Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kir on August 07, 2013, 01:09:51 PM

Title: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Kir on August 07, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
So last night I was zoning with a group of players who I'd argue are widely recognized as the top zoners who are currently playing the game. This was a combined effort between the clans Dele and Myth. We were trying the last mob in a new zone, and it became apparent after 2-3 hours that after consecutive massrips, we were not going to win regardless. Now we were not the most powerful group the mud could assemble by any means, however we were pretty close to the most powerful group the mud will assemble for realistic purposes. Most of the group was comprised of legendary chars, ranked 30+, with healers, buff mains, bashers, solid dps etc. This made me get to thinking, because the other night I asked a respectable Dele member what kind of zoning they were doing, and he said, most stuff, except for the endgame hard stuff.

So basically here we are. 5 months into a wipe with some people\clans having played consistently through the wipe and they are still very incapable of doing the endgame content of arctic. In fact, they are actually much weaker than they were 2-3 months ago, when a few clans (maybe) had the capability to do some of the end game content.

So here are my points; people seem to think that because we all have legendary chars people are steamrolling and arctic is too easy. In reality, the end game of arctic (in my opinion, the fun stuff besides pvp) is so out of reach that most players lose interest or quit before ever attaining it.

I mean if a combination group of the two best clans currently playing can't access endgame fights, what is going on? Obviously legend chars are not overpowered, and obviously the endgame is not easy in any way shape or form.

And I know people have done the end game content, which is an accomplishment, and kudos to them; while others have done the endgame content using bots, which is as was just hashed out again, going to remain illegal.

So let me try to bring forth a discussion on whether or not endgame content should be made more attainable. Personally I'd like to see the smaller clans like Core\Apoc\Maza\Rgb have better accessibility to endgame content which in my opinion will increase competition for elite gear, making the game more fun etc etc.

If making the end game mobs more accessible means making the fights hit for 400 a round instead of 600, or whether it means removing obscure quest lines with no hints and absurd keywords from group content, I don't know, but I think these ideas should be explored. And this is not to say that I don't believe there should be hard stuff to figure out, which there should be. If you look at a player like Daniel who is great at figuring stuff out, he has a ton of gear that most people have never seen before, which is great and he deserves the elite shinies for figuring that stuff out. However that stuff should remain solo content, while the stuff that requires a 10man should be attainable by the Btowns, RichEs. Nostramazoses of arcticmud, so their perspective clans can enjoy the endgame as well, or at least attempt it.

Thanks for reading, and In my final point I would ask you to consider how many % of arctic players actually reach the end game content, who killed Sleet\Blazewight\Cyan this wipe before they quit. I'd wager maybe only certain members of Dele clan have done all 3, and that is a very small percentage of all the people who have played arctic this wipe.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Dyl on August 07, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Your first mistake is that dele is top dog.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: btown on August 07, 2013, 01:54:59 PM
Damn now I want to go kill Sleet.  Blazewight?  never heard of it.

Last wipe Apoc did Cyan probably 5-6 times.  We tried sleet a couple times and died "never take wasymo/ragequit/feiz to sleet"

I would like to see something along the lines of what you are talking about.

One problem I have had with elite zones or things of such is I have no elite friends who share clues,  I would like it better if there was better "starting point" as far as zones/quest goes.  Maybe a mob helping a little more..  hell I don't know. My name is btown and I am a newbie

P.S.  someone pls pm me where to find deep sea diving helmets
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Homard on August 07, 2013, 06:43:50 PM
I was a part of a group that did Cyan with Apoc last wipe and I'm a complete newbie who sucks.  It's possible if you managed to latch on to the right clan.  It was fun to see some "endgame" content for sure.  Maybe one of the high end clans can start taking newbie 30s on high level zone trips like tour guides.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Kir on August 07, 2013, 06:51:54 PM
I was a part of a group that did Cyan with Apoc last wipe and I'm a complete newbie who sucks.  It's possible if you managed to latch on to the right clan.  It was fun to see some "endgame" content for sure.  Maybe one of the high end clans can start taking newbie 30s on high level zone trips like tour guides.

