Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 09:15:46 AM

Title: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 09:15:46 AM
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 10:51:43 AM
going to be monitoring this thread and deleting posts that are off topic/flame driven.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: btown on July 25, 2013, 11:40:54 AM
I am trying to think of 1 enjoyable situation that includes bots............. ok I cant think of any

Bots bring nothing to the table.  I like the idea of being able to rent a healer/tank from shops that have simple commands and maybe auto rescues.  say spend 10k to rent a tank that last hours or a healer

But as far catering to the botters because they will bot or quit is way off base and laughable.

Ok so you make botting legal.  I mean really after that you might as well make this mud have no rules whatsoever.  because people will quit if you discipline them and we don't want that.  right?  lol

If you are going to make botting legal atleast lets do it in this last part of the wipe so people can try it judge it and vote on it.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: corey on July 25, 2013, 11:53:05 AM
I am trying to think of 1 enjoyable situation that includes bots............. ok I cant think of any

Bots bring nothing to the table.  I like the idea of being able to rent a healer/tank from shops that have simple commands and maybe auto rescues.  say spend 10k to rent a tank that last hours or a healer

But as far catering to the botters because they will bot or quit is way off base and laughable.

Ok so you make botting legal.  I mean really after that you might as well make this mud have no rules whatsoever.  because people will quit if you discipline them and we don't want that.  right?  lol

If you are going to make botting legal atleast lets do it in this last part of the wipe so people can try it judge it and vote on it.

I prefer playing this game by myself and/or with a very tight-knit group of friends. The game is not set up so I can do that and be successful (pve). I enjoy exploring, figuring things out etc but become very limited by the people playing this game. I don't enjoy depending on others.

To the guy 2 posts up, I guarantee you're wrong about multis losing 10v10 all the time. If you gave Andrew, Adam and I the power to play 3-4 characters at a time the game would be in a much different place.

This, of course, might be what the immortals are protecting the game from. Unfortunately there won't be anything to protect for much longer.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Super Tacoman on July 25, 2013, 11:58:26 AM
kir's post is the truth.  like it or not when a player quits for any reason it can cause a chain reaction that is devestating to the player base.  you can claim to have better fun mudding with 8 people on but the vast majority of us dont want to play a dead game. 

arctic is a good game but even just after a wipe it is competing for my attention against the lastest CoD, WoW, and any number of other fun games.  with that in mind would i quit if i got abyssed for a week?  Defiinitely.  id probably quit if an immortal even warned me about multiing.  and then the chain reaction begins. 

there are definitely problems with multis/bots in a limited equipment game and using a 10 man mostly filled with bots to pkill is beyond lame, but at this point i think they have to be allowed.  too many people have tried them and wont go back to playing without them.

I am trying to think of 1 enjoyable situation that includes bots............. ok I cant think of any

your imagination is limited.  my friends and i were able to explore zones weve never been able to beat before purely because of bots.  also try soloing then try with 1 bot assisting you.  i can promise it is 10x more enjoyable.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: btown on July 25, 2013, 12:04:28 PM
I am pretty sure if I threaten to quit if botting is allowed these botters would be waving with both hands still.  its completely self serving.  these guys can get 10man groups without bots.  but they want to be able to make a 10man without grouping neutrals. 

But if we say see-ya we can do without these  botters then we somehow are killing the game.  its pretty amazing reading these same lines over and over justifying years of cheating even when there were no problems with the amount of players.  And then now they say "see!  nobody is left so now we need bots"!  fact is you probably have kicked several people out of groups for botted equipped characters who u want to reach rank 30 or legend and probably have caused a great deal of people to quit by "over powering with bots"  when in reality you may have lost that fight on fair terms but since you had 5 extra bots online the opposing team just rented and eventually quit.

All in all its a garbage move that deserves no medals whatsoever and you should feel zero pride in having controlled the game for this long.  sorry I am lacking sympathy being as I am one of the people who gets "run-over" makes me sick really thinking as hard I have tried in the past to compete against or fight clans like BSP MINE RAGE BIA RGB

The whole time these dudes were botting.  People are like oh "example don't get mad" <insert player name> and <insert player name> are the best leaders.  they are also the biggest cheats!

Sorry I am just trying to make a point.  players like this gets praised for being so great but the whole time they are playing with a stacked deck.  and then forcing eq or slaughtering others.   anyway I hope I stayed on topic

I shouldn't be calling people out.  i edited
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: btown on July 25, 2013, 12:13:14 PM
It's a two-way street

If I get killed by a bot clan who is relentless i quit.  and i wont ever come back.

SoB is that clan who would make the entire player base quit.  as stated before they bot big! admitted by their leader

Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 12:21:31 PM
Super_Tacoman brings up a very valid point that I forgot to mention.. playing two characters instead of one is way more captivating, challenging, and fun. I don't understand how people can criticize without trying it.

@Corey I am sure no doubt u would do well, and if you did win a 10v10 battle it would be a testament to the 3 dominate players, not the 7 bots. The point I was trying to make was that 10 Corey\Andrew\Adams would beat out 3 Corey\Andrew\Adams and 7 bots, since pk is very skill based. And real players >bots.

And Brandon, this wipe, while I was leading, there was not a single bot in SOB, and you can verify this with any of the original 20 members, including ones who are now in different clans who have no reason to cover for me. After I quit they got in trouble for botting as you can read on the forums because they started botting due to a shrinking playerbase. My rant about botting is not as self serving as you may think, as I did not bot at all since I wanted to follow the rules so we could war Wilds. I wanted to win legitimately, so we did it without bots. And I can't speak for SoB after I quit, but I never killed anybody who asked for peace\truce\neutrality. So if opposing clans die to SOB, that is their own faults for not being better at PK or diplomacy.

Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Gnua on July 25, 2013, 12:24:41 PM
I am trying to think of 1 enjoyable situation that includes bots............. ok I cant think of any

If I could bot, I'd probably solo explore dko, drac tower, celestial temple, largus, dk quest, crown quest, dk impunity, bandits, wda, pirates. I'd probably die a lot but then next wipe I'd be able to lead those zones.

Improved charmies/pets (i.e. ones that can tank/rescue without the mob autoswitching to the owner or ones with the regeneration spell) would also do the trick. Maybe if they could be named and join the group (and maybe take up 2-3 slots)
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: reed23 on July 25, 2013, 12:30:57 PM
@ corey - I disagree with you.  It is very difficult to pk when you are playing 3-4 characters at once.  If your plan doesn't work on entry, generally speaking, it is almost impossible to make mid-fight adjustments when you are controlling that many characters at once.  If you are able to 1 round or execute your plan, you do have a chance at winning the pk.

@ brandon - APOC was full of bots when i played with you, which made the clan able to do Cyan and other fights.  Without those bots those zones would not have been possible.  Go play 2 characters at once before you judge botting, you will never want to play 1 character again.

@ corey - I agree with you 100% regarding playing with your close buddies.  Some of the funnest times i can think of is sitting in my basement with Bryton and Justin with laptops spread across the floor on wipe day (yes we are bot-illiterate).  Doing bigger zones with RISE with 3-4 good friends was very easy to coordinate and a great time.  Controlling more than 1 class at a time was fun and challenging.  I want to make it clear that whenever a clan member logged on and wanted to join the group, we would immediately recall and rent a bot to make room for the real person.  That was a clan policy and real people were always chosen over bots.

My opinion - Allow every person to control 2 characters.  Make the 2ndary character known through a question in the initial char creation - Is this a 2ndary "bot"/whatever you want to call it character: Y/N.  This would make it known to the immortals to police the mud however they think they need to do that.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Slunt on July 25, 2013, 12:35:25 PM
To my Knowledge and Suspicion botting has been going on forever at the top level clans. I had grouped with bsp and people hinted you must forgive xyz player they are not themselves ect.

Back when I was an active player and Core was warring Rank they botted. Daniel freely admitted this in the forums. They often had more players and better gear but would continuously lose to us because we had decent players behind every character. This supports Kir's point that players > bots but also shows that its nothing new. That was wipes ago since then botting has become more and more of an issue and discussion topic. People talk about the great leaders who gained all the knowledge by cheating and running zones they wouldn't have been able to ect people who cheated back when it was less obvious in a knowledge base game where getting the information will elevate your for the rest of your career it sucks for those who didn't take advantage.

That all being said. I recently came back to play. I imagine i only have like a few hours a month to play. I started 3 characters simultaneously. I didn't roll or waste my time because my weakness would be offset by multiple characters. It was A LOT of fun playing but it only lasted about 1 hour before i was caught had a brief discussion with an immortal and stopped botting. I'd rather not play then be banned from playing. I have since rolled a shaman and have logged maybe 2 hours play time. I think i would play more if i could have another character to control. I want to be casual player. Do things at my leisure explore have some fun not be stuck with a group requiring my full attention. Not to mention the unlikeliness of doing anything at all with my limited play time if i needed other people. I thing botting should be allowed hell its been allowed in a big way for years even if no one will admit to it or acknowledge it its just more obvious with the smaller playerbase.

My .02

Dan
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: RaVaN on July 25, 2013, 12:40:13 PM
  I have realized that I have ceased to care about this topic...this is probably because I am more and more on my way out of this game, and at best am just a casual player who hasn't brought much to the table in terms of growing the game beyond tossing out information and advice as asked. 

  It has become more and more apparent to me that in order for this game to have half a chance to survive, Opt NO_PK needs to be added to the game WITHOUT any restrictions beyond choosing once per week to Opt NO_PK.  Then just let the trash bot to their hearts content. 

  Anyhow, regardless I am pretty much done with this topic and this game.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: reed23 on July 25, 2013, 12:51:01 PM
Ravan - Why are you crying?  I don't understand.  If everyone is able to play 2 characters at once, what is the big deal? Why would you stop playing?  All of the anti-botters seem to think that going against the "bot doctrine" is like Christianity now permitting adultery.  Times change, games need to adapt.  Arctic is not "failing" "losing" or "giving-in" by changing policies.  All Arctic is doing is adapting to the times.  The vast majority of people who play this game have grown up, have jobs, have nagging wives, have kids.  We don't come home after Math 1010 at 10 AM and have 12 hours free to mud.  If the game is going to continue, things have to change.  Unfortunately, the playerbase is not going to jump from 10 people to 100 if nothing changes.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Dyl on July 25, 2013, 01:06:06 PM
Not everyone wants to be forced to play 2 characters to be viable.  Some of us play at work, or exclusively on a phone, where botting is just not possible.  By opening botting up, you are putting the people that choose to play in certain ways/certain times at a severe disadvantage.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 01:10:35 PM
@Gnua @Slunt
Thank you for giving your actual opinions on botting. A lot of pro botters are afraid to post (and rightly so) due to the fear of 'admitting' guilt of botting and being ostracized by the loudly vocal minority or punished by the staff.

@reed23
He makes a great point. Adaption. Arctic is a great game and needs to survive. This is 2013, where there are many, MANY games that allow what they call in the mmo community "dual boxing". Now obviously dual boxing or having two accounts is beneficial to the game company because they are making twice the money per person, but that also doesn't mean its a bad thing. People find it more fun to play two characters at once. There is less downtime and more excitement. As Reed put it, we do not have 8 hours a day to mud as adults. We can't spend 3 hours a day sitting around waiting for clanmates to log.. we actually want to be playing the game and playing it at the highest level in the time that we do have.

@Dyl Botting is especially useful while you are at work. Having scripts\triggers to save you or continue rescuing or healing while your boss is standing in front of you or you have to answer a phone is a great thing.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: gulca on July 25, 2013, 01:11:23 PM
I would suggest we do run time testing on multi/bot/charmi for the rest of the wipe.

Monitor unique ips and just get stat over the next couple of months. Then hold another poll asking what the playerbase thinks having multi/bot/charmi after 2 months of real time testing.

Some rules:
1. All bot and scripts allowed.
2. Multiple logging char allowed.
3. Multi char sharing allowed.
4. Randoming and multiple killing allowed.
5. No pzap, pdelete, no interference from imms (except to log and analyze).

New shops
1. Regen, heal, stoneskin, ams pots and scrolls.
2. Charmies : healer, tank, thief, fragger type (level dependant and limit 1 per char)

Change the following items
1. scroll of recall and glowing recalls to "scoll of one way town portals".
-This allows ppl to enter the portal (require standing) back to town.
-Also allows pkers to use the same portal to chase their target back to same town
-Requires 2 actions to escape: 1st to recite, 2nd to enter portal.
2. word of recall spells stays same. "Pots of recall" change to scroll of one way town portals.

Pk limit
1. 4 ticks of cooldown everytime you log in from an inn. Char cannot pk during this time.


Many people claimed we have always been catering our needs to the carebear players and that is causing the decline in playerbase. Why not just open the flood gate, and let the "real" players prove they can rejuvenate the mud to its former glory?

2 months of testing isn't bad considering we have like 20 years of history?
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 01:16:22 PM
@Gulca I'd be fine for testing your theory as long as it was preceded by a playerwipe which was advertised via email or something, or at least given 10 days notice etc..

with the exception of the items in the shop, it would ruin the PVE aspect of the game. And the change to scroll of recalls might make bashers too OP
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 01:34:02 PM
Brandon no offense, and I feel bad throwing him under the bus so I won't use his actual name, but your cousin botted the entire time he was in apoc with you last wipe. As Reed previously stated you also had that lvl 30 mscout you guys used to kill cyan and pop a dragon orb. So regardless of whether you realized it or not, you had bots in your clan and you were botting. Under the current rules, your entire clan should have been deleted. If they had been, you would have thrown a tantrum at Hoss. See how this is going? The persecution of bots is ridiculous and it affects too many players.

