Arctic Mud

NEWS => NEWS => Topic started by: Hoss on October 20, 2013, 07:31:33 PM

Title: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Hoss on October 20, 2013, 07:31:33 PM
State of the Mud Address

Thank you all for taking the time to read this long winded thread. I hope that through this post I can shed some light
on the direction of the mud, timing, pwipes and new features and changes on the horizon.

Arctic has always been a great game, the combination of sandbox style development coupled with the dynamic content
generated by the players keeps us coming back for more. We all have our faults and I know we haven't always seen eye to eye,
but I hope that we can all bury whatever hatchets we have and move the game forward.

Class Design: I wanted to set the stage and shine a little light into the future of classes by divulging some
information about class design. Over the next few wipes we will be redesigning each class from the ground up. Nothing is
on or off the table at this point but the guiding philosophy will be to give most classes the ability to fill multiple
roles.

We will be keeping the holy trinity around, Tanking, Healing and Damage but we want players to be able to do more with
less. A Warrior for example, could become a great tank or swap and do some needed damage, a Druid could easily play main
healer and switch to damage when needed. We want the combinations to make sense and be more balanced for smaller groups,
not being able to run a zone because you dont have a Barbarian or have a 14+ heal Cleric online is something we want to
get away from. We hope to have enough uniqueness in each class that you can select something that fits your gameplay
without making each role generic and bland.

A while back we posted that one class most likely would not make the cut in the next wipe. That class is the Scout. I
won't go into any specifics other than the class did not play well with the current mechanics and vision we have for the
class. The Scout will be replaced by a completely overhauled Ranger class and we will release more about the class when
we have the design in a more finalized state.

Mechanics: To accomplish the class design we will be implementing several new game mechanics. The first of these new
mechanics is something we call 'weapon attack skills'. The skill 'long blades' is pretty boring so we are creating a
mechanic to add some life and variety to gameplay. Weapon attack skills are new skills that use the weapon class
(piercers, bludgeon, etc...) of the wielded weapon to perform different types of attacks. The weapon attack skills have
3 different types, a basic attack, an affect attack which adds different affects onto the target and a finisher attack.
The basic and affect attack can be used to unlock the finishing attack. In order to have the system effectively, we
collapsed the 'long blade' and 'short blade' into a single 'swords' class. This change means some short blades were
moved into the piercers category. The two-handed skill was completely removed and the weapons were placed into the
appropriate class.

We are also building a new mechanic to handle affects both positive and negative that occur as a result of a skill or
spell. Our goal with this mechanic is to allow for 'crowd control' type affects to work more of the time but limit
stacking/overuse of them. We are spreading crowd control abilities and leveling the playing field so that more classes
can perform them. Our hope is that players won't always need a Warrior to bash because a similar crowd control affect
can be delivered by another class. We are deep into the design of this system so I won't disclose to much but we are
trying to keep the mechanic balanced so that it affects players and mobs the same way. Our focus is to keep the
mechanics the same between PvP and PvE.

Some quick highlights on other mechanics that will be making their way into the game:

Zones: The next wipe will bring a complete rewrite of an old zone. I hope that I can do as good as a job as Sanjuro has
done with Dargaard and we hope that we can keep refreshing old content for you to explore. Our goal is to redesign older
zones more to the Dragonlance theme in the War of the Lance timeline. We will be starting with the core zones and moving
out from there. This of course, is a long project and will take the longest but we will strive to keep fresh content
coming in each wipe in some shape or another.

Pwipe: A pwipe is coming, the unknown is exactly when. A lot of code and a lot of creation changes need to be made
before we can pwipe and the timing of that is just too much in flux to be able to lock down a date. We are open to
listening to arguments for a wipe just to wipe, but aren't sold that it is a great idea.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Jorquin on October 20, 2013, 07:50:19 PM
cool!
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Alecto on October 20, 2013, 07:54:57 PM
rangers are coming back!
I never cared much for scouts anyway, but I think Bumer part III won't be in the works for poor Ilya...
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: agarash on October 20, 2013, 08:11:49 PM
Still interest to know when is the expected wipe date. Possible to inform whether is on November-December'13 or much later?
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: reed23 on October 20, 2013, 08:17:11 PM
I applaud the large effort of the small staff to take on such a large project and big changes.  We have read posts about the personal lives of the immortals in charge and the time constraints they have given their current situation.  Big game changes will take huge time commitments, so thank you for sacrificing to make the game more fun for us free-loaders.  Changes generally attract old players to come back and see whats all the hubbub about the new things.  The changes sound very cool and will be very fun to try out when they are implemented.

I have a very hard time understanding any justification of leaving the XP tables where they are.  Everyone (to my knowledge) who has posted on the subject has not enjoyed the new XP tables.  I don't know how much more people need to post and express their frustration to get the staff to understand that it is not fun. 

