Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 02:24:43 PM

Title: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 02:24:43 PM
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: sart on July 25, 2013, 03:27:35 PM
Well written Hoss, I felt your surrender to this issue.  I could see your arms thrown up in the air.. and hear your audible exhale as you fell back into your easy chair.

Either allow it, and do not police ips.. thus taking the advantage away from the cheaters.

or

Mirror the server and make the second no_pk... and policed.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 03:35:45 PM
I think that splitting the game would completely destroy the sandbox that we all know and love. One of the best parts of Arctic is that the players have a huge part in the dynamics of the game and branching into carebear vs hard-core pk just doesn't sit well.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Dyl on July 25, 2013, 03:38:39 PM
Adding another server is just going to cut the pbase in half.  Don't do that.

I don't like bots because of the advantage that I cannot take.  I play exclusively at work and on an android device.  At work I am often minimizing one screen when coworkers or bosses come in.  Kir suggests that botting at work is great because then Ill have triggers to continue playing, but thats not how I play.  If I were to bot I would want multiple client windows open at the same time taking up both of my desktop screens.  Wheres the database and unix connections?  They are minimized.  But, thats not the case.  In a 10v10 with bots allowed I might be able to lend a hand.. but in any other circumstance because I can't have 4+ other windows open I will be at a serious disadvantage making my method of play obsolete.

So go ahead and add bots... what started as 2 humans and 2 connections will become 1 human and 4 its not viable for me to play with one screen - be it a small jmc client on my desktop or the only connection I have at home - my phone.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 03:40:34 PM
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 25, 2013, 03:50:49 PM
1.And make all eq unlimited
2.Spellbooks load 100%
3.Increase hpts by 50%

Lets just make it real easy

What would stop people from still botting 3-10 chars from proxy ip's?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 04:03:00 PM
Do this, do that posts aren't really working for me. I think we need to still address the root cause before we evaluate any system. What I am eluding to, is that there isn't a systematic or design change we can make that can work while also keeping that selfish win at all costs mentality. Fixing one, will surely fix the other.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 25, 2013, 04:30:56 PM
I know that we won't entertain ideas or systems that would allow some people an unfair advantage to the game. It just isn't worth it and for every mousetrap we try to build there will be a better bot so following that system is wasteful energy.

If I understand correctly:
1. "we won't entertain ideas or systems that would allow some people an unfair advantage to the game" means that the status quo of having the botters having an unfair advantage over regular folks needs to go.
2. "for every moustrap we try to build there will be a better bot" means that it just isnt feasible to prevent the botters from doing their thing.

Does this mean that you are seriously considering giving regular law-abiding citizens of Krynn some sort of access to legalized multi-play to level the playing field?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gramm on July 25, 2013, 04:43:16 PM
The problem here is people using their abilities for evil i think : p If people wanted to bot a healer so that their clan could actually run something other than low level zones when only like 2 or 3 people were on thats one thing, instead i see people attaching legendary bashers to legendary mages  and reigning hell upon the mud. Personally i can continue to go without seeing that. Using bots for pk is not cool. And especially using them to drop onto mid level players because you are done learning and bored with zoning is just pathetic. This was proven and has been time and time again. Botting in pk is why id hope botting doesnt go unpunished. I cant be the only one that witnessed the rape of our dear mud to it this wipe at least... Those that do use these brutal tactics have proven that it WILL absolutely be abused and a problem for a good portion of our playerbase. I bet if you posted a vote on how many people want to see a repeat of the poof, rape, loot and drop all gear onto an unknown level 2 or random mob, hide for 15, rent technique. There would be 4 votes for and 50 votes against.
Whatever chance you might have had i pray has been shot because of your inability to share the little sandbox pure pk scumms.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 04:44:39 PM
Hoss, I think this "Win at all cost attitude" you speak of is a bit overhyped. Two wipes ago, when RANK (now dele clan) was dominating the mud, they gave peace to any clan that asked for it. Even when they were stomping us (RISE), they felt bad and offered peace. We turned it down because its more fun to war, but nevertheless there was no "win at all cost attitudes". As I have previously stated as well, when I was leading RISE and SOB, there was never any instance that we had the "win at all cost" and "kill them into quitting" attitudes. We have never withheld peace from a clan that asked for it. If a clan asked us for a truce to start a wipe, or peace from war, we obliged. RISE\SOB have warred both Rank\Dele and wild clans, and even during the wars we have friends that are buddies and even irl friends with members of the opposing clans. There are several people who even continually clan hope from Dele to SOB or SOB to Dele just depending on who they feel like playing with. Heck, most of the current Dele clan play league of legends with SOB members and BSP members and there is never a problem. The inter-player douchebaggery is highly overrated and I'd say only about 1-2% of the arctic population actually falls into that category. The only people who quit because of one PK, usually quit because they were embarrassed, or because they value their eq way too much, not because of player attitudes. Heck when I was a noob, I wouldn't make level 12 in a week because I'd get pked 5 times a day in solace sewers.. the old days were much, much worse.

@Gramm while I agree with you that getting rape trained by bots is not cool, its also not police-able. I mean people were getting deleted from the beginning of the wipe, yet people still botted anyway. And if you get pked by a group of bots, guess what, there's no re-imbursement policy so it doesn't matter if they get caught eventually, you still died and lost everything anyway. Now of course if you had a healer bot to heal you when that happened, you probably would have survived, or at least had a chance being on a more leveled playing field.

I feel we definitely need a compromise of some sort, a halfway that will please the players who love multi-play and the players who are afraid of losing the advantage. Something needs to be done here because like I have said, the playerbase is dwindling way too much. And please do not tell me its because of being pked. The playerbase dropped significantly at the beginning of the wipe when people were deleted for botting and the wars hadn't even started yet.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: gulca on July 25, 2013, 04:56:19 PM
Hoss, I think this "Win at all cost attitude" you speak of his a bit overhyped. Two wipes ago, when RANK (now dele clan) was dominating the mud, they gave peace to any clan that asked for it. Even when they were stomping us (RISE), they felt bad and offered peace. We turned it down because its more fun to war, but nevertheless there was no "win at all cost attitudes". As I have previously stated as well, when I was leading RISE and SOB, there was never any instance that we had the "win at all cost" and "kill them into quitting" attitudes. We have never withheld peace from a clan that asked for it. If a clan asked us for a truce to start a wipe, or peace from war, we obliged. RISE\SOB have warred both Rank\Dele and wild clans, and even during the wars we have friends that are buddies and even irl friends with members of the opposing clans. There are several people who even continually clan hope from Dele to SOB or SOB to Dele just depending on who they feel like playing with. Heck, most of the current Dele clan play league of legends with SOB members and BSP members and there is never a problem. The inter-player douchebaggery is highly overrated and I'd say only about 1-2% of the arctic population actually falls into that category. The only people who quit because of one PK, usually quit because they were embarrassed, or because they value their eq way too much, not because of player attitudes. Heck when I was a noob, I wouldn't make level 12 in a week because I'd get pked 5 times a day in solace sewers.. the old days were much, much worse.

@Kir

How did it feel when your whole clan got pzap?

How did you think the neutrals/carebears feel when they got pk'ed by legend chars?

You might argue it is not the same, in your case you had no power to fight back and in their case, it's grow up and be better and fight back.

Now, how often does Hoss come into the game and pzap you? How often did those neutrals get pk'ed?

The truth is, the feeling is the same. We all felt robbed and ended up with "quit" as the solution.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 04:58:22 PM
@Kir: Good points, I am just going off what I have seen the last few wipes. That being a huge arms race right when we open from wipe which builds into a few fights until one side comes out ahead on gear, then the other side using griefing tactics to keep the other side from picking themselves up by the bootstraps and getting back into the fray.

To the second point (i.e. leveling the playing field): To what ends? Where does it stop? We allow everyone to have a multi and you run 4 characters, so the next guy runs 4 and then Reed runs 6...the escalation path and trajectory just don't seem a direction we should go.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gramm on July 25, 2013, 04:58:41 PM
Right there that just shows you the difference in mentality even, not everyone on this mud just wants to pk the shit out of everyone else Kir... this wipe RGB/SOB combo was the golden example of why pk botting is the worst thing you could give arctic. We in myth asked sob to  take a step back and look at what they were doing... their response was give him a bunch of dams from the fight he lost them in or continue dying. I actually offered my whole set in response to the issue, which was a pretty nice set at the time and still that "nice guy" swibelgluck would have rather had my whole clan sit in the inn or not play than to just get past it and allow a good amount of players to come onto the mud. He is not overstating anything.. there is always someone that will abuse the power even if it isnt you or I. If botting is allowed it will be open season for exactly those kinds of "delightful people"  that have no desire to do arctic any true form of good. If your botting and not being a complete "hooti-nanne" than perhaps you might not be such an easy target to crucify. But most of the ones i see getting zapped have earned it.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 05:06:29 PM
@gramm: Let's keep the thread clear of insults and personal attacks.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gramm on July 25, 2013, 05:08:08 PM
Sorry, innsitting to bots for a good portion of the wipe has probably clouded my judgement on appropriate terms to call them. I will behave. My apologies. haha edited all insults didnt even know i could : )
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: reed23 on July 25, 2013, 05:10:22 PM
I think people need to read this thread, and stop focusing on bitching and crying about the past and post something worth while.

My vote is allowing 2 chars per IP address.  Now here is the real questions to all you studly botters out there.  I have never played more than 2 chars at one time, and they were always from separate laptops.  I manually typed each character with a few simple aliases.  That was kind of irrelevant, however, the question is, BOTTERS, are you going to be satisfied by playing only 2 characters, or are you still going to want 4-5-6 chars?  I cannot answer that question, because i have not gotten to that point.  My personal opinion, botters would tend to stay with the 2 chars for a while.  If you have a small friend group of 3-4 guys, that means you can have a 6-8 man in no time.  If you have a clan of 5-7 active players, you should have no problem forming elite zoning groups at almost all times.  I would also agree with Kir and like to see the group limit changed to 12 if we go the direction i am proposing above.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: reed23 on July 25, 2013, 06:15:14 PM
Also, from the non-botter party - I have heard 1 reason from Dyl that semi-made sense regarding why you don't want botting.  He said that his current playing setup wouldn't allow him to bot effectively, and therefore, it would put him at a disadvantage.  The rest of your from non-botter party, why don't you want the Imms to allow 2 chars per IP address?  What are your reasons for not wanting it?  If everyone was able to control 2 chars, everyone would be on the same playing field.  I want to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Anaya on July 25, 2013, 06:26:40 PM
Honestly Reed i have been playing this game for almost 20 years.  The only time i have played multiple characters is Chaos day when it was allowed.  With the current state of the game i would have no issue being able to play my Paladin and Healer at the same time so i could do small zones affectively.  My only issue is it is against the rules in the current state of the game.  When CORE was a strong group mudding all the time we could have 8-10 man strong groups with no botting.  However most of that group has quit mudding mostly for real life reasons including myself.  If they allow 2 chars per IP what stops it from being 4-6 would be this issue i would have then.  I myself have no desire to make up the aliases/triggers to control that many characters.  I personally have enjoyed the interaction with people from across the globe on this game and meeting new people.  To me the issue is growing the player base with actual players not growing the player base with bots.  That is all i have to say on the matter.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Anaya on July 25, 2013, 06:30:01 PM
I have no issue with people being able to play 2 chars if it is made legal in the game.  Short version.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Willoe on July 25, 2013, 06:43:22 PM
I personally tend to agree that having the option to being able to play one extra character will be great. There will be a lot of people(myself included) that will take advantage of this. This will make zoning easier as a result more people will likely play(and perhaps the need for multiple characters will be less).

As far as "what's to stop people from doing more"...nothing. They are already doing it. All this would be doing is leveling the playing field for those that aren't doing it right now because of this rules. Those that want to break the rules have been for years so it changes nothing other then giving those that do not want to be punished the ability to actually compete.

Short version - Yes to being able to play 2 characters from a single IP.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 07:10:55 PM
Is it more of a "I need more characters, so I can go zone by myself", or is it "I want to multi"?

I see those as distinctly separate issues, the first we could solve with game changes, the second not so much. I also wanted to applaud those of you that have publicly admitted that you bot. We all know it happens and I really do think we won't make much progress until we can shed any pretence and have an honest conversation.

I will also lift the 'no flames' rule as long as it is focused at Willoe.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Willoe on July 25, 2013, 07:29:23 PM
For me it's more along the lines of not always having enough people to zone so having another character or two(depending on how many people are playing an extra character). Suddenly the "we don't have a main tank on, or we don't have enough heals" doesn't become an issue to zone. It let's people play the class they actually want to play instead of being forced to heal or tank. I don't know how many times this wipe I've heard John Douglas complain saying "wtf nobody on again" then log off. Or I myself log on after a long day of work and we only have the same 3-4 people on and are forced to run some boring crap as opposed to being able to run in to Blood Shaol or check out Sanjuro's new death trap. It provides a lot more flexibility for the declining playerbase. I think we'll find that once we do this, there will be a LOT more zoning, more competition, and more fun. This is what the game is about and we'll likely see some returning players thus the actual need for "secondary" characters will be reduced.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 07:53:47 PM
I agree 100% with Ilya. More characters = more people having the power to do stuff = more competition = more fights = fun.

Hoss, I completely agree with you questioning "how much is enough", and that's why I say make a game rule\policy that no more than one group of 10 per one side in a pk battle. So if Maza ambushes Dele, they can only bring 10 to battle, and Dele can only have 10 in zone so its not a problem. Its the best way to avoid some guy making 40 chars and abusing.

Gramm; as others have stated, this thread is not designed as a place to release your rage at others for botting. The actual entire point of this is to put people who follow the rules on an even playing field with the people who are going to bot regardless, and allow the people that only enjoy the game from a multi-play\botting perspective who don't pk\grief to relax and enjoy the game without constantly having to worry about being deleted.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gramm on July 25, 2013, 08:00:49 PM
Only one way to prove or disprove anything is to open that door. Perhaps more will return and more will leave you never know. I can only hope you lads do the right thing. If it meant a higher playerbase that would awesome, if it meant easier scores for highly knowledgable players to abuse their abilities, not awesome.  There is of course going to be some pros and cons to what your discussing. Im not trying to cry you a stream of tears here. Simply stating that SOME well known players are going to make hell given this right.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gramm on July 25, 2013, 08:04:05 PM
How about allowing it and forbidding bots in pk : p If there was anyway to police that id be all for letting the scripting geniouses have their fun loading their shinies and learning their zones.  That would remove any advantage some of the people that have countless hours to program pk bot assistants have vs the rest of the mud that have half real lives too : p
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Chisul on July 25, 2013, 08:09:55 PM
Great thread and excellent dialog. Here are my thoughts.

Sounds like this is an issue less about botting and more about "anti-fun" actions of a few players. I think just about every player would be ok with bots...provided they were not used in a way that excessively ruins the game for others.

This reminds me of some advice I was given by someone I really appreciate. "Don't be that guy."

We have all known someone...or at times been...THAT guy. The guy that can't take a hint, the guy that over stays his welcome, that always orders the most expensive item on the menu EVERY time someone else is buying, the guy that crosses the line.

What we are dealing with is a small group of players, who are THAT guy.

Fortunately, most reasonable people are willing to listen and change behavior if someone can point out when the line has been crossed. "Hey, that was a pretty crappy thing you just did. We (meaning you) should probably fix it."

Unfortunately, we as players have not done a very good job of addressing our own issues. I'm just a guilty as the next person for not speaking up when I KNOW another player is being THAT guy. Sure, some of this crappy "win by ruin" attitude will exist at some level or another, but we need to change the way we handle it.

I'm calling out the clan leaders in particular here. You are quick to recruit one of these highly explosive players when the war is close and battles could go one way or another pretty easily. But once you have unleashed the hounds, you do very little to reign them back in before they become THAT guy.

I don't often see leaders take the high road and reprimand someone for crossing the line. And we ALL know when that line has been crossed. We aren't 15 year old kids mudding from the high school computer lab anymore. I guess what I'm trying to say is, have some common decency. Show a little respect among enemies, and for heavens sake DO something about problem players in your clan before Hoss or anyone else has to start deleting everyone.

Apart from that, I think a 5 level spread for PK would be a good idea. You cannot attack or be attacked by someone unless you are within 5 levels of each other.

Also, adding a "player problem" report function just like the typo, idea, and bug function would be good. Except rather than going to an immort, the problem gets sent to the clan leader. I would hope clan leaders would want to know when their members are being THAT guy.

Matt
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 25, 2013, 08:16:01 PM
playing more than one character by hand is quite difficult, especially in crisis situations.

i've always been pro playing more than one character when its human controlled. i've never scripted or "botted" as such, i don't use triggers to control either characters actions.  i guess i'm just multi-ing basically. i've been flamed for it and labelled a cheater, and that's fine. have you ever actually tried to play multiple characters by hand in a difficult fight or when you get ambushed? i can tell you, its no easy feat and neither character will be nearly as efficient as when a human is controlling one sole character. i literally have to move my mouse, click the other window, type some shit, move it back to the other window, do another thing, etc etc.

the point im trying to make is that i think that autobot style scripted things that control themselves are inherently bad. in a way i think allowing that sort of "botting" (which i think is the definition of a bot, something which controls itself) would basically follow the plot of terminator where the machines rise up against their creators and take over the world or some shit. that said, if you have the skill to control two characters (or three if you're some sort of jedi) then i don't see an issue personally. they'll never be as good as a human, and everyone i know would gladly have a human playing one character over their multi.   i actually get a headache from playing two characters for long periods because it's mentally taxing - especially when leading.

i posted this in another thread by accident, so i re-posted it here.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Anaya on July 25, 2013, 08:43:02 PM
Daniel have you heard of Alt-tab?   :)  And playing 2 chars without scripts i think would be hard depending on class.  Paladin and Healer not so bad.  Paladin guards the healer and you change screens to heal or buff up Paladin.  I have aliases set up for healing but still have to type something.  As i said in previous post i will never spend the time to script stuff to run characters so if i have 2 on at the same time i am Alt-tabbing between screens and typing.

Mike
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 25, 2013, 08:46:18 PM
yeah but i usually have other windows open, so its always been the click method for me.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: reed23 on July 25, 2013, 08:50:24 PM
The reason i played 2 characters for the last 8 years was for a few reasons.  When clan people were not on, i could take my barbarian and healer and go have fun.  I was able to learn CT, DKO, FT, Quali, Storms, etc. mid level zones with merely 2 players.  Whenever anyone else in the clan wanted to join, that was great with me.  It also added some excitement to the game.  Playing a healer in and of itself is sometimes boring, but when you add another char to control and learn, that was really fun for me.  All in all, it made the game playable from a smaller standpoint for me.

