Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jorake on October 11, 2020, 03:47:41 PM

Title: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on October 11, 2020, 03:47:41 PM
I was thinking of what things I would change on the mud that wouldn't take a lot of coding and would make a huge difference to the people who like to play strong and then let it balance out with real life again; instead of just quitting.

1. No limit +1 stat items: I would make pretty much any item that is just a single +1 stat INCLUDING damroll no limit; at least from certain zones. Who cares if everyone and their brother has a pair of carved dragon claw rings. Or barbed wire boots. I mean really. It would mean there is always something loading in almost every zone. Which would make people put in more time. I doubt it would have any severe impact on the game really.

2. Take away coin cost to rent: This would be really nice. Hell, i would just make it so nolimit eq doesn't even cost to rent, if anything. There have been times when I was like "man I'm getting sorta burnt out. I guess I'll take a break" Maybe i wanted to break for 2-3 weeks. That means the constant grinding i put in before those 2-3 weeks gear wise is for nothing. Or maybe I don't have enough cash to take a 2-3 week break. SO I just end up dropping all of my shit and usually Rich picks it up!

3. Decay items: This isn't the most important one for me. But it certainly is for some people. I've come to the understanding and made my peace with the fact that I'm gonna lose eq. This goes back to the break thing. Take something like.. Idk. Holy talisman and belt from bluff? Maybe. Just whatever low load rate item. I pretty much dont even care anymore when I do play. If i lose something I just go look for other shit to pop instead. Because I don't want to sit around the same zone for 6 hours that day trying to get my shit back. It drives me insane. SO i just don't do it anymore. It'll get a proper locate and then if its not up. I'm over it.

4. Spell loads: This one.. Well I just think that spell loads should be way more frequent. Again. Who cares if 45 people have acid mist or their black robe relocates or their red robe mirror images. I mean. Really. When someone gets these spells; they get super excited to use them. They have this rush and it makes them want to play more. It makes them think about "What can I do with this character now that I couldn't do before" And is it so game breaking if more people had these spells? Fact is, not everyone will have or have the chance to get prism/power word stun/nightmare etc etc. Those books will still be top tier and unless you got a buddy who hooks you up... I would also make more spells guild spells. You have to go find a tablet for paralyze? That lvl 30 or whatever guild teacher can't teach you this spell? Ice storm is out of their realm of knowledge? Maybe make it a quest or something in solace but it is not gaming breaking if some of these lower tier spells are made guild spells.

5. Additional characters: I haven't even logged in for a while. But the last time I did log in there were 7 people on. Of different clans. I think Corey mentioned this in another thread, but I'll touch on it again. Playing 2 characters 90% of the time is more than enough. Yes you are relegated to playing a shaman/druid/cleric + whatever else most of the time to do anything worth doing. I didn't do it this wipe but last wipe i did Glymmer with just my shaman/paladin and a fair amount of prep. I do think that upping the limit to possibly 4 or whatever would make a difference in the slow time. It would open up a lot more options when the numbers are just to low to do anything worth doing. Or if you don't want to spend 2-3 hours in a zone trying to be super careful. This would also go with the no limit eq idea. If alot of the gear was no limit then it wouldn't just have this major vacuum on a few elite players multis.

6. Class Item sets: I wanted this to be its own thing. Item sets at the very least should be no limit. It would be a great way for people coming back or joining mid wipe or whatever to get into the game. Again, it would not break the game if there were 15 scout sets in the game. I would also make these never decay. Or have a huge timer. As it stands, you load 6 pieces of whatever class set and then you lose 1 piece. depending on the set piece its hard to get back for a casual player.

Anyhow those are just some Sunday morning thoughts.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Malthros on October 11, 2020, 09:25:01 PM
1.  Agreed.  sure the floor for gear goes up a lot but you're still going to have a gap between people running around with 5-6 dam vs people running around with 15-20, and people who DT or whatever can hit zones to regear and go back to harder zones.
2.  This and/or rank purchases resetting on reincarnation being removed would be nice.  Rent decay would need to change (make deeprenting decay faster, for example) for good items though.  Not that I imagine too many people deadbeat dragon orbs or similar gear.
3.  This is tricky.  Nolim stuff never decaying would be fine but the good stuff has to decay at a varied length to give others a chance to load it.  Wouldn't solve for people actively fooming items to force a repop when they know they'll have the bodies for it but the feeling of "ok these items decayed today so we need to do x" is more than just a matter of design.  Removing decays for all nolim items would help (until those items frag anyways) but for any good gear repopping it is just how the game works.
4.  All spell loads should work like cleric and shaman spells do (and druid tabs did last wipe):  If you see spell book X in Location Y it is spell Z.  It'd be nice if you could work towards specific non-quest spells (except maybe PWS and the big 3 aoes), even if it meant bringing other spellbooks to a mob to research the target spell or whatever.  On the upside, spells can't decay (since that awful sheaf system is long dead) so once you learn it you don't have to worry about reloading it if you reincarnate or DT or whatever.
5.  Up the limit to 4 and you'll see a handful of people who can and will solo 99% of the MUD.  Sure, not as much of an issue if paired with more nolim gear but if they allow 4 they might as well allow 8 when a wipe is winding down (and definitely only allow 2 at most early in a wipe).  I know if I could run a 3rd character it'd open a lot of options that aren't as viable (or are just dangerous) on 2.  With 4 it'd be even moreso and playing 3-4 characters manually is entirely doable with proper macros built for multi-window inputs.
6.  Pretty sure class sets are nolimit.  Stuff like blue general being nolimit would be handy for sure but I can understand why they aren't.  It wouldn't break the game but I think we'd end up with more mob HP bloat or something at the high end to compensate for the higher floor that people could sit at.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 11, 2020, 09:59:57 PM
Or just remove item limits entirely. The biggest argument that I've seen against it is something along the lines of: "I want to feel special, and having this item that no one else has makes me special." But, in reality, it doesn't make you special. If ten people know how to load a limit one item, and it loads on the sixth run, the first five people are just unlucky. It doesn't make the sixth person better at the game, and it doesn't make them special. It makes the first five people annoyed that they ran a zone and what they wanted didn't load.

The only ACTUAL argument against it is something to the effect of: "We don't want a group of seven people with Wyrmslayer and a curer running around beating up on dragons." Or the similar ideas with similar items. However, there is a way around this as well. There already exists a UNIQUE flag in the game. It wouldn't be very difficult to expand this flag to check the group. If one person has Wyrmslayer wielded, and another person in the same group wields it, both items are immediately placed in the inventory of the characters. This way, if you're JUST at the level of being able to kill a certain dragon, you don't have to wait for the ONE person in the whole world who has Wyrmslayer (who may or may not have a job/family/life_outside_Arctic) to be able to log on to either pass it off or join the group. It makes the people who have worked out how to load the fun items the ability to load them with something other than dumb luck of locating or running a zone at the right time dictating the chances.

As for the game breaking items (hastes/nobashes/dragon orbs), if you cannot bear the idea of removing them from the game, leave them limited. Let those few people who need to feel special battle with each other for them, while the rest of the players continues to not care about them at all.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Willoe on October 12, 2020, 02:15:37 AM
I like a lot of this thread. As for people running around with 7 wyrmslayers...who cares? Make new harder content that needs 7 wyrmslayers.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: reed23 on October 12, 2020, 06:25:05 PM
1.  I would like the lims on certain items upped, but don't agree with making all gear unlimited.  The example of barbed wire boots i don't agree with.  There is so much gear in the game that i think it would do a disservice to the game in its entirety if everyone ran around with 12 dam that was popped from unlimited items from Storms, Irda, Bluff, and Ancient.  There are so many ways to build really good sets, especially with the huge bonuses from 4-6 item sets that are very available and easy to pop on 2-4 man groups.  If you want to go down this route, just have everyone start off with a Chaos bag at lvl 1 and a shrine at the Solace [] that teaches casters all spells on demand.
2.  I agree with upping spell loads.  I think this should be tiered.  Lower level spells should be 50%+ load rate, and then scale the percentage down as the spells get to the upper tiers.  But, for example, i don't see a problem if the Irda cleric book load rate was 25%-33%, or if the upper mage spells (outside of the prism book) loaded at that same rate.
3.  Reincarnate skills should come back "much faster" as this is advertised.  They currently don't come back much faster at all IMO.  When i re-legended my barb this wipe, it took me 6 days for my breach skill to go from excellent to superb.  6 hours is still too long IMO if this is the 2nd time around at grinding skills.
4.  Increase group sizes back to 10.
5.  I'm not a big fan of increasing char limits from 2 to 4.  You can do so much on 2, and it promotes grouping/clans to do end-game material.  And only requires 3-4 people to build a legit group.
6.  Change legend punch to have a different effect.  Disorienting big mobs is a great way for casters to get 1 rounded, and i think this is actually a negative effect.
7.  I'd like to see acid mist and equivalent other robe area spells return to their glory days.  Mages are 100% useless before they get stun in groups.  They need some major love to return to the premier class that they always were in arctic's early days.  Also, this goes back to increasing group sizes back to 10 (i've posted previously on this), but with a group lim of only 8, your group builds itself out automatically and there isn't much room for other utility classes - you need a tank, cleric, druid, shaman, couple bashers/dps to do end game material.  There isn't room for thiefs, mages, scouts, mages, etc. normally speaking.  Increasing the group lim to 10 would enhance these misc classes and allow room for them to get into groups.
8.  Increase PK % dam done to something reasonable.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on October 12, 2020, 07:54:23 PM
I disagree with barb wire boots from your post. And i did not say all gear unlimited. I said any gear that is +1 stat. Sure maybe make some exceptions for like barbed wire boots ok. But the point is. Once the wipe has been on for 3-4 weeks if that; so much SO much gear is snagged. So you can run 4-5 zones and maybe get 3 items from them. That is bapting insane, and it also makes people not want to do those zones. When i played earlier in the wipe I did a zone run. pax, hct, dunmir, storms, luni. Did those zones one right after another. I think we ended up getting 1 book, and maybe 6 "ok" items. Those included like 2 items from noom. Nothing major loaded in those zones when we did them. Which means we spent 5.5 hours in a group for nothing but coins/exp/ranks. Pretty heart breaking.

Again, not all eq should be nolimit. But spiked wrist bucklers, carved dragon claw rings, whatever else. Not executioners hood. But some other item.

Why would it bother you so much if a group of casual folks walked around with 7-8dam on their characters from nolimit eq?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: corey on October 12, 2020, 08:50:11 PM
I disagree with barb wire boots from your post. And i did not say all gear unlimited. I said any gear that is +1 stat. Sure maybe make some exceptions for like barbed wire boots ok. But the point is. Once the wipe has been on for 3-4 weeks if that; so much SO much gear is snagged. So you can run 4-5 zones and maybe get 3 items from them. That is bapting insane, and it also makes people not want to do those zones. When i played earlier in the wipe I did a zone run. pax, hct, dunmir, storms, luni. Did those zones one right after another. I think we ended up getting 1 book, and maybe 6 "ok" items. Those included like 2 items from noom. Nothing major loaded in those zones when we did them. Which means we spent 5.5 hours in a group for nothing but coins/exp/ranks. Pretty heart breaking.

Again, not all eq should be nolimit. But spiked wrist bucklers, carved dragon claw rings, whatever else. Not executioners hood. But some other item.

Why would it bother you so much if a group of casual folks walked around with 7-8dam on their characters from nolimit eq?

In all honesty, I don't even see a problem with 6 huma shields running around. It's a PvE game now and limit items are making you combat a system that also involved PvP. Let's be real - that game is behind us. Who cares if there are 5 dragon orbs, 3 robes of darkness, 7 onyx shields in the game. You can't really kill anyone so does it really matter?

Not to mention with ranks and medals everyone is basically autohaste immune blind etc etc anyway so who cares
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 12, 2020, 08:59:36 PM
Let's be real - that game is behind us.

This is the reality of the game. The PK aspect is gone, and, for the most part, no one even minds. The idea of having set up battles is fun, but, getting jumped and losing everything when you simply don't have the time or resources to get it back is just dumb, and it actively drives people away from the game. There are a few people who continue to talk about getting PK back to the way it was, and they are fairly loud, but, they are very few.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Willoe on October 13, 2020, 03:58:10 AM
Agree with Corey. If anything it evens the playing field so that anyone can get the best gear. It also opens up to ability to maybe create some even harder zones that require that level of gear to challenge the player base.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Patpat on October 13, 2020, 04:11:11 AM
I'd be interested in playing a wipe with all gear nolim.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Malthros on October 13, 2020, 04:49:38 AM
7.  I'd like to see acid mist and equivalent other robe area spells return to their glory days.  Mages are 100% useless before they get stun in groups.  They need some major love to return to the premier class that they always were in arctic's early days.  Also, this goes back to increasing group sizes back to 10 (i've posted previously on this), but with a group lim of only 8, your group builds itself out automatically and there isn't much room for other utility classes - you need a tank, cleric, druid, shaman, couple bashers/dps to do end game material.  There isn't room for thiefs, mages, scouts, mages, etc. normally speaking.  Increasing the group lim to 10 would enhance these misc classes and allow room for them to get into groups.

Clerics are largely irrelevant once druids and shamans are spelled up and you have a buff tank(which isn’t hard, just time consuming for reincarnates and medal farming).  Remove their ability to contribute dps via animate and they would be less useful in a strong group than a thief or non-stunner mage because cloud/regen/wave and a heal boosted tank is really dam powerful. 

Mages have their uses without stun, a white robe constantly transferring globe+fireshield is damn convenient, but it’s telling that a sizeable portion of long term dmg from them actually comes from their pets that can doUnless annihilate when ranked for damage.

Group size of 10 might see more mages or thieves in a group but realistically you’re going to probably get another basher, dk, paladin, or maybe a second Druid/shaman. Or a pair of mages if you’re doing something like void.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Willoe on October 13, 2020, 05:25:07 PM
Also if want to "limit" the number of players that have items...Make the best items very low %. Only those dedicated to spamming the hell out of it will be rewarded. No reason to have a hard limit. Would be awesome to have a chance of loading anything when you run zones, gives people a reason to do them as opposed to having items be maxxed or chasing decays.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on October 13, 2020, 07:32:18 PM
I think limited items can be increased, but not unlimited. Additional chars? No thanks.

All I want to see are spells loading more.  In the last week I've checked healing cloud close to 50 times with 0 loads. Now that's me spamming mobs that I know load it. Imagine a newb druid who has no idea how to load that spell. I'm being burned out just trying to get this spell now, I can't even think of how that poor guy is going to feel not even knowing how to get it.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on October 13, 2020, 07:51:37 PM
no limit items!  lets do it!  id even be pretty happy about item limits just being increased. 

there are so many fun items in the game that most people never get to see.  i had gramms ancient green sword for like a month many years ago and it was sooo fun.  then over the next 12 years i continue to check, but never have seen it again.  that is so sad.  i bet there are dozens of other super cool item loads that i walk past all the time.  but to me they are just mobs that load nothing because any good items have permanent owners.





Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Gnua on October 14, 2020, 06:03:02 AM
If ten people know how to load a limit one item, and it loads on the sixth run, the first five people are just unlucky. It doesn't make the sixth person better at the game, and it doesn't make them special.

The difference between luck and skill comes when they item decays.  The lucky newb is unlikely to be able to repop it.  The clan fodder has a better chance.  The lazy leader has a strong chance.  The dedicated leader will successfully repop unless they get unlucky.  so the gear tends to trickle up over time into the top active leaders this way.  it may be a crapshoot amongst the top active leaders, but below the top level of play skill and persistence play a much bigger role than luck.

i used to have 4 shamanable npp spread around my 4 active characters.  now i'm down to one shamanable npp because i dont defend my decays very well.  i'm actually not sure what will happen first:  being unable to repop my npp, getting lucky and popping a different one, pwipe, getting 8 spare ranks.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on October 14, 2020, 03:44:57 PM
Would love some feedback from higher level immortals on this.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: corey on October 14, 2020, 04:09:30 PM
Or just remove item limits entirely. The biggest argument that I've seen against it is something along the lines of: "I want to feel special, and having this item that no one else has makes me special." But, in reality, it doesn't make you special. If ten people know how to load a limit one item, and it loads on the sixth run, the first five people are just unlucky. It doesn't make the sixth person better at the game, and it doesn't make them special. It makes the first five people annoyed that they ran a zone and what they wanted didn't load.

The only ACTUAL argument against it is something to the effect of: "We don't want a group of seven people with Wyrmslayer and a curer running around beating up on dragons." Or the similar ideas with similar items. However, there is a way around this as well. There already exists a UNIQUE flag in the game. It wouldn't be very difficult to expand this flag to check the group. If one person has Wyrmslayer wielded, and another person in the same group wields it, both items are immediately placed in the inventory of the characters. This way, if you're JUST at the level of being able to kill a certain dragon, you don't have to wait for the ONE person in the whole world who has Wyrmslayer (who may or may not have a job/family/life_outside_Arctic) to be able to log on to either pass it off or join the group. It makes the people who have worked out how to load the fun items the ability to load them with something other than dumb luck of locating or running a zone at the right time dictating the chances.

As for the game breaking items (hastes/nobashes/dragon orbs), if you cannot bear the idea of removing them from the game, leave them limited. Let those few people who need to feel special battle with each other for them, while the rest of the players continues to not care about them at all.

You're wrong about the luck thing. There's a reason the best players keep their items.

I don't understand why it would matter if a group ran around with 3 Wyrmslayers. Who gives a shit. If gear is unlimited, you're not competing against anyone else anyway
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Bro on October 14, 2020, 04:52:59 PM
I was thinking of what things I would change on the mud that wouldn't take a lot of coding and would make a huge difference to the people who like to play strong and then let it balance out with real life again; instead of just quitting.

1. No limit +1 stat items: I would make pretty much any item that is just a single +1 stat INCLUDING damroll no limit; at least from certain zones. Who cares if everyone and their brother has a pair of carved dragon claw rings. Or barbed wire boots. I mean really. It would mean there is always something loading in almost every zone. Which would make people put in more time. I doubt it would have any severe impact on the game really.

2. Take away coin cost to rent: This would be really nice. Hell, i would just make it so nolimit eq doesn't even cost to rent, if anything. There have been times when I was like "man I'm getting sorta burnt out. I guess I'll take a break" Maybe i wanted to break for 2-3 weeks. That means the constant grinding i put in before those 2-3 weeks gear wise is for nothing. Or maybe I don't have enough cash to take a 2-3 week break. SO I just end up dropping all of my shit and usually Rich picks it up!

3. Decay items: This isn't the most important one for me. But it certainly is for some people. I've come to the understanding and made my peace with the fact that I'm gonna lose eq. This goes back to the break thing. Take something like.. Idk. Holy talisman and belt from bluff? Maybe. Just whatever low load rate item. I pretty much dont even care anymore when I do play. If i lose something I just go look for other shit to pop instead. Because I don't want to sit around the same zone for 6 hours that day trying to get my shit back. It drives me insane. SO i just don't do it anymore. It'll get a proper locate and then if its not up. I'm over it.

4. Spell loads: This one.. Well I just think that spell loads should be way more frequent. Again. Who cares if 45 people have acid mist or their black robe relocates or their red robe mirror images. I mean. Really. When someone gets these spells; they get super excited to use them. They have this rush and it makes them want to play more. It makes them think about "What can I do with this character now that I couldn't do before" And is it so game breaking if more people had these spells? Fact is, not everyone will have or have the chance to get prism/power word stun/nightmare etc etc. Those books will still be top tier and unless you got a buddy who hooks you up... I would also make more spells guild spells. You have to go find a tablet for paralyze? That lvl 30 or whatever guild teacher can't teach you this spell? Ice storm is out of their realm of knowledge? Maybe make it a quest or something in solace but it is not gaming breaking if some of these lower tier spells are made guild spells.

5. Additional characters: I haven't even logged in for a while. But the last time I did log in there were 7 people on. Of different clans. I think Corey mentioned this in another thread, but I'll touch on it again. Playing 2 characters 90% of the time is more than enough. Yes you are relegated to playing a shