testing a set to see if it's hard bash, or immune heat, +stats, etc. Not everything in this game has to be about racing through zones on a 10man group at warp speed.

I would really like the "easy" load location for the shaman set changed ... it turned a fun questy zone into some thing that got spammed like crazy. I was guilty of spamming it too but its hard to say no to trying to pop the set item when it takes 1 minute.

The full barb set seems quite balanced, appropriate, and worth it, especially pre legend, though maybe too easy to load (I think I'm going to regret saying this!)

The NV perk should be from sets I think, not item. But maybe I'm just annoyed that my nv prep spots are worth less now. Though it matters less now that everyone has nightfall.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 02, 2014, 02:19:35 PM
I don't think the load rate for the barb set is where it needs to be right now. I don't know the supposedly solable load location, but from the three other locations I do know (all of which require a decent group), I've seen less than a 33% drop rate.

It's difficult to motivate the clan to go when people have already gotten whatever spells they need from that mob and the drop rate is so low you're not even sure sometimes if you rememer getting the drop from that mob correctly.

Because of the low drop rate, I can't comment on the set bonus. Most I ever had was three pieces.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 02, 2014, 06:49:59 PM
Well we got a piece to drop today which was nice, except now we run into a new problem. Yes, I edited this to remove mob name and kw.


834H 65V 1X 1.42% 784C Exits:W> You ****** a thick hide of fiery red dragonscale to the *********
A ********** says 'Yeah, I can make you something with that.'

A ********* takes the hide from you and gets to work,
however he somehow manages to make a complete mess of the job.

A *********** says 'Sorry, but I failed to make you anything useful.'

As far as I know, no other set does this. So not only is there the poor drop rate, but now the item required for the set doesn't always work?  This is really not good.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Neyman on December 02, 2014, 07:32:39 PM
I've had this happen to me too. Perhaps it means that the item he was going to make you is maxed. I'm not sure but I think with sets in the previous wipe, there often a "limiting" item that effectively maxed how many full sets there could be. Or maybe its something like the probability of a fail increases as the number of outstanding set pieces increases (i think this would be awesome but somehow I doubt thats whats going on).

Also I think its funny you hid the "keyword" rather than the fact it is a hide that you need to do something with. I would have thought that the latter is a bit more subtle :)
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: muddeer on December 02, 2014, 08:21:39 PM
way too much game info given out already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 02, 2014, 08:47:35 PM
Also I think its funny you hid the "keyword" rather than the fact it is a hide that you need to do something with. I would have thought that the latter is a bit more subtle :)

When the item name is almost identical to the gear piece name, not much point in hiding it I thought lol, but yeah i guess.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: kurik on December 02, 2014, 09:43:47 PM
As a mostly casual solo player i liked the old sets like ergothian , brog , woodsmans sets as they were good low sets easily obtainable with patience
and didnt think they were too op for what they were , bit late to this wipe so haven't even seen any new set piece load yet. but would be appreciated if u turned the old ones back on too. :)
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 03, 2014, 11:18:56 AM
Yeah it looks like some are maxxed. Probably why I didn't get the item on the last load I got for the barb set as neyman pointed out.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Brafu on December 03, 2014, 03:47:39 PM
I liked when stats for some sets were posted. While I do enjoy some mystery and trying to figure things out for myself, I don't find much fun in that when it comes to eq, and especially sets, since there are just somethings that you cannot, ever, truly figure out by testing and experience alone.

I don't mind if everything else about a set is a huge mystery, since that's part of the fun, but the stats... eh, I rather just be told what it is so I can decide if its worth the effort and if I should keep it over some other eq.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: gulca on December 03, 2014, 07:08:25 PM
I would like to propose some of the following tweaks and lay out the reasons behind them.

1. Different tiered individual stats on set pieces. This can be simple as having a range of basic stat on a particular piece. And the range is a function of where/whom you pop it from.

Here is an example.
A ornate boot have range of 0 to 2 dex, 5 to 20 mv, 0 to 10 apply. If you pop it from a mid level zone, it will have the lower range. If you pop it from a zone like Ancient, it will have the higher range.

2. More mobs that load set pieces. With the implementation of #1, you can have more mobs loading the pieces without necessary making them too powerful. Again, lower mobs should have lower % chance than higher mobs.
I'm basically implying any "named" mobs (from mid lvl to high lvl zones) of the set class should have a chance to load a piece.

A % load would be something like 0.1% for the mid mobs.

3. Limit chance of loading to the following
headwear, body (limited items): only high level zones
hand, arm, feet, leg (unlimited): mid to high level zones

With #3, it would make more sense to have 3 tiers instead of 2 tiers. You get bonus from 4 pieces to 5 pieces to 6 pieces.