Let me be straightforward and say that this wipe's cyan has been revamped, and is much different than last wipe's, so if you did it last wipe when it was much easier and you are saying it was fun, then I think you may be indirectly agreeing with what I am saying since we all know that lesser clans have not come near Cyan this wipe.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: reed23 on August 07, 2013, 09:02:10 PM
Moral of the story from Hommard and Btown - Botting makes the game more fun and end mobs that are more doable are also more fun.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Aemon on August 07, 2013, 10:02:43 PM
From my understanding, the only healer who has healed Kraken, Blazewight, and Cyan in the same wipe was a MINE cleric named Riomar.

Riomar ran the same scripts as Monika & Domahnugnuts did the wipe prior. Aemon and Rhonda ran off an enhanced version this wipe.

The actual player behind Riomar is a good player but not a scripter. He's certainly not someone you would ever entrust to main heal manually.

I don't know who else has healed Kraken and Blazewight, but I imagine that in most cases there was at least one fully scripted healer in the group.


Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: RichE on August 07, 2013, 11:50:53 PM
Okay i've been away for awhile but why is Kir mentioning me in his post? Am i the only one clueless as to who this guy is?
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: enochvey on August 08, 2013, 05:09:37 AM
As one of the people involved in that wipefest, I want to offer my perspective on that fight.

There are in game prep items and also ranks that can be bought which would have made that fight significantly easier, but still a massive pain. Without revealing details, there was a negative effect that was being spammed on many members of the group which could have been dealt with by those prep items/ranks.

I don't have a huge issue with prep items being required to do end game fights, but it appeared to me that even with the prep/rank I've mentioned, I wasn't bringing the necessary beef to fully tank that fight as a rank 25+ legend barb with perma steelskin.

Even if/when that spammy negative effect is dealt with, the mechanics of the fight itself made it very diffficult for me to actually bring my full skillset as a barbarian into the picture. I spent most of each attempt 1 or 2 rounds behind what I actually wanted to do because of the amazingly strict need to prioritize targetted rescues and maintain uptime on into the breech over everything else.

The problem is that in a fight with that kind of mele damage on the tank, it is critical for a barb to be able to maintain wild or ghostdance in addition to into the breech and targetted rescues. When these dances are maintained, the damage reduction in situations like that is HUGE, I would argue even essential.  I found it was very difficult to maintain either of these dances when every round required at least one rescue and someone other than a steelskinned tank could easily get one rounded or very close.

There are changes to that fight that if made,  would have made it much more reasonable for that specific group. Making one or both mobs bashable (they appeared not to be), even if still super hardbash comes to mind. Aside from changes to the fight itself, a group would need the prep I mentioned, but more importantly a different class composition than what we had available to us at the time, but that's a whole different post I don't want to make....   

In summary, yes there is some content out there that can steamroll a full group of legend chars without the right prep/rank and who may not have the right group comp available to them. The group composition requirements is what I consider to be a legitimate concern on this specific fight, but aside from some what I would call minor tweaking in that area I think that this fight is fine as it is.

As you said, this group was not the most powerful the mud could have presented, myself as tank included. I think that it's just fine that end game content should require that type of group or something very close, the only thing I'd like to see is greater flexibility in the type of group comps that could accomplish the same thing.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: sart on August 08, 2013, 09:54:16 AM
I solo that fight.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Jorquin on August 08, 2013, 10:12:00 AM
yeah okay i don't know who aemon is, but thats crap. i healed a lot of it on my proxy healer since thieves are garbage in big fights, and we had another big healer aswell who was present in all three - both characters were controlled by individuals playing those characters solely. those end game fights are no joke, theres no room for playing two characters there. one mistake = 10 deaths. our first time killing blazewight we had fourty deaths, with some people having deleveled.

