Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Aristox on April 07, 2014, 09:54:01 PM

Title: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Aristox on April 07, 2014, 09:54:01 PM
If you want more details, go read other threads. This will be to the point.

Everybody screwed up. Here is how.

Remington:
He was in a room that he shouldn't have been in (GOD Clan stronghold).  He knew he shouldn't be there.  He should have been reporting the issue loudly and often.

STH/RISE:
They have screwed up often and repeatedly over years.  They get no benefit of the doubt.  They constantly play the martyr when anything goes against them.  They have cheated and been caught over and over.  They treat the immortals like crap at every turn.  In this case they started demanding things from Hoss to repay the loss of a kill on Remington.  When your history with someone is as terrible as STH/RISE's history is with the immortals, getting demanding is not going to go over well.  I am generalizing over the entire clan here but that is a bit unfair, there are a few good seeds in the clan.

Hoss:
First he transferred Remington to his room the moment he saw he killed Elsa in the GOD Clan stronghold.  This was a screw up because Remington was still fighting (and about to die to) Abom and Eker, so he should have peeked in the room beforehand. Mostly bad timing, but still a screw up.  Second he reduced Remington's punishment when STH/RISE got all demand-y.  He should have burned Remington bad and ignored STH/RISE because in this one case they happened to be the aggrieved party.  Telling them to shut the hell up would have been a good response.



The result is when I need to get involved no one walks away happy. So...

Remington gets deleted.
STH/RISE gets to stop complaining.
Hoss gets called out for messing up.

Can I go back to trying to make the game better now?
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Kuss on April 07, 2014, 10:58:36 PM
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: octan on April 07, 2014, 11:17:56 PM
What about some people who complained on forums and got pdeleted?

Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: octan on April 07, 2014, 11:31:18 PM
All the players spend so much time on this game to work on their character(s) and having it just pdeleted because someone in power "feels" like it is... you draw your own conclusion.

I really hater randomers and pkillers and people who just login a few months, get backed up by a big clan and go around pkilling then say "I didn't contribute to the bad image of the clan."

I also do see the point why RISE/STH (I'm in their skype chat channel btw for any of you wondering) are really hated by a segment of arctic.

Funny though, I remember the good 'ole days during shriners and horde when they came around pkilling.  It makes me wonder if the whining was because they didn't have a forum to whine on or is it the younger generation just became/grew up in an environment of whining.  I see whiners who state their alts got pkilled over and over again (HELLO! your alt is in the opposing clan, DUH!) Or people who badmouth/insult people and when they get pked they whine and say "waaah! your bullies yada yada yada!" (huh? common decency? golden rule?-look it up) 

And then we come to RISE/STH, truthfully there really has to be some cheating involved in any game be in here or real life, but seeing every thing that goes wrong your way can't be all cheating!  So give the imms some slack and treat them with respect.  Like, when someone robs you in real life do you go to the police and say, "Hey bapt you policeman, your not doing your job!"

As with real life, a little respect and manners can go a long way in dealing with people, especially those in power.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: eddiex on April 07, 2014, 11:57:28 PM
Justice served. Thank you aristox.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Kir on April 08, 2014, 12:38:53 PM

Remington:
1) So according to Hoss's original story, sanjuro's multi brought remington into the room.
2) Hoss transferred remington out of the room and saved him from pk.
What exactly did Remington do to deserve deletion? Seems like he's just a poor mortal being strung along by immortals.. is it because he didn't report that he was brought into the room by Sanjuro's multi? I am pretty sure he would have assumed Sanjuro is a lvl 35 and lead him there, that the staff was already aware of the bug.
STH\RISE

1) Aristox, you very frequently like to use the term "hyperbole" to describe player's forum comments, so it saddened me when you used hyberbole to describe STH\Rise "screwing up frequently and often over the years". We got in trouble one wipe for clan tagging WILD (which wasn't against the rules), and the only time we were ever mass deleted is because the clan decided to mass dt to protest Hoss's unfair deletion of Profion (also not against the rules). Several times, individual characters in RISE\SOB were deleted, like Tiger, Tim, and David were deleted for "botting" because they were training skills in the guild afk and didn't immediately respond to wizinvis tells (although nowhere in the help rules does it say you need to immediately respond to wizinvis tells, last time i checked, ignoring people wasn't illegal).
     And the "Rise versus the immortals" issue...Suffice it to say, the whole idea of us "being against the staff" is preposterous at best. We have immortals on arctic 33+ who zone with us, who are friends with us, etc. If we are presumed to be "asshats" because we question why we were deleted, then I think the definition of the term needs to be refined.