So, in summary, a solo beginner player would have a chance to pop lower stat set pieces and still get the 4th set bonus. While clan and more advance players will have higher individual stat pieces and get the 5th and 6th tier set bonus.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoss on December 04, 2014, 11:02:39 AM
Quick Update: As I can see from the overwhelming feedback, we will be adding the stats to the sticky post for class sets. I also will be removing the nightvision flag from the head pieces and adding it to the 6 piece bonus. Our goal is to have this information available to players in game, but that will take some time.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: oom on December 06, 2014, 02:55:21 PM
"And while it isn't 1 zone i think the idea behind the druid set is amazing. It would be awesome if there were more sets of that were obtained in the same way." - This is what I said in the ask the audience post, horrible grammar and all .. your welcome. :) -

I think the new sets are perfect. With the ways the rank system works, and the new set distribution there is no shortage of people wanting to zone at all hours. I think it's great. I think load rates are fine(selfishly I'd say up them) and set bonus for shaman *seemed* to be pretty good to me.

I honestly think the game itself, coding, classes, zones, etc., is in my opinion, the best it's ever been.
Thanks guys.
Tim/Oom/Pragor/Troggdor etc.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kafilat on December 07, 2014, 05:29:33 PM
Having now seen the actual set bonuses I'd like to retract my previous statement and say that the present bonuses are, in my opinion, a bit over the top.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Jorquin on December 07, 2014, 09:12:06 PM
In my opinion given how annoying sets are to acquire (spamming the same mobiles) and also to maintain once put together, the set bonuses are pretty balanced.

I imagine you will still see most people in major clans as well as many people in smaller clans using combinations of low limit "elite tier" items, since their total benefits will likely be far greater than these sets provide - also the process of loading those items is probably less tedious and more enjoyable for all involved.

Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: eddiex on December 08, 2014, 11:14:11 AM
I partially agree with Jorquin.  While the sets may be tedious to pop and maintain, i don't agree that the benefits of "elite tier" items far outweigh the bonuses of these sets.  To me the effort put into scrambling to load these items during rush time and maintain them is negated by the high power of the 6 piece set bonus.

Ornate set bonus:
5% crits, 3hr, 3 dam, 2 str, 2 dex, 3 con, disable 10, regen 60%, retal 5, backstab mod 10, can_fly, sneak, hide, no charm, nv, imm curse, imm fear (this does not even include innate stats of individual pieces)

Limited thief set:
robe of twilight, black domino, chaos sols, battle kilt, sleeves of stealth, emil gaunts

I will not disclose the stats to the limited thief set, but i am assuming this is the type of "elite tier" gear we are referring to as better eq to replace a set with.  I think it is nearly impossible to rival the total value of the set with any limited gear.  The sets were supposed to be "good" but not diminish the quality of elite tier gear.  I mean if we paralleled the limited thief set and ornate set in rank points you can visually see how overpowered the set bonuses are.

Detractors may argue that the limited thief set i mentioned may be "easier" to pop, or damage oriented and a more balanced choice of 6 pieces would be a better comparison.  I'd challenge anyone to come up with a 6 piece set that is >= rank point value of the ornate set that doesn't include cyan gear.

To me these set bonuses say:  Well, if you don't have Cyan gear, use a class set, its the next best thing.

**Cyan gear example meant to be absurd since we all know no one person would ever be given 6 pieces of cyan gear in these slots

I'd also contend that anyone arguing that the set bonuses are balanced, is probably using the set themselves.

Finally, I'd like to say it is probably very difficult to come up with an item set that is good enough for someone to want to play with and maintain, without devaluing elite tier items.  So i appreciate the effort and will be attempting to complete this set for my backup legendary thief.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 08, 2014, 01:12:16 PM
So now that I've finally gotten my hands on the barb 6 set I have mixed reactions.

One the one hand, yes I REALLY like this set. On the other I think in some ways it might be a bit too good, and in other ways I would prefer different bonus's in place of the ones that are there now. So, hoping to not shoot myself in the foot here....

The set has what I consider the essentials for tanking in large groups, and some very nice solo bonus's as well. That having been said, there are extra's that I think could be exchanged for some things which are perhaps less powerful, but more relevant to a tanking role.

For example, NPP is nice, it has good uses as a main tank, but I do not consider it an essential bonus to have even when fighting lots of edrain/tenting mobs. I wouldn't mind trading it, and the imm curse as well for saves and/or resistances.