@Daniel - I also played my 2 characters via control, not scripts.  I play from a mac, and the client i use doesn't even save aliases or actions when i leave the game.  That was challenging to learn, but makes the game very fun.  I am not so sure though that disallowing actions and scripts would be policable.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: reed23 on July 25, 2013, 08:52:45 PM
Hoss - I didnt answer your question.  My answer is - I play 2 characters because i dont have 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 2 hours to sit around and wait for a group to form.  When i log, i want to be playable immediately.  If that is running a 2 man zone with my 2 guys, then that is it.  If there are a couple clannies on, we can run a 5 man zone.  I always played a main and a healer so other people could fill in the cracks and we could get going immediately.  I guess time is my concern.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: fulloflife on July 25, 2013, 08:54:13 PM
It's obvious that the botters enjoy it.

If you provided the technical know how to the people who don't currently bot, i bet they love it too.

Therefore if you want to make people happy, just allow everyone to bot.

Arctic should take a chance and experiment with it- look at how many times the PK system has changed- if you don't like it, then change it back.

What is so bad about taking a wipe to test out a new policy?

It's not like we weren't guinea pigs before- just go back to when robed mages were introduced and they were all super OP,especially nightmare which took 3 wipes to tone down.

Why not give it a chance? What's the big harm- do you actually have something to lose?

For the record, I bot because I don't have time to waste looking for a group. You think anyone would buy a game if it took half a hour to load on their PC?



Title: Root Cause Analysis -something I learned in school i think
Post by: snax on July 25, 2013, 09:27:08 PM
So, here goes.  Hoss you are looking for thoughts on botting, and to do that I'm going to put aside my preconceived notions and preferences and tack out a quick RCA, other people can throw their thoughts into it.

A foreword, root cause analysis is a system of getting to the "root" of the system problem, and takes blame out of the person and instead looks at how the system fails.  An employer can use this method in employee discipline, wherein the employee makes a mistake and every possible effort is expended to fix the system, not the person (caveat:  you still fire people who are recklessly negligent and high, and skip the process in instances like that)

So.  Here we have it:

People-------------------|---------------------Materials
Mortals                       |                   Computers
 .Carebear                  |                   Smartphones
 .Pk                             |                   Proxies/VPN
 .Zoner                        |                  Multiple Client Connection
   .Casual                    |                  Scripting
   .Hardcore                 |
Immortals                   |
  .High Access             |
  .Low Access              |
      .Casual                 |
      .Hardcore              |
                                   |
Environment-----------------------Method
 .online game              |                rule enforcement
 .fantasy                     |                consistency
 .pk allowed                |                equality/fairness
                                   |
Measurements-----------------------
. pklog / frequency     |
. IP connections          |
. Total connections      |
. time online                |
. forum activity            |
                                   |
                                   V
               Problem = Botting

sorry, my ascii art is going downhill these days.


Title: Re: RCA thoughts
Post by: snax on July 25, 2013, 09:30:46 PM
So, really need to decide instead to build a better mouse trap, need to decide if the mouse is around.  Yes people are botting.  Yes it is against the rules.  No it is not possible to justly enforce botting rules.  So, I think redefining the problem and replacing the no botting rule with don't be an arsehole or you will be deleted.  I don't think i've seen that rule listed, but I'm sure over the years I've been an arsehole enough to get deleted a few times.

Now, instead of focusing on botting and pkill - you can instead focus on balancing out materials : rented equipment / equipment decay, and also pk frequency : don't be a trash arse who constantly takes out anyone and everyone whether or not your'e botting.

dunno, but maybe it's worth the spit it's written with.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: eddiex on July 25, 2013, 09:49:17 PM
I think there is a huge disadvantage to playing the game by the rules in arctic's current system.  Those who are multiing/botting currently have and will continue to do so, putting all of those who play by the rules at a severe disadvantage.  The idea that those people who know how to run a proxy server should be able to play multiple characters does nothing to address balancing the game for the entire arcticmud population.

Consider that in arctic's current state, people are illegally using bots/multis to both pk and zone.  Allowing the entire population to use two chars from the same IP is a step toward leveling the playing field.

When i have Multiplayed in the past, it is an entirely different experience of mudding and enjoyable in its own right.  For me, It isn't just about increasing zoning power, it is the dynamic of being able to play as 2 chars at once.  I don't share the same sentiment as some other multiers that I can never go back to playing just one char.  I have done that throughout the entirety of this wipe, I still enjoy the game, but it disgusts me that people are running around multiplaying and I cannot because i don't have proxy knowledge (something that isn't even directly related to the gameplay).
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: eddiex on July 25, 2013, 09:58:05 PM
I think Snax put it best,  since policing botting is not an effective solution, Allow it and enstate don't be an Arse policy.  Can even create a forum section where you can post up people/chars who are arctic Public Enemies and if enough people chime in saying yes this person is being a bastard.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Super Tacoman on July 25, 2013, 10:26:22 PM
how about drastically reducing group size along with allowing bots?  do you really need more than 6 anymore in this age of legendaries?

then you wont have to worry about someone botting a 10 man and rolling over everyone.  getting attacked by 6 is much more managable. 
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: eddiex on July 25, 2013, 11:13:16 PM
One more addition.  If botting/multiing is legalized.  I think limiting the #of specified classes in a group should be considered.  I remember on a chaos day having like 5 stunning tenting prisming botting mages.  The simplest script was able to let me destroy plenty of the 10 mans and ended up getting me deleted.  A common argument that pro-botting is saying that in pk it's not an issue because its difficult to orchestrate an assault.  Most of the times we have seen classes be called OP has been in situations where a single class is multiplied and used.
Ex: Hella tornado druids <finns>, 4 or 5 nightmaring blackrobes <apocs>, 3 or 4 animating legendary clerics <sobs>, bugged angering mtn scouts, could u imagine 4 or 5 legendary shamans with 20 - 25 spirits?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 25, 2013, 11:53:16 PM
Hi, I'm a botter.

The one thing that makes this game differentiated from any other offering out there is that it's completely scriptable. I don't know why we would want to remove this point of distinguishment. There are certainly better PvE games and better PvP games than Arctic. But I know of no other game where you can have fun playing and as well have fun scripting, it challenges you on two levels.

If it's a crew of 3 bots, it's not me, it's probably the player of Qwine/Kip/Lulu, Eric, or a Finn. If it's just 2 bots, it could be anyone, from Daniel to the Danes.

I only zone with 8+ bots at a time. Many of you will try to crucify me or blame me unfairly for your deaths or the decline of Arctic. But I believe my experience uniquely qualifies me to contribute to this thread a unique perspective on the pros and cons of botting and as well their challenges.

For anyone who has tried botting, you will find it initially to be quite difficult.
If you have no scripting skills, it's a downright nightmare.
Basic scripting will allow you to scale to about 3 bots and as well your ability to find unique ip's.

To zone with a full bot crew of 8+ like I do, you need not only advanced scripting, but actual programming skills, not to mention acquiring the ip's necessary. My system didn't rely on proxies or VPN for IPs. Any imagined scenario where you have 30 people each running around with 10-man groups is not realistic since there are less than a handful of players who have the programming skills to script all classes and make them easy to manage. And many of these players who possess the technical skills have long left the game, like Martino or Lasse/Kimmo/Mika.

Simple tintin++ scripts won't suffice for a full 10-man bot crew.

My first crew of bots was:
 
Monika, Domahnugnuts, Gobarian, Tola, Casey, Hairesach, Savarin, Sullivan, Annabellee

My bot crew this wipe was:

Aemon, Yhonk, Monier, Royderage, Rhonda, Alanis, Hendo, Kog.

Additionally, last wipe, the cleric Riomar was running on my client scripts without benefit of my server code.

With my bot crew I have solo'd most of the major high level mobs and zones from Frostbyte, Argentine, to full Ravenshadow and maybe 15% of Blood Shoal. I was unable to conquer Sleet with 2 humans, and usually need another human operator when dealing with Amity/Warrior statue in Ancient. When Hoss paid me a visit to admonish me this wipe, I was soloing the Thane in Stone Bluff with 9 bots.

I've also been attacked and successfully defended attacks from PoG, Wild, and have fought in several of the larger scale skirmishes against dele and BiA this wipe.

My point is not to brag or boast, but moreso to give you a sense of the capabilities when you are on the extreme end of botting.
I may post some logs on Suf's in the coming days to show you a botter's perspective.

Many have argued whether playing with bots or humans is better.
I only started playing with bots a year ago because of the declining player base.
But since then, I've become spoiled by them and prefer playing with bots and my handful of friends (operators) who know how to use them.
If scripted properly, unlike with humans, you never have to worry about being rescued, bashing, getting healed, or being afk.
Additionally, you don't have to worry about people recalling during ambushes.
For better or worse, they fight with you to the death, which can lead to mass rips.
But cowardice is never an issue like it is with humans.

I used my bots to shepherd Maza through Cloud Kingdom, and as well led a group of Myth through Ravenshadow. I did make an effort to include small groups and booted bots for humans, even though my bots were stronger chars since they were legend and rank 30+. I also popped people's decays and performed CR's for people. I'm not saying I'm Mother Teresa, but I did go try to help as many people as I could who weren't whiners/complainers/carebears.

I think any suggestion of trying to find some magical number, ie. a 2 bot limitation is misguided. It would be an unenforceable nightmare to police. If you allow 2, you minus well allow 10.

The main thing is, to give Hoss a sense of control. The issue of whether bots are good or bad is not the issue. Hoss needs to feel like he has control over his sandbox. Maybe create one port where he can continue to be communist as Daniel would say, and let another port be free market (botting allowed). Bots unnerve him because he feels like he's lost control of Arctic. This is a person who likes to be in power and in control. My own personal suggestion is to just let next wipe be a wipe where the leadership lets anything go. Arctic is probably around for a couple more years before there's no playerbase for it to be viable and people have moved on. A separate port would be a middle-ground solution.

Minus well let Arctic die naturally or ask the current leadership to resign and step down. For myself personally, I could never go back to just 1 char. Even 8 felt constricted in all honesty since I never felt like I had enough bashers.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoodoo on July 26, 2013, 12:54:28 AM
Time to weigh in on this issue, again.  Far from the first shot at it, for me. 

First, I have never botted, and I have never multi'd.  Why? See below.

I vigorously stand on the side of the anti-botters. Partially, it's for the same reason Anaya (I think!) stated, though not quite in these words: it's against the *bleeping* rules, so don't *bleeping* do it, you *bleeps*.   Simple reason, simply stated.  Don't be that guy. 

Games (and, indeed, most social systems) work because the administrators of those systems have created a set of rules which allow for fair and equitable play across the board.  Now, Arctic has always had an iffy history on this.  I've played since roughly '92-93 (I remember Hobbes), and in that time, well, some of the cheating was *notorious*.  The number of stories I heard about Shriners mudding from the server room, oloading pris wands, cheating characters and dominating pk, etc... it actually made me quit for a couple years in the mid-nineties, because I honestly felt that if I couldn't cheat, I couldn't compete.   I don't know the truth behind these rumors, though I would love to (esp. the one about what brought about the destruction of original Tarsis.. that was an odd rumor).  What I do know is that, in an environment where one has two or more levels of privilege, those people who are systemically disadvantaged will tend to either leave or attempt to become upwardly mobile in privilege. 

I don't want a system which rewards those people who are willing to ignore the rules of the game we play.  "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'" is NASCAR, not this place.  If the rules allow the playing of two characters, well, I happen to have 2 legends and another that's close. I can adjust and adapt, with the knowledge that I'm not being 'that guy'.  I can honestly say that, while I may not know as much of the MUD as others, every damned thing I learned was learned honestly, not through a determined attempt to undermine the social structure of the game in order to 'win' it.

No, that's not overstating the effects of bots over the last few wipes.  Since Reed (thank you for finally admitting you botted while ruining the afternoons of many people who just wanted to zone, and formed clans purely with that intention, by the way) and his cleric/barb bottastic duo started really showing the PK possibilities, bots have allowed 1 or 2 people to have a disproportionate voice in PK and clan politics.  With just 1 character to rely on, such level heads as Lottie, Bryton or Reed would never have been able to cause such mass destruction (specifically referring to the number of people those three have actively driven off the mud, with that stated purpose).  If others who actually give a shit about the rules had been allowed to retaliate in kind, we'd have been able to do much more to fend them off.   When guns are outlawed, only outlaws own guns.

I've never been shy about my views in regards to this.  I've had one person promise to 'hunt me and kill me 1-2 times a week, every week, until I quit' because I had a problem with his botting polluting my clan, and the willingness to make an issue of it regardless of how 31337 he may have been at leading.  I appreciate that we finally have a forum to discuss this, as opposed to just bitching in private and watching the cheaters win.

Jason

Siobhain/Vyllein/Hoodoo
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Boots on July 26, 2013, 02:08:09 AM
I only started playing with bots a year ago because of the declining player base.
But since then, I've become spoiled by them and prefer playing with bots and my handful of friends (operators) who know how to use them.

   You are full of imagination. Only you and your friends can figure out the intricacies of using more then 1 character at a time.  We are all reasonably intelligent, If this option was open to the public people would adapt fast.

I think any suggestion of trying to find some magical number, ie. a 2 bot limitation is misguided. It would be an unenforceable nightmare to police. If you allow 2, you minus well allow 10.

   Again, your forgetting that you are probably the only person who has botted with a full 10 man party. And no, 2 is not 10.  Remember when ONE character was alot?

The main thing is, to give Hoss a sense of control. The issue of whether bots are good or bad is not the issue.
   Actually, the issue is not whether they are good or bad. The issue is that people, like you, are currently using them and screwing the mud over for the people who aren't.
   
Arctic is probably around for a couple more years before there's no playerbase for it to be viable and people have moved on. A separate port would be a middle-ground solution.

      You really have no way of seeing the future. It has already died for you in this format, because you have already conquered the entire game. No zones are new to you, and you are not interested in meeting the people who came here to meet friends and learn new things. 

 Even 8 felt constricted in all honesty since I never felt like I had enough bashers.

     You are so outta touch with how this game was imagined. You had 1 character, and the world is big and huge and deadly. Instead, you are an army, and the world is small and easily conquered.
Title: Re: RCA thoughts, supplemental rider - end of pwipe cycle
Post by: snax on July 26, 2013, 06:18:57 AM
So, the issue crept up that if botting/multying disappeared then you have some other systems affected.  Deep renting, PK, gear balance, and zone/rank balance.

This is a valid concern and I'm going to stay neutral on the issue and throw out the following:

1) if people can multi, expect that limit gear will require several orders of magnitude of spamming for decays / loads.  Especially with an artificial "surge" in playerbase.  In addition, ranks will be spammed for most any of the non amazingly difficult/ notoriously hard and secret zones.  This is a consideration.

2) PK:  someone stated a cooldown before you could engage in pk after logging on.  (personal thought: neat idea, how about 30 minutes after you log on? or even an hour?  what if your flags lasted nearly indefinately (say: 580 ticks game time, with no decaytimer during rent cycles) for retaliation purposes for a single KILL (not aggro) - so if someone jackasses you, you could have a month to roll enough characters to make a reasonable attempt on their life?) dunno.  it's definately touchy with multying, I'ld have to again state the need for don't be an arsehole as a rule.

3) gear/zone/rank balance .... would be skewed but most easily tweaked by reverting to the original system of no ranking till level 30.  keeping the xp table where it is would encourage people to try not to die, and initially reduce rank spamming.  however after a week, a new player / new roll would have to grind forever.  Pretty much would have to make a lot of zones limit X players, or throw in stone_dragon style traps of substantial caliber.... truly a nightmare.  3 is probably the biggest concern, followed by ...1&2 - of course scarcity of gear is probably the biggest justification for the rat-race to begin with and the source of a lot of botting. 

Glah, seems like a no win for yall, but maybe with some creative approaches it wouldn't be so bad.  Definately at this point in the wipe some experimenting could be done along with statistical metric grabbing, but only if there was a formally announced wipe date, a high level secrecy as to what was going to happen next wipe, and a just/fair and tenable solution to enforcing the rules/changes that are set next wipe.

now for several suggestions: (if botting/multying is ever openly permitted) to remove some of the difficulty for multying and put a base level of functionality out there for anyone who decides to do it-
            a. wardance auto rescue and is neat, guard is neat too.  proposed change: rescue skill rescues lowest hp without a target
            b. group leader can essentially order via group tell rescues and heals (only heal spell, only rescue skill, and only assist skill)
            c.  teleport only works on grouped / clanned players
            d. relocate becomes one of the hardest spells in game to get.
            e. enigmatic dome becomes all robe, and grants aura immunity to all tracking/relocating/summoning gestures, with 24 tick duration and possibly even c9 guild
            f. gear limits are adjusted, perhaps group negative's to key items such as dragon orb (group wide rotting flesh for x amount of time after usage) ?
            g. quest for clan creation, something hard, perhaps it becomes like a 10 rank permanent purchase
            h. cooldown on pkilling at logon
            i. crack pipes become more common on game
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 26, 2013, 06:24:36 AM
to me if botting is allowed it will seem like chaos day.  and it will be fun for 3 days then we will want normality.  I personally don't ever see myself matching what these guys will due in terms of botting.  all small scale fun pk will be abolished.  but w/e.

If you die with 1 char you will still have 1.  it will make all characters less valueable.  And the end result will be nobody gives a shit anyway

 
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Shesh on July 26, 2013, 06:25:21 AM
I believe the problem was misidentified.
In the public clamor of this wipe, botting/multing argument was primarily used as a convenient accusation against the harrassing clans and individuals. During my short play this wipe, I've only met 4 people who actually liked PvP, and a dozen of others who claimed they did, but lied to themselves. The age census, people got too old for this shit and want nothing but rest.
So - it's probably time to restrict pk - I don't want to be any part of it - botting issue is actually not relevant/important.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 26, 2013, 06:27:26 AM
yea I disagree.  balanced pk is fun.  botted clans win tho
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: eddiex on July 26, 2013, 11:07:00 AM
Botting/multiing is an issue because there is a significant portion of players who feel slighted by people who are violating the current set of rules while they abide.

If we are discussing how to make ARCTIC more fair and equitable than something needs to be done to bridge this gap.

If I play hardcore for 12-16 hours a day as i did this wipe (and especially with this wipes changed xp tables), leveling is exponentially slower than the person multiing/botting because they can guarantee themselves a consistent 2 man minimally for that 12-16 hours.  This advantage carries over to the rate at which you are able to hit the higher zones and in turn the untouched ranks.

By having a rule that says no multiing (even though we know people are still multiing) the only people reaping any benefits from this policy are those who are illegally multiing and botting.

Arguing that it just gives the cheaters what they want is flawed.  They already get what they want because there is no way to effectively police them as Hoss stated in his original post.  But for the rest of the rule abiding players of this game, we watch as 5 people or less are able to explore any zone they please, while we sit and try to organize 10 people who have different real life time constraints and attention spans.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 26, 2013, 11:17:31 AM
I believe these guys are working hard and listening.  lets keep giving good feedback.  Wipe is coming up and I am sure we all appreciate the work these immortals do for this game.