Regarding the Pwipe, the news really surprises me.  It sounds that there is going to be hundreds if not thousands of hours that will go into the listed changes.  I am not sure why you would want the game to continue limping along (especially as we enter Winter when player numbers are traditionally higher than Summer months) when an interim wipe would bring back several players and then introduce/test some of the changes slowly during the wipe to excite people for the wipe to come when the big stuff would enter.  I personally know of dozens of people who are waiting to return to the game when a pipe is announced, not when big changes to the game arise.  I think the staff is missing a huge advertising/recruiting/call it what you will opportunity to bring people back for a "wipe to wipe" wipe that will keep people around as info is slowly introduced for the big wipe to come.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Hoss on October 20, 2013, 08:56:49 PM
XP: The change was meant to be a slight buffer so that players wouldn't race to level 30 in 2 hours and then ask themselves "Now what?". We do not want the xp treadmill to be too harsh that people stop halfway, but we do want to ensure that some level of resistance is there to provide enough exercise.

Wipe: We cannot introduce much mid-wipe, most the changes require a full wipe to be implemented. I was purposefully vague with dates as we just aren't close enough to a point that Aristox and I are comfortable with to start staging a wipe.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: reed23 on October 20, 2013, 09:08:24 PM
@Hoss - My post was very shitty, let me clarify:

First, regarding the XP - I think you guys did accomplish one of your primary objectives this wipe (eliminate quick lvling, eliminate trash chars from being created easily, etc.).  However, there are several people who quit halfway as u eluded to.  I have posted this 2 times, I will post it again.  Revert XP tables 1-25ish, somewhere in-between on levels 25-28, and current xp for 28-30.  That allows people to xp up to grouping stages solo and rather quickly, but requires lots of "exercise" to get to lvl 30.

Regarding Wipe - my bad.  What i was trying to say is Wipe just to Wipe now.  A lot of people are looking forward to a fresh start, not huge changes.  It will give you guys more time to code/make your changes, and then implement all that jazz in 6-8 months.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Kir on October 20, 2013, 09:09:11 PM
@Hoss... believe me, getting to 30 in 2 hours in arctic what is not a "now what" type of scenario, there is sooooo much content, plus ranking\skilling\legending that that is not even close to being an issue. Level 30 is basically where the real game starts in my opinion (this is a complement about arctic so please take it that way and don't be offended).

And as for pwipe: my 2 cents is pwipe just to pwipe, the playerbase is itching badly for a pwipe and we need something to do on our downtime during the upcoming holidays. When you gentlemen are ready to implement the LUBE changes, we will gladly accept another wipe, and hopefully this scenario will be more stress free due to not having to worry about deadlines.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: RichE on October 20, 2013, 09:37:32 PM
It takes me a bit to set up leave dates so can we not have, "pwipe this friday." Just a request :).
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: xellos on October 20, 2013, 09:38:12 PM
pwipe the mudd please.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Gnua on October 20, 2013, 09:52:41 PM
@Hoss... believe me, getting to 30 in 2 hours in arctic what is not a "now what" type of scenario, there is sooooo much content, plus ranking\skilling\legending that that is not even close to being an issue. Level 30 is basically where the real game starts in my opinion (this is a complement about arctic so please take it that way and don't be offended).

For me the game starts at level 26. 4 heals on a cleric, very good rescue on a tank. Below that point, you are doing boring stuff while all your friends are having fun and asking you to level up faster. Above that point, your friends are asking you to join the group and telling you to make coffee when you tell them you need to log off and go to sleep. At that point there is so much left to do. popping gear, popping books, ranking, coins, major coins, and uber coins, rolling a character with better stats. I have played casually on and off since 1997 and I always felt there was room for someone like me until this wipe.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Baxter on October 20, 2013, 10:03:10 PM
I agree with wiping right now for the sake of wiping.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Neal on October 20, 2013, 10:12:09 PM

Wipe: We cannot introduce much mid-wipe, most the changes require a full wipe to be implemented. I was purposefully vague with dates as we just aren't close enough to a point that Aristox and I are comfortable with to start staging a wipe.

Then don't worry about that about introducing the new content just yet. Everyone has been patient, nothing will change that. But I'm sure more people than not, will agree that the active numbers on mud, on a consistent basis, does not indicate that it is in a "mid-wipe" state.

Wipe soon (give a reasonable time frame to prepare, if applicable) to get some players back and establish these newer clans /individuals that joined us this wipe before the big changes come down the road.

Thanks.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: patersmith on October 20, 2013, 11:20:14 PM
Nice.

I can play a Ranger again! 
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: patersmith on October 20, 2013, 11:36:19 PM
When I read Gnua's post, I tried to remember when arctic started.. and I could not. 
I began the first  Winter when arctic was first up. That was either 1990 or 1991 (im pretty sure, because I was just finishing school then.)   So I went to wikipedia and could not find an entry for Arctic.
It Does have a entry for DIKU muds and ARCTIC is mentioned in the Examples list (the last of nine entries).  Several of the other named muds have links but Arctic does not.