Hoss
     Absolute power corrupts, and as we have seen, Hoss's unchecked power in this game has turned it into a complete mess. Instead of unbiased immortal he enjoys playing kingmaker and interferes with clan vs clan warfare\zoning\politics on a daily basis. But suffice it to say, he is not always doing negative things, sometimes he even helps Rise\STH. Last saturday for example, we had 4-5 massrips at cyan and then when we killed it, nothing loaded and Hoss was kind enough to give us a prism book.. Yes thats right, the RISE\STH that is hated so much got a free prism book. So I guess we can't be that bad after all can we? My point is we were gladly accepting the book, but other clans would look at that as cheating, and unfortunately it is. I've said before I don't want to play in a game where immortals can constantly pzap\massrip\ delete people for no reason, nor give spells\equip to people for whatever reason. These are the real issues that need to be addressed, although I have a feeling this will not go anywhere but get more people deleted.

Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Hoss on April 08, 2014, 01:03:34 PM
@Kir I assumed he got there from Sanjuro's mortal character, after looking into it later that night it was obviously not the case. Sanjuro had nothing to do with the incident, it was a flaw in the stronghold code. Remington was deleted for knowing of a bug and not reporting it, which is abusing game mechanics.

It is kismet that you mention Cotillian's prismatic spray book, because I was mid typing that into this thread when your response was sent. I watched the long battle with Cyan and felt bad for the amount of effort the group put into such a difficult fight with no reward. I loaded the book and gave it to Xinnix, I have in all transparency removed the spell from Cotillian's repertoire and agree that I never should have handed it out in the first place.

I am going to try to remove myself from the poo-slinging contest we have going here but I did want to state that the treatment of RISE has been an overgeneralization to an extent. We know there are some good grapes in the bunch and that it has been the sour few that have led us to toss the whole lot out. You seem to want to villainize me, and that is fine as I have been over zealous in some of my dealing with some of the respectable members of your clan. We will still continue to guide and shape the game at large into a better state for all players. If that means we need to pull the weeds out every once in a while we will do that, or goal remains the same.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: RichE on April 08, 2014, 01:20:06 PM
I'm satisfied. Adam come join us!
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: remi on April 08, 2014, 02:46:38 PM
RISE-

As I stated in a previous post and will again---even though redundant---to get my point across.

Quite a few of you RISE members have this aura of entitlement about you.  You quite often state things like "(not against the rules)" and "(again not against the rules)".  It is this sort of mentality that gets you in trouble.  There are a myriad of things in this world (real), and in the game that are "not against the rules" but are still shady.  When you continuously push these shady limits over and over and over so the admin has to take time out of their days to govern your actions....you become labeled as nuisances or troublemakers.  It is not just in the game as the same shit happens in the real world. 

Your types are always playing the victim when the same rules you are bending or testing were set up because of people like you.  You think there is some conspiracy against you.  It's not.  It is simple.  People who are honest and respectful are quite often given the benefit of the doubt, shown leniency, because the action was an outlier to normal behavior.  Your actions are chronic.

The simple fact you don't understand this and need this explained to you like you are a 5 year old child is simply a reflection on the type of children (or maybe adults now) your parents have raised and the lack of value and integrity they forgot to teach you.

This of course does not apply to all of RISE but seems to be quite a few of your core members.



Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Bryton on April 08, 2014, 03:06:01 PM
@remi  huh?
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: remi on April 08, 2014, 03:24:07 PM
@Bryton ---Rises reponse to the Remington/Hoss issue.

They were outraged at the punishment---even though the punishment was a week in the abyss where he was going to deadbeat all the equipment he had and all the equipment he had acquired.

More than adequate as a punishment since he had no prior issues, unlike RISE.  I don't know what  Hoss' thoughts were when he was about to set the punishment.....but I can imagine the decisions on what punishments to give out was dictated by a bunch of entitled screaming children barking orders at what he "HAD" to do (instead of maybe calming explaining the situation and then asking politely for retribution).  I personally wouldn't respond to insignificant people ordering me around.

Remember you are playing a game that they run and maintain on their dime-- using their free time.

Again, having to explain my post, leads me to believe you are one of those "entitled" twits.

Sigh at you....
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: remi on April 08, 2014, 03:33:21 PM
and it is "not against the rules" to use a teleport to a character in the game.

Was it shady to use a target that was in a safe god hall? Yes.

The punishments towards RISE I'm sure got harsher and harsher as the infractions built up-----whereas this was Remington's first offense.