It's payday so I paid arctic a little.  I am sure getting some money in the donation box will help motivate these lazy bastards :/)
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 26, 2013, 11:28:04 AM
Is it more of a "I need more characters, so I can go zone by myself", or is it "I want to multi"?

I see those as distinctly separate issues, the first we could solve with game changes, the second not so much. I also wanted to applaud those of you that have publicly admitted that you bot. We all know it happens and I really do think we won't make much progress until we can shed any pretence and have an honest conversation.

I will also lift the 'no flames' rule as long as it is focused at Willoe.

I think for me it's the first. I would prefer improved pets (that do not respond to the order all command) over multi/botting. Based on my experience playing a darknight with a pet and a charmed/gazed cleric, a shaman with spirits, and a mage with pet and charm person, playing two "characters" (without triggers) is fairly easy, three is challenging, and anything beyond that would require scripts/triggers.

Currently there are three limits on the number of characters people play
a. rules (which permit only one) - some people follow this, many do not
b. ability to manually control charcters (human mind seems to be able to effectively manage 2-3 characters) - some such as reed and daniel say they manually control their multies, others use triggers/scripts to get beyond this limitation
c. ability to script - managing large groups of bots appears to require significant scripting skills and few could manage 9 bots and many would probably have trouble scripting a single bot.

Given how few people follow the first restriction (and are therefore limited by the next two), I doubt that removing the first restriction will create an explosion of people running around with 3 or more bots. I would guess that people would manually control their main and one or two support characters (similar to a dk with a dragon and a gazed cleric mob) and stop there because of the effort required to keep triggers/scripts up to date with changes in game mechanics. I would personally like to limit multiplay at whatever someone could manually control without triggers. In game pets/mercenaries/charmies would also allow this.

Maybe try it and see. We're late in the wipe, many have quit from being zapped by accident, it probably wouldnt hurt to allow multiple characters to log from the same ip, it would require no coding effort on the part of the staff, if it doesnt work out (like lots unlimited eq) things can be reverted.

My wild guess to the results if botting were allowed: three people would quit in fury, four people would give multiing try, and the rest would not change because they were already botting. If multiing didnt stop reed from quitting, I would expect at least half the people who returned to try botting would leave for reasons similar to reed's.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 26, 2013, 11:30:36 AM
I believe these guys are working hard and listening.  lets keep giving good feedback.  Wipe is coming up and I am sure we all appreciate the work these immortals do for this game.

It's payday so I paid arctic a little.  I am sure getting some money in the donation box will help motivate these lazy bastards :/)

Maybe "voting" should be done with donations...
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: gulca on July 26, 2013, 12:04:46 PM
Quote
c. ability to script - managing large groups of bots appears to require significant scripting skills and few could manage 9 bots and many would probably have trouble scripting a single bot.

This won't be a problem. I am willing to share what I have so we have a common starting point.

Like Aemon, scripting is part of the fun for me in Arctic. Unlike Aemon though, I've not used it for 10 bot group.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: corey on July 26, 2013, 12:54:22 PM
What's funny about the botting threads is no matter the end result, nothing is going to change.

We already saw this wipe what difference a "no botting" decision made.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Slunt on July 26, 2013, 01:02:22 PM
Exactly Corey

Those who are okay with cheating will continue to do so. Those who aren't won't.

Meanwhile the staff will use the slippery slop argument against allowing multi play while the same issue currently exists with out it.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: enochvey on July 26, 2013, 01:04:22 PM
This is from the perspective of someone who has never botted on this game, but has really wanted to at times.

I haven't read through all the responses in the thread yet, but I like the allowing two chars from one IP idea. That would allow me to do a lot more solo exploring, which honestly is more fun to me a lot of the time than doing hard zones with big groups.

I really don't like the idea of bots in pk, but I see the issues related to botting and enforcement on arctic as similar to the ones associated with a government debating the idea of allowing to citizens to have some means of defending themelves vs attempting to remove any possible means of criminals harming law-abiding citizens.

Both approaches have inherant problems, but when there is massive historical precedent for the rule-following people to be placed at a disadvantage, and little that can be done to truely eliminate the means of harming those at the disadvatnage, I think the best answer is to allow the rule followers at least a little more room to fight back.

I know that allowing two chars from one IP doesnt stop the abusers from making 10-man or multiple 10-man bot pk swarms, but it does give at least one of my characters a better chance of recalling from or even fighting off smaller groups or players/bots.

As far as scripting goes etc.. I use a basic system of highlights and aliases for rescuing when I zone, and the ONLY thing that has EVER reliably beaten me on this game for rescue speed was mavlads rescue script the few times I zoned with him. Even then I still was able to prioritize my rescues better than the script, while operating just a sliver of a second slower than a computer program...

That having been said, it would not be hard for me to use a similar system to control multiple characters for most pve content and even some pvp, so I am not terribly worried about the disparity between those with really good scripting skills and those without when your only dealing with one extra character.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: sart on July 26, 2013, 01:12:10 PM
Here is what this thread has accomplished for me...

90% of you are cheating.  That makes it the norm for arcticmud...

Thus after 20 years on this time sink.. I will no longer consider it cheating.

I can only speak for myself.. and from now on I will be multi'ing with all new characters.


I will not multi with Narotras/Sartoran. ( altho.. it would be nice to have heals backing my thief always.. )
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 26, 2013, 01:23:18 PM
not sure why you'd announce that, prepare to be hossed at some stage.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 26, 2013, 01:34:37 PM
Forum: gnua, btown, Jarrad, Brafu, enochvey, Oligo, sart and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Home Page: 12 visible players online now
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 26, 2013, 01:43:29 PM
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Brafu on July 26, 2013, 01:55:10 PM
This isn't about botting, this isn't about any rule. This is about how some players play the game and how their methods and mentality ruin it for anyone who isn't them or their friends.

Hoss, I don't envy your position, or that of the other imm's, but at the end of the day I don't think any amount of small tweaks and changes will do much of anything. Arctic's problem children will adapt and will continue to cause the same issues, and those of us who abide by the rules will continue to suffer. Again, I don't envy you because this isn't an easy problem to solve, and the fact that it's been an ongoing one for the better part of the past decade proves that.

I know you probably wanted more about the botting issue, but I think it's a moot point because all of the problems with it are caused by the people who cause problems in all aspects of the game, not just one. Those who bot, and don't cause problems, are not an issue because they don't make it a point to put their enjoyment ahead of everyone else's.

Yea, I'm a broken record, but at this point it's all I got. At the end of the day when it's all said and done, I'm probably done with this because I don't have the energy to spare on dealing with drama in a game. Perhaps that means I should just leave and get on with my gaming life, I don't know. But I do know that this game has been a part of my life for a long time and I would like to see it continue on and thrive.

The only real advice I can offer is to change the game so drastically that it's virtually impossible for them to continue to do what they do that harms the game, because when it's all said and done that's the only path you can take that will have any real impact.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jarrad on July 26, 2013, 03:37:47 PM
I first tried botting the wipe that legend first came in. Had a scout and cleric duo. Was quite easy and fun to play solo and in groups. I still stopped playing before the wipe was over without any char being deleted because half of the clan quit. Real life kept me out of arctic for the next couple wipes but I decided to give it another go this wipe. Again I played scout cleric combo and had fun until Hoss became suspicious of poor Rygaar and decided to have a chat in the abyss. I didn't bother with the whole count forwards and backwards from 2 windows at the same time game. Two chars went in and only one came out. This didn't stop me from playing although some clan members did quit over it. A few weeks later I made a paladin as a replacement but didn't bring it to clan zoning. This was not discovered, but I still lost interest in arctic and quit.

Why? Most of the clan had quit at this stage. Playing by yourself gets boring fast. If you are motivated to explore zones or keep maintaining your set it is useful to have a bot, but ultimately I have fun playing this game with friends. If they arent playing, I lose interest also.

It is pointless to continue to ban botting because it is more fun for the botter to keep remaking chars and play the game than it is for Hoss to spy groups and catch them out.

As Shesh quite rightly said, botting is completely beside the point. Arctic's strength is also its weakness. The game has historically revolved around getting the top tier gear to become truly powerful. So long as the nobashes and dragon orbs etc are limit one the only way to get them is via pk. The real problem now is that a rank 40 red robe tether bombing with a rank 40 basher and engaging instantly via spelltrap doesn't need gear to be lethal.

What I am trying to get at is that the focus is shifting from gear to ranks, legend characters are overpowered, and the increased proliferation of game knowledge all combine to decrease longevity of the game. It just gets boring after a few months. Will allowing botting fix it? Of course not, but it won't hurt either.

I logged on for a few mins the other night and surprisingly enough, even tho I was completely naked and just browsing the world merchant, I had a few chars try to kill me. This actually prompted me to stick around on the game for a few hours trying to hunt them.

The only idea that came to me regards pk is to have something like 6 hourly automated arena style pk events. The arena is open for 2 hours every 6 hours and while it is open pvp is deactivated outside the arena. Arena should be cash focused as in you pay 2k to participate and the winner takes all the cash with no eq loss. This at least provides 4 2 hour slots a day for any weaker clans that have been getting raped to zone freely and adds a new element to pvp. Should also include a function for honor duels 1v1 with full loot.

Oh yes, Pro Botting...
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 26, 2013, 03:42:44 PM
I believe the problem was misidentified.
In the public clamor of this wipe, botting/multing argument was primarily used as a convenient accusation against the harrassing clans and individuals. During my short play this wipe, I've only met 4 people who actually liked PvP, and a dozen of others who claimed they did, but lied to themselves. The age census, people got too old for this shit and want nothing but rest.
So - it's probably time to restrict pk - I don't want to be any part of it - botting issue is actually not relevant/important.

Perhaps there are two issues going on.
1. As Shesh says, people are losing their taste for pk, and so when they get ganked by bots, they complain about bots when it's really the pk they don't like. these people may even be ok with being solo players while others bot as long as they dont get pk'ed. These people ask to multi in hopes that they can fight back. I doubt multi will have the desired effect but pk restrictions (no relo gear, optionally appearing on who list) might help them.
2. The new XP tables have made soloing more painful, the declining playerbase has made soloing more necessary (maybe they got to join groups that had bots in it previously), and so people ask to multi so they can zone by themself. These people won't come back even if there is no-pk - but they appear to trying to fill the gap left by the top leader/botters leaving the mud.

I'm guessing people in the 2nd group quit a few weeks into the wipe out of boredom and were driven away not by enemy bots but by the lack of friendly bots. But the people in the 1st group continued to grind away without friendly bots until the enemy bots gave them too much grief.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Kir on July 26, 2013, 04:03:38 PM
So, from the posts I've read, it seems to me like most people are into the idea of playing 2-3 characters at once, but no more?

Even though some people prefer to play more, I personally feel the 2-3 chars at once (im leaning towards 2) is a pretty good compromise for everybody. I feel like if the staff was nice enough to accommodate the player-base with this change, then the player-base should accommodate the staff by accepting larger penalties to those who still decide to cheat even after the Stox and Hoss hook us up. In my humble opinion, I feel like anybody who still refuses to follow these rules should be mass deleted on the spot, maybe even their entire clan with them. It'd sound harsh but I feel like huge and harsh penalties are the only thing that will make people follow the rules, and as players we should all agree to be ok with this and not blame hoss when he is deleting people.

Also, I truly feel that if we are going to test this multi-play thing, we should judge it AFTER a wipe and not before. Theres already too many highly ranked chars in the game which would make it too hard for people rolling new chars to multi with to get an honest feel for it (ie to not continually be tether-bombed or nightmare while in slig camp).
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aristox on July 26, 2013, 04:56:25 PM
There has been a lot said in this thread, most of it good and useful.

We have a lot to chew on and we already have some ideas on which way we want to go with all this, but nothing is solid yet.  Expect us to be more open about what is going to happen as things move forward.

That said, I want people to sit down and truly think about this question, do not answer from your gut, let it stew a bit:

If multiing/botting were allowed in any form (pick your favorite), would that make you more or less likely to play the game for a longer period of time each wipe?


I have other things I want to ask, but I want to keep this pretty straightforward.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Boots on July 26, 2013, 05:15:10 PM
Would it make me play more or less for the wipe.

I don't think it would affect how much I play, unless teams of 2 people start pillaging
everyone...
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: gulca on July 26, 2013, 05:44:46 PM
This is another question to ask.

If you are pk'ed by a group of legendary bots, will you still log onto your bots to play for the rest of the wipe?

To answer Aristox's question, I would play way longer and more often if the players behave nicer to each other.

ie, there is a time for war/pk, there is a time to zone/assist each other.

I want to log on to enjoy the game, and by enjoyment it means
1. being able to zone when I log on,
2. being able to take part in arranged pk fights (with no hurt feelings) and maybe zone together
3. being able to help any random ppl who got stuck in cr.

I do not want to log onto a game that has
1. 10 bot group waiting outside the inn aggro'ing all option anon char
2. Or a game where I can't walk off the seat for 5 min outside peace and come back to a startup screen
3. Or needing a tick timer every 3 sec spamming who list for a list of aggro ppl

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Willoe on July 26, 2013, 06:07:16 PM
Personally I don't need to multi/bot in order to play so I don't think it would change my desire any...however I do know that there will be those that will play if this is something that comes to pass... as a resultI likely will be online more frequently.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Davy on July 26, 2013, 06:45:58 PM
I have never played a bot.

I like the idea of playing a Bot to help explore and learn so yes I would play more. I would also roll more then one character, probably 3 Cleric, Barb and Mage.

I think there should be a 2 character at a time policy with severe punishment to those found cheating ie deletion.

I think those who are PK bullies should also be punished maybe after your third PK battle over in a day you loose 20 mil XP per additional PK battle ie one PK battle equals one aggressor flag so you can kill like 10 in a battle but only three aggressor flags a day without penalty.

I think we would need to remember were a community and need to still group and play together.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 26, 2013, 07:00:26 PM
my answer is: it depends!

one of the biggest problems (linking this back to something shesh said earlier) is with the weak ass pk tactics employed by a lot of people. personally i quite like fighting and pk in its purest form, that is, the actual act of fighting other players. the reality is that 99.9% of "fighting" on arctic is trash talking, avoiding each other, mind games, and... wait for it....  trash attacks - none of which are really fun.

yes im talking about the people who rock barbarian and healer combos that are both completely naked, speedwalk to lytburg to animate 3 double annihilaters and try some risk free trash attacks. im talking about the people who strip down scouts to try and use that hypnotize para thing so a semi-naked thief can stab them down and then run away. the people who log 4-5 semi-naked characters and run to a lockable, summonable zone and spam summons wearing lucky bone charms. create armies of trash mages (some to fight with, some as relo anchors so they can puff around to wear flags). i could go on, but i hope you get it by now.

botting really facilitates this kind of trash behaviour, because solo trash pk is kind of hard - no single character that has shitty equipment is particularly dangerous really. when you have 2 or 3 characters, it becomes quite effective. the last thing i want to see in this game is more people being even bigger pussies, hiding their equipment forever while trying to snatch shinies with risk free trash tactics and running off at the mouth in the process.


if you find a way to prevent these scenarios, i'd probably play for longer periods.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 26, 2013, 07:03:50 PM
Let me explain to you why any policy that has a bot limit of 2 or 3 per player is misguided with a simple illustration.

Assume there is a policy of 3 bots per player.

Say we have 3 players, Player A, B, and C. And each has 3 chars.

So assume Player A, B, and C are zoning together, so they have a 9-man group.

Assume Player A is the group leader. Maybe Player B needs to go to dinner, and Player C has to put his kid to bed. Both Player B and C want their character development to continue, ie, gain rank, experience, levels. So they both say, "just recall and rent my chars when done."

Player A is now leading a 9-man group solo.

This is why if there is a pro-bot policy, I strongly recommend no limitations on the number of bots per player. The scenarios like I illustrated above will occur quite frequently and will be difficult to police.

People who play together frequently like clanmates will likely standardize on a common scripting codebase, furthering the blurring of dilineation of chars per player.

Arctic and its players can adapt and police itself without any imm intervention. Both dele and BiA were able to adapt to my army.
Most of the recent cases of imm intervention I can recall have resulted in players leaving the game and moving on.





Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: reed23 on July 26, 2013, 07:50:05 PM
It would cause me to play deeper into the wipe because I will be able to log at any point in time and be ready to play. Daniel - ddidn't think you were a cry baby like everyone else.  I pk regardless of the gear I have.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: muddeer on July 26, 2013, 07:53:57 PM
I am against allowing botting at all.  As Daniel argued there will be a lot more trash pking, even if only 1 bot per player is allowed.  Not many players can pk well solo, but anybody can with 2 characters.  I don't know how many players will come back if botting is allowed, but I bet we'll lose more due to the increased trash pking, especially newbies.  And it's not just because of being whacked everytime you are alone discourages you to play.  But they have to learn bot coding, in addition to learning a complicated mud.  Not many ppl have the patience for that.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 26, 2013, 08:07:01 PM
i'm not crying about anything, just stating my opinion about whether or not allowing botting would be good or bad.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Brafu on July 26, 2013, 08:13:25 PM
@Daniel

I absolutely agree with you on every point.

@Gulca

I also agree with most everything you said. The only thing I might alter is that I also enjoy the unknown aspects to pk where you could get jumped at any moment. But, having said that I also don't want that every single time I log on or have to be so freaking paranoid that I can't enjoy the game for fear that someone will try to kill me even knowing I might have no eq worth taking.

@Aemon

"Arctic and its players can adapt and police itself without any imm intervention. Both dele and BiA were able to adapt to my army.
Most of the recent cases of imm intervention I can recall have resulted in players leaving the game and moving on."

That's only true for those few who are willing to dedicate their mudding life to fighting back and taking care of things themselves. CORE did a good job for years of taking care of its own and not letting people run all over us, but it wasn't easy and it took a lot of time and dedication by more than a few of us to ensure we were able to do that. It also meant more than a few people would simply stop playing (or at-least did so on secret alts that not even the clan knew about) while the war was going on and some of them just never returned.

You need to understand that just because a group of players can band together and crush some group of dicks, doesn't mean those same players will want to devote most of their gaming time to some idiots. What's more fun. Playing a game the way you want to, or the way some other people in the game force you to play? Just look at how small the player base is now and you can probably guess what the answer is.

@Aristox

In regards to your question, it's hard for me to say to be perfectly honest.

I might play more, and for longer, if I was allowed to play 2-3 characters at a time. I do enjoy soloing, so having such an ability would allow me to do more on my own and to actually learn some things that my risk adverse side is hesitant to do when I only have 1 char. But considering how it would also allow me and 1-2 friends to do more when we are the only ones on... I would have to say it would probably have an overall positive effect on me playing more often and for longer into a wipe.