Also, I love the + dam, everyone loves + dam, but I like damage reduction even more. With how powerful a stat that + dam is, and how powerful dam reduction can be, trading the two would create a set that is less desirable for those who aren't specializing in maintanking (yes damage barbs do exist, and they can be scary), and more worth the effort of maintaining for clans/groups with barbs who are dedicated mains.

Also, in terms of the drop rate again. Having seen the stats, and seen not only the drop rate, but also the chance of loosing the quest item due to pieces being maxxed, i think the effort/reward ratio is good atm, especially on the easier to pop mobs, which appear to have pretty low drop rates.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Gnua on December 08, 2014, 01:29:33 PM
I partially agree with Jorquin.  While the sets may be tedious to pop and maintain, i don't agree that the benefits of "elite tier" items far outweigh the bonuses of these sets.  To me the effort put into scrambling to load these items during rush time and maintain them is negated by the high power of the 6 piece set bonus.

The sets are very nice, but if the goal was to have sets fill a niche for a casual mudder because the clanned characters would be breaking the set to achieve better bonuses, I just dont see many (there will be some of course at the super elite level) clanned characters breaking the set for better gear.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: eddiex on December 08, 2014, 02:37:47 PM
Also, I love the + dam, everyone loves + dam, but I like damage reduction even more. With how powerful a stat that + dam is, and how powerful dam reduction can be, trading the two would create a set that is less desirable for those who aren't specializing in maintanking (yes damage barbs do exist, and they can be scary), and more worth the effort of maintaining for clans/groups with barbs who are dedicated mains.

Really? You want the set to be dam reduction and hard bash?  While i agree this would make an epic barb tanking set, i think that would just add to the case that these sets are OP.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kadaj on December 08, 2014, 04:21:11 PM
I think you really need to get into the mindset of these sets.  It's not like you get 6 damage from 6 pieces of gear, you get a lot of utility. You also have to maintain these sets as well.  Fighting other people over the load spots and gear loads is tough.  You lose out on that one limit piece and well, you are stuck with 4/6 or 5/6 for a long time whereas if you lose your chaos sollerets you can go load them relatively easy.  In terms of raw damage yeah, going all out with damage in every slot is great if that's what you want to do, but you are not going to be able to get that with this set.  There certainly are items that have multiple flags of this set on one item that you could obtain(domino).  It basically comes down to, do you want damage body, head, hand, legs arms feet. Or do you want 3 damage and a lot of utility.  No one is forcing anyone to get these sets. I think you are just caught up in 'yeah i worked hard to get these damage items and some joeshmo from kokomo can just come along and load these items' The sets are limited. It's just a nice reward to people who want to go out and complete them.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 08, 2014, 05:02:17 PM
In response to eddie. I have different opinions about the 4 and the 6 piece set, but yes I think the 6 piece set as is, or modified the way I proposed is not overpowered for what it takes to obtain and maintain it.


Six piece

The barb Set is already hardbash for the 6 piece version, and yes, I would like to see the +dam exchanged for reduced damage taken for the 6 piece set. The 6 piece set requires at least one limited item. I've lost two hides now because of this when I've done the turn in.

I don't know what the limit is, but it is probably low, and I don't have a problem with one or two low limit items making the difference between a good, general purpose, class-specific set, and an elite, specialized set for the same class.

Keep in mind, I'm saying this as someone who has the 6 piece, but will likely dt or similar and will eventually loose his hold on the limited item(s). It will take a LOT of work as someone who only plays his barb to maintain the 6 set solo, and even then all that work only results in a chance of getting the turn-in item.

Then, so long as I'm only needing one more limited item to re-complete the set, I have a 5 in 6 chance of not getting that item, even when I can get what a need to do the turn in. So the end result is I have a low chance of ever finding the trigger, but when I finally do, I can pat myself on the back and then play russian roulette with 5 bullets in the gun.

With that in mind, no, I really don't have a problem with the 6 piece barb set having the power it does now, whether or not that power is balanced between offense and defense as it is currently, or if it became defensively specialized. The tedium involved is literally multiplied in comparison to maintaining the other sets, which can be located, the mob killed, and the specific piece looted. Again with that in mind, replacing +dam with reduced damage taken for less than a handful of people in the game is not overpowered at all. 

Four piece

That having been said, I agree with you that the 4 piece set is too powerful as it is now. The four-piece in my opinion, should be more of a  general-purpose design for those clans and/or individuals who are using their barbs in a variety of roles, rather than dedicated, specialized main tanks. Right now the 4-piece has appropriate defensive and utility bonuses, but too much offensive power. I think that should be toned down some, although I don't have any bright ideas as to the exact details on how to do it.