in reality, the riomar bot was often kicked from groups because it'd spaz out and rock big fat fails due to unexpected mob specs and get us killed.

having never been at any of these fights i think most people posting here aren't really able to comment fairly on whether or not scripted healers are any good at bloodshoal end fights (which mostly, they're not for reasons i won't bother explaining). that said, blazewight is by far the single hardest fight in arctic and makes everything else look weak except maybe the new cyan, who probably looks like a normal person next to arnold schwarzenneger

edit: it dawn'ed on me that arnie is like 65, so that was probably a bad example but you get my point
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Kir on August 08, 2013, 02:18:35 PM
Ok, so putting the bot discussion aside for the time being, what do Aemons and Daniels actually think about the discussion I was attempting to bring to the table :P
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: btown on August 08, 2013, 02:30:08 PM
Nobody gives a shit what Aemon thinks.  Daniel has some credibility however
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Ericj on August 08, 2013, 02:32:50 PM
I have healed all those fights in the same wipe without any scripts of any sort.  We also have done all those fights without any "scripted" healer such as Riomar.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Ericj on August 08, 2013, 02:37:40 PM
@Kir,

In regards to what this topic is really about, I somewhat agree with you.  It is hard to find a balance.  If our clan was actually playing and we had a lot numbers, we could do most any high end zone in the game.  That goes along with your point because we had high numbers and some quality players *the level of quality is debatable and if you follow Al's off the wall theories :)*.

How do you create a zone that a high end clan won't just completely smash so lower level clans can do?  The end game is hard for a reason.  I'm curious to read more opinions on your post, great topic.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Jarrad on August 08, 2013, 05:12:18 PM
Basically I totally disagree with your assessment. Any competitive clan will ensure that each member has at least one legend char. If you want to be able to compete you need people who will play chars that the clan needs, not just what they think is "fun".

Any group with spelled legend shaman, druid, 2 healers, legend main (barb, dk, paladin) +5 legend damaging melee classes can do pretty much any fight. Yes there is some insane specs around and some serious direct damage mobs but that is why healing cloud/regeneration/amelioration blah blah blah was brought in.

Yes you can get rolled in the mud. If you couldn't die sometimes, where is the element of challenge? Don't give up the first time you mass die, analyse the fight and tweak your group accordingly.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Kir on August 08, 2013, 05:37:36 PM
Basically I totally disagree with your assessment. Any competitive clan will ensure that each member has at least one legend char. If you want to be able to compete you need people who will play chars that the clan needs, not just what they think is "fun".

Any group with spelled legend shaman, druid, 2 healers, legend main (barb, dk, paladin) +5 legend damaging melee classes can do pretty much any fight. Yes there is some insane specs around and some serious direct damage mobs but that is why healing cloud/regeneration/amelioration blah blah blah was brought in.

Yes you can get rolled in the mud. If you couldn't die sometimes, where is the element of challenge? Don't give up the first time you mass die, analyse the fight and tweak your group accordingly.

Ok Jarrad, then please tell me your reasoning for why the endgame content is not being done at all, and was hardly done earlier in the wipe if I am mistaken in my assessment. I am not trying to flame, I am actually really curious and would like to find the root of the problem to be figured out so hopefully something could be done about it.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Brafu on August 08, 2013, 06:34:04 PM
Legendary did break the game, and all you need to do is take a group of legendary into any pre-legendary zone that would have demanded at-least 8+ spelled/stacked chars and you'll realize that the same thing can be done with far, far less when legendary is used. So, legendary did break the game, in fact it pretty much smashed virtually every single zone. But there have been revamps and new zones added since legendary was added, and those changes took legendary into account (thus why things at the very end are even harder now).

