Arctic Mud

NEWS => Development News => Topic started by: Aristox on January 30, 2014, 09:31:33 AM

Title: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Aristox on January 30, 2014, 09:31:33 AM
The Death of thac0

Thac0 as a concept is being removed from the game.

I am not sure how many of you know what thac0 is, or even care.  Some DnD purists might be upset by this change, but we had long ago reached the limit of the system.

Armor as a whole is getting overhauled, and I will go over that in a later post, but thac0 will not be part of it.  I will say that we want armor to mean something for players again, not be a throwaway stat that most players ignore.


Will it Hit?

With thac0 dead, we needed to come up with a new system for deciding if you hit or miss.

We decided to move to a % chance system.  We will combine a base chance (set per guild) with a large weapon skill bonus and the amount of hitroll on the hitter to come up with the percentage. 

The goal is to not allow anyone to have 100% chance to hit without having to put some effort into getting hitroll. We want the majority of melee swings at capped weapon skill for a melee class to hit, but if you have no hitroll you are going to miss quite a bit as well.  We have numbers on all of this already, but they aren't set in stone yet, so I don't feel comfortable sharing them.

The current plan is to expose your personal hit chance % in the score command. This bit isn't done yet because I am waiting to redo the score command as a whole later.

The % is a straight up hit chance, there is no value on the target that prevents the hit from happening.  Sort of..

We are making dodge, parry and shield block universal abilities that can be increased by having the skill.  Also, all 3 can be toggled on and off if you have skill.


Dodge

Every player and mob will have a % dodge chance based on their dexterity.  This can be increased through +dodge chance equipment or by the level of the dodge skill.

Toggling dodge off will remove any bonus from the dodge skill.

Dodge only works against the character you are directly fighting.

The mistake hit from dodging has been removed.  This means you won't be losing your charmies from a dodge hit anymore, because the hit won't happen.


Parry

Every player and mob will have a % parry chance based on their intelligence.  This can be increased through the level of the parry skill.

Toggling parry off will remove any bonus from the parry skill.  Toggling parry on will cause you to lose at least one attack per round.

Parry has also been expanded to work like the fence skill, in that it can work on a large number of attacks per round, from multiple attackers.  Really the parry skill was removed and then the fence skill was renamed to parry.  After that the numbers were reworked.


Shield Block

Every player and mob that is wearing a shield will have a % shield block chance based on their wisdom.  This can be increased through the level of the shield block skill.

Toggling shield block off will remove any bonus from the shield block skill.

Shield block only works against the character you are directly fighting.


The Stats Used for Dodge/Parry/Shield Block

Yes, INT for parry and WIS for shield block may not seem the most obvious, but we can't use DEX everywhere.  We want all the stats to have uses for all of the characters.

I have justifications for those stats, but I will keep them to myself for the moment.  This doesn't mean we won't change them later, or possibly use some combinations of stats.

I am sure you will have questions and comments on this, I will try to answer them.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: gnua on January 30, 2014, 10:51:19 AM
how will armor and bash/kick/punch fit into this? will bash/kick/punch be much like another weapon skill? will armor reduce the opponent's hit chance?
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Aristox on January 30, 2014, 10:55:24 AM
how will armor
I said I will write another post about armor later.

Quote from: gnua
and bash/kick/punch fit into this?
They don't.

Quote from: gnua
will bash/kick/punch be much like another weapon skill?
Nope.

Quote from: gnua
will armor reduce the opponent's hit chance?
Did you read the post?  The answer to your question is no.


This post is about melee weapon swings.  Skills are a totally different thing.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: gulca on January 30, 2014, 01:26:48 PM
About thaco, I killed a lot of brain cells trying to wrap around that concept when I was in middle school.

Nice changes to shield block, parry and dodge hits.

I hope that different weapon type will have innate +%parry on them. Like axe would have no parry bonus, while swords would have a little and staffs would have more.

So I'm assuming you don't need to initiate parry (waste an action) now? And I'm assuming turning the flag on and off will have lag associated with them.