But, to be perfectly honest, the main reason I'm not really playing right now isn't because of the game itself, since I don't mind soloing even with the increased xp table. I just don't like having to deal with people who's only intent seems to be to make life miserable for others. Still, all things considered it probably would make me play more often if for no other reason than I could make some unknowns, do my own thing, and just have some fun again.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 26, 2013, 08:19:27 PM
Keep on topic gentlemen.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 26, 2013, 08:45:03 PM
I used to play leviathan mud and bot like crazy and it was fun.  If arctic ever turns into that then sure.  But arctic is not like that.  There is still a player base.    The reason people keep playing is because the game has a certain feel to it.  You log on from your real life and feel some sort of power.  Typing EQ and looking at a full set of gear kind sometimes give you chills and you love it.  Bots water it all Down,  I personally think it could ruin the game and even to switch back you would have already lost its magic.  Not including John,  jt m brother Tim and my newbie cousin all thinks its horrible..  You see we have never botted.  The point is it will ruin this game for what it is. 

So with all that said I very much seeing myself exploiting it briefly then I see myself quitting forever because this game will be ruined.  That's my POV
P.S.  I am in a pool tournament and it has taken me 3hours to write this.  I hope everybody understands it lol.  But 4 real people very much hate the idea of bot mud
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: DCPTY1986 on July 26, 2013, 08:48:05 PM
For the record, Aemon and I only used the bots in pk when we ambushed Dele in Silvanesti, BIA in ravenshadow, and the time we fought Dele/BIA on Lunitari.  I admit, I did use Alanis to tether bomb some MAZA at some point when Hoss was already hounding us and I was on the verge of quitting anyway.  Other than the aformentioned PK's we never had 10 man bot murder pk squads waiting outside of our enemies inn waiting for them to leave. Most of the SoB pks were either Essovius/me(chorillo) or Mumu and me or some other basher  who wasn't an actual bot. I would also like to apologize to the innocent lives that weren't  able to be spared, I don't like the idea of not killing someone that is barely suspect, I would love to see bots in pk but do agree with the others that its not cool to abide by the kill and ask questions later rule/tactic.

Anyway I thought I would put in my thoughts, I'm highly in favor of botting and think that I would definitely play longer in wipes because it has allowed me to learn things that I never would have in a regular group of people that don't have the patience of a bot.

-Dale C
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 26, 2013, 09:04:29 PM
I think a lot of people fear the unknown or don't really understand how botting at a high level works.

For those of you in favor of anti-botting, I'd just like to point out there are 20 visible players on right now on a Friday evening. Maintaining the status quo means you think Arctic is healthy with less than 2 dozen players online.

Although I played 9 chars at once, there were players (operators) who would hop on a char or two from time to time to help out with challenging zone features (like Megladon in Blood Shoal). These are players who otherwise wouldn't be involved in Arctic due to real life time constraints.

So when my chars were stripped of eq, that meant not only me leaving the game, but 3 other players/operators as well who would otherwise not be involved with Arctic. 4 players leaving Arctic is more than 20% of Arctic's active playerbase now.

There were some people in my clan who really disliked zoning with bots initially. But once they tried out the bots themselves, you really adopt a more team mentality than an individualistic greed-whore mentality and they became converts while still recognizing their limitations.

Arctic has 20 active players online, I think all options should be considered seriously because this game is on a death spiral.



Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Anaya on July 26, 2013, 09:08:24 PM
Well i thought about it and i would have to say i would play longer.  I have an off work schedule that doesnt let me play with most people.  Being able to play both tank and healer would allow me to do stuff if no one is on.  I would also have to say that is if i play.  Real life is more interesting than mudding to me these days.  Most of the people i grouped with in CORE have all moved on to real life and left the mud behind.  But if i just wanted to play a couple hours during the week here and there i wouldnt mind being able to play two chars.

Mike
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Nostramazos on July 26, 2013, 09:44:01 PM
@at Hoss,

I think if you don't address the pk status of the mud, you should not allow botting. I have said it before and I say it again, arctic mud has been and still is split unofficially in two types of groups. The one that plays the game as a metaphor for power and the one that plays it to have fun. The two groups don't see eye to eye but they are loyal to their way of playing.

I cannot begin to describe the problems of the first group. I will say this. The game for them is fun only when they win and they are predatory by nature because they want the text based eq. They also have the least threshold of patience and are most likely to rage quit. In trying to implement policies to satisfy that group, I am sorry, but you are fighting a losing battle. They will take the new botting system and they will exploit it to their hearts desire. So, in the first few weeks expect less real players. And if you think that "well not everyone is like that", let me inform you that the players on the driving seat of this group are like that. This is why so many fights and hate over eq.

The second group wants to have nothing with the first. It's ok for us not having the best gear, dying, falling in dts and our moods do not depend on whether we win or lose. For us arctic is a world to be explored still. Botting would help us but not when people have raised mages specifically to random pk and gather eq.

So again, unless you addressed the pk system, please don't enable them.

nostramazos
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Chisul on July 26, 2013, 09:59:39 PM
I would play longer into the mud. Much longer. This would breath new life into my game experience, especially as a pretty determined explorer. Having even one other char to help me test, zone, and learn (at my own pace) would be a huge win for me.

Plus I really love this thread. Most productive player feedback I have ever seen.

Matt
Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: snax on July 26, 2013, 10:20:17 PM
Dunno.  I do know that I'm extremely fond of the kracken creature zombie shark and blue dragon combination when I'm soloing which is pretty similar to botting.  It almost lets me do something other than sit in an inn trying to figure out if I really want to bother xping and running the same zones over and over waiting on obscure loads, low %loads, and grinding at skills.

so, if there was some implementation of the old pet shops with truly progressable pets (ala mages, and dk/paladins, and elemental rings style stuff), pets that are on par at the 40-70% level of a real player, that would be close enough for me with the whole thing of botting, and actually merit some fun.  so in that regards, if i could have say through questing or ranks or coin grinding maybe up to 4 pets (1 per 10 levels, bonus one at legend) that also had their own ranks and some spells gate style....

I could see for a brilliant implementation of botting that didn't really require multying or all that jazz.

so yeah probably, unless i'm bouncing around in the crazybin, I'ld probably play more.

some zone tweaking would be needed to make sure that some of the top tier zones still required real people, but in general, it would be nice to log on and go "okay i've put in my 500 hours of playtime, now it's time to go solo qualinesti" or such with some rentable bound and summonable bots...

dunno
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 26, 2013, 10:42:36 PM
Also tipsy I would like to say these massive char share botted POV is so bad.  They are arctic criminals
Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: Aemon on July 26, 2013, 10:55:24 PM
some zone tweaking would be needed to make sure that some of the top tier zones still required real people
Arctic zones don't need any tweak. That's the natural knee-jerk reaction, but it's the wrong one. Arctic zones are plenty challenging as is. I cannot tell you how many unrecoverable mass rips I've had of 8+ chars at once during the initial development with my first bot crew of Monika, Domahnugnuts and as well this wipe with Aemon, Yhonk, and co.

I had a mass rip with no CR like a week before I got gear stripped at Argentine in Vingaard Keep. There are certain zone features or mob specs that you take for granted as a human player that pose unique challenges to bots.

Some mobs that are trivial to a group of human players, become a nightmare for an all-bot group, and you develop a newfound respect for them. I am actually terrified of a certain mob in Sanction that most groups would consider trivial.

I don't think creators should take bots into consideration when they do zones. The character level/power is unchanged whether it's botted or whether it is in human hands.

People have this perception or mental image that if you have 10 bots you can just steamroll everything and kill everything in sight. I assure you, that's not the reality. It takes dozens of mass rips before all your scripts/code are sorted out assuming you script all char classes. And that's only your client-side scripts, not to mention the time you gotta invest to tweak your server-side JSON/RPC/socket calls.

Before people start asking for changes to the game due to botting, I recommend you first try botting in order to see what it's really like. When you start mass ripping your initial bot crews, you'll find the difficulty of Arctic is more than adequate.

Bear in mind that if botting is allowed, exploration will also increase exponentially (which is a good thing because more people will gain zone knowledge.) In this process of exploration, there will be lots of deaths.

I would really hold off on any suggestions of tweaking the core gameplay because of botting unless you've actually tried running zones with 9 bots. Otherwise you're just talking out of your ass.

but in general, it would be nice to log on and go "okay i've put in my 500 hours of playtime, now it's time to go solo qualinesti" or such with some rentable bound and summonable bots...
It is nice and not nice...because then you become to caretaker of everyone's decays. I actually did have to spam quali for a number of clannie decays. But again, you're not factoring in, the 200+ hours of scripting and coding needed as well to get you to a point where you can actually do that.


Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Vespin on July 26, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
I would not play if botting/multi were legal.  It changes the dynamic to rely on a skillset i do not give a crap about, and promotes steamrolling zones and pk with brute force as opposed to intelligent collaboration and individual decisions.  It would in short, be boring to me.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 26, 2013, 11:19:34 PM
Nice quick speech I agree with.  botting is bad for this game.  split the game in 2 if you must.  I however do not support botting for arctic mud. it will not be ARCTIC MUD with legalized botting.  ok so you guys have been cheating this entire time,  that does not make it ok  OR BETTER.  botting sucks and makes this game suck.  making botting legal will cost you within a couple months or less lose 50% of the player base IMO  an estimate.  you should not have fed these botters this much now they feel as if they have some ground to stand on again IMO

If you guys want to change this game to a bot game you will end up playing by yourselves a lot sooner then you think.  there is better changes to be made then legalize botting
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 26, 2013, 11:23:13 PM
split the game in 2 if you must.

This was one suggestion I made earlier.
Just make a separate port, much like Arctic has a dev port.
Port 2701 for carebears.
Port 2700 for anything goes.

I don't think it's a good solution because it'll fragment the already thin playerbase, but it'd give folks a wipe to perfect their scripts and learn zones.

botting is bad for this game.

botting sucks and makes this game suck.
This is clearly the pinnacle of Socratic debate and reasoning.

If you guys want to change this game to a bot game you will end up playing by yourselves a lot sooner then you think. 

News alert, there are 19 mortals online at the time of this post. And that doesn't qualify as playing by yourself?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 26, 2013, 11:43:17 PM
sorry getting the conversation kinda late, but gramm is right, can you really see a version of the future if botting is allowed where Loretta and those types aren't doing the exact same thing this wipe?

now that sob has left the mud the playerbase has increased, sorry its true, and not only has it increased, but it seems the people who are currently playing are somehow able to maintain a mature attitude towards killing each other and using scum tactics...the mud has been funner than it has all wipe, lets be real everyone playing has been playing for 15-20 years, can we really not hold ourselves accountable?

before Mumus deletion he was logging on and tethering a basher to try and jump anyone he could, lets say botting is allowed...do I even need to explain what would end up happening?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 26, 2013, 11:53:12 PM
do I think people should be allowed a 2nd character, definitely not, does it not take away something from the individuals aspect of the game?  How do we feel when we look back and think of the badasses of yesterday, would it be the same if it wasn't just superthug kiff and it was kiff and his thief multi kaff?  How cool would kiaransalee be if not only his badass mage but his other badass mage poofed at the same time, maybe people would actually need a 2nd multi bot if characters weren't already as strong as they are, any given persons main character is stronger now than it ever has been and can handle more than they ever could.  And if you forget the past you are doomed to repeat it, just going on the actions and results of how people have played in the past, using botting or not...is our playerbase really mature enough to handle something like this without running a 10 man group controlled by 1 guy, he gets bored so he starts jumping every neutral clan who runs around?  Yeah its a pk mud and not a carebare mud, but how much fun is the mud if the only people playing are the guys who only want to go hard and kill anyone for popping his lucky bone charm, the neutral players and neutral clans that don't want to pk or be involved with it add a good deal to this game, like it or not
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 12:15:40 AM
re aemon

you keep saying over and over that the botters being punished have decreased the amount of people playing...maybe you haven't been on in awhile, but more people play now then when your little bot armys were ruining everyones good time, you say your so kind to the neutral clans helping them in a zone, do you not remember refusing to peace maza/myth? asking for 500k in coins to get peace?

in this game knowledge is power, always been that way, always gonna be that way, well the problem is, some people currently have knowledge, some people don't, so when your solo botting all these super high lvl zones that u don't even need a 2nd human player for, how is the guy whose bottin his little army and doing the only zone he knows like dwarven keep supposed to compete?

if the mud is so hard now that we need to have extra characters to play, why don't we just keep botting illegal, double the amount of hps each character gets, sell heal potions in the magic shops, and make lucky bone charms nobash/limdam at least that will solve the confusion of which bot to direct the tells to
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Boots on July 27, 2013, 12:28:39 AM
Ok, I want to take back my view of positive for bots.

Somehow AEMON is under the impression anyone but him and his friend want character sharing to be legal, and he also is under the impression having 1 tagalong character is suddenly equivalent to botting a 10man army.

I am completely against any botting until people like Aemon are rightfully fixxed. If botting is allowed, he will be back to where he was less then a month ago, and this time we will have no recourse but to innsit like we pretty much did for 2 weeks straight.

Character sharing shouldnt be legal, and botting shouldn't be legal. I was in favor for 1 of your OWNED characters to be used, but this positivity is trying to be misdirected for favor of 10man bot armies.

And yea, Aemon needs a bot army for this carebear mud. I'll say it again, you have broke the game for yourself. You are like a junky, you can't get the normal fun from the game since you are use to steamrolling everything.

I grouped with you and your bot crew. remember what you told me?
"Three rules. 1) dont talk. 2) no charmies, and 3) don't slow down the group.

by the end of lunitari I could tell without a shadow of a doubt that you were using scripts.  Ithanked you for the group and left.

Did we have any interaction during that 10 minutes? None. 

i am against more then 1 character at a time.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Super Tacoman on July 27, 2013, 12:34:02 AM
apparently the current state of the game is not clear to some of you.  people are already botting.  people are already leveling faster than you because of bots.  people are already using bots to get ranks and equipment faster than you.  people are already killing you with bots.  this is already happening and its not going away.

the whole idea of this thread is that people are going to bot.  its inevitable and unstoppable and it is likely to become more pervasive not less.  the question is should it be legalized so that the players who arent currently botting can have at least some of the same advantages?  and the overwhelming answer from the non-botting players is "no! please dont help us have the same power and options as the botters!  it will ruin the game!  we want to keep playing from a disadvantage!"

personally im fine with that if thats how you want it.  it wont much effect me as i plan to multi again next wipe either way.  i have little doubt many others will as well.  and you purists?  you can continue to play with the handicap you so urgently begged for.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 27, 2013, 12:39:42 AM
Wouldn't using bots be a handicap?  yea I think so.  you are the one that needs the handicap.  I solo a great deal a couple wipes ago with a legend dark knight.  with that and a healer we could 2man en'gla.  bots bring NOBODY. I repeat NOBODY to the game.  the only thing botting is doing is you guys are doing it and getting punished and quitting and whining.  and you have voiced your whine somuch that the immortals are now seriously considering it.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Super Tacoman on July 27, 2013, 12:48:10 AM
Wouldn't using bots be a handicap?  yea I think so.  you are the one that needs the handicap.  I solo a great deal a couple wipes ago with a legend dark knight.  with that and a healer we could 2man en'gla.  bots bring NOBODY. I repeat NOBODY to the game.  the only thing botting is doing is you guys are doing it and getting punished and quitting and whining.  and you have voiced your whine somuch that the immortals are now seriously considering it.

my friends and i multied from day 1 of the wipe all the way up until we got bored of it about 2 months in.  we never once were punished or confronted about it.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: fulloflife on July 27, 2013, 12:51:49 AM
bunch of luddites in this thread which is super ironic given this is a computer game.

Take some risks and add some innovation into this game.

The immortals ask us whether we'll play more if botting was legal, I ask back, what do you have to lose by changing the policy?





Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Boots on July 27, 2013, 12:55:16 AM
bunch of luddites in this thread which is super ironic given this is a computer game.

Take some risks and add some innovation into this game.

The immortals ask us whether we'll play more if botting was legal, I ask back, what do you have to lose by changing the policy?

How about losing the ability to play at all because of Mumus and Essovius's having a season pass to gangrape everybody no matter which zone they are in.

Oh yay, I have two characters now, they can both sit in the inn because of Mumu and Essovius's 2 characters.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 27, 2013, 12:59:23 AM
The only people pressing this issue is the botters themselves.  I think this thread very much brings us to a crossroad for obvious reasons so there needs to be a middle ground solution.  But to outright legalize botting, even 1 char...  smh

I suggest making strong charmies equivalent to characters with basic commands,  maybe you can purchase more skills for them.  cleric/scout/basher types who are level 30 or what not.   Bots is like a virus or the government.  they are going to destroy us
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: fulloflife on July 27, 2013, 01:02:37 AM
Why are people mixing botting with pk? I don't care what Mumu does. If you have a problem with trash PK- ask the immorts to remove tether, which is OP.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 01:12:49 AM
maybe the solution like hoss said is all of us who are 30+ years old acting like we have some maturity and policing it ourselves, you say the state of the mud has people botting and acting like assholes, actually, since sob got stripped, the mud has been better than it has all wipe, maybe its cause all these people that you say are still botting can do it with some sense of being conservative...a lot of the less skilled players who got killed first and ask questions later have started trickling back into playing, and your right the mud isn't broke, the rules aren't broke, its the people and there mentality with this stomp your enemy or possible enemy into the ground and grind your heel into him so he can never play again attitude, botting hasn't ruined the mud, SOB and RGB and those type of players and shitty attitudes the mud, months after the wipe started finding out that SOB was botting the whole time, was just the straw that broke the camels back, botting or not you guys were horrible for the game...I had no idea BIA was botting...BIA didn't bother anyone, BIA kept to themselves, BIA didn't ambush every clan that can field a group more than 4 players...the mud itself isn't broke, the rules aren't broke, the mud is better now than it has ever been and its a real credit to the staff that cares and puts effort into this game, whats broken on the game can not be fixed, and its the same trash scumbag players attitude that has excisted for years, and honestly you guys did the best thing you could for the game when you quit and deleted after your gear was stripped, I think the biggest slap in the face on these forums now is how you make yourselves out to be some kind of martyr and how great you were to the game and how wonderful you were to everyone helping myth in ravenshadow and shepherding maza through cloud kingdom, maybe your entire clan wouldn't have gotten bored and quit if you actually conducted your pvp wars with some sort of honor, ive said this before, you guys chose to jump every single top tier clan ambush style mid zone, giving yourselves a big advantage each time, so after you took out wild, then took out bia, and crippling them because somehow your able to form 10 man groups 20 hours a day, well we see now why, at the beginning of the wipe during the first 2 months the first few large scale pvp battles set the tone for the rest of the wipe, if you lose one of those battles, its a serious uphill climb after that, im not saying ambushing someone is wrong altho I don't care for the tactic, but then you start in with the kill first ask questions later, and then you take it to a whole new level cause all your competition quit, anyone who is opt anon has to die, anyone with a name you don't recognize has to die, so not only have you won the game by your standards by driving off anyone who can compete with you, now your boredom with no competition anymore has you driving off people who have nothing to do with it, I had a real life friend who hasn't played in a few years decide to start back, so I give him a full ergothian set, no rings, 10 piece, by level 11 he was killed, no questions answered, no gear returned, not a 2nd thought to maybe hes not one of our enemies, not because you feel threatened but because you are BORED

and sorry but giving these people the ability to log more than 1 character at a time just does not seem like the solution, because its the same people who start the conflicts every single wipe, this is just gonna add more to there arsenal, and the few people who like to be neutral and just enjoy themselves and their human friends that actually think this botting idea is good, how much faster is this group gonna get bored if this rule goes into affect, ok ive soloed cyan with my 10 jmc windows, what now, lets go kill myth, its a pvp mud, if they don't like it go play world of warcraft

sorry but that 5 man group of myth neutrals adds more character to this game than you having 1 actual character and 9 fake characters on the who list, id rather play with a 20-30 playerbase any day of the week than that bullshit
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 01:13:21 AM
I grouped with you and your bot crew. remember what you told me?
"Three rules. 1) dont talk. 2) no charmies, and 3) don't slow down the group.

by the end of lunitari I could tell without a shadow of a doubt that you were using scripts.  Ithanked you for the group and left.