So that is what my original message referred to.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Jorquin on April 08, 2014, 04:54:31 PM
this is turning into the bold and the beautiful pretty quickly
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Bryton on April 08, 2014, 04:54:45 PM
@remi  you lost me at aura of entitlement
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: reed23 on April 08, 2014, 05:37:44 PM
Remi - How do you know that it was his first offense?  Are offenses published somewhere?  And is there a guide to rule breaking that you know about that i don't?  1st offense = slap on the wrist, 2nd offense = bend over, if you are Rise = guillotine?  This is what Rise bitches about the most.  We swallow a lot of BS and deal with the punishments for minor rule infractions.  Most of the time we accept it because we know we have huge targets on our backs.  But it kind of pisses us off when we see multiple enemy mages bot skilling for hours in the guild, or other characters breaking the same rules that some of us break and get deleted for, yet a lot of the time, hardly any punishment comes to them.

How many HOWC or OTLW were deleted this wipe?  To my knowledge 1.  I am guessing 20+ rise have been deleted this wipe.  And unless I am mistaken, OTLW and HOWC have broken the same types of rules that RISE have broken.  The funny thing too is people make it sounds like we are the only clan that have broken the rules on multiple occasions.  How long do you think OTLW has botted for?  How many wipes have WILDS/HOWC been accused of game mechanics rules infractions?  This is not the first wipe, I will guarantee that.  Our problem is we publically call people dick suckers and faggots which probably doesn't go over to well.

Not to mention that we start of wipes playing 100% legit with 0 bots and 0 character sharing.  The first 2 months of the last 3 wipes we have not had 1 bot in the clan.  I cannot make that claim in late wipes as people start dropping off and the necessity of botting goes up.  The 5 man new system will help that out for sure.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Hoss on April 08, 2014, 06:20:32 PM
Was going to lock this, but instead just going to ignore it. Keep the discussion civil please, or take it to the Clan Bitching area.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: remi on April 08, 2014, 06:34:21 PM
@reed

A few good points Reed. 

I will say I do not definitively know whether it was his first offense or not.  I think it was simply a cumulative sort of process.  One rise offense here, one rise offense there, and next thing you know your entire clan gets singled out and punished, in some cases, overly excessive....sort of how I would see members of the same gang all getting the harshest punishment even if that particular gang member never had an offense.  (ie...guilt by association).  No tolerance type rule.  Is it fair.  No not always and there is no "set" guide for 1st offence, 2nd offense, etc...personally I think pdeletion is very harsh considering how much time is put into these characters and some lenience should be afforded unless a repeat offender.  But I am not part of the staff; it is not my game or my rules.  So I do my best to play by them.

I believe, as you mentioned in the second part of your message....when you are calling the people who run the game names and spewing profanity it makes it real easy for them to make an example of you.

I know I make reference to real life a lot and this is a game but it seems to fit well when describing my thoughts....if you get pulled over by a cop for speeding and say "just give me my bapting ticket pig" you are definitely getting a ticket, maybe worse.  I know you can't always be polite when emotions are running wild and you are feeling mistreated but I guarantee a nice attitude gives you a much much greater chance to not get a ticket from that cop over the earlier mentioned statement. 


Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Jang Yoo Sung on April 08, 2014, 06:53:18 PM
@remi and to whomever it may concern

you keep referring to the "real world" and try to apply it to the "arctic world"
well in the "real world" there is a known rule of double jeopardy whereby it is forbidden to try someone for the same charges
RISE/STH cheated last wipe(botting, nevertheless there were bots in other clans at the same time but i wont get into that) and got mass pzapped(even clan members who didnt bot)
i believe they got their punishment there so it should not affect them this wipe until they commit another offence
and as we could see from the news post of Dec 6th, 2013..

"As a final note, I urge all of you to play Arctic responsibly and respect your fellow
players and staff. The staff will no longer tolerate outbreaks of cheating or abuse
of game mechanics. This also goes for those few of you that play the game solely to
remove the fun from others. Consider this the only warning you will receive."