Does it have like a partial parry (like shield block) based on parry skill and weapon used?
1. Max parry + Max weapon = full deflect (no damage) most of time on multiple hits
2. Max parry + low weapon = partial deflect (% of deflected dam depends on weapon skill) on multiple hits
3. Low parry + Max weapon = full deflect on single hit with low percent
4. Low parry + Low weapon = partial deflect on single hit with low percent

So parry skill control parry chance and max number of parry'able hits. Weapon skill controls the damage you can deflect on a successful parry.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Joe on January 30, 2014, 01:38:56 PM
With this system it appears there will be a lot more missing, plus melee has to consider another stat in their equipping. Will this ripple into magic damage/hit chance balance vs. Melee or will the effect be minor enough that such an adjustment wont be needed?
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: corey on January 30, 2014, 02:40:22 PM
I love the idea of moving to a hit % based system.

You mentioned you're not comfortable sharing these numbers at the moment. This means they will be shared? Can we have this hit % show in our score?

I love that this is moving to more of a wow-based raiding system in a sense. I like micro-managing my stats to gain efficiency overall.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Joe on January 30, 2014, 04:41:33 PM
If they show hit % i get the feeling people will want to know dodge % and shield block %  or cry foul on imms cheating on their friends. I love the game but I do statistics all day for a living. I'm sure there are enough math oriented professionals playing that we don't want to turn our leisure periods into another excel spreadsheet.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Dyl on January 30, 2014, 06:19:02 PM
Thief dodge?
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Aristox on January 31, 2014, 01:03:05 PM
About thaco, I killed a lot of brain cells trying to wrap around that concept when I was in middle school.

Nice changes to shield block, parry and dodge hits.

I hope that different weapon type will have innate +%parry on them. Like axe would have no parry bonus, while swords would have a little and staffs would have more.

So I'm assuming you don't need to initiate parry (waste an action) now? And I'm assuming turning the flag on and off will have lag associated with them.

Does it have like a partial parry (like shield block) based on parry skill and weapon used?
1. Max parry + Max weapon = full deflect (no damage) most of time on multiple hits
2. Max parry + low weapon = partial deflect (% of deflected dam depends on weapon skill) on multiple hits
3. Low parry + Max weapon = full deflect on single hit with low percent
4. Low parry + Low weapon = partial deflect on single hit with low percent

So parry skill control parry chance and max number of parry'able hits. Weapon skill controls the damage you can deflect on a successful parry.

Yes, toggling parry or dodge or shield block will give you a round of lag.  You can use the command to tell if you are parrying/dodging/shield blocking without any lag though.

As for your parry ideas (weapon skill/parry skill and parry bonuses on items), we haven't actually gotten to the point of rewriting the skill yet, just the system that invokes the chance to parry.  All skills will get a rewrite later once the base systems are done.  I will keep these ideas in mind when we get there. Thanks.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Aristox on January 31, 2014, 01:04:36 PM
With this system it appears there will be a lot more missing, plus melee has to consider another stat in their equipping. Will this ripple into magic damage/hit chance balance vs. Melee or will the effect be minor enough that such an adjustment wont be needed?

We haven't gotten to spell hit chance yet.  It will be changing as well, so expect it to be similar to the melee one.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Aristox on January 31, 2014, 01:08:15 PM
I love the idea of moving to a hit % based system.

You mentioned you're not comfortable sharing these numbers at the moment. This means they will be shared? Can we have this hit % show in our score?

I love that this is moving to more of a wow-based raiding system in a sense. I like micro-managing my stats to gain efficiency overall.

Yes, the % chance will be available, probably in score (I am considering breaking the score command up into smaller bits).
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Aristox on January 31, 2014, 01:09:56 PM
If they show hit % i get the feeling people will want to know dodge % and shield block %  or cry foul on imms cheating on their friends. I love the game but I do statistics all day for a living. I'm sure there are enough math oriented professionals playing that we don't want to turn our leisure periods into another excel spreadsheet.

I doubt that will happen (the spreadsheet stuff).  If it does, let me know and we can make things more cut and dry.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Aristox on January 31, 2014, 01:10:40 PM
Thief dodge?

Yes, thieves have dodge currently.  Was there more to your question?
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Hoss on January 31, 2014, 06:08:53 PM
5 posts in a row...take it easy there cowboy!
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Aristox on January 31, 2014, 07:14:47 PM
I am interacting over here. Get back in your cage!
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Jorake on February 01, 2014, 01:02:43 PM
I understand the concept behind giving all characters a chance to dodge/parry/shield block. Why not give them all punch/kick/bash too? Every race has feet/hands. So they can punch/kick. Every char with a shield can slam it into someone and knock them down. Also, since there are alot of daggers/short blades. Maybe we can give backstab to all classes? I know in D&D, even if your class doesnt have that skill you can still roll for a chance of it landing!....