 

Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoss on December 09, 2014, 10:47:07 AM
The power or lack thereof in the sets was something we thought about for some time. It is a delicate balance between too power and garbage for gear. Our stat system currently does not allow for much wiggle room here. I very much appreciate the feedback we have received thus far, and look forward to others chiming in with their opinions on class set power. I too still feel that some sets are overpowered while others are very lacking.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: eddiex on December 09, 2014, 01:53:45 PM
  No one is forcing anyone to get these sets. I think you are just caught up in 'yeah i worked hard to get these damage items and some joeshmo from kokomo can just come along and load these items' The sets are limited. It's just a nice reward to people who want to go out and complete them.

I was addressing the original stated purpose of these sets which was to make them good but not devalue elite tier items.  But since you think my opinion is based on personal displeasure let me provide more questions for you to address.

I provided one example of what most people would consider an elite tier set. That being said in regards to thief set in particular: How is 6 dam of all limited gear much better than 3dam 5% crit 10 backstab mod to a thief?

How is a 6piece set of all limited gear including limit ones not harder to obtain than a six piece set with only 1 or 2 limited items, None of them limit one. To the average player.

Wasnt it you who dtd and not more than a week later had an entire new ornate set? I challenge anyone to load the aforementioned limited thief set or similar one in a week.

Can you provide any 6 piece item set of elite tier gear that rivals or compares to the ornate set in rankpoint value or total stats bonuses? I doubt there is any that come close.

@enochvey:I believe there are less than a handful of rentable dam reduction gear and none that are nearly as easy load as that set. I don't think 15% dam reduction on any set is balanced comparably to elite tier dam reduc, although it does address the intended purpose of the class.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Chisul on December 09, 2014, 02:48:56 PM
Hoss,

Are the set bonuses class restricted? Or could a scout wearing a warrior set get the bonus?
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kadaj on December 09, 2014, 03:27:08 PM
Off the top of my head, six pieces on those same slots I came up with:

str: 1
dex: 2
auto sneak
auto hide
detect invis
auto invis
detect magic
awareness
50% regen
damage 6
hitroll 3

For a total of: 45 rank points

regeneration/autoinvis do not exist as ranks.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoss on December 09, 2014, 05:03:04 PM
Quote
Are the set bonuses class restricted? Or could a scout wearing a warrior set get the bonus?

Class sets are restricted to the class they were designed for.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: eddiex on December 09, 2014, 06:26:30 PM
 I think your last post just reinforced the devaluing of elite tier gear when the set you just posted is not even clearly better than the thief set, in fact i believe it is still worse.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kadaj on December 09, 2014, 06:28:48 PM
You asked me to come up with a list, I did :) I'm happy with my six piece set. 
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 09, 2014, 07:15:23 PM
@enochvey:I believe there are less than a handful of rentable dam reduction gear and none that are nearly as easy load as that set. I don't think 15% dam reduction on any set is balanced comparably to elite tier dam reduc, although it does address the intended purpose of the class.

I can't speak for this wipe, but last wipe there were 2 sets of gear that I know of which had a limit dam bonus. This was in addition to the less than a handful of single items that gave the same bonus. Yes, the unavoidable fights were/are significantly harder than the bare minimum of what must be done to load the barb set, but they also didn't have the 2x rng issue I spoke of earlier after the fights were done.

Keep in mind, my perception of the difficulty involved in this is based at least in part on the fact that, I am still learning the faster way to check the barb load. Currently, I have to face smash my way though most of the zone on my own to even check the load. This is not easy on a barb, and takes a significant amount of time for someone who only plays that class. As you know, the zone itself offers little else for a larger group to come in and take the same face-smashing path, so if I want this set, I have to do it on my own, or find people willing to sell me the items! My perception may change some once I learn the faster way, and don't have to spend as much time checking for each chance to fail 5 out of 6 turn-ins if looking for the limited item.

Now before the idea of making a thief or another character to check the load easier comes up, I will pre-emptively say that it makes little to no sense that a person should be required to use one class to load an item for another class set. Ideally, the whole solo load thing would involve some sort of barb-only access thing and require the barb to have decent gear/ranks beforehand. Sort of like neraka arena, but barb-only access and balanced in relation to the value of the set. Sort of like omen for shamans, but not requiring the prep beforehand since omen doesn't decay once you get it :P

I agree that rentable dmg reduction wasn't easy to come by before those two sets I spoke of, but even with those two sets only two more people in the entire mud were able to get it. Now, at least one of those sets has been deactivated, and the other I have not been able to check yet, but I am assuming it has been deactivated as well. We didn't have a bunch of tanks rolling around last wipe with limit dam gear because of those sets, and now at least one of those limit dam sets is gone.