But, even with the changes it's still very possible for any clan to do the end zones/fights, provided they have the drive and dedication and are able to build up the strength in the first place (ie. ranks/spells/eq). They also need knowledge, and I would argue that knowledge is the single most important factor since it's also the hardest one to achieve (unless you get it handed to you).

But, if you want the "root cause" then I see it as being fairly simple, and obvious. It takes a LOT of work, time, and dedication to build up the strength/knowledge/experience it takes to do the hardest area's of this mud, so you won't be seeing a group that got thrown together from whoever was still around having much of a chance, especially if there's a distinct lack of knowledge about the specific zone/fight. It takes an entire clan working together for weeks, or month's, to be able to do certain fights and zones, so without some actual direction and intent on being able to do the best of the best in terms of zones/fights... *shrugs*
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Keith on August 08, 2013, 08:36:30 PM
Legendary did make the game, at least most zones, much easier.  However, there are some zones mentioned Kir that require a full group of legendaries to have a decent shot at winning.  Not just legendaries, but stacked to the teeth legendaries.  I think that with the current playerbase, keeping legendary in place in order to be able to do zones on less numbers is crucial.  On that note, I'm not sure of the point of the push of some people to remove legendary: without legendaries or bots, the hardest zone that could be done on most hours of the day is... Sanction?  Last Gaard?  Forgotten Temple?  I just don't see that many 10 mans running around...
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Aemon on August 08, 2013, 09:26:52 PM
I guess my understanding was incorrect.

Thanks for the corrections Daniel & Eric.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Jorquin on August 08, 2013, 10:43:15 PM
i previously said that im not going to discuss hard fight mechanics, but after some thought its actually an issue worth raising for a entirely seperate reason

some fights are going to have to be changed significantly if the maximum group size is reduced (im thinking of one in particular) which has specs that are distributed amongst all the people in the room. if the max group size is reduced, people would be taking more specs - some of which lag for a couple rounds, which if left as is and the max group was reduced to say 7, its quite conceivable your healers would just never be able to move and you'd all die.

that aside, i do agree there are certain things in arctic that are extremely difficult -but i actually like that. i think for the most part, the game is too easy now.

historically there has always been extremely difficult stuff that wasn't available to your casual players. the days of prepping for 6-8 hours for hard fights are surely gone, but i still think there should be some content that's extremely difficult. i'm sure at one point or another people posting on here (mostly) have been in the situation where you're legendary, probably rank 25-26, and nearly max eq. at that point, all zones are a face-roll. you need hard fights (really, really hard ones) to keep you interested. in previous wipes, solving and dying to these extremely difficult things was the only thing keeping us interested, simply put - it becomes the only reason left to play....    other than just going randoming which i think just pushes people away, which is bad.

Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Kir on August 09, 2013, 10:03:26 AM
i previously said that im not going to discuss hard fight mechanics, but after some thought its actually an issue worth raising for a entirely seperate reason

some fights are going to have to be changed significantly if the maximum group size is reduced (im thinking of one in particular) which has specs that are distributed amongst all the people in the room. if the max group size is reduced, people would be taking more specs - some of which lag for a couple rounds, which if left as is and the max group was reduced to say 7, its quite conceivable your healers would just never be able to move and you'd all die.

that aside, i do agree there are certain things in arctic that are extremely difficult -but i actually like that. i think for the most part, the game is too easy now.

historically there has always been extremely difficult stuff that wasn't available to your casual players. the days of prepping for 6-8 hours for hard fights are surely gone, but i still think there should be some content that's extremely difficult. i'm sure at one point or another people posting on here (mostly) have been in the situation where you're legendary, probably rank 25-26, and nearly max eq. at that point, all zones are a face-roll. you need hard fights (really, really hard ones) to keep you interested. in previous wipes, solving and dying to these extremely difficult things was the only thing keeping us interested, simply put - it becomes the only reason left to play....    other than just going randoming which i think just pushes people away, which is bad.

I am going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't remember there historically being extremely difficult stuff. I remember by this time in a wipe, many clans were running cyan (historically the hardest endgame fight), while the top clans could spam it. At the moment, the top clans can't even do the endgame stuff, and the sub-clans haven't come close to it.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: ralfiepoo on August 09, 2013, 01:25:01 PM
Out of curiosity, how many killed cyan this wipe and how much of shoal was done?
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: reed23 on August 09, 2013, 09:34:19 PM
SOB massripped to Cyan 2 times, and 10 minutes after one of the massrips took down a 16 man wild group.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Jorquin on August 10, 2013, 11:00:05 AM
cyan died to some euros, not sure how much of blood shoal was done. to my knowledge, clan quest wasn't done either.


edited: frankly this isn't due to the strength or skill of players. dont get me wrong, better players helps. but generally the difference between the people who do the hardest stuff and those who don't is a willingness to accept the real possibility of a no-cr mass rip, which many people are just too attached to their current shinies to gamble it for greater shinies. this and a lack of time also contributes.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Zozen on August 10, 2013, 11:27:52 AM
Daniel hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: ralfiepoo on August 10, 2013, 02:00:40 PM
cyan died to some euros, not sure how much of blood shoal was done. to my knowledge, clan quest wasn't done either.


edited: frankly this isn't due to the strength or skill of players. dont get me wrong, better players helps. but generally the difference between the people who do the hardest stuff and those who don't is a willingness to accept the real possibility of a no-cr mass rip, which many people are just too attached to their current shinies to gamble it for greater shinies. this and a lack of time also contributes.

I think it's pretty accurate what you wrote. When we(BiA) did cyan, it was all old players who knew the terms, and was able to keep it cool due to experience imo. We didn't get to do the last fight in shoal though, but I wondered if anyone had, since it's such a fun place and it'd be sad if noone got to see it. I love this mud, and I love the challenges in the "end" zones.

I kind of want to give everyone who plays this exceptional game a shoutout, because of all the fun and rage it has brought me hehe. Especially Aristox and Hoss, it's an ungrateful thing mostly I am sure, but I for one really appreciate how the game is being run(Morgion back in the days was too dominant imo, which I'm sure many experienced first hand). But I think you two are doing it great, as much as everyone doesn't always agree on decisions, I think most would concur.

Thank you everyone I've played with and against in the past 16 years, by far too many to mention you all. I will more or less retire from now on, or at least till my life can find the time I need to invest when I play this game. I hope the game will still exist by then, because no other game has ever come close to being Arctic for me.

All my best to all of you

Ralf aka Pinjalas/Tvebak/Kulde/Tylle/Tylk/Drune and some other druids over the years that I forgot.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Al on August 14, 2013, 08:21:05 AM
I haven't played Arctic in a couple of months since getting addicted to LoL (thanks Daniel - and then you move your character to a different server!), but a clan with a 10 man of legendary characters can/should be able to kill every mob in the game. It may be challenging and you'll have to employ good tactics, but eff it, everyone knows that if you know the zone/fight/strats, you can complete the challenge.

Maybe I'll have to log on one of these days to try out the new Soth.
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Jorquin on August 14, 2013, 01:37:16 PM
maleki stop potating on me or you'll have to fight me irl
Title: Re: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful
Post by: Alecto on August 18, 2013, 02:12:51 AM
I think it is significant to note that there was pretty much a 8-10 man of legends on for almost last 36 hours (with occasional gaps where people napped) and many of the hardest parts of the game were attempted, mass-ripped, won, or stared at from a safe distance and decided today wasn't the day.  If anyone can keep a group of 6 core players on for 5 hours straight there really is no limit to what they can accomplish on this game.  But that kind of dedication (and willingness to die repeatedly while learning) is hard with an aging playerbase that has increasing "real life" responsibilities.

That said, I think the game is as it should be - there should be fights that even a 10 man of stacked rank 30+ legend characters will probably lose.