Did we have any interaction during that 10 minutes? None. 
I actually do remember saying that. I don't remember your char name. What was it? Even when I played 1 char, those were my rules, perhaps not as explicitly stated. The only scenario where I group a random non-SoB is because you shouted for a group and I told you to sleep and summoned you in. You preferred to group over soloing so I grouped you and now you complain I didn't offer you companionship? Maybe you should ditch Arctic for eHarmony.

I was doing Luni with or without you. If I've already solved Luni, am I supposed to pretend every riddle is new and re-read every RDESC?

I'm sorry if being curt or not talking to you somehow diminished your sense of self-worth. I apologize for that. If I was doing Luni in a rushed manner, it was because I was tired of spamming ToT/Irda/Lunitari/Silvi to pop tomes for Rhonda to get it legend. I didn't realize you were so sensitive, but it does reaffirm that my carebear characterization is not misplaced.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: kilians on July 27, 2013, 01:25:07 AM
I won't play at all if botting is allowed and if it is I will come back after the game is reverted back to its original state I can't believe imm's are even considering this nonsense bullshit stop crying about wanting to bot get on make friends don't be a douche bag and the player base will rise it has since u got rid of the trash so I don't see what the problem is bapting whiners
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 01:30:01 AM
, months after the wipe started finding out that SOB was botting the whole time, was just the straw that broke the camels back, botting or not you guys were horrible for the game...I had no idea BIA was botting...BIA didn't bother anyone, BIA kept to themselves, BIA didn't ambush every clan that can field a group more than 4 players...

There is so much inaccuracy and misconception in your post. Clearly you have been victimized repeatedly by pk and bots are the easy scapegoat.

SoB didn't bot for the first two months and already won all meaningful clan fights up until that point. No bots was actually a directive from the clan leader at the time.

In fact the only time SoB lost in a pk was when bots were used (against dele/BiA) in Lunitari. That's more a function of me forgetting a few settings and as well a Russian and I forgetting to spellup with cloak of bravery. dele had 3 bots that fight fyi.

I never actively hunted anyone beyond dele/BiA. If Maza and Myth hid in their stronghold or inn while I was zoning, that's their own fault. I never was triggered on them or hunted them. I even told Maza as such. I have no responsibility for their paranoia or cowardice. I saw a post in another thread with respect to pk stats, and my bot crew was not in there except for Moinier. I distinctly remember one time a Myth crossed paths with my bot crew near Northern Reach and got caught by Moinier's volley and died. I subsequently returned all his gear. So even that kill tally is a bit of a misrepresentation. Could I have run the gamut and killed Maza and Myth repeatedly? Yes, but there's no sport in that, only dele and BiA offered any challenge. So yes, I did self-police myself.

Fact of the matter is, aggressive players like Mumu and Essovius are going to pk no matter what, botting or no botting. Somehow people like to blame my bot crew, but it's completely unrelated.

On a related note, currently on Arctic:

Total visible people : 10
Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: snax on July 27, 2013, 01:36:38 AM
some zone tweaking would be needed to make sure that some of the top tier zones still required real people
Arctic zones don't need any tweak. That's the natural knee-jerk reaction, but it's the wrong one. Arctic zones are plenty challenging as is. I cannot tell you how many unrecoverable mass rips I've had of 8+ chars at once during the initial development with my first bot crew of Monika, Domahnugnuts and as well this wipe with Aemon, Yhonk, and co.

It is nice and not nice...because then you become to caretaker of everyone's decays. I actually did have to spam quali for a number of clannie decays. But again, you're not factoring in, the 200+ hours of scripting and coding needed as well to get you to a point where you can actually do that.
[/quote]

Yeah some do.  You're just not quite at my level (not flaming you so don't retaliate)....there are ranks, load maxes, and considerations to be had.  If every single person could run with 9 bots, how shitty do you think ranking and the game would become?  (again, not flaming)...some zones would NEED tweaking to maintain balance.  Case in point:  deep mines has i think about 29 rank mobs, but if you're allowing botting, all the sudden you need to consider balancing high high zones as well as low low zones so that people could potentially rank.  Anyways, thanks for the response, but trust me there will be a need for zone tweaking.   I absolutely HATE celestial temple, but could you imagine how hard it would be to get the about/neck/caliburn/etc if changes occur allowing 1-3 people to steamroll the zone day 1 of next wipe?  k, thx, shit wifey woke up, bai!

regarding you spamming qualinesti I put in over 100 hours in fc this wipe before I quit, and i imagine my total tally is over 500 hours for the last 2-3 wipes, so your spamming for a clanny is all the more reason why there will be needing some tweaks to the easier zones. 

I didn't go into a long diatribe about the zones I do yet, but here's the jist.  I get 1 person to anchor zones that repop, then I cycle through 3-5 alts for specific fights while the anchor cycles as needed.  And by anchor I am referring to anyone anyclass who can hold a zone from repopping while me/them switch alts for individual fights.

Case in point.  I actually soloed nightfall 2 wipes ago.  And I'm sure you know what an absolute pain in the ass that zone is to 1) trigger repops 2) utilize a fresh pop to switch chars around, 3) to do the zone with 1 man without botting/multying.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 01:42:17 AM
I hear ya that must be my misconception, or maybe your lack to view things in someone elses shoes, so you offered myth and maza peace with no strings attached?  I must have been off that day, how is it you manage to nail yourself to a cross like that, once you get the first arm nailed down its gotta be difficult but you really pull it off...and being that mumu pked with your clan members in his group, and maza was told, if mumu decides to attack someone we will help, just try not to cross our paths...that's your idea of being gracious with peace?  that's your idea of not being associated with them?  demanding ridiculous shit from these sportless neutral clans is how you offer to let them get out of the cross fire?  and even if they did fulfill your demands, you make it absolutely clear that none of it goes for mumu, and you will still hunt with him if asked, jeez your right...come on guys get off his case, we were just being whiny carebears, FREE AEMON BRING BACK SOB, the mud has lost so much character and integrity since that that group of scholars and gentlemen has left, things are just terrible without them
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoodoo on July 27, 2013, 02:03:13 AM
Aemon:

I would rather inn-sit or solo the same old crap, over and over and over, than group with someone who breaks the rules of the game I enjoy.  That's why, after 1 group with you in Ravenshadow (Siobhain, I *think*), I recalled and attempted to find an Immortal who cared.  Not sure I was successful, think I only found a disinterested 32 or something: to be honest, I should have tried harder.  I did submit a bug note with your character's names, I'm pretty sure, after half the group pardoned me without a single prompt between the stacked pardons. 

Botting being legal or illegal will not affect the amount that I play, but it might affect when I quit.  Mostly, I agree with the wisest and Greekest of us, Nostramazos, in regards to his opinion of 'Fix pk *first*, fix botting second.'   His analysis of the types of players which exist on the mud is spot on.  It's the old 90/10 rule oft quoted by my schoolteachers: "You spend 90% of your time dealing with 10% of your students."  The antisocial mindsets of 3-5 people (I really don't place the number much higher... the bandwagon asshats will revert to normal after their role models leave) have caused this problem.  The antisocial mindset which says "I'll pk you until you quit, and then I won!  Where is everybody???"... that's the issue here.  We've all heard certain people say a variation of that very same quoted sentence (sometimes in Runglish).  These people took their zero-sum game theory of Arctic, discovered that cheating helps you win if the other guys are actually honest, and ruined entire wipes for everyone else.

I read the idea "Allow 2 characters, and then bring down the hammer of DOOM! upon anyone who cheats with little to no mercy."  I love this idea.  Honestly, I love this idea if we stick to one player, one character.  When everyone who plays with a player *knows* the player is cheating, including multiple players of 31+s, and the player is allowed continued use and ownership of cheated characters, it becomes abundantly clear that cheating is tacitly accepted.  This was the situation for the last few wipes (3-4 at least. I think the Daniel incident was 4-5 wipes ago, and that's the first big botting brouhaha I remember.)   If we don't start enforcing the rules we have,  why bother making new ones? To this end... Hoss, thanks for giving a shit.

Jason
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Shesh on July 27, 2013, 04:10:59 AM
Ok, let's sum it up. The lipmans and btowns of this world, unable to cope with Mumu's inner flame, started beating the botting tantrum on the forums. Hoss got played.
Is anyone surprised? The answer is greeks. The guys who invented democracy and demagogy, and just recently leeched some $30bln from zee germans.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Basher on July 27, 2013, 05:35:36 AM
My read is this: botting and pk are two different if slightly related issues.

So far, the listed advantages of botting are:

- People can log and play without groups
- People can explore bigger zones and speed up the catch-up time for new or casual players to become competitive. It does not however solve the problem of cheat zones with specially obscurified secrets that are unknowable unless you have been told them.

You would think that the above would actually solve the problem of the casual player, the new players, the weak clans etc and make life more pleasant for them so they should be onboard with botting under the small pbase scenario.

However the above solution does not solve the problem of PK and actually creates new ones.

Technically, botting is an irrelevant distraction to the argument of getting people to zone easier. As someone has noted you could just overpower the classes/players and make even cyan soloable, through smarter and auto-bot charmies/pets, scrolls, buffs or what not to tackle the issue of too few players to zone. Legend is one step, more tweaks or multi-classing features etc. can solve the angle of being able to hit the big zones with smaller groups as an alternative to allowing bots as well. Being unable to charm clerics or more interesting mobs can be reversed etc. A good means to disallow this from being abused would be to make all pets "group members" to prevent the destruction of zone balance to hordes of pets/charmies. A charmie could also be smartened upto "bot" level.

The ones making the case for bots are making the case for a better playing experience for the casual player.

The ones who appear to squawking anti-bots are really only squawking about being pk'd and how that was ruining the mud for them whereas the record shows that this was primarily the attitude of players who were actually NOT botting. i.e. Essovius/Mumu the bot pk's combo's such Lulu/Kip etc. or reed.

The problem with asshole players has also been a feature of Arctic, from the classic shriners, RGB, finns, bsp, SoB whatever and really there should be no requirement for such players to be nice or play nice to suit others playerstyles either. They make the game interesting as well, but also means any tweaks to make the game more a more pleasant PvE experience would also similary empower assholes to be bigger assholes in the PvP aspect.

What is truly broken is the PK aspect:

The root cause of the whole is the idea of a unique Super character:

This is the root of pk dynamic and that has hit the spiral that leads to the death of this game. Get rid of game changing gear like nobashes, get rid of game changing spells hidden in zones that can only be done with that kind of gear and you will have a very fluid pk situation or even get rid of gear limits totally. This means anyone knocked down can easily recover and return to the game compettively. It means less people having to sit and hide in inn or roll lame trash chars and hide in weak clans like Maza and Myth who turn myopic to the reprecrussions due to greed for leaders or skilled players to fill their their groups.

- IF there is limited gear game changing gear, there WILL be battle to acquire it.
- Once it is acquired it's power WILL be wielded to prevent its loss.
- Since the opposition cannot compete fairly against game changing gear/spells they WILL turn trashy or cheat.
- Once the opposition turns trashy, the game will spiral downwards socially with whiners and petty angry people like nate.

Daniel - trash pk. The moment you kill and strip your opponents of eq they automatically become trash when they try to get it back because they have none. Atleast until they take it off you and then you become trash. If Myth tries to PK SoB it is automatically trash PK because they only have junk relative to SoB and because this wipe SoB had most of the limited gear, technically any group they come up against that did not have equivalent gear is trash, i.e. everyone else. Hell even nightmaring mages are called trash because they do not have a dragonorb like the opposition group.

Everyone says SoB is the problem, but thats not it. They are forced to resort to their method because if they don't the "trash" Wild/dele/BiA will steal their shinies. If these, the "real shitty chars" would stop sneaking around and trying infiltrate neutral groups with the eventual goal of powering up chars to sneak attack SoB instead of straight up, if Wild/dele/BiA/the whole MUD actually let SoB monoplize all the super gear they wanted and shut their traps, humbly bowing and scraping the floor then there would be no problem at all actually.

To stay relevant the paradigm needs to change, if you address the symptoms and not the causes then it is only a bandage until the next evolution of the issue.

Some possible ideas are - get rid of the idea of ambushes, make all clanned chars automatically non-aggro to other clanned chars, Force wars to be declared by warning, allow challenges to force eq in rent out into contention etc. etc. we might have to create a clan war system here to handle this
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jarrad on July 27, 2013, 07:23:41 AM
The bot issue: Imms do not have time or resources to effectively and accurately stop people from botting. Those players that want to bot, will bot. Those that don't want to don't have to regardless of if it is legal or not. So long as it is illegal, be prepared to have chars deleted if you choose to bot. If you are polite and the imm is kind you will still walk away with 1 char, if you're an asshole, your whole clan will be deleted...

Implications of allowing botting: pk, zoning, "winning the game". The only really significant factor that botting changes is time. Characters are leveled simultaneously and there is an exponential factor in speed and power limited by method of control of bots.

If bots are automated (Aemon style) there efficiency is limited only by the scripting capabilities of the controller, and continuous improvement and customization to specific zones is just a matter of time.

If bots are one char alt-tabbing between two windows and simultaneously controlling them then there is a self limiting factor. Two can be comfortably controlled, three or four at a stretch, depending on class choices and level of triggers.

Ultimately this time efficiency has pros and cons.

Pros:
-Zoning starts as soon as you log on.
-Challenging content of the game is made accessible earlier.
-Exploration is opened up to players more easily.
-Small playerbase clans can compete with larger playerbase clans (to an extent).

Cons:
-The game gets boring earlier.
-Unless pk is regulated to a maximum of 10 chars vs 10 chars, the clan with more people wins.
-As exploration is made more possible, again the game gets boring earlier (provided the content is figured, some of arctics keywords are ridiculously obscure).
-The social aspect of the game suffers to an extent.

Ultimately in my opinion there is no in game solution to fixing arctic's playerbase. If you want players, come up with an efficient facebook client and bring Arctic to the mainstream...

Personally, for one reason only I suggest allowing botting. This is simply because it can't be effectively stopped. The ingame charmy system is an intriguing idea, but if it is implemented it will not address the botting issue. Those who want to bot, will bot, and those who don't, won't.

If those who are antibotting want to stop it, start paying staff to police it. And policing all the other cheating that goes on...
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Kir on July 27, 2013, 07:31:38 AM
lol @ the two guys who think that 30 players online are real players. Just fyi, I see 9 on atm, and if presumably half are bots, that means 4-5 people are playing this game, and of course that's assuming the 9 aren't being played by an Aemon type player, a guy playing 8-10 by himself etc.

Also, Lol@ people who got pked by Mumu and Essovius and blaming bots. That's actually Lottie and Tim, and I imagine they had Shesh and Dale tethered. Hilarious.

Its still impossible for me to believe that the Kilians and Btowns do not realize that a legalized multi-play system would give them an advantage while the people who already do not follow the rules would remain the same. The point of my entire post was because I played by the rules this wipe, and it just simply did not keep my interest as when I botted two wipes ago. I promise you, wild or rank would beat us in a 10v10, and we'd always come back, because zoning while botting is more fun. If you look at this wipe, wild lost 3 pvp battles, and the entire clan just disappeared. They didn't try to recover, they were just done. Hell, I've lost 3 pvp battles in a day and came back when I had bots. There is still too many people who have no clue how much the game improves while multi-ing who are throwing their opinions out based on the fact that they are mad they got pked by once.

But yes, I'd probably play the entire wipe if I could multi-play. As I've said before, this wipe I did not multi-, I played a legend thief which had decent gear (I was probably the 3rd best thief after Vespin and Daniel). I could solo a ton, but after 2 months of soloing the same things over and over I got bored and with no pvp and I quit. I love this game, which is why I want to see it adapt so it can survive.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: corey on July 27, 2013, 08:14:52 AM
The only people pressing this issue is the botters themselves.  I think this thread very much brings us to a crossroad for obvious reasons so there needs to be a middle ground solution.  But to outright legalize botting, even 1 char...  smh

I suggest making strong charmies equivalent to characters with basic commands,  maybe you can purchase more skills for them.  cleric/scout/basher types who are level 30 or what not.   Bots is like a virus or the government.  they are going to destroy us

This isn't true. I'm all for multiing and I've never done it.

Aristox: No, I wouldn't play the game for any longer at the start of a wipe. Though my time spent would be much more enjoyable and there is a chance I would return in the middle of the wipe to enjoy the game by myself.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Zervun on July 27, 2013, 09:12:11 AM
My 2 cents -

I'm a old fogey at arctic. I started around 93 - 94. My early days consisted of my shitty ass Paladin (I think he had like 15 str or something) and running around with Oeschard/Oligo and our lady friend who I have never seen again (Karenina) just outside of Solace. Oh how many deaths. I was a BBS dude, read Dragonlance books and found it through a search. I still have my 6 cd set of Redhat 2.0 CDs somewhere that I ran when I telnetted in.

I played heavily for years. I think I stopped playing heavily around 99 or so. I've led clans into some of the largest clan wars, I remember 10+ v 10+ people fights, I've been a minion, I've soloed. Since that time I come back periodically because I miss it but always have a "sigh" due to population. I still keep coming back.

Recently I've come back and am really pleasantly surprised at the changes and work the imms have done to take little frustration shit out of the game. For me this is the first time I've really seen more "usability" changes go in.