2nd point Brandon, last wipe, APOC used bots and was doing Cyan and in a war with the top clan. This wipe, you say you are not botting and you are getting pked by Lashric wearing a woodsman's set. I am gonna go out on a limb and say you had a better showing last wipe when you  were botting.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: sart on July 25, 2013, 01:37:56 PM
Hoss deleted my comment which I think was very important before... ass

@Gulca - I  love ya buddy, but I would not play under your system.  I am way too casual and afk from work to ever live in that world.

Why not duplicate the servers.. run 2 seperate instances of the game for a wipe.. one that had no rules, and the other that did not allow pk.  The serious players and expolorers would play the non - pk.. for sure, because the no rules one would look like chaos day and call of duty combined.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 02:03:22 PM
Brandon, we are fine without bots as well. You keep making these threads about you. It is not about you or me or reed or jim or whoever. It is about the mud which currently has more people logged onto the forum reading this thread than are actively playing the game. We are trying to revitalize a dead game. We have given arguments as to why bots are and can be beneficial. Please come up with counter arguments instead of rants and accusations. Apoc botted like crazy as well, if you as the clan leader did not realize it, that says something in itself. I am sorry to break it to you, there are people who bot, and people who lie about botting. Some people who lie about botting (yourself) do not realize you are lying but you are. People in Apoc botted, and I'd imagine people in core and wild have botted from time to time albeit without their leader's knowledge or consent. However it does not change anything.

Again I reiterate, SOB did very well the first two months of this wipe while I played without botting. The best I've ever done as a clan leader, so obviously botting does not = winning. Botting does = fun however and a large playerbase.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Slunt on July 25, 2013, 02:11:08 PM
Given the way core was set up using skype at the time (when i was heavily active) there was never any bots in any core group. You had 10 voices in skype and i can say very positively there were no core affiliate bots.

If players in the clan botted in their spare time I would be shocked. Given the community of players we had and the interaction between us. I feel like i know member of core from that time period and i know there was no cheating going on.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Kir on July 25, 2013, 02:20:36 PM
Well slunt, if you can be sure that at no time any core members ever botted then I'll take your word on it as I was just assuming. Ok, so there are botters, people who lie about botting, and Core who do not bot (although I am not sure even they still play even)
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Slunt on July 25, 2013, 02:23:14 PM
Anyhow Kir i said at that time.

I currently would prefer to play 2-3 characters so i can enjoy the game. (i even tried for 1 hour as i stated)

I may be able to with more effort achieve the same outcome with a shaman. I may not have the time to find that out. I will try however.

Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: DCPTY1986 on July 25, 2013, 02:41:07 PM
2 wipes ago i was part of BSP who attacked OXEN who ran 10 mans all day and all night without stopping.  I would end up having to sacrifice sleep and wake up at 3 AM just to enjoy 1 or 2 zones before I had to go to work.  I would literally sit in IRC for hours on end chatting with the 2 other U.S. BSP players.  I then was approached by a fellow BSP who was very knowledgable in triggers/scripting, so we decided to go ahead and give it a try.  I have never had so much fun leveling a 10 man group by myself and not having to rely on others.  I'm not saying that having a 10 man group of real people isn't fun, but being able to go into high end zones by yourself I found very challeging and just as fun.  Mass ripping was the extremely fun and it happened a lot.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: btown on July 25, 2013, 02:46:06 PM
this entire thread has made me want to quit.  worthless .  wtf u deleting all my post and not the ones i am replying to that are directed at me?  im out
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 02:59:16 PM
@btown: if you could stay on topic, your posts wouldn't have been deleted. You instead, turned the thread into a personal dick slapping competition with others. I wanted to keep the thread clean of any flames and off topic posts so that we can follow the thread.
Title: Re: Another bot thread, Hoss and Aristox please read
Post by: gulca on July 25, 2013, 03:03:03 PM
Just imagine the following scenario.

You quit Arctic for a couple of years due to RL.

Now you have some time, maybe a couple of hours on a Saturday night. You log onto the mud, create a char and type who. 10 players. Know none of them. You log off.

If botting and char sharing are allowed,

You log onto mud, create a char and type who. You find 90 chars on who list. You shout 'anyone remember me?". Get 2 - 3 tells and exchanged some whatsup. They tell you, "hey lets zone. What do you wanna play? Log in as Mumu and here is the password."

So you get 2 hrs of fun with old friends, chatting and fragging mobs away as a legend char.

Will you come back for more next week? Will you over stay 2 more hours each week? Who knows.
Title: Re: State of the Bot Address
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2013, 03:08:01 PM
Forum software is a little limited in the 'merge' area. Please redirect posts, on the SOBA thread here: http://arcticmud.org/forums/index.php/topic,271.0.html