Adding limit dam to one class set, with a limit 1-2 chokepoint, is going to produce about the same number of limit dam tanks as the now deactivated set(s) had brought into the game before. Now adding limit dam to all tank, or potentially tank class sets yeah, I can see how that could overflow the mud with near-invincible tanks and devalue single, or even multiple ellite tanking items.

But as it stands, the only two classes I see right now that putting the limit dam on makese sense with are paladins and barbs. Paladins got it, and while I'm sure there is some reason, or several reasons why it wasn't included on the barb set, I guess I just disagree that 1-2 more limit dam barbs on the mud (even when/if not me) is going to break things.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Jang Yoo Sung on December 09, 2014, 11:49:57 PM
eddiex u keep comparing 6 piece of 'elite tear' gear to 6 set pieces

what abt 5 piece of 'elite tear' gear and 5 set pieces?
i would gladly trade 6 set pieces for the aforementioned 6 'elite tear' gears
are u open for trade? probably not, because if u decayed one of the 'elite tear' gears u can go and repop
whilst the set pieces load in random locations and therefore when u decay it it can be lost easily
and also whilst thief set may be powerful, this was the same for the set the previous wipe
it all goes down to whether u are the 'set' type of person, or individual gear type of person
because both have their advantages and disadvantages

i think the new sets provided great new content to this wipe
and a chance for us newbies to become a little bit more powerful too
i think if they were any weaker i wouldnt bother to try to load em

Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Neyman on December 10, 2014, 12:04:01 AM
I think what's sort of interesting is that, assuming that there is only 1 limiting slot per set, then that limit item is worth a LOT. For example, consider how much you gain going from 4 piece barb set (which is not too hard to get) to a 6 piece set: -30AC, +1HR, +1DR, +2STR, +1CON, +5 Charge, +15% healing, +5 Ghostdance, Hardbash, NPP, NV, ImmFear. Thats pretty intense. Makes me wonder how much someone would pay for this limit item, and how that would compare to how much people pay for some of the other "top tier elite" items in the game. Unfortunately I suck too much to actually know a good example of an elite item being sold. In fact I'd be curious if ANYONE has sold the limit set item yet. If the answer is no, then I think that means that the full sets are indeed being treated as "elite gear".

Anyway regardless of all this musing of overpowered underpowered blah blah, I think based on the shout log its pretty clear that these sets are a huge hit and people are totally digging them: they are the hot new thang all the cool kids want!
Title: variety is the spice of life
Post by: Grimwar on December 10, 2014, 12:49:42 AM
If a game is about interesting choices, then why not also bring back (and even add) NON-class-specific sets?   More alternatives = better.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Jang Yoo Sung on December 10, 2014, 01:07:34 AM
Agreed! bring back black dragon hide
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Jorquin on December 10, 2014, 07:08:36 AM
i could rattle off various 6 item combinations that are vastly superior to the sets for almost all classes

many logical minded people would counter by saying "but surely those combinations contain a variety of unique, difficult to acquire items!", and you would be correct. that said, over time the total pool of beast-mode equipment has increased as more zones are added and the player base has either stayed constant or possibly declined (open to interpretation). powerful unique items are more common and on average better than in years gone by. many items that were previously considered elite are now in the middle of the top tier pack.

it's common to see one or two specific groups amassing hoards of those unique items and becoming god-like powerful while others are left in the dust, having little opportunity to close the gap. i'd argue the sets provide players with a greater opportunity to close that gap.

you have to be realistic. there's no spell_mod on these sets, hardly any hard bash (barbarian was the only one i think?), minimal damroll, no immunity to elements or blind, no mass saving_spell, etc. i'm not going to tell you that the sets aren't strong - because they are, but if you believe that it's incredibly difficult to get a better combination of items then it's likely that these sets are designed to help you catch up with those guys who are packing 4+ limit one's totalling 8 damage along with nv, trueseeing, nosummon, nocharm, minor resists and 3 attribute stats (just an example i mentally concocted from some items i've used in the past).

that said i have to agree with the statement that some sets are perhaps a touch too buff (flat %'s on dk/paladin) while others are maybe a touch too weak, but overall i'd say they're not too far off the mark.
 


tldr: you're not going to mass oblit, stun everyone in the room, be practically nobash or generally a god in any of these sets. sure they're good, but compared to the strength of many unique (or low limit) items they're far from overpowered... and there really is a lot of unique items these days.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoodoo on December 10, 2014, 12:14:18 PM
Hi!   

I've been running the Ghillie Suit for a while now, maybe a week or so.  Well-tested now, in solo and tanking/grouping.  My  thoughts:

Yes, it's a powerful set.  However, it's not elite.  Here's why.