It might be a very good idea to have an entry there to induce more player to try arctic.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: patersmith on October 20, 2013, 11:57:13 PM
I just read this..
Arctic MUD is a MUD, a text-based multiplayer online role-playing game, set in the world of the popular Dragonlance fantasy series.[1] Arctic opened in March 1992. The player creates and develops an in-game persona, advancing their character to higher levels through adventuring, defeating monsters and completing quests.

I don't remember it this way, because by 1992 I finished University and I remember playing Sept-Dec before I finished school.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Attai on October 21, 2013, 12:26:50 AM
XP: The change was meant to be a slight buffer so that players wouldn't race to level 30 in 2 hours and then ask themselves "Now what?". We do not want the xp treadmill to be too harsh that people stop halfway, but we do want to ensure that some level of resistance is there to provide enough exercise.

To me the game doesnt even start until lvl 30.  To be honest I do not like the lower level zones and I do not like to solo.  I was one of those that stopped half way this wipe because I stopped caring and didnt want to spend the time to finish leveling.

If you have to make it harder to get to 30 then make it old xp table to 28 and 28-30 be same as now.  This allows people to get to 28 and be somewhat useful in a group.

I'm excited that you're bringing the ranger class back, hopefully its not too different than what it was before.  I did not like the scout class at all.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: DCPTY1986 on October 21, 2013, 01:04:44 AM
wipe for the sake of wiping, bring back the old rangers, tweak them throughout the wipe however you feel is best, lower xp tables from 1-25, make it harder from 25-30.  Make it so White Robes aren't completely worthless, maybe something similar to how they were when they were first put in. For example the extra added prism specs were good, but the 600 dam shards of arcana weren't!

Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: xellos on October 21, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
How about you set a time for everyone to join 1 of those anon voice servers, and listen to the players voiced opinion.  I don't think that anything we actually post on the forums gets a real thought, it just gets tossed in the sandbox.  Maybe if you heard what the players are saying in real time voice chat, you might get a better understanding of their views.  That and I'm sure Hoss sounds girly, just need confirmation.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: snax on October 21, 2013, 06:41:19 AM
XP: The change was meant to be a slight buffer so that players wouldn't race to level 30 in 2 hours and then ask themselves "Now what?". We do not want the xp treadmill to be too harsh that people stop halfway, but we do want to ensure that some level of resistance is there to provide enough exercise.

Wipe: We cannot introduce much mid-wipe, most the changes require a full wipe to be implemented. I was purposefully vague with dates as we just aren't close enough to a point that Aristox and I are comfortable with to start staging a wipe.

Going to throw in my 8 cents that are left before I bounce my check (background image:insanity)

How about weighting levels 1-8 to suck, and 14-17 to suck and 29-30 instead of 22+ increasingly stupidly sucking

Rationale:  keep them down early and force new players to learn, slow down the first hour of wipe rush, give a hiccup during critical buffing levels during the mid stage (a 15th lightning bolt is comparable to a 21 l bolt, same for bash and hp/profiency isn't a huge rush)

Spreading the hate over a  few instances would make levelling much less miserable late in character development.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: btown on October 21, 2013, 09:35:09 AM
Wipe now we are bored,  fix xp tables.  make big changes in 2 years
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Zozen on October 21, 2013, 09:37:03 AM
Hoss: thanks for the update, looks intriguing.

XP: I like the current xp. With ranking at any level it makes sense it should take "normal people" a while to get to L30. It also makes zoning more interesting. Skills are appropriately skilled, etc.

pwipe: give people at least 2 weeks notice

Sean

Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Basher on October 21, 2013, 11:07:47 AM
Wipe it.

Also, as Sean said, give good notice so that people can plan the rush madness at wipe. I know I came back after years off after receiving a mailer that excited a fair few others.

PS. the xp tables --- unfortunately after decades of playing the pbase has now figured out the game to get to level 30 and any attempt to forcefully slow this down is going to be a grind because it is an artificial hurdle that just sucks time from the players and gives no added gameplay value. Time, that most players don't really have to give to the game anymore.

Let the game progress and naturally flow into the arena of eq dominated game. A lot of high level zones, need legend or a lot of eq gathering to get done anyway....that rounding up of eq for the end game is a more rewarding in the rush than mindless xping in the low-mid area for players who have been there and done that before and have little interest in spending more time at the low end of the game. It's just the result a more expert pbase contrasted to the 90s.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Hoss on October 21, 2013, 12:23:14 PM
XP tables: we will be looking at real data to make the decisions on this, we cannot come up with much that works based on the anecdotal reports we receive here. Very likely everyone is forgetting that there was a significant buff to xp gains that went in mid wipe to really help the solo player out. I don't want to go back to the old days when there were 120 people online and only 4 of them had reached level 30 and I do not want it to be so easy that it becomes a meaningless exercise. The xp gains will be less painful and easier for us to adjust as a system. Our real goal here is to improve the core mechanics so that you don't even notice the xp component.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Hoss on October 21, 2013, 12:39:35 PM
How about you set a time for everyone to join 1 of those anon voice servers, and listen to the players voiced opinion.  I don't think that anything we actually post on the forums gets a real thought, it just gets tossed in the sandbox.  Maybe if you heard what the players are saying in real time voice chat, you might get a better understanding of their views.  That and I'm sure Hoss sounds girly, just need confirmation.