I personally feel like you are diving a bit to deep into all this.... Bringing out some new changes? Sure that sounds awesome. But now mage's can parry too? Can we bring back assassins? I wanna bash, backstab people.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Jorake on February 01, 2014, 01:04:05 PM
***NEW META***

Globed/SS White Robe mages, with 600hp parry/shield blocking as tanks! HUURAH
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Hoss on February 01, 2014, 01:22:20 PM
Quote
I understand the concept behind giving all characters a chance to dodge/parry/shield block. Why not give them all punch/kick/bash too? Every race has feet/hands. So they can punch/kick. Every char with a shield can slam it into someone and knock them down. Also, since there are alot of daggers/short blades. Maybe we can give backstab to all classes? I know in D&D, even if your class doesnt have that skill you can still roll for a chance of it landing!....

I personally feel like you are diving a bit to deep into all this.... Bringing out some new changes? Sure that sounds awesome. But now mage's can parry too? Can we bring back assassins? I wanna bash, backstab people.

The base %chance to parry, dodge, shield block is set on the guild. For example Warriors might have a 20% base chance to shield block where a mage might have a 1% base. A Warrior might have a shield block skill to raise the chance higher whereas a mage likely will not. These numbers are of course just for example.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Jorake on February 01, 2014, 02:17:04 PM
That explained quite a bit. And it makes more sense. I apologize.. I didn't think about it like that from the start:) It is sort of odd to know a game I've been playing since I was 15yrs old(27 now) is going to change so much.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Thymorical on February 02, 2014, 12:41:57 PM
not really sure why im posting being i have quit for good because hoss deleted me and some immortal but  I think it be kinda nice to see goblin warrior with fence skill and a shield owning it up as a tank.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: jingo on February 03, 2014, 01:10:06 PM
Missing a lot sounds like a frustrating experience for new players - is there anything to mitigate that, or is the base chance relatively high (e.g. 30-50%) so it won't be a frustrating experience for them?

Also, I'm not sure if you're considering this, but when the MUD I worked on redid their thac0 system we re-used the new system for our chance-to-land for skills.  The only difference was that different skills had different target chances to land.  So melee attacks had a targeted chance to land of 50%, but bash had something in the area of 25%. +5 hitroll bumped your melee chance to 51%, but bash only to 25.5%.

This had the happy side effect (happy, for us) to make +hitroll useful since it helped things like backstab and bash land.  On arctic that might be a bit overpowered though.  Our primary goal was to make +1 hitroll as useful as +1 damage though.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: gulca on February 03, 2014, 01:51:22 PM
Missing a lot sounds like a frustrating experience for new players - is there anything to mitigate that, or is the base chance relatively high (e.g. 30-50%) so it won't be a frustrating experience for them?

I always like the 100X misses on worms and spiders in the sewers while leveling with training gears.

I think the real way to do hits and misses on a moving target is to use the "relative" skill + level between the hitter and the target. So 2 lvl ones fighting each other would have the same hit-rate like 2 lvl 30s fighting each other. 50% chance would be a good number.

Now when a lvl 1 tries to hit a lvl 30s, you will see the lvl 1 misses a lot and the lvl 30 hitting at 98%.

In a perfect system, a lvl 1 char would take the same amount of time killing lvl 1 worms and when at lvl 5, he would take the same amount of time killing a lvl 5 goblin.

For example, not taking armor, dex into account:
Hit chance = 50% (base) + (level_player - level_target) / 100 + (weapon_player - weapon_target) / 100

Assuming level adds or minus max of 29% and weapons another 20%, you will get possibility of close to 99%.