Going forward I think the big question is what will sustain the population. You are smoking crack if you think that there is going to be a huge surge in new players, with really any change. What arctic does have is a damn good mud with 1000s of players that have experienced it. I'm guessing like myself they will think about it and log in once in a blue moon, make a character and give it a go for a period of time. There might be a few new players here and there but probably 90+ percent of the time it is going to be word of mouth. I'm not sure about you, but at 38, over the last 20 years I've tried to get people to play here that like other games - I have heavily played mmorpgs, and I have only got maybe two people who even wanted to try it. I've done the whole MMORPG thing, led a 150+ raiding guild in EQ1, and I still come back to here.

With that said - I've had the capability since I started to bot if I wanted to. I've been able to open multiple telnet sessions since 93ish. I have never botted. I think it goes against the spirit of Arctic. Seriously difficult, non forgiving and massively rewarding playing experience. Hit a DT at 1x and lose everything? Having to build relationships with players to get what you want? Giving friends fantastic equipment so you can all work together to achieve a high end goal? Fighting a huge clan battle (back in my day we didn't even have a clan functionality btw), losing, still give them props, zone again to recover and fight another day and win...

Arctic is tough, unforgiving and incredibly rewarding. I think the Imms have done a really great job at tweaking some simple usability features in the last few years. Having bots is only going to benefit those few elitists and drive the rest of us away. If bots are ok, it's going to decrease one of Arctics cardinal qualities which is asking questions, getting help, making friends, teamwork, etc. I think I've died 10 or more times at level 20 trying to explore - all part of the game.

The few that can do it without being noticed? I really could care less but don't make it legal. I've been information security for over a decade as both attacker and defender. Having to use a proxy is a total pain in the ass unless you have multiple computers set up.

Have a check on IPs with alerts when people log in with the same IP - if you don't already have this should be a very simple code. Have it go to email. I would suggest not immediately deleting but contact said person - could be a house of people behind a nat which you would have to research a little bit while they play. Have a field for that exception "noted" so they don't get flagged again.

Love this mud especially with the new changes. For the first time in years I've been back on a regular basis. If you legalize bots there will be no social interaction, people will max and bot. I probably won't come back if that's legal. For me bots turn it into PVE. I play Arctic for the risk/reward.

I really don't think it is a question about how many bots. People who can/know how to bot can really easily bot multiples without noticing. You are a complete idiot if you think allowing 1 bot will restrict it at that. It would be even harder to spot than it is currently. Can you imagine a imm looking at it?

Imm: Hrm, I see these three people from the same IP. Is that one bot or two? Two people playing in a house with 1 bot? I think I'll spend the next hour checking this out. Another one logged on from the same IP, oh and another. Maybe this is two real characters and two bots? Maybe not? Let me open my excel spreadsheet to track all interactions that they are doing in the mud.

Seriously...

Z
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 27, 2013, 09:15:41 AM
I think I would go longer into the wipe if multiplay (improved pets which take up group slots is my flavor of choice) were allowed. This would make it possible to zone as soon as I log on. From what I can see from the posts, the biggest downside to legalized botting is that when people get pkilled with no real hope of retaliation, they can no longer report them to the immortals for botting, and there is no hope of having the people who allegedly cause too much grief (I don't know how bad it was because I had already quit out of boredom) deleted/zapped/abyssed.

I haven't played with the new "who" rules, but if I understand correctly, an agressor won't be able to relo/summon someone not on their who list. I would think this change would cut down on the style of pk that does not require the hunter to find its victim.
Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 09:24:17 AM
If every single person could run with 9 bots, how shitty do you think ranking and the game would become?  (again, not flaming)...some zones would NEED tweaking to maintain balance. 

My point is if botting were legalized, not everyone will roll with 9 bots. You're going to have a lot of people run around with 1 or 2 bots. A few roll with 4-6 bots, and a handful running around with 9-10 bots. Not everyone can run 10 bots at a time due to limitations in education, skill, and scripting/coding capability. You are making a huge invalid assumption. There are also resource constraints, ie, finding enough unique ip's. At a certain point, you will incur real money costs. So any scenario where there are 20 players running around with 200 bots is naiive. To get to the point where you can actually run a full 10-man solo requires about a wipe of dedicated development and countless mass rips with no CR. Not to mention every clan tries to attack you as well. I speak from personal experience, this has happened to me. Rise, Wild, PoG, and VA all hunted me during my 1st generation bot development. This isn't meant as a slight, but someone with say a nursing background is going to have a difficult time fielding a full 10-man bot crew.

On another note, as I write this post on a Saturday morning, there are 12 visible people online.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 27, 2013, 09:35:50 AM
A little light pruning occurred, please stay on topic.
Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: Zervun on July 27, 2013, 09:37:05 AM
If every single person could run with 9 bots, how shitty do you think ranking and the game would become?  (again, not flaming)...some zones would NEED tweaking to maintain balance. 

My point is if botting were legalized, not everyone will roll with 9 bots. You're going to have a lot of people run around with 1 or 2 bots. A few roll with 4-6 bots, and a handful running around with 9-10 bots. Not everyone can run 10 bots at a time due to limitations in education, skill, and scripting/coding capability. You are making a huge invalid assumption. There are also resource constraints, ie, finding enough unique ip's. At a certain point, you will incur real money costs. So any scenario where there are 20 players running around with 200 bots is naiive. To get to the point where you can actually run a full 10-man solo requires about a wipe of dedicated development and countless mass rips with no CR. Not to mention every clan tries to attack you as well. I speak from personal experience, this has happened to me. Rise, Wild, PoG, and VA all hunted me during my 1st generation bot development. This isn't meant as a slight, but someone with say a nursing background is going to have a difficult time fielding a full 10-man bot crew.

On another note, as I write this post on a Saturday morning, there are 12 visible people online.

I completely disagree. It is very basic to script multiple bots with tt++ or the like. What nursing background person would even be playing arctic in the first place?

My argument is that bots make Arctic's cardinal qualities moot. With bots it is not difficult, requires no social interaction and so forth.

From the people I have talked to, botting would make them less likely to play not more. You are probably in the minority.

The talk about how many players are on at x time is kind of silly. If bots were allowed and those 12 people had 8 bots total do you think it would be better if it showed 20 people online for the one new person that logs onto the mud in a six month bracket? Do you think if there was more people online with the knowledge of bots being legal that they would be more apt to play? If bots were allowed and we saw a increase of about 10 players on at once (which would probably be nearly unnoticeable) I would just look at that number and think "wow more bots on now that it is legal".

I don't know about you but in over 10 years, I encountered my first newbie about 2 months ago that I can remember. I helped him out as best as I could. Not sure if he stayed but I haven't seen him in the last month.
Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 09:46:47 AM
I completely disagree. It is very basic to script multiple bots with tt++ or the like. What nursing background person would even be playing arctic in the first place?

The person (snax) who I replied to has a nursing background if I'm not mistaken..
Arctic players surprisingly come from all walks of life. Not all are IT workers.

Sure, it's not difficult to script multiple bots with tt++. But have you ever tried 3 bots, let alone 9 bots at once? You'll soon find the limitations of tt++. And try running real zones like Ravenshadow, Mithas, or Blood Shoal with bots.

Unless people have actually tried, you're speaking in hypotheticals and theoretical instead of reality.

My point is, the staff should give it a wipe where botting is completely restriction free and players give it an honest try. There are 17 players online right now.

I know from my personal experience, my botting extended the play time for other members in SoB. These are players who otherwise would have just quitted because all their gear decayed and had no means of recovering it or because the original SoB leader quit for grad school. I also know that my bot crew allowed players who otherwise didn't have the time to level a char play rank 30 legend chars. Their involvement in Arctic would be zero. So I know that bots definitely extend not only the play time of players, but also extends the usable life of characters.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: fulloflife on July 27, 2013, 09:48:43 AM
yes, botting makes the game easier which is a benefit, not a cost! There is no influx of new players- only old players who don't have time to grind xp and spam zones.  You want to keep the game the same, sure, but I thought the goal was to try to get more people to play, not less.

Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: Zervun on July 27, 2013, 09:54:51 AM
I completely disagree. It is very basic to script multiple bots with tt++ or the like. What nursing background person would even be playing arctic in the first place?

The person (snax) who I replied to has a nursing background if I'm not mistaken..
Arctic players surprisingly come from all walks of life. Not all are IT workers.

Sure, it's not difficult to script multiple bots with tt++. But have you ever tried 3 bots, let alone 9 bots at once? You'll soon find the limitations of tt++. And try running real zones like Ravenshadow, Mithas, or Blood Shoal with bots.

Unless people have actually tried, you're speaking in hypotheticals and theoretical instead of reality.

My point is, the staff should give it a wipe where botting is completely restriction free and players give it an honest try. There are 17 players online right now.

I know from my personal experience, my botting extended the play time for other members in SoB. These are players who otherwise would have just quitted because all their gear decayed and had no means of recovering it or because the original SoB leader quit for grad school. I also know that my bot crew allowed players who otherwise didn't have the time to level a char play rank 30 legend chars. Their involvement in Arctic would be zero. So I know that bots definitely extend not only the play time of players, but also extends the usable life of characters.

Well you are right in that I've never tried to do more than 2 bots - which was on another mud way long ago that was bot friendly. I'm assuming that "most" that mud have a pretty good knowledge about anything command line. The cleric bot is key - all the others wouldn't be hard to autoattack with the proper classes.

I'm not sure why you are stating how many players are online. For all we know many could be bots. You also don't know how those numbers would fluctuate. Since there has not been very much bot policing who knows what those numbers mean. You seem to be a botter, and are online, so are there 13 real players? Who knows.
Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 10:11:01 AM
I'm assuming that "most" that mud have a pretty good knowledge about anything command line. The cleric bot is key - all the others wouldn't be hard to autoattack with the proper classes.

If I had a nickle for everytime I told a clannie to go to Start | Run | cmd, and they had no clue how to operate the command line, I'd be a rich person.

There are many people chiming in on this thread with invalid assumptions or people are envisioning things about botting while being based on invalid assumptions.

I've seen a number of testamonials on these forums from players who tried playing multiple chars concurrently and said it was very difficult. If it were easy, over the past two decades Arctic would have seen more than one 10-man bot crew than just me. PoG regularly fielded 10-man bot crews but to the best of my knowledge, they always had at least 2 players operating the group.

That's why I strongly encourage the staff to let there be 2 consecutive wipes of no-botting restrictions before any conclusions are drawn and everyone try to maintain an open-mind about it, even the players who threaten to sit-out Gandhi style like Vespin should just give it a try. You need one-wipe just to allow everyone to adapt and then another wipe to see how things really are.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jozheg on July 27, 2013, 10:18:01 AM
I've glimpsed through the thread just briefly, so I might just repeat someone's opinion that I overlooked.

Why do we all play this game? Why do we play games at all?
To be the best and to have the best. These goals are interwoven.
The Arctic environment has limited resources and allows competition. It's a bloody market! And there's no crime a person would not undertake in order to win the loot.
To remove the need to commit these crimes, you gotta remove the deficit of resources. Perhaps also remove the competition.

Remove the limits on eq.
Remove PK.

Whatsoever.

Ah. We still love disemboweling
Make an Arena to pkpk, or hold weekly weekend tournaments to fulfill the bloodlust.
Title: Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
Post by: Gnua on July 27, 2013, 10:25:54 AM
From the people I have talked to, botting would make them less likely to play not more. You are probably in the minority.

1. the last poll had a majority vote for botting
2. only a handful of people who are for botting have not botted (I think only Corey and I have claimed this on the forums and dozens have admitted to botting).

Are people seriously saying they would quit just because a handful of 'honest' people started botting even though botting has been rampant already for years?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 10:28:40 AM
those of us that are anti botting, we aren't 'squaking' about how butthurt we are for being pked by sob, shit happens, and I wasn't killed by anyone all wipe until near the end, and then I only lost crap very easily replaced gear, because we have all come to expect the log fast mage bomb tactics, its all quite predictable and not the issue for some of us, what we are complaining about is the domino affect making botting legal is going to have, lets just say tomorrow botting has become legal and open and you can do it, can you honestly say these people who only gain enjoyment from the game by logging on for 2 minutes to try and take out anyone they can, they don't log to zone, explore, trade gear, chat, all they do is log on to try and pick people off, and now they can log there normal chars they like to pk with, along with their bashing or stabbing bot, letting people multi doesn't balance anything on this game, it just creates a new avenue of abuse for people who already try and abuse the game, if it was really such a small playerbase and you cant get any zoning done without having scripted bot characters, why is it everyone but the people who have been punished for botting, have somehow managed and thrived since they were punished without bots? by removing the botting element that has been on the game for the past few months people that were driven away by this crap have started coming back, making it 100% easier to get groups and zone, and as ive said before, are characters people can make and get legendary not stronger than they have ever been in arctics history?  people can solo and handle more now with just 1 character than they have ever been able to, and I honestly think the game has been balanced that way because of a declining playerbase, which was the proper solution to that problem, 95% of the zones around can be done with 4-6 people, there is no need whatsoever for 10 man bot armys for zoning   

and since when is someone scripting capability a measure that we judge a player by?  if people are so hindered by the population of the mud that they need to have 2nd and 3rd characters, why don't we just create some scripted bots you can hire in game, like neverwinter nights or something?

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 10:30:45 AM
the only time there is only 9 people online are the very early hours of the morning, dawn, its 1130 in the morning and theres 25 people on already, and just because you and your associate bot half of your zoning force, does not mean the rest of us do, so don't assume half of the online mud population is bots
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Kir on July 27, 2013, 10:56:25 AM
lol... so I am not to assume that half the population are bots, yet you are allowed to assume they are all real players. The face palm happened so fast I almost gave myself a black eye. You can read the forums right? where most people are admitting to multi-play or botting?

I am actually starting to think you are doing this on purpose. There are individuals who bot who would like to see botting kept illegal so they will continue to have the advantage over players who "play by the rules". Basically akin to drug dealers who would lose their entire business if drugs became legalized.
the only time there is only 9 people online are the very early hours of the morning, dawn, its 1130 in the morning and theres 25 people on already, and just because you and your associate bot half of your zoning force, does not mean the rest of us do, so don't assume half of the online mud population is bots
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 27, 2013, 11:03:12 AM
we are complaining about is the domino affect making botting legal is going to have...
it just creates a new avenue of abuse for people who already try and abuse the game

How about we try and see if there is a domino effect? Given that so many people already bot, what new avenue does this create for people who allegedly abuse the game? People who currently multi are already constrained by their scripting abilities and/or their ability to manually operate multiple charcters. Legalized botting wont change these current constraints.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 11:42:24 AM
why don't we just create some scripted bots you can hire in game, like neverwinter nights or something?

I'd gladly rent you a healbot at a rate of 5,000 coins/hr or some other reasonable market rate. Just feed it and drag it by fountains occassionally.

I think this is an interesting idea, we can have a whole sub-economy of scripters leasing chars to the highest bidders.

Bots at their most fundamental level are force/group augmentors.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Dyl on July 27, 2013, 12:23:53 PM
Why not just put them in game with quests to gain loyalty.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: gulca on July 27, 2013, 12:33:33 PM
I think one big reason why some ppl are against legal botting even when it has been going on for years is this

1. If you are caught cheating now, the imms can tear you apart, and that would be the end of you and hopefully everyone associated with you.

Now if bot/multi/share are allowed, imms has no more valid excuse to put a stop on these crazy players. The lesser pk oriented group would be forced to play the "inn-sit while these aggressors are on style" forever and ever.

So, here is a suggestion. We make botting legal for a period for testing. We make some botting scripts available for anyone who want to try out. We put a clause behind all these.

If any players are found to spend majority of their time to solely cause pain onto others, they (and anyone associated) can be subjected to one of the following
1. eq zap
2. eq and coin zap
3. legend status zap & -10 ranks
4. pdelete (ie clan delete)

Now, this would mean the Tim, Lottie, Nate play-style would need to stop. You cannot just go murder all option anon even if you know these are controlled by your clan tag enemies at that time. I mean you can, but your chars will have to risk being thrown out of the game.
 
These kind of players are always around and no matter what rules we have, their sole purpose is to cause pain on unsuspecting players for their own enjoyment. We will just have to nip them at the bud as they appear, but I'll like to give everyone the benefit of doubt.


Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 12:41:57 PM
how about we just have the staff get online and use whatever tests they used to take all of your clans equipment to test how many people are bots?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Chisul on July 27, 2013, 12:48:42 PM
Might be worth noticing, but most of the shouts on the shout channel are for mid level chars. Might be a sign of people returning to the mud.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 12:55:55 PM
not really fair to assume just because you and your clanmates are blatant cheaters that everyone else is, I personnaly can't say 'I didn't start botting until this happened' I don't cheat, and if the people I play with on a regular basis did cheat and use bots...they must be very sophisticated scripts with full interactive capabilities, and if that's the case, you may want to adopt there script so you and your whole clan don't get shamed in front of the whole mud again

you use the excuse, sorry the mud was just to hard for us, we had to break the rules to gain an advantage, which is bad enough, but then you try and justify it to yourselves by assuming everyone else finds the mud a lil to hard as well and has to resort to cheating, I think the only real solution is obvious, we need to implement a difficulty setting for you
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 01:12:16 PM
how about instead of trying to implement legal botting, maybe you guys could try out playing by the rules like the rest of us for awhile?

if you guys want to see the result of making botting legal, have a chaos day, let everyone know it is specifically for the testing of what would happen with bots legal

I still don't see any legit reason why making bots legal would help the mud, 90% of the games content can be done with a small group of 5 friends, with legendary characters and all the gear thats around now that never was, there is no actual reason you and your goons cant compete like the rest of us

you have convinced yourself that by punishing these people who broke the rules for botting and them quitting was something bad for the game, as if getting rid of these people cost the game some huge portion of the population, by your own accounts 90% of your entire clan had already quit by the time you were using bots, they didn't quit because someone in your clan was using bots and everyone got punished, 1 guy took over everyones characters and then started assigning human players as 'operators'??  so as I see it by punishing this clan, we have only really lost 1 person out of the population, obviously he is a cheater so good riddance, you were able to handle and compete on the mud and do well while all you had was human players, your players just like every wipe eventually got bored and quit, now you are asking the staff to change the rules so you can maintain all your unique and great equipment even tho you no longer have the people to do it legally, isn't that how the equipment ebb and flow works?  you are super active with lots of people, you get lots of great stuff and dominate, as people start getting bored and quitting, the eq starts to decay and go back into circulation for someone else to be king of the hill for awhile, that is what u want to change, you want to be able to make sure 1 guy in the clan stays active and runs everyones characters as bots all wipe just so you can maintain dominance, honestly I don't see how this is even being considered, the only real answer is, lets start taking the mud populations tips that certain people are botting im sure that people complained about your clan botting for months before they were actually punished

well lets have the staff take that more seriously, we can treat it like child protective services, if someone gets it suggested that they are botting, a 34+ gets assigned to observe wisinvis for a bit, its not hard to pick up on someone botting
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: eddiex on July 27, 2013, 01:26:30 PM
I really can't believe that some people are saying don't allow botting. If people are already doing it and at a extreme advantage why would anyone say, no i love to be at a constant disadvantage.