There are major holes in the set, stats that I honestly need to zone that I'm having issues equipping for given the limits of the set.  That's not to say I don't love the set: I do.  However, for example, while using the set, I have issues with spell/stun saves unless I equip -2/-3ss.  The minimal strength on the set means I have to equip a fair chunk of +str to help out my kender.   I'd love to slot a few more int for instinct damage, but finding the places to put it is a challenge, given the 6 major slots are taken already. 

Some of the sets don't have as strong an issue with this as I do: after all, nobody's supposed to be tanking void on a 550 hp scout anyway, so my set isn't exactly designed to do what I do, and the bennies on the scout set are a bit more wide-ranging and less targetted than, say, the barb set.  However, equipping any of these sets gives you weaknesses that can easily be exploited in PK, and limits your ability to stack +dam in the ancillary slots due to needing to fill in those holes. 

The sets rock, but they do force choices, and I can easily see how one might wish to break the set to get a more focused purpose for their character.

That being said, some of the sets seem a bit overpowered compared to the others: personally, I'd point towards ornate and fiery on those.  It's a minor issue, though, IMHO: gearing for elite individual eq gives you more control over your character's strengths and weaknesses. 

Jason

Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: eddiex on December 10, 2014, 01:39:20 PM
eddiex u keep comparing 6 piece of 'elite tear' gear to 6 set pieces

what abt 5 piece of 'elite tear' gear and 5 set pieces?
i would gladly trade 6 set pieces for the aforementioned 6 'elite tear' gears
are u open for trade? probably not, because if u decayed one of the 'elite tear' gears u can go and repop
whilst the set pieces load in random locations and therefore when u decay it it can be lost easily
and also whilst thief set may be powerful, this was the same for the set the previous wipe
it all goes down to whether u are the 'set' type of person, or individual gear type of person
because both have their advantages and disadvantages

i think the new sets provided great new content to this wipe
and a chance for us newbies to become a little bit more powerful too
i think if they were any weaker i wouldnt bother to try to load em

Ys the reason I wouldn't trade you my set for thief set has nothing to do with your thoughts. I spent many hours during wipe rush with peak population ensuring I get the items I wanted. I may never see them again if I lose them. I have invested many hours repopping the eq, why would I trade it for a set of 4 or 5 unlimited items and a sixth item that that can be acquired in a week or two of persistence.

I can be assured I can get an ornate set. Yet, the items people may never load are not even significantly better? Weird.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoss on December 11, 2014, 04:51:38 PM
Some of you may have noticed that I took a quick damage reduction pass to the class sets and adjusted some of the bonuses they provide. This discussion has been great feedback so far and I value your responses on the topic.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Jang Yoo Sung on December 11, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
if i may add, paladins get a +5 slam for full set
but as many paladins know this skill is useless...


March 8th, 2013 -- A New Wipe, Same Slaughter

Paladins:
Slam skill is now easier to land.

it was posted in last year's wipe that slam was made easier to land
but i felt it was even harder to train that b4......
as a paladin who has put countless hours to train this skill albeit the frustration in doing so
i would like to point out that this skill is not useful at all, basically because it hardly ever lands even at superb
i can confidently say that no other paladins...maybe other than alecto if my memory serves me right... has even trained slam to superb

every other class gets a kewl new skill at legendary, but paladins get a useless skill
if this was not ur intention in the beginning please fix it or replace it with some other skill
a skill that nobody trains at legendary...i think there's something wrong with that...
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Zozen on December 12, 2014, 12:54:24 PM
Couple people using the sets, mainly see tanks with them until they get 2-3 elite unique gear then transfer the set off or use the 4 piece until they can fill in the other slots.

Mage set:

Any mages using it?

It says:

HIT by 25
and
HIT by 20

...which is it? Or is it 45?
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoss on December 12, 2014, 01:05:27 PM
Thank you for catching the typo in the mage set. The correct bonus is 10 and 20.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: btown on December 12, 2014, 01:13:06 PM
Mage set looks VERY WEAK.  am i wrong?
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Zozen on December 12, 2014, 01:31:42 PM
It is, because the only real benefits a halfway spelled mage is getting out of it is:

HIT by 20
Target resist by 10
Spell slots by +1 for all spell levels
Spell damage done by 10%
NIGHTVISION

All of which you can get +more stuff from high tier equipment that isn't that hard to load (not talking cyan/blaze/etc.)

The other stuff is fluff: most mages have 22-25 nat int these days and with legend int isn't hard to deal with to get 28. Dex and casting level is worthless with all the high tier gear out there and mental acuity. The bonuses to the skills are worthless. And all the other effects aren't really helping a spelled mage.

Dunno how you would make this set worth using without overpowering it though.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Jorquin on December 12, 2014, 06:58:56 PM
that depends how you look at it

if you assigned one of those five affects/flags you listed to one item each, then the remainder of the set bonus to the sixth item they would all be really good individually... and that doesn't include any stats on the pieces themselves.

also generally mages don't have access to many good leg/armworn items, hand items are often quite forgettable for mages too (there are a few exceptions, but anyway...). given the slots this set occupies i'd say it is strong, seeing as it leaves open rings, necks, wrists, about and waist - which is where most of the shinies go anyway. when you consider what you would usually be wearing on a mage on the slots which the set occupies it is really quite good.

Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: btown on December 13, 2014, 07:09:29 AM
I am just comparing them vs all of the rest of the sets

mage set is by far the weakest I think IMO
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 13, 2014, 10:12:46 AM
Going to miss the hardbash on the barb set ugh.. Then again, this is coming from someone who at times has chosen to wear armaboro over most non-set items in the game simply because of how much I hate bash in general, and even more so when tanking, so admittedly I am biased here.

The power reduction seems reasonable, except for the fact that Jonas will be happy that he can chain bash me again in the middle of zoning--which is terrible from a game design stand point. The solution to which is to make me No_bash vs any and all bashers Jonas ever plays.

On a serious note...  The change is significant enough that if I was offered the same elite item I refused a week ago in order to maintain the 6 set, I would accept it now even though it would break the 6 piece. I'm guessing that sort of behavior is exactly what was/is intended in terms of balance. Though I will certainly miss the hardbash, and would exchange the nocharm/npp etc on the set to get it back if given the chance, it does give me some more freedom now in terms of what I'm using if I get another chance at that elite item or those like it.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: eddiex on December 14, 2014, 12:05:24 AM
Am i missing something? I don't see where it said hard-bash was removed from barb set and i also didn't see that change in the item set sticky
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 14, 2014, 01:03:51 PM
Wierd, thought I saw the flag gone on the sticky, but it's there now. I may have just missed that before.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Viper on December 14, 2014, 03:16:07 PM
Perhaps just a bit to powerful through comparison of alternative gear
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoss on December 20, 2014, 03:07:56 PM
We have taken another pass through the class sets and reduced some of the attributes that we considered put them over the top. We continue to look for your feedback and appreciate what we have received so far.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kadaj on December 20, 2014, 07:41:34 PM
Full midnight set for sale. Will trade for practically anything.


On a serious note, these changes don't warrant keeping the set in any way.  I would maybe use it to level a new character but that's all it really looks good for.  The amount of bonuses vs maintaining is just not there. It looks like a set to level an alt but even that is a stretch.

Glad I'm back to s mage main who needs nothing but CL gear.
Druid set lost 5 resist each while the rogue set has lost 4 damage, 20% regen and more.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Neyman on December 21, 2014, 01:33:42 AM
Full midnight set for sale. Will trade for practically anything.

I will gladly take that set from you! Thanks!

And maybe thats the point ... you seem like a seasoned experienced player who has a legend everything and knows where the shiniest of the shinies load. I on the other hand have an odd assortment of random gear I somehow happened to come across that "seemed thiefy" because maybe it has some +dex or something. So instead of collecting this set, go hang out with cyan/blaze/whatever and get some ultra fancy shinies, and pass on this set not worth keeping to less experienced players ... like me!

I actually sort of like the idea of these sets as "hand me downs" ... elite players pop them early on and use them, and then eventually toss/sell them to less experienced players as the wipe moves on. This sort of almost reminds me of the spell hunt: as the game progresses and the "elite" players get all the spells, eventually spellbooks/charms/tabs start becoming cheaper and more available, until its like 6 months into the wipe and you can finally get all the spells you need to really check out a new class of mage/shaman/cleric etc and be able to really explore now that you are buffed up enough.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kadaj on December 21, 2014, 04:52:38 AM
The amount of time/effort it goes into putting a 'fancy' set isn't worth it to me. So I guess these sets are good for the thief that logs on and loads books and logs off.  My thief has been demoted to honorary book runner.  It's just easier to roll a mage and be done with it :P
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoss on December 21, 2014, 11:19:31 AM
Quote
Druid set lost 5 resist each while the rogue set has lost 4 damage, 20% regen and more.

The thief set lost 2 damroll and 2.5% critical chance.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Kadaj on December 21, 2014, 12:49:19 PM
Originally 4 damage and 60% regen and 5% crit,  so yeah 4 damage, 2.5% crit and 20% regen. But removing all damage instead of other more utility stats is not very good. Auto sneak/hide can be found elsewhere,  remove the disable or retaliate and add something else. 10% damage done on the dk  set is pretty good, rings, neck, wrists open to stack damage.  It went from a really good set, to an OK set to an alt set, which is what my thief is now. The mage set needs some work, the druid set should be toned down a bit. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: enochvey on December 30, 2014, 06:05:28 PM
with the recent nerfs can we up the drop rate on the barb set please?  0 out of 4 for loads today on group-needed mobs.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Toinu on December 31, 2014, 12:05:24 PM
Just noting that the AC of the shaman set is kinda low. Pieces keep falling apart. They're not made to last.

Janssan-shaman
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Neyman on January 01, 2015, 10:28:56 PM
Random thought: is it sort of odd that the 6 piece DK set gives night vision and immune neg energy as "bonuses"? These don't seem very valuable since a dk can just cast these. I guess impunity is nice, but i somehow don't see a dk getting the full 6 piece set before loading the impunity spell (even getting legend might be easier...). Maybe would be nice to have a more unique bonus like immune silence or immune blind or awareness or sense life.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: Hoodoo on January 02, 2015, 07:55:38 AM
I got the distinct feeling, after the last round of nerfing, that the collective Imm decision was to throw their hands up in the air and give these sets up as a bad job.   Primarily due to the whining of a few people who wanted their lim1 shinies to be shinier in comparison to other people's shinies, over half of these sets have become, at best, levelling gear. 

Some of the caster sets could still be considered remotely useful, and the hard_bash flag on the barb set makes it desirable.  The other melee sets have been nerfed into obscurity, all in the name of preserving the niftycool nature of the domino mask.

Sad, really.  It was a good idea while it lasted (that being up to the point where 2 dam over 6 pieces was considered OP.)

Jason
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: gulca on January 02, 2015, 01:41:28 PM
Random thought: is it sort of odd that the 6 piece DK set gives night vision and immune neg energy as "bonuses"? These don't seem very valuable since a dk can just cast these. I guess impunity is nice, but i somehow don't see a dk getting the full 6 piece set before loading the impunity spell (even getting legend might be easier...). Maybe would be nice to have a more unique bonus like immune silence or immune blind or awareness or sense life.

You see that those bonuses are the same across all sets.

What you are asking is to have the "effects" be more unique towards individual sets which I think should be the case.

There are times though when having an item effect is better than being an effect from a spell. Like having a fly spell vs a can_fly in a no-fly-dt zone.
Title: Re: Item Set Feedback
Post by: eddiex on January 05, 2015, 03:12:57 PM
I got the distinct feeling, after the last round of nerfing, that the collective Imm decision was to throw their hands up in the air and give these sets up as a bad job.   Primarily due to the whining of a few people who wanted their lim1 shinies to be shinier in comparison to other people's shinies, over half of these sets have become, at best, levelling gear. 

Given that I am really the only person who voiced an opinion that was against the original power of the sets, I take this a bit personally.  I really love when people call opinions contrary to theirs whining because it shows how much they love to sniff their own asshole (and how little they respect others opinions).

Here is my experience with the warrior class set:
I built the 6 piece warrior class set after first round of re-balancing, prior to 2nd pass.  It took about 3 days of persistence to acquire 6/6 (imo not very hard to obtain).  After the 2nd pass of re-balancing i still wore the set, but eventually opted into what i felt was a more elite set which was straight damage.  Had this 2nd round of re-balancing not taken place I would have gladly maintained the warrior set throughout my active duration of the wipe, while also having a multi stacked with the gear i eventually passed to my warrior in favor of.

It was only after the final round of re-balancing, in my opinion, the basic class set for the warrior was working as intended.  It finally became worth opting into using individual item pieces.

If I started playing a warrior again this wipe from scratch (no multis with gear), I'd without a doubt try to assemble the class set, not as something to level with, but as reliable gear on a level 30 or legendary character.  The fact is, most valued limited gear takes weeks or months to become available, and is far more desired and sought after than these class sets.  I can't stress enough that there are some items you may not ever obtain in a single or several wipes unless/until the owner quits.

That being said, Jason, take a look around at your Myth peers.  I guarantee 9/10 would love to have one of these 6 piece sets.  Imo, insinuating that the class sets are a complete bust disrespects the time and effort people put into creating and implementing these sets (as well as everyone of your peers who would love to have one).

Finally, there are other sets being implemented as Hoss mentioned that I have not built, have not been revealed, and I imagine are far more difficult to acquire but also far more powerful.  I have found one that would be a major pain to assemble but from seeing the stats of one piece can imagine the final results are phenomenal.