So, yeah...no way is this ever going to happen. If you cannot put together a cohesive thought in a forum post I don't really think it will get received better in some voice chat. Arctic is a text based MUD and Skype is for suckers. You might get to catch Sanjuro on chatroulette, but you do that at your own risk.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: DCPTY1986 on October 21, 2013, 03:08:58 PM
So are all of these doing more with less ideas part of the LUBE project? Or has LUBE been thrown in the garbage?
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Chisul on October 21, 2013, 04:25:04 PM
Thank you.

That said, I hate to be the one dissenting voice...but I will be sad to see scouts evaporate. I've legend a mtn each wipe, had a legend ocean, and tried...unsuccessfully to solo a sky scout to legend. The instinct mechanic is a blast, fence and riposte make for so much fun and allowed for some variation to the weapon skill choices, and roar is probably my favorite single skill/effect in the game. Alas, all things must come to an end.

I am very excited to see the changes happen!

1. Pwipe now just because would be fun.

2. I'm totally indifferent on exp table changes.

3. Rangers will be neat to have back again, I just hope they are not a restoration of the "old" bashing Druids with bow skill/extra shot. The damage output was nice, but I thought the class lacked flavor and personality.

4. Zone revamps based on the the books will be awesome!

Matt
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: corey on October 21, 2013, 05:11:01 PM
But....my king's shield..........MY king's shield

Do a two month wipe and everyone will applaud you for it. No one enjoys these long wipes.

Two month wipe, test the exp tables to see if they're where you want them to be. Test whatever else you need to test. Get Xak ready (I'm just going to assume that's the zone being redone) and wipe again on Dec 20.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Hoss on October 21, 2013, 06:18:37 PM
So are all of these doing more with less ideas part of the LUBE project? Or has LUBE been thrown in the garbage?

They are part of the overall Lube experience.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Bryton on October 21, 2013, 08:09:52 PM
I want a wipe now, and I will random 1 person every day until it happens.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Alecto on October 21, 2013, 08:15:45 PM
I agree with Corey (*shudder*)
I think the low #s on even at peak play times shows a diminishing interest in play this wipe (13 visible players on right now at 10pm EST), and a pwipe would bring more people back.  Also, a short wipe would allow a beta test period for some changes. 

I will repeat my suggestion of a tournament-style wipe that is only a week long with a MINOR prize (+ stat medal or similar) for highest rank/level at the end of the week.  This would truly allow a beta test for rangers: even if they were totally OP or complete wimps its hard to break the balance of a game like arctic in just 7 days.

Imagine the pk battles when people know its all over in less than a week!  No deep-renting, no 15 hours Time of the Twins grinding, no clan strongholds (unless they are amazing money makers...).  Then, when the week is over, re-wipe and have a traditional wipe.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: walters16 on October 21, 2013, 08:20:02 PM
I look forward to having more players come back and hopefully stay longer than 1 month just for the RUSH.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: corey on October 21, 2013, 08:20:41 PM
I agree with Corey (*shudder*)
I think the low #s on even at peak play times shows a diminishing interest in play this wipe (13 visible players on right now at 10pm EST), and a pwipe would bring more people back.  Also, a short wipe would allow a beta test period for some changes. 

I will repeat my suggestion of a tournament-style wipe that is only a week long with a MINOR prize (+ stat medal or similar) for highest rank/level at the end of the week.  This would truly allow a beta test for rangers: even if they were totally OP or complete wimps its hard to break the balance of a game like arctic in just 7 days.

Imagine the pk battles when people know its all over in less than a week!  No deep-renting, no 15 hours Time of the Twins grinding, no clan strongholds (unless they are amazing money makers...).  Then, when the week is over, re-wipe and have a traditional wipe.

I'm a very sensible person. There's no shame in agreeing with me.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: reed23 on October 21, 2013, 10:30:14 PM
Hoss - How many posts requesting a wipe do we need to get to for you to wipe it for the sake of wiping?!?
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Skyler on October 21, 2013, 10:45:42 PM
Can I do something as simple as voting to wipe?

However, I like the xp tables. I prefer to skill up while i'm leveling as opposed to waiting until I'm 30.

Now my work shows off when I finally hit that 1x mark for the first time.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: gulca on October 21, 2013, 10:53:18 PM
Here is a suggestion.

Do a bi-weekly eq zap on the playerbase (preferably Friday). That way, all the eq will be in zone and we can all still log our naked legends to rush through zones using shop eq, or camp out zones to prevent others from coming in.

Go rusted longsword and bronze shield.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Jorquin on October 22, 2013, 04:17:26 AM
if you zapped all players every 2 weeks there would be little point to play, since anything you earn will be gone shortly after you get it. many players don't have the time to keep up with the decay treadmill as it is (on a larger scale, when you're playing with a decently sized group of people), repeatedly zapping equipment would alienate a large portion of the time poor player group.

personally i'm on the fence on the "wipe just to wipe" scenario. players want a fresh start so they can have fun  and it would also bring people back to play (which is always a good thing), whereas staff want to  finish some of the fundamental changes they have in the pipeline before wiping.

both arguments have their merits
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Aristox on October 22, 2013, 07:37:10 AM
Hoss - How many posts requesting a wipe do we need to get to for you to wipe it for the sake of wiping?!?

It isn't about solely about numbers.  One problem with these forums is that quite a number of people that post here do not play, pwipe or not.   The other problem with these forums is that a lot of people who play do not ever come to these forums.  So number of posts or polls are nothing but fuzzy math, they are indicators but they aren't solid proof.


What influences us is well reasoned arguments that are free from hyperbole.   Think about the majority of the player-base, not just your own personal situation.  We want the players to play and enjoy the game, but we can't base our decisions on a minority of the players who use these forums, especially when it is sprinkled with a pile of people who no longer player.


All that said, the responses to this thread are helping your cause (if your cause is a pwipe sooner rather than later).
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: DCPTY1986 on October 22, 2013, 08:14:24 AM
With that kind of response I feel like never coming back.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: reed23 on October 22, 2013, 08:30:26 AM
Aristox - i hear what u are saying, but i dont think it is appropriate to discount your whole forum.  If you want responses on a forum (if you truely do value the players thoughts), I would highly recommend not to say - oh, well most people didnt post, or the math is fuzzy, or evidence is not concrete. To me that is demorilizing.

On another note, my non hyperbole persuasive essay is - there are 10-20 people who play this game right now with very limited grouping going on.  ?If you wipe, there will be 100 people playing.  The more people playing = good.  Therefore, wipe = good.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Aristox on October 22, 2013, 08:56:57 AM
Aristox - i hear what u are saying, but i dont think it is appropriate to discount your whole forum.  If you want responses on a forum (if you truely do value the players thoughts), I would highly recommend not to say - oh, well most people didnt post, or the math is fuzzy, or evidence is not concrete. To me that is demorilizing.

It was not meant to be demoralizing.  What I am trying to point out is when you say "I must be right, look at how many people agree with me on in this thread!", I don't take that as a solid argument.

I honestly love a lot of the serious ideas that come through on the forums, I just don't have a lot of time to implement them all.

I read every post on these forums (except the clan bitching, I skip some of those), I guess the problem is I only reply when I see momentum in the thread. I could reply more.

Heck, I loved Jorake's clan vault idea from the General Discussion forum, but it is really low priority.   I also liked some of the ideas around the world merchant in a few other threads, but they are also low priority.

I value well reasoned arguments and opinions.  I tend to ignore snark and hyperbole.  I deleted a thread by corey last night, not because the topic was poor, but because it was delivered in corey's typical snarky style.  I would like to see a thread about corey's topic, but when you start it off with a jerky attitude it will become useless quickly.

I guess my point is I value your opinions, but the context and format of those opinions matter as well.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: corey on October 22, 2013, 09:28:16 AM
Attainable unattainables? I was going for small wit. I actually didn't know I come off snarkily.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: btown on October 22, 2013, 01:16:13 PM
Have you ever warred the peanut gallery Aristox?  You won't win...

 
cackle
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: sart on October 22, 2013, 02:23:53 PM
Please please please don't wipe!!!!!

I play and I need another 9 months to complete this thing I'm working on!

Oh wait I self deleted... carry on.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Rezin on October 22, 2013, 02:29:51 PM
I also think the xp is right where it should be, it shouldn't be easy to level to 30, with as long as someone keeps a character and as much time is put into it, more than 1% of that time should be gaining actual levels.  Especially since ranking is wide open and better than ever now.

I am an active player but holding off for a wipe, those first 6 months of a wipe are great, its just so much fun anything less seems boring.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Cosmo on October 22, 2013, 02:50:51 PM
Wipe: Agreed it's time for a wipe - been 7 months now. Wasn't the plan to wipe every 6 months? Like many players, I usually play the first 4-5 months each wipe, get a couple chars to legend+ and then lose interest. (2-week notice so we can dump our gfs and quit our jobs is good idea as suggested above!)

XP: The xp-table at the start of last wipe was a bit much (reminded me of mid-90s). Not sure how it was after 'the correction' since my chars were 1x anyways. If you're determined to increase the xp/level, another vote for a gradual xp-curve. Perhaps levels 1-10 last wipe's xp table, 11-20 slight increase, 21-26 bigger increase, 27-30 lay the hurt. (I do like the idea of some nasty xp requirements for the last few levels. Make level 30 mean something again!)

- Cosmo
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: gulca on October 22, 2013, 03:10:37 PM
About scout elimination, did you guys consider grouping them into a single class? I don't think current scout has anything related to old ranger except for the bow aspect?

Imagine this, the new scout have access to all 3 path. They have a path change skill with cool down (8 ticks) to switch in between the paths. Lower their effectiveness (so they are really good at a particular aspect and suck at others) to something like

sky: hard bash / evade & bow expert
ocean: no bash in water / defense expert
mtn: hard bash on land / damage expert

Rangers can come in as an extra class.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Zozen on October 22, 2013, 03:38:28 PM
About scout elimination, did you guys consider grouping them into a single class? I don't think current scout has anything related to old ranger except for the bow aspect?


I think the problem that scouts have always had is that they are nearly impossible to balance effectively. Minor changes can make them overpowered very easily because of scaling...especially once legend kicked in. In my opinion the instincts have never really fit into the mud history/theme. Don't get me wrong, I loved all 3 paths of the scout, but my first love was for Rangers and I hope that they will come back with some aspects of scouts (a few scout skills are good) but with their own unique flair that is more suited for the game.


Sean
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Alecto on October 22, 2013, 06:22:16 PM
When you think of rangers in Dragonlance you think automatically of Tanis - he wasn't embracing the instincts of other animals in the story, he was just a deeply troubled man who happened to be pretty good with a bow and a sword.  Obviously the ability to track people is hugely important in pk, and some scout skills (like the "scout" skill) could be easily imagined as port of Tanis' repertoire.  I don't think it needs a complete gutting, but I think the instinct idea, while neat, pulled away from the original ideas of the books. 

They should have limited tanking (via skills like parry/fence) and considerable damage, with no "combat" healing but SOME healing power outside of the fight (camp, bandage, perhaps making minor cure potions from local foliage).

Ranger was my favorite class in the 90s, and I immorted with a ranger.  I still fondly remember soloing Grap with 2 leather-handled foils as the highlight of my early mudding career...I will be glad to see them back.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: corey on October 22, 2013, 06:36:02 PM
When you think of rangers in Dragonlance you think automatically of Tanis - he wasn't embracing the instincts of other animals in the story, he was just a deeply troubled man who happened to be pretty good with a bow and a sword.  Obviously the ability to track people is hugely important in pk, and some scout skills (like the "scout" skill) could be easily imagined as port of Tanis' repertoire.  I don't think it needs a complete gutting, but I think the instinct idea, while neat, pulled away from the original ideas of the books. 

They should have limited tanking (via skills like parry/fence) and considerable damage, with no "combat" healing but SOME healing power outside of the fight (camp, bandage, perhaps making minor cure potions from local foliage).

Ranger was my favorite class in the 90s, and I immorted with a ranger.  I still fondly remember soloing Grap with 2 leather-handled foils as the highlight of my early mudding career...I will be glad to see them back.

I miss hide/sneak + bashing specifically.

I also miss old paladins a LOT.

Edit* actually while we're on the subject: what are the chances old paladin code is still around? Would there ever be the possibility of reinstating the class under another name (champion perhaps?)? I don't think it would be considered broken or out of place in today's game.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Gnua on October 22, 2013, 07:54:47 PM
I also miss old paladins a LOT.

Edit* actually while we're on the subject: what are the chances old paladin code is still around? Would there ever be the possibility of reinstating the class under another name (champion perhaps?)? I don't think it would be considered broken or out of place in today's game.

I'm guessing that the old paladin code must be around because there are still mobs out there which bash and lay.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: dp on October 23, 2013, 12:00:26 PM
Well, one way to reduce the number of posts by inactives is to delete their forum accounts.  Oh, wait....

I'd think imms should consider the proposed game mechanics and zone changes as something that just slows the player flow out.  I find it hard to believe that it'd remotivate any retired or infrequent players to really get back in it.  That being said, a new wipe might tempt me- the rush, the number of players, the opportunity to play with different people, lots of stuff I like- but it probably won't.

Honestly I quit playing because I just couldn't understand the logic behind some of the fundamentals.  I'll never see why it makes sense that if a player can get to a certain drop and beat a mob, that the player should be denied an item due to an arbitrary limit.  If "too many" of something unbalances the game, it seems like zero of them would balance just fine.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Bro on October 23, 2013, 12:38:00 PM
I think once the playerbase is consistently down in numbers to a certain point there is some risk of players leaving for good without either significant changes to the game to spice things up, or a pwipe. I haven't played this wipe other than logging in briefly to see if anyone I know is on to chat about life etc, but even those attempts have been futile, for whatever reasons. I'd likely start a character if it wiped, but there's just no reason to invest time into the game today for someone without a character. The numbers are just too low to consider it a viable use of my gaming tme.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Gramm on October 23, 2013, 01:10:24 PM
Should Give Rangers the ability to "Shoot North" and fire some arrows from a distance : p pew pew pew
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: endiel on October 23, 2013, 01:17:32 PM
So I went to wikipedia and could not find an entry for Arctic
Wikipedia has had Arctic entry, but consensus was to delete the page.

Wikipedia isn't really encyclopedia about everything, it has somewhat strict 'notability' requirement. So although Arctic is important for us, it is not much notable outside our circle. That is, hardly anyone will ever need to find out "what is Arctic Mud".

In order to get the arcticle back, would pretty much need printed media / book references, or a few established online parties writing about the mud. Folks didn't really find thus last time the entry was removed.

- Lasse
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: gulca on October 23, 2013, 04:25:37 PM
I'm also hoping there is a quick wipe that last like 2 - 3 months (with minimal changes). Then wipe it again when there are enough substance for code change.

A loaded player base always attract new comers. And with everyone being low level, it is the best time for them to find groups and enjoy the mud.

Everyone need to take an oath to vote once a day for the 1st wipe month.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Nostramazos on October 23, 2013, 05:59:44 PM

 Aristox and Hoss:

 Great news. Maza is supporting you all the way and I bet we will see some old Mazas return with these changes.

 XP Table: I was happy about the XP tables so ignore the barking of those players who want to spend the first 15 minutes of a wipe leveling to 30 and then the next 10 days playing non-stop to pop the coveted black adamantine inscribed spoon of doom and disaster. You have foiled their plans and they will get much needed sleep, thus won't be cranky for the rest of the wipe. Even more, it is not a secret that Maza opinion is the only one that matters anyway.

 Scouts: Keep the legendary monsters, they are fun to battle. Maybe make them aggro and let one loose in Solace sewers.

 Zones: Looking forward to the "refurnishing" of current zones. I will reiterate my opinion that in game feedback will increase excitement of exploration. Make "huh?" disappear or at least make it a definite indication that the item we try to look for does not exist in the room.

 PK: PK is an important theme which seemed to be missing from Hoss' preliminary statements on Arctic's major changes. Maza Nostra is concerned and would gladly wear T-Shirts reading "You don't need to pk me, I will die on my own" for the remainder of wipes before LUBE.

 LUBE: That name will definitely bring some Mazas back...hide your buttocks!

 Pwipe: Everyone. Stop asking for Aristox and Hoss to pwipe. I am still keeper of the red button and I will use it when I see fit. It is still very amusing to see Reed and others make one argument and then pretend that they are speaking for the whole Arctic community. So I will allow him to post some more until my laughing quota for October is fulfilled. Because in Maza we never laugh in vain.

 This is Nostramazos and I approve this message.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Jorquin on October 23, 2013, 07:41:24 PM
best post, give that man a cookie
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Alecto on October 23, 2013, 08:15:36 PM
I agree with Nostramazos...keep the legend scout mobs, if only so I can be ganked by the damn manticore again when I accidentally area it and get bounced out of the room.  Besides, think how frustrating it will be for people 10 years from now who don't understand why spirits show up for some random rank mobs in the game (see crytic owl quest).
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Bryton on October 23, 2013, 09:29:34 PM
20 people out of 100 are playing right now. I would say at least 80%   of the player base would like a pwipe. I see over 100 people on every pwipe and believe it or not more people equals more fun.

About the XP tables artistox/hoss Everyone but a hand full of people hate the XP tables. I killed over 40 people in August and the only complaints I got were " shit, now I have to go re XP for another 2-3 hours".   I liked that you made leveling harder but you made it  pretty ridiculous. I would like to hear why you guys are so against finding a median between the old and new XP tables.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Aristox on October 23, 2013, 09:52:39 PM
20 people out of 100 are playing right now. I would say at least 80%   of the player base would like a pwipe. I see over 100 people on every pwipe and believe it or not more people equals more fun.

That is all hyperbole.  You basically pulled those numbers out of your ass.  You could be completely right, but that would be pure luck. This is the precisely the kind of stuff I ignore when making decisions.

About the XP tables artistox/hoss Everyone but a hand full of people hate the XP tables. I killed over 40 people in August and the only complaints I got were " shit, now I have to go re XP for another 2-3 hours".   I liked that you made leveling harder but you made it  pretty ridiculous. I would like to hear why you guys are so against finding a median between the old and new XP tables.

More hyperbole here.

As for the question in your post:  I am not "so against" finding a compromise.  Hoss' post to start this thread said we will evaluate it.  If players are against something in large numbers, we usually are open to changing it.  There are a few exceptions (bots/multi-ing), but not many.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: eddiex on October 24, 2013, 12:59:21 AM
I think a pwipe would be nice in the near future.  I play a little now and can use my current characters to explore, i'd probably play more for the first 2 weeks to month then go back to my normal routine of periodic play.  Wipes always seem to bring back more people for a short duration.

XP Tables:  I've went back and forth about the xp tables.  I think as i sit here and ponder, one thing that most people don't present when they spew hate for the current xp tables is the way it affected early wipe.  As someone who started the wipe with no major clan affiliation, i found it much easier to find and form groups [although i did play a healing class (shaman)].   I think this increased the social interactions I engaged in.  This might be a result of the necessity of having at least 3 or 4 people to tag along to efficiently gain experience.  I personally ran into a number of old friends and also grouped with many people who i probably haven't interacted with in years.  The expeditious mentality usually seems to be adopted by those who seek out the highest level gear (these people invariably make up a significant portion of our small population) but that does not mean everyone feels the need to barrel through the leveling experience.  Consider this example: DKO on a group of 5 level 25's is much more exciting than a group of 5 level 30's.  It is only not exciting when we have our sights set on equipment of levels beyond this and we disregard the appreciation for the journey and only value the end game.

p.s. please laugh at my poor attempt at grammar and punctuation, it really isn't that important in the grand scheme of this forum... i think
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: corey on October 24, 2013, 06:14:26 AM
What are your thoughts on reverting the XP tables to what they were and making it so if you die to a mob you lose a full level no matter what, die to a player you lose 1/4 - 1/2 of a level no matter what?

This would #1 let people have their level 28-30s very fast like a normal wipe. This would keep people from zerging down the highest content on day 1 without severe risk of crippling their group.

It would make people think twice about heading towards content outside of their grasp.

The only problem I could see is later in the wipe where you run into the top, top tier mobs where death isn't a question of "if", but "when", and CRs become impossible. Solutions?
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: corey on October 24, 2013, 06:27:05 AM
What are your thoughts on reverting the XP tables to what they were and making it so if you die to a mob you lose a full level no matter what, die to a player you lose 1/4 - 1/2 of a level no matter what?

This would #1 let people have their level 28-30s very fast like a normal wipe. This would keep people from zerging down the highest content on day 1 without severe risk of crippling their group.

It would make people think twice about heading towards content outside of their grasp.

The only problem I could see is later in the wipe where you run into the top, top tier mobs where death isn't a question of "if", but "when", and CRs become impossible. Solutions?

For a solution : what if at rank 10 exp loss was passively reduced to half a level, 15 to a quarter level, and at 20 exp loss is back to normal amounts?
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Jorquin on October 24, 2013, 07:17:38 AM
given that on pwipe most people attain rank 15 at about level 26-28, those two changes would effectively cancel each other out.

edit: i guess if the tables were reverted, that would be a little inaccurate since people will be higher level. people are generally closing (if not hitting) rank 20 in 1-1.5 weeks. partially because of sweet ranks everywhere, partially because everyone is going full nerd-mode.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: corey on October 24, 2013, 07:22:01 AM
given that on pwipe most people attain rank 15 at about level 26-28, those two changes would effectively cancel each other out.

To be fair it's only the first group that kills those mobs, so the bonus would have to be nullified somehow. Maybe no rank exp is attainable in the first couple days of the wipe? I'm sure there's a solution to that.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Alecto on October 24, 2013, 04:08:40 PM
TBH, if you are working on popping books and gear at levels 20-25 you barely notice the xp...its when you are grinding to 25 so that you can START popping books and eq that it seems interminable.  You just have to realize that most characters at level 22 are now, thanks to improved skilling and early access to ranks, equivalent to the 25s of 2 or 3 wipes ago.

The takeaway is that if you are grouped and focused on the fun parts of the game the less fun parts start to disappear.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: octan on October 24, 2013, 05:28:48 PM
I'm sure this it NOT the fun part of this game.  (On both sides)

http://arctic.elay.org/index.php?option=viewlog&logid=3195 (http://arctic.elay.org/index.php?option=viewlog&logid=3195)

Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: btown on October 24, 2013, 06:14:37 PM
I am getting the popcorn.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Alecto on October 24, 2013, 07:07:07 PM
Wow...evil tim is so...evil.
Kinda kewl that he summoned them back and just took the coinage, tho.
I am assuming he was not deleted for that pk, there wasn't even time for someone to log a complaint...
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Bryton on October 25, 2013, 12:12:17 PM
aristox, sorry that I don't have exact numbers but I'm sure they're close..
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Thymorical on October 28, 2013, 04:03:30 PM
Perhaps this Will once again bring balance back to the mud.
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: sart on October 28, 2013, 07:58:00 PM
I vote you make Bryton a guardian so he has access to the numbers
Title: Re: October 20th, 2013 - Looking Forward
Post by: Alecto on October 28, 2013, 08:21:55 PM
help statistics september 2013