Bot charmies created by imms really a solution?  I doubt it,  Why does anyone want to have something coded for them when they could have more control over the intricacies of the process?  Because they are too lazy?  And other players will certainly bot freely regardless.  I would rather control my own potentiality on same level.  This also ignores the fact that playing 2 chars is a completely different experience and has its own challenges and rewards.

In regards to Aristox question:
I doubt allowing bots and multiplay would increase or decrease the amount i played during the wipe.  I usually burnout due to hardcore mudding and return at some point a few months later for more casual mudding.  However, I would enjoy the mud more than i currently do without question.  As a Clan leader who does not break the rule of multiing/botting i am at a severe disadvantage to the cheaters who cannot be policed effectively.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think everyone needs to consider where some of these range of opinions come from.  We have both casual and hardcore  contributing to the input on this thread.  One thing i know for sure, the greater number of knowledgable players and leaders helps maintain the population of this game.  I remember playing 16 hours everyday to become the first legendary character EVER Onysablet.  And my clan zoned hardcore everyday.  When all the clan leaders get too fatigued or bored with the game, there becomes a mass exodus of players and this is expedited by the anti-bot war.

For those of you who believe allowing botting will create a pk problem and only be a burden to the casual players, I caution you to temper this extreme belief.  Not everyone on this game is a malicious asshole and there is ALREADY a Don't be a Dick policy that i think was mentioned at the beginning of this wipe.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: eddiex on July 27, 2013, 01:47:19 PM
And one more thing.  The people you are scared of becoming raging assholes with the legalization of Botting/Multiing, THEY ARE ALREADY BOTTING AND MULTIING.

Mentality 1 (don't allow botting):
I love to be super hood and don't give a shit about upward socio-economic mobility.  I keep it G.

Mentality 2 (allow botting):
bapt the hood i'm tired of this shitty ass generic cereal.  All those hedgefund babies got it easy.  If i only had some of their money, I'd do some amazing shit.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 27, 2013, 01:56:12 PM
if you guys want to see the result of making botting legal, have a chaos day, let everyone know it is specifically for the testing of what would happen with bots legal

The last time I explored on chaos day, Sancho chewed me out for "breaking the chaos day rules". I think I was this close to giving him a piece of my mind and winding up abyssed in chaos day.

Anyways, the #1 argument against botting seems to be: then the imms wont have a "rule" to justify zapping/deleting tim and lottie. The #2 argument seems to be: the botters will bot more thus escalating the problems. How about we give it a try and make an informed decision instead of speculating?

As far as I know, lottie did not get deleted for violating the botting rule. His who got gimped for being an aggressor (a new anti-pk rule), he insulted an imm, and got deleted.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: gulca on July 27, 2013, 02:05:57 PM

As far as I know, lottie did not get deleted for violating the botting rule. His who got gimped for being an aggressor (a new anti-pk rule), he insulted an imm, and got deleted.

I cannot say for Hoss, but it is implied that Mumu is just being a bad boy for the past few weeks before deletion, bringing nothing to the existing player base except to make many ppl either quit or not play the mud.

Mumu isn't going to stop anytime soon.
Mumu isn't expecting to be able to continue his spree till end of wipe. 
Mumu is just waiting someone (most prob Hoss) to take the bait and then throw out the blame game and quit in style.
Mumu's un-timely insults just fast forwarded the inevitable ending that's all.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 02:20:54 PM
botting can't be policed?

we don't have any 31+ staff members that are willing to donate some time to observing suspected botters? it doesn't take much to pick up on whether someone is a bot or not, and yeah we could site ban the aemons and ppl of the game and they would just get a new ip and go right back at it, well how many times of him running a 10 man bot group for a week, being figured out, getting stripped and deleted for it, before he gets tired of losing all his chars and equipment?

and I don't know who implemented this don't be a dick policy your talking about, but I don think everyone got the memo, theres a general attitude from the haves to the have nots on this game thats rude and not doing anything positive for the game

im really kinda disappointed that people who have done such great things on the game like being the first legendary and what not, want to make such a fundamental change to the game by allowing people to run bots, does anyone see that this goes against everything this game is about?

we allow botting and multing and then we have 30 clans have 10 characters each all run by 1 chieftain, I don't see myself as continuing to play and put time into being a mortal if this crap goes on

you people have put yourself into this mentality that just because you bot and multi that every single other person on the game does, far from the truth, some of us have been playing a long time and haven't lost our integrity or respect for the game and the other players

if its really a question of having staff available to actively police the botting issue as I said, we need a j edgar to get in there, have a @mud.arctic.org email as a tipline for suspected botting, if no tips are forthcoming right away, I don't see any issue with following different groups randomly while wiz invis, its not hard to tell if a person is playing with bots if your watching for it and seeing how the group interacts, obviously this person shouldn't have the final decision on everything, so lets say he observes it and picks up and logs what he considers botting activity, report it to your overseer thats in charge and let them see the log and observe it for themselves, after that if its decided its an issue, deletion for every single character involved in the botting, if its in a clan, delete the clan, once these punishments and policys are implemented, I think people in the same clan together will watch each other for themselves and not want to be punished for another guys greed and impatience, they can report them himself even offer up damning evidence, if the tip leads to the discovery of a person botting, only the perpetraitor is punished instead of the whole clan
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Bryton on July 27, 2013, 02:47:40 PM
You realize the staff is not payed to sit and follow people around all day right?
And if every 31 could follow people around wiz invis. There would be so much cheating going on it would be insane.. "hey where is so and so... Oh let me get on my level 31 and check..
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 02:58:08 PM
It's Saturday afternoon in the USA and I see 17 visible mortals on.

I think it just illustrates the sad state of Arctic when players are bragging about seeing 40 players online.

I've played Arctic on and off for two decades, only last year (2012) did I start to bot because of the inability to find decent groups. Except for my first wipe, my chars have always been in the top 3 in their respective class, regardless if the playerbase was 120 fifteen years ago or 17 as it is now.

I can tell you from my deep experience, having played 1 char at once, and 10 chars at once at the opposite end of the spectrum, 10 chars at once is a lot more fun once you get past the initial learning curve. I played longer, I explored more, and I learned faster when I had my bot crew. I actually pk'd less. Unless you have actually tried it, you can only speak from one perspective and make erroneous conjectures without any experience about botting. When friends wanted to play with me, I'd boot a bot to make room for their char or they could just hop onto one of my existing legend bots.

One of my friends used my bot crew to teach himself Pax this wipe and now can lead Glymmer and Verminaard. There's no other scenario except with bots where he would have been able to do that and learn a challenging zone at his own pace.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Kir on July 27, 2013, 03:21:38 PM
The whole "why don't you try playing by the rules" argument is hilarious. That's like telling people to drive the speed limit. Driving 55 mph is the speed limit. Any faster and its against the rules (law). The rules are in place to protect people, buuuuttt guess what bro, everybody still speeds, breaking the law everyday. Why? it saves time? Its more practical? Its more efficient? Its more fun?

Gee, sounds like botting.

That's why people don't "play by the rules", for the same reason people don't abide by the speed limit.

And most people who are driving 65 in a 55 don't consider themselves criminals, just like most people who bot don't consider themselves cheaters. I say we bump that speed limit up to 70.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 03:23:55 PM
I say we bump that speed limit up to 70.

In some parts of the country, the speed limit is 85, just sayin...
Not to mention the Autobahn.

Good analogy though.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 03:24:41 PM
im not a cheater, im not involved with your large clan pk politics, I volunteer to help police it, and im sure others would as well, none of this should have to even be talked about if people could be trusted to respect the game and the rules, and even if theres only 19 people online, if you log on and run around with your 10 man bot crew, guess what that only adds 1 more person, you do not add anything significant to the mud landscape and you take away from its integrity, maybe im just from a different time and mentality of this game where what you can handle on your own without multiing and botting earns you respect, not how well you can script, and doesn't having every single person that plays the game leading his own 10 man group and leading every high lvl somewhat secret zones take a little bit away from the fun of the game?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 03:26:30 PM
if the rules of the game don't mean anything to you and you feel like they shouldn't mean anything to anyone, why not just do away with them at all?

and comparing traffic laws to the rules of a txt based dungeons and dragons game is bapting stupid, its not a good analogy
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 27, 2013, 03:28:13 PM
I say we bump that speed limit up to 70.

In some parts of the country, the speed limit is 85, just sayin...
Not to mention the Autobahn.

Good analogy though.

A better analogy would be you guys are driving 120 and the speed limit is 35 and you guys should go to prison
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 27, 2013, 03:28:44 PM
i think its fine other than the abuse that allowing botting will open up could be far more concerning than anything you're seeing at the moment


i mean, this one guy is saying he rocks out 8-9-10 characters. he's trying to at least hide it somewhat because its "illegal" right now. what if it was legal? whats to stop him, or even me, from just making 2 bashers and 8 ocean scouts with can fly, det invis ranks and some 13-14 damage weapons. triggering them all on 1-2 targets and just coming in, one rounding them, looting and recalling. if i die, so what? i lost some xp and i go to the world merchant to re-eq and try again. i no longer have to fear retribution, since botting is legal.

delete them all? no problem, groups of that size can be level 30 and rank 6-7 in 2-3 days (or a week if you have less time). any of which is much easier than trying to snake decays one by one off stacked characters.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 03:32:02 PM
if you log on and run around with your 10 man bot crew, guess what that only adds 1 more person

This is where you are wrong and lack understanding. If I run around with a 10 man, it brings back at least 3 other players. Yes, I can zone with 10, but it is more fun to zone my bot crew with a couple other players. There are retired players who like to play my bots but don't have the time to invest and level one from scratch and rank it to legend. Botting is an avenue that these casual players can still be involved in the game.

Not to mention the players who have been alienated by the current staff and policies like the Finns or the current BiA who may or may not come back if anti-botting restrictions were lifted.

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: btown on July 27, 2013, 03:35:00 PM
Nobody want anything to do with this bot vision of the future.  People like Aamon are making other minor bitters look bad.  Your world is chaos.  People play chaos days for not long
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rezin on July 27, 2013, 03:46:26 PM
I guess we haven't really made it clear, but you, your bot crew, and most of sob, are not missed at all, rgb, not missed at all, we are happy you feel alienated, and we hope that you continue to feel that way and not play

if we think of botting being made legal and how to do it right and how to do it wrong, the way you did it, and the way your clan conducted themselves is wrong, if you hadn't of been so cocky and pked everyone you came across, then started pking the neutral clans of the mud, u may well still be botting to this day, but you couldn't handle that much power maturely

with BIA, they didn't jump people for no reason, they didn't random people, they didn't skrew with neutral clans, they kept to themselves and did their thing on the mud, if that's how botting was done, I don't think I would be as against it

if this wipe hadn't taken place, and the mud hadn't seen exactly what would happen if botting isn't against the rules, I doubt most of the people would be against it, but you showed perfectly why something like that cant happen, we can change the mud and try and fix it all we want, but theres nothing we can do to fix you or your clans mentality
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jarrad on July 27, 2013, 04:27:44 PM
Lipman, btown, Aemon and perhaps Kir, please refrain from posting for a while. Your opinions are clear, instead of conducting a flame war, sit back and wait for some others to enter the debate...
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 27, 2013, 04:42:43 PM
I started pruning a little more, but I think that is a lost cause, the thread has become too diluted to extract anything of value out of. I would love to hear from others, and I agree with Jarrad here that I think the cock slapping between the 4 people that has been going on for 4 pages just needs to end. You have more than made your point and provided your perspective the constant bickering doesn't solidify your stance.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aemon on July 27, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
he was aggressive towards everyone

...
its the fault of someone powertripping with 10 bots, and that's 1 guy creating that environment for the whole mud

I will refrain from posting further if I can make one point to defend myself using facts because someone is making baseless accusations.

Let me use real hard data from Arctic. Going line by line through the in-game pk command I've found:

2013-05-13 19:13:15 Moinier killed Kog.
2013-05-18 22:57:13 Yhonk killed Alanis.
2013-05-19 23:57:52 Moinier killed Rhonda.
2013-05-25 06:21:40 Moinier killed Alanis.
2013-05-26 11:01:15 Yhonk killed Atahl.
2013-06-06 01:09:20 Yhonk killed Rippit.
2013-06-06 15:59:36 Kog killed Lashric.
2013-06-12 22:01:14 Alanis killed Agravaine.
2013-06-15 13:22:03 Moinier killed Veigar.

So of the nine total pk's, five were friendly-fire accidents (mass charm, etc.).
So let me discuss the 4 non friendly-fire accidents:

2013-05-26 11:01:15 Yhonk killed Atahl.   (provoked by Atahl, he was randomly summoning us)
2013-06-06 01:09:20 Yhonk killed Rippit.  (ambush in Silvi, <dele> member)
2013-06-06 15:59:36 Kog killed Lashric.   (enemy, <dele> associate)
2013-06-12 22:01:14 Alanis killed Agravaine. (hit by area/volley, all gear returned within 10 minutes)

So out of the four total legitimate pk's, 1 was an accident, 1 was provoked by summoning, and 2 were straight up attacks. I hardly see how that is "aggressive towards everyone"
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Zervun on July 27, 2013, 05:15:52 PM
I hope my posts didn't cause a ruckus. I just want a level playing field.

At the heart of it, arctic was always the place that I could depend on that was a hard core mud where everyone was on the same page. Botting puts people on different pages.

I see the Imms making a huge effort (they always have) to make life easier on us with little tweaks and I'm excited for future changes. Recently there have been some very nice simple additions that have been quite nice.

The challenge and working with others has always been my arctic. With 10 man bot teams that can run high end zones, it's going to end up in unbalanced playing field where non botters can't compete. The argument that with the bot teams it bring back players just seems completely silly. I would wager that if allowing multi/bot completely that it will completely nix any old school players coming back and it would just be a handful of botters. Do you really want to play with 5 people and bots at high times?

If there was no PK it would be a bit of a different story. With PK botting takes on a massive meaning - it is a smooth road to trash PK characters without really any risk.

There is not any penalty from losing levels anymore...

After 20 years on here I have not heard anyone admit to botting - some always do it and I realize that. I think you should run the risk if you want to.

The comment on the Imms are not around to police it 24/7 is so sad. If there is a risk, it's less likely to happen. Simple alerts can be set up. The Imms over the years have done a great job and I wouldn't expect any super overtime for this policy, which has really been enforced for years...

Arctic population has gone down and muds are not a popular thing. Arctic is very PK. The 1000s that come back to reminisce and might stay for the new changes will probably have a short stay when a bot team rolls them, and even more so if they make it to higher levels.

The game was built to have team effort at higher levels. Bots simplify it. I've played muds with bots and they are completely non social. I don't know about you guys but that is one of the cardinal things I valued of arctic. I liked the exp increase, the having to stick to a class for a wipe (mostly), and making it more rewarding for whatever you do. Risk vs. reward. Very few things in gaming have it anymore. Bots is going down the WoW path which is 100% not what arctic is.

I'm actually pretty confused. If you can run a 10 man team with bots - what value is arctic to you?
 
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: xellos on July 27, 2013, 06:14:54 PM
The crying in this thread makes me want to go hug my niece.

@Locki - do you know why SoB always wants to pk you?  its because you cry so hard on forums and shouts that it amuses them.  Myth harbors warring clans multis because you guys love the zoning and equipment you get from them leading your groups.  I know this for a fact because Myth  knowingly harbored my cleric last wipe when I was in APOC fighting the finn army.

@Brandon - Quit crying wolf.  APOC had bots last wipe and this wipe and you knew about it. 

@true neutral casual players who got pkilled - that is the life of arctic, it always has been and always will be.  if warring clans suspect that you are the other clans multi unknown leveling up they are going to pkill you.  SoB did it this wipe and so did WILD.  When some new clan suddenly arises its an automatic question mark to the other clans.  its a tactic that been tried before.  example: VOID clan comes out of no where. we suspect its WILD.  we go pkill them 2v4 and what do you know. it was a WILD group.

@whiners that died to Essovius/Mumu - ya that was just me and lottie owning you. grow a pair and fight back.  you guys confuse the actions of 2 people with Aemons Army.

@kilians - you are retarded. your in a clan full of bots.

@i wont play if botting was legal - lying to yourself much? arctic is an addiction that is hard to quit forever.

After Luke lead his final charge into the fight with deleted most of SoB had quit by then because we hadnt seen a wild group in 2 weeks, Cyan was broken and raped us twice, wives got fed up being ignored, and some people just wanted to return to a normal daily schedule.  So the rest of us who still played took in the Army, hooked up with the russians and played  for a little while longer. 

Bots are great for zoning, total shit in PK.  If a real 10 man group went to fight Aemons Army, Aemons army would be utterly destroyed because scripts cant adjust to unexpected situations in PK.
Actually, bot scripted characters cant even handle certain mob specs, and end up mass ripping the whole group.  I would rather be in a real 10 man wipe racing then 5 players and 5 bots because in the end, bots dont stand up to a real controlled character.  Bots are a nice stopgap to fill in a zoning group and most of you who are whining know that you benefitted from being in a group that had a bot or 2.  so please get of your high horse.

Why do we play arctic?  I play arctic for its competitive nature.  Its a fantasy game, I can be whoever I want to be.  To some people Im a great buddy, to others like Nate they want to pkill me IRL.  All i see are people crying because the mud pop has declined, nicer eq has become available to them and when they get mage bombed and die they cry foul on the forums.  Do you know how many days of playtime it takes to even legend a mage, get the right ranks, and know how to finesse a PK?   Bots didnt pk you, I did.

tim - formally known as essovius/veigar/drizzle

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: enochvey on July 27, 2013, 07:19:53 PM
To answer the question about what would keep me playing longer:

(1) Things that would allow me to explore more of arctic on my own.

Legend ranks, world merchant, reduced penalty on death are great examples of things that have already been changed in that regard. I don't have any bright ideas for other changes, but one of the biggest things that keeps me playing is the sense of exploration, although I hate kewords with a passion.

(2) Things that help deter blatant griefing. Changes to the who list based upon aggressor flag is one example I've seen recently, but I think more could be done.

I would suggest learning from EVE online's pvp system where there are areas where pvp is not permitted unless there is a formal war declaration through the game mechanics, or if players are in the more dangerous/lucrative areas.

(3) Forming connections with other players in or out of my own clan and zoning with them etc. I like to solo, but I also like to play the game with other human beings.

Perhaps adding some sort of clan alliance functionalities above and beyond the existing clan functions might help.

(4) Having the means to escape and/or get out of the inn when being hunted by a much larger group. This could be solved by the previously mentioned pvp system, or possibly through buffs/debuffs placed on players engaged in pvp conflict that would make it easier for those outnumbered to escape.

This would have to be done in a way that did not negate the advantage of those with better numbers/gear if the hunted chose to stay and fight, but rather would give the smaller force a greater ability to get out alive. I.E. if a person in the smaller group uses an offensive spell/skill the buffs etc would be gone, but if they want to recall/flee from the get go, they would be harder to find/trap/kill.

(5) Getting rid of the of KW's that are nonsensical, or have absolutely NO clue to them in the room or even the entire zone whatsoever. Apart from the actual fighting difficulty in a zone, I can't think of anything else that gets in the way of exploration more than this.

People should not have to look at logs to learn zones. Yes there should be thought involved and it doesn't have to be easy. That having been said, the difficulty involved should not be about guessing words or looking at a thesaurus, it should be about paying attention to the details of the zone itself, I.E. interactions with npc's, room descriptions, item descriptions and scan info.

(6) If anyone noticed, not one of these things that has kept/will keep me playing longer has to do with the number of bots roaming around, rather it has to do with my ability to interact with the game's content and with other players on MY terms, with or without bots being involved.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 27, 2013, 08:12:24 PM
after serious consideration, if full scripted botting was legalized i probably wouldnt play at all, simply because i can't be bothered to learn how to script properly.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Keith on July 27, 2013, 08:33:55 PM
I enjoy scripting as a hobby on Arctic, even if it's never going to be close to the level of those who do it for a living.  I have botted <10 times on this game, but did enjoy it thoroughly when I did, mostly just to level up annoying characters.  I would play longer and be more likely to solo explore if multiing were allowed.  I say multiing rather than botting because then there is no extraneous skills other than playing that need to be learned (which has been a worry of some of the players).  I think the limit of 2 seems arbitrary but good enough (I would prefer 3).  I don't think groups of 10 bots are a good idea, sorry Aemon.  I think that more people will play if there are full groups rather than trying to scrounge up 5 characters to do an overall less fun zone.  I don't think that the overall pk environment will change much: yes, one person can more easily pk with a bot rather than solo, but overall, bots are terrible pkers as multiple people have elaborated on.
 
EDIT:  For the love of god, stop getting sidetracked on whether some characters caused you to innsit this wipe.  This thread is about botting/multiing, not trash pk/tether/animate/griefing.  High level, elite spell mages have always been a pain to deal with; this isn't new.  Start a thread on those topics if you want, but please leave this to the actual discussion of botting/multiing.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Malthros on July 27, 2013, 09:06:08 PM
I might play more for a wipe if bottling is legal but it won't fix the mud's biggest problem: the community is for of elitists and assholes. If I want to subject myself to ego tripping win at all costs people I'd just go play something like LoL. Other games are more casual friendly as well while arctic is and was a game for kids and unemployed people with tons of free time.

That main issue aside, botting won't really fix the mud it'd just add some band aids.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Brafu on July 27, 2013, 09:54:27 PM
Here's a question I think should be asked and answered in regards to botting.

Of those of you who ended up turning to botting, how many of you consider pk to be the main reason you mud, and zoning a secondary purpose?

It might not seem like it, but I believe that question relates directly to what Aristox asked.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 27, 2013, 10:20:46 PM
i used proxy servers to create a multi for zoning purposes, and they rarely have any use for pk.

they're usually a healer, who passes on all spells / equipment that any human needs and thus rarely ever gets legend. i think a couple wipes i made an ocean, so i could 2man with healer/ocean in my first few goes, but then realised making the healer the "bot" was better since it can help fill the shitty role that noone wants to play for zoning, not just for 2manning
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: kilians on July 27, 2013, 10:24:40 PM
@Tim  your retarded and last time iv checked we have had no one botting?

so they're for you sir go cock fight with someone we all know u enjoy geting your shit pushed in
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rhys on July 27, 2013, 10:31:30 PM
I offer the perspective of someone who loves the game but has no interest in the clan politics and is content in the knowledge that he will never have the elite gear. I play every wipe, really enjoy it, get far too hooked right up to about rank 10 or so. It is at this point that I loose interest because I am limited to ranking in solo zones which quickly becomes boring. You might say this is a social game and it is my fault. I can appreciate that but will ultimately become bored and quit for another wipe.  My most enjoyable moments have been the conclave tests the regen quest etc.

I have always felt guilty leaving a group at any time due to family commitments and am quite content with my own pace.  To answer Aristox's question, yes I would play a lot lot longer during the wipe.

It is quite obvious that multiing is epidemic. My present perception would be one of inequality and a considerable dissuasion to play again until it is resolved.

Regarding PK - i still believe a max pk per player would fix many problems (can be unlimited if war is declared between clans or regens at a certain rate. Finer detail to be adjusted).

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Brafu on July 27, 2013, 10:59:04 PM
@Daniel

But, more to the point I was getting at... what is the reason you play Arctic? Is it for the zoning, exploring, learning (and maybe social aspects lol), or is it for the pk elements?

What I'm trying to figure out is if those who end up botting are also more interested in the pk aspects of the game than someone like me might be. I'm not trying to figure out if the bots are made to compliment the pk side or not, but just if those who prefer the pk element more than any other are also the same who end up botting.

I have a theory that those who lean towards botting are also more inclined to be heavily involved in PvP. So basically if someone is really into pk and they find themselves in the thick of it every wipe (especially if they are the instigators), then it might explain why someone might be more apt to bot (or be for botting). Why? My guess is that, even though there might be 20+ real people online (and assuming its not two 10 man clan groups or something), they either don't want to group with X, Y, and Z, or said letters of the alphabet don't want to group with them because of their pk history (whatever that maybe).

It might be a stretch, I don't know. But I think why a person plays the game can be a big influence in their desire/need to bot or not. I have never really seen pk as the biggest draw for me in this game, even though I do enjoy it and seldom shy away from it if it comes. I'm here to enjoy the zones and play with friends, and while I like nice eq it's also not a huge part of the game for me. Basically I have options when it comes to finding groups, where if I burnt some bridges behind me (ie people are hesitant to group me because they might get attacked) then I might not and would be forced into botting or just not playing.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jorquin on July 28, 2013, 02:34:05 AM
i enjoy exploring and solving the most.  your theory is flawed.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: xellos on July 28, 2013, 02:48:32 AM
@kilians - obviously you are clueless and not in the inner circle of clan deleted. its comments like that, that make me think, next wipe i will attack whatever clan your in, but then again the leaders of clan deleted will be playing during the wipe rush, so obviously you wont be in that clan until they quit for the wipe and Ilya takes over.  Wasnt someone in clan deleted just released from the abyss for botting/character sharing? please step down from your horse sir.

simply put, 3 out of 4 of the major clans at one point or another this wipe used bot healers, or multied.  SoB - BiA - deleted.
its a fact, everyone knows

people are starting to blur the line with PK - bot characters - and multying.  its associated with each other but not the same.  Having to coordinate with only 1-3 people to be able to instantly hit the big zones made everything much easier.  Most people are on time constraints, living life, or have something already planned.  So when an unexpected decay happens you can go after it a lot faster then having to wait around for 7-8 real people. and even thne you might spend 3-4 hours in the same zone because it has such a low load percentage.

and i still think system notice when a  limit 1 item decays would be great for competition.

you zone to get big, once you get big, you look for a target.  but then again, most of the people crying didnt play arctic when you couldnt leave the solace sewers without some mage trying to charm/sleep/cone of cold you.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Jarrad on July 28, 2013, 04:41:37 AM
Some people are suggesting that bots are bad at pk. This is complete rubbish. Regards Aemon style it is true that you have little control once a battle begins, but he is constantly fine tuning to become more effective. For the 2 chars controlled by one person with some simple triggers, your reaction is approx one round behind the pace of play. Regards ambush style pk, bots are better than humans...

I can definitely forsee issues around some players if all restrictions are lifted. Now instead of essovius and chorillo tether bombing you have essovius + bots and chorillo + bots. I don't personally see this as a problem, but as hoss or aristox mentioned early on you will get escalation until everyone who wants to be competitive has to field 4+ chars... To me the beauty of arctic has been and remains to be the trap factor that allows the underdog to lure his enemy into a beat down, and one guy controlling 8 chars is much easier to fool than a team of players with shared knowledge and experience.

Arctic is NOT designed for peaceful zoning. BUT we have a higher playerbase population of peaceful zoners. Botting increases the capabilities of both sides, but ultimately the wolves will still kill the sheep. Recent game developments have been aimed at increasing the ease of pking (tether/spelltrap), increasing the ease of defending against them (wall of force, enigmatic dome). People don't only play an online fantasy game to make friends and be polite. Some of them actually play it to get away from the niceties of real life and have the opportunity to be an asshole... This is not inherently bad. Everyone deserves to get fun out of the game, but when you enter arctic you enter an environment that is based on conflict.

Any regulation requires active staff members to police it. The more rules you have, the more staff needed to enforce them. Pking is NOT abusing the game, pvp is part of the game design. The only serious implications of legalising botting is players become completely unreliant on socially interacting with other players. This does not mean people won't group with their friends. It probably does mean that they won't be summoning in the fairly naked and casual player who is shouting for a group...

Possible solutions:
a) add a link to the forum along with or rather than the website on the log in page.
b) add a forum category for clan recruitment
c) add a revamped wanted board, top pkillers make the board and groups killing them receive double xp and rank xp (number one = cyan level rank xp decreasing via position) Board is cleared monthly and people are removed from the board upon execution by mob or player. This system could be open to abuse, suggest only kills of level 25+ chars count as board kills, and clannies cannot claim the reward. Obviously nothing stops them from clan leaving, allowing a friend to kill them and claiming the reward right after they have ranked. However, abuse is also possible from the current xp gain for pkill but it does not seem to be occurring.
d) Reduce shout cooldown to 5 tics or so, there is not a problem anymore with reduced playerbase of shout spam...
e) Fundraise via playerbase to develop a modern platform for connecting to the game via social media to attract new players.
f) Allow 2 chars per ip address and address bot armies in game via immortal controlled pwipe style chars...

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: NisK on July 28, 2013, 09:34:58 AM
I am for botting, big surprise! I play arctic to explore new stuff mostly, and i like to be able to go to the zones and spend long time there trying to find stuff. So bots are perfect for that. Not many people wanna spend so long time in zones not to mention i would have to wait for em to log.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: reed23 on July 28, 2013, 10:42:20 AM
When can we expect some closure (for the time being) of this issue?
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Bryton on July 28, 2013, 11:05:57 AM
I would play longer and probably more if I could play 2 characters. The reason is I get so bored just playing one character to legend especially with the new XP tables and I don't have enough time to play 2 characters. But if we were allowed to play more then 2 I probably wouldn't play.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gramm on July 28, 2013, 01:19:05 PM
The moment i am stuck sitting in an inn because of some bot army or even 2 guys with 4 chars that intend to purely pk everything on the mud. ill probably go back to playing pure league of legends myself. Not everyone playing this game writes script. I personally have trouble creating an autosplitter. I know i am probably the extreme case of being script illiterate but ive enjoyed this game just fine without bots for over a decade at least and then some. Each wipe when i spend more time in an inn and writing on these forums than actually playing the game is about the time im done for the wipe. And as a myth member i have never declared war on anyone(in a serious manner). But open the flood gates and watch what some of the would be abusers do to this mud without any form of punishment. Again, botting already happens... only the ones that step way way way way out of line get punished. I think this is the best form of control and defense krynn has against this form of "tyranny". Some might get a way with it.. but honestly the ones that got nailed for it this wipe will come in force and eradicate anyone that does not conform to their pk methods. Just wait and see.
Sorry if you are the peaceful type that would use bots to zone and explore and learn. There is always someone that takes their freedoms way too far though and ruins it for everyone else.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Rhys on July 28, 2013, 08:47:09 PM
One thing I keep reading is # characters per IP address. Not that I have the knowledge but I assume anyone with a bit of IT know-how can get around this. Therefore limiting # chars based on IP address would be an unfair restraint.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Slunt on July 29, 2013, 08:05:41 AM
If botting were allowed.

I would play more (actually Play) during the wipe.

I would make 2-3 characters. And explore zones. I'd probably play the whole wipe. ( few hours a week)

-Dan
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Slunt on July 29, 2013, 08:09:29 AM
When i attempted to bot this wipe for the 1 hour before i got caught here is what happened.

I didn't try to mask my IP. I did use 3 seperate e-mails. I never had any intention of PK'ing or other negative interactions with players.

If it was allowed. I would just tell am Immortal who I was what my intentions were to explore and have some fun. Use all the same e-mail addresses and IP address and if i ended up being a asshole i could get deleted.

As it stand i've played for probably 12 years off and on and i have never been abyssed or punished for any offense (i never violated any rules) wonder how many people on the thread can say that?

Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Gnua on July 29, 2013, 09:38:27 AM
i have never been abyssed or punished for any offense (i never violated any rules) wonder how many people on the thread can say that?

Wow, that's pretty impressive. On the other extreme, my wife got abyssed in less than five minutes play. She got slept by an invisible character (back in the days of longer sleeps but after the days you could quit while asleep) and created a new character and got abyssed for multiplay.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: eli on July 29, 2013, 09:44:48 AM
I would play more if I were able to play 2 characters. But only until I was pk'd by a bot army or what I consider to be trash tactics. Fix PK first.

My suggestion: don't allow full looting after pk. Make it reverse proportional to how many chars are in the pk group. If 1 char pks another then they should be able to loot 5 pieces of gear. If 2-3 chars then 4 pieces of gear, etc. This would discourage bot armies to an extent. But there will always be people who just want to be dicks. Another benefit from this is that we would be more likely to see larger fights because people won't lose all their gear. Think about it, there aren't nearly enough players to support all the gear in this game. After a big fight, where is the winning clan going to put that gear? On multi's that they won't play nearly as much, return it or dump it. If there is a limit to looting then folks can regroup and go for round two. That sounds like a lot more fun to me. More pk, more gear, more excitement, less risk, less frustration.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: sart on July 29, 2013, 09:58:15 AM
I have given it a try the last couple days. 

In fact I created two characters and right away at level 1 sent a tell to Hoss who was on telling him "I am multying, can you tell?"

I can say just after taking a couple chars to 15, that it does open doors.. makes the game faster.  It also is much more dangerous... trying to get out of a tough situation is harder.   I also don't much care for it.  I ended up stopping playing both chars and just played one of them for a while. 

You lose that connection with your character when you are playing more than one.  You care less.  Thus it will effect the choices you make.

So my opinion is this... Make death penalties huge for pve deaths.  I would be ok with the loss of 2 levels.. make people feel it.

I am a pretty open rule following guy.  I do not feel bad about multying for a couple of days though because I told everyone I was going to, told hoss when I was, and am telling you now that I did.  Also, there is the fact that everyone else is doing it anyway.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Malthros on July 29, 2013, 10:49:09 AM
If I were to multi it'd simply be because I have more fun doing it than not.  The novelty would likely wear off fast enough and if you're playing a mud solo why not go play something else like skyrim or download the old gold box dragon lance pc games instead?

In the event you guys allow botting do a test run, something like:
Botting is allowed however you have to setup all the bots under the same email and whatever other info. You also are not allowed to use more than one character at a time in pk(self defense in an ambush would be ok) and using a bot group for pk or using any bots not setup in the aforementioned way results in all your characters getting wiped.


Run that way for a month or so and adjust as needed. Would suggest not allowing bots for the first week of a wipe.  Noting would kill numbers of real players fast than having hundreds of characters online but not finding groups because of bots filling them out.

And don't touch group size. Just because we can run zones with less than 10 doesn't mean people want to shrink groups even further. If you want a challenge then don't run a full group, some people want to be able to take newer or underdeveloped characters to run zones and not be bapted because som old guard players don't like that they can run stuff easier now than in the past. 
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Aristox on July 29, 2013, 11:21:19 AM
First, I want to thank everyone for the frank discussion.  As long as we can be honest and mature I think the game can survive and get through a lot of the stupid issues we deal with in our strange little sandbox.  I could have done without some of the sniping back and forth, but a lot of good information came out of this thread.

The TL;DR here is:  We are not going to allow multing/botting within the rules.

There are a lot of reasons for this decision.  I am not going to go into details because it will create an atmosphere of second guessing and nitpicking.  We want to do what we feel is in the best interest of the most players, whether everyone agrees or not.


That said, we are not going to sit idly by and hope everything works out.  We have a number of changes we are still hammering out details on, and I will give a bit of information on some of them here.


1. The Don't Be an Asshat Policy
This will begin being enforced with a new vigor.  Hoss' recent deletions/pzap of clans/players for multing, botting and/or being a jerk were completely justified under these rules.  These punishments will continue and expand.  Do NOT make your goal in the game to make life suck for everyone else.  We will let it go on for a short time, everyone needs a stress release, but don't expect a warning, or a discussion, when you cross the line, we will just delete you and move on.  No, the line won't be defined, you should know it in your gut.

Consider multing and botting to be under the asshat rule, even though they are called out on its own in help policy.  You can't hide forever.  I know those who already multi are going to continue doing it, just don't become a baby when we catch you. No one likes a whiner.

Players can help here.  We are a very small staff (pretty much 4 active immortals), if you think someone is crossing the line, tell us about it.  Just do not get upset if we do not agree.


2. More with less
We want to address the need for bots directly.  We have a lot of ideas around this, but the center of the idea is to adjust classes, items, skills, spells, xp tables and hitpoints to make it possible for us to lower the group size max.  We haven't settled on a number yet, we can't really until a lot of the other changes are done.

This will require quite a pile of work, but nothing over the top.  A lot of this is drawn from ideas we had for Lube.  Really these changes will be done sans-Lube, and encompass about 1/3 of what we had in mind for Lube, so we have some idea where we are going with them.  Lube is on hold, this is more important.

These changes will require the dropping of at least one well loved class, it just can't fit in the new system as it stands.  We have plans to replace it with something more in line, but be forewarned.


3. PK
We want to address the quickness of some deaths in PK.  We want you to have a chance to react.  This is related to the above changes, but I wanted to call it out directly.

We are also looking for ideas from the community on how to adjust PK to make the "drive them from the game forever" tactic more difficult to pull off.  Anything is on the table from NO_RELO equipment and allowing prep-spells to be cast in inns all the way to removing the who list.  Start a thread with your ideas, I will read them all, respond to some.

This all needs to be directed at making the game fun for everyone, including the people currently losing.  When one group decides to keep another group from playing, it is fun for no one.



4. Miscellaneous
We have a lot of little tweaks and changes in mind.  I wanted to make sure you don't think the above are the only things on tap.



I am going to close this thread here.  If you want to discuss anything I have said here please start a new thread.  I do not want PMs, I would rather have the discussion in the open.  I will try to respond when something warrants it.