Here are some numbers in different scenarios (max skill at 20)
1. player: lvl 1, weapon skill at 1
    target: lvl 5, weapon skill at 3
chance to hit for player: 0.5 - 0.04 - 0.02 = 0.46 (46%)
chance to hit for target: 0.5 + 0.04 + 0.02 = 0.56 (56%)

2. player: lvl 30, weapon skill at 20
    target: lvl 5, weapon skill at 3
chance to hit for player: 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.17 = 0.92 (92%)
chance to hit for target: 0.5 - 0.25 - 0.17 = 0.08 (8%)

So first scenario, you will see a lot of hits between both fighters and 2nd scenario, the lower level will almost always miss.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Gahris on February 03, 2014, 02:47:47 PM
A potential pitfall of dex affecting dodge/parry is that what if dex is also the damage stat for the class. For example if say you have a warrior who's damage stat is str, or a mage with int  a cleric with wis, and a thief with dex.   I would see the thief having a distinct advantage, unless ofcourse the damage stat of the other classes and similar additional affects.

I think a solution would be to have the stats  do the same thing for all classes, and just have the classes have different stat needs.
Ie melee dmg is str
ie  melee dodge is dex
ie  spell dmg is int
ie spell slots is wis
ie hps and saves con

How much you get from each point could vary depending on class. Ie warriors might not get a lot of spell dmg from int and mages might  get less melee dmg for str.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: sart on February 03, 2014, 03:07:37 PM
You know that thieves are the best at dodge under the current system too no?  I think it is intentional.. why would a cleric be able to dodge as well as a thief?

That doesn't even make sense.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Joe on February 04, 2014, 03:35:01 PM
Lets just make stats and skills like Elder Scrolls already!

I actually like that system but it would be pretty lame in Arctic.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Alecto on February 04, 2014, 08:00:49 PM
I am sure there will still be +%hit gear in the game, replacing +hr, so hopefully we don't all have to group with druids to get past level 2.  I do have fond memories of 2 tic fights with bats in haven forest tho...good times!
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Grimwar on October 10, 2014, 07:45:05 PM
I applaud the general direction toward standardizing the game IAW LUBE but am concerned the proposed change may be a bridge too far where the tail begins to wag the dog:

- Consistency.  We risk sacrificing even fantasy logic - wherein physical stats affect physical skills, and mental stats affect the non-physical.  And in order to address further inconsistencies, will we simply upend all such logic altogether?  For example, will spells also have some chance to hit or dodge based on another spread of stats - and so what then is the real difference between physical and spell attacks?  Surely there must be more reasonable solutions to balance relative stat importance but, at the same time, recognize actual differences between stats vis a vis classes?

- Identity.  We risk losing any semblance to "ArcticMud" - a game based loosely around D&D classes in a Dragonlance setting?  If class (guild) is fundamentally just a set of skills and spells then, for consistency's sake, take this direction to its logical end; a customizable system where players choose their own set of skills and spells, in lieu of any class.  No question it could work but, to many players, such a radical change may risk losing any semblance to the ArcticMud we've known since 1993 (for me).

Grim

P.S. Perhaps our dilemma indicates a higher order problem/solution set.  There may be basic skills common to all, such as Dodge (which physical classes spend much more time perfecting, even combining with attacks), but Parry is an actual learned skill specific to a particular weapon.  I would even suggest that Shield be considered a weapon skill of its own - albeit more defensive oriented.  For another thread...

Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: enochvey on October 22, 2014, 08:00:03 PM
I couldn't even read the rest of the post before responding...


"The mistake hit from dodging has been removed.  This means you won't be losing your charmies from a dodge hit anymore, because the hit won't happen."

How will Grahm cap group mates now?

Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: enochvey on October 22, 2014, 08:07:30 PM
On a more serious note, the change sounds good, but depends on the details as we find them out later.

I've had a gearset for most of the wipe now with a lot of -ac, and it's proven very useful for soloing the various filler mobs I solo most of the time in mid-high zones. however, I've noticed once I start fighting mobs in harder zones the -ac does nothing, so it would be nice to have some of that dmg avoidance back when doing harder content.

I just don't want mobs 5-7 levels below me being able to nibble me to death. A lot of what I've been able to do this wipe has relied on the swarms of smaller mobs not being able to overwhelm me, so I'd like to be able to maintain that type of control over easier content.
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Brafu on October 22, 2014, 08:08:59 PM
He'll still decap people by auto assisting when someone tries to remove tent/hold/para. You can't hold a good grahm down!
Title: Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
Post by: Gramm on October 30, 2014, 05:36:58 PM
Shenanigans!!!!!! decapping group members is the only reason to accept the more than normally weaksauce roll damage!
weakkkk shenanigans!!  shenanigans!! shenanigans!!
the sauce is weakening!!