..the Gods were pretty pissed as well... however this wipe RISE/STH didn't cheat(as much) and didn't abuse game mechanics
in the beginning of the wipe many people in RISE got deleted for afk-skill training. i do not believe that the offence was grave enough the deserve deletion
now as there is no rule book or code of law that defines which offence leads to which punishment we have to refer to precedent
and never have i seen people being deleted for afk-skill training in the many years of playing in the arctic world
but if that's a new rule...ok fine(was that applied to everyone in the game? i'm not so sure)
even still RISE just soldiered on even though many hours were wasted and they lost their upperhand in the early wipe
if their mass pzap the previous wipe wasnt enough, i believe that getting their chars deleted for afk-skill training should have been enough(if not too drastic)

then profion gets deleted for killing unknowns during war(this is not "playing the game solely to remove the fun from others" as eq was returned to people that were mistakenly killed)
and then the rest of the clan got mass deleted for mass dting
i really think the Gods went overboard there because there seems to be no transparency and alot of discrimination when it comes to punishing RISE/STH
we live in a democracy and i think arctic should also reflect that world
if people commit an offence they should be punished fairly and transparently
Gods should not punish people too gravely depending on their past records even after THEY HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED THEIR PUNISHMENT IN THE PAST
please try to put yourselves in their shoes
they have played the game according to the rules this wipe and i do not believe they should be hated anymore
the idea of a WIPE is to start things over...and also...
please dont refer to people as sour grapes because people can change while sour grapes cannot

@Hoss
you should treat RISE/STH the as any other clan from now and put the past behind you

@RISE/STH
you should also put the past behind you and stop hating Hoss, he and the other immortals do put in alot to maintain and improve this game

i think the war between mortals(RISE/STH) and immortals should stop here
mortals cannot beat immortals therefore mortals shouldnt challenge immortals
at the same time immortals should feel the responsibility to help the game run as smoothly as possible, and deleting people and preventing people from playing is not the option

i really wish this whole thing would stop...

p.s. sorry for all the rambling i dont usually post shit here
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Kir on April 08, 2014, 06:57:19 PM
Remi - How do you know that it was his first offense?  Are offenses published somewhere?  And is there a guide to rule breaking that you know about that i don't?  1st offense = slap on the wrist, 2nd offense = bend over, if you are Rise = guillotine?  This is what Rise bitches about the most.  We swallow a lot of BS and deal with the punishments for minor rule infractions.  Most of the time we accept it because we know we have huge targets on our backs.  But it kind of pisses us off when we see multiple enemy mages bot skilling for hours in the guild, or other characters breaking the same rules that some of us break and get deleted for, yet a lot of the time, hardly any punishment comes to them.

How many HOWC or OTLW were deleted this wipe?  To my knowledge 1.  I am guessing 20+ rise have been deleted this wipe.  And unless I am mistaken, OTLW and HOWC have broken the same types of rules that RISE have broken.  The funny thing too is people make it sounds like we are the only clan that have broken the rules on multiple occasions.  How long do you think OTLW has botted for?  How many wipes have WILDS/HOWC been accused of game mechanics rules infractions?  This is not the first wipe, I will guarantee that.  Our problem is we publically call people dick suckers and faggots which probably doesn't go over to well.

Not to mention that we start of wipes playing 100% legit with 0 bots and 0 character sharing.  The first 2 months of the last 3 wipes we have not had 1 bot in the clan.  I cannot make that claim in late wipes as people start dropping off and the necessity of botting goes up.  The 5 man new system will help that out for sure.

Sorry reed but I disagree... we have never been caught with 50d50 weapons, 10d10 weapons, caught using bugged stronghold glitches that link to high end fights, transferred out pk, using the notes on creation boards to bypass exploration of zones, etc etc. We are not in the same league as wild\howc cheating and never will be.

Outlaw cheating is comparable, but they hit the ground running with bots as soon as the wipe starts and we never do.

So ya, in my mind we don't cheat nearly as bad as the other top clans but somehow we're made out to be the scapegoats. I personally don't cheat bot at all, but then again, we do make it easy for the staff to police us because we don't have people like daniel\ilya running constant propaganda campaigns and to constantly kiss Hoss's ass to cover for aforementioned cheating.

And as for Hoss, I say this with the most sincere compassion and sadness... Aristox bringing you back to to immortal status a few years ago was probably the worst thing for you. You have now spent 15 hours a day of the last however many years involving yourself into mortal affairs and now you're a 40 something with a dead end job, no girlfriend, wife, or kids and nothing else to live for. I feel bad for you man and I hope deleting more players can bring you some joy in your life if that is all indeed you have left. You know how I know these intimate details of your life? because the other immortals laugh at you behind your back and whenever you complain about how lonely you are irl it gets pasted to every irc\skype channel in mud with a tirade of laughter to follow. Good luck and god bless and I hope you find something real in your life, and if not I hope your sandbox stays full of morons for you to toy with, but I fortunately will no longer be one of them.

Hopefully now I will have burned enough bridges so that nobody asks me to play this bapting game again, and I am surely welcoming a forum\siteban. Thanks to all the players who made this game worth playing, don't listen to the garbage about immortals who run this game, this game was running fine without them 15-20 years ago and even a retarded monkey would have fixed clair in the 4 years its been broken.

Peace
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Hoss on April 08, 2014, 07:24:46 PM
I might as well slit my wrists, stay classy there buddy.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: btown on April 08, 2014, 08:28:04 PM
Good riddance.

BTW,  did Hoss just take a selfie?
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: fran on April 08, 2014, 09:04:09 PM
Good riddance.

BTW,  did Hoss just take a selfie?

  No, just showing his Italian roots.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Jorquin on April 09, 2014, 01:04:11 AM
he'll be back, mark my words
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Anthony on April 09, 2014, 08:19:39 AM
The real difference between these two groups of people in question, RISE and WILD, is discretion.


And for Jack to post critique on anyone else's life and its relation to the amount of time they spend in Arctic or anything else is laughable at best.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: btown on April 09, 2014, 09:22:27 AM
Yea I would have to agree.  One thing I have noticed is people who learn on their own wont be so likely to share.  Its the people who have been told everything that doesn't care.  And when you throw a bunch of elite game knowledge in the wrong hands you get a clan like RISE.  Bunch of random pkillers "not that theres anything wrong with that"  with a bunch of knowledge they don't even deserve.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: xellos on April 09, 2014, 09:31:26 AM
Anthony - All I would like to know is, Mr. Discretion, when HOWC camped out FAME's stronghold to exploit the "go straight to Morathian or HCT tower room glitch" did you politely message up the chain before or after you loaded 5-6 shards? Or was it when FAME logged on and noticed what the hell was going on and then Sanjuro came flying in to "fix" it.  I mean i think a big portion of arctic would have loved to bypass the hassle of getting to the mob and load up their stash vault.

Brandon - If you dont get why we kill you, you never will.  You are greedy, selfish, a forum hero and treat members of you're own clan like crap.  We dont keep you from playing arctic, if Locki can get peace for the 13th time in 2 wipes and then tank for us, surely something can be done for you.

Someone has to be the villain in any game you play, and RISE is notorious so Im ok with that, Ive been a villain my whole life.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Anthony on April 09, 2014, 10:12:39 AM
I demand to know how you can so inconsistently use apostrophes. That sort of injustice demands an answer.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: btown on April 09, 2014, 10:37:14 AM
Anthony made a good post and I followed up with more accuracy. 

You self admitted to me before I deleted you off all my accounts that Jack gave you all the zone logs with keywords.  That's all I am saying.  Also I was referring to the likely-hood that Jack was also spoon fed everything for him to so easily hand it out to everybody and their brother.

Back in the day this type of stuff was frowned up.

That's all man, 

Yours Truly'  The first person to ever give you a Cyan book

Brandon

Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: xellos on April 09, 2014, 11:41:04 AM
Jack showed Reed how to do Cyan, Reed shows you Brandon, so by that line of logic you are a forum hero and frowned upon player?
First Cyan book yes, first prism book no.  But then again you probably never even got past the gates of sanction when prism could load there, so how would you know?
Stop spamming this thread with the need to defend yourself. And no I wont give you a that expertly detailed Mithas and Hydra quest walk through that Jack wrote out for me so stop spamming me about it.  Im trying to get Hoss to give me an immortal and giving you that info would be frowned upon.
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: SArT on April 09, 2014, 12:07:09 PM
nah once your an immortal its ok.  Ask Sanjuro and Dan the man jokequin
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: btown on April 09, 2014, 12:25:33 PM
LOL,  u make me laugh.  Reed has told lies before but I don't think he would ever say he told me anything about Cyan.  Reed showed me zero about silvi or cyan.  Also when you told me that Jack gave you all his logs and keywords I asked for 1 specific thing only.  And that was what the hell to do with the figurine that was in the trap safe once I took it to the mage lady.  You still don't know that because that wasn't one of the walk thrus that jack even had.

So try again there little man.  Also Jack didn't show Reed Cyan I showed it to him for info on Lich book and Deep Mine shard.  That is exactly how it went down.

Keep trolling!
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: btown on April 09, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
And as far as STORMS goes.  I lead old and new storms.  I use to lead the old Nytes also.   Yea prism loaded at storms just about as much as hoss gives it to you at cyan.  Not suppose to happen
Title: Re: STH/RISE, Remington and Hoss: A mess
Post by: Aristox on April 09, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
Locking this thread.  If you want to throw insults at each other please start a new thread in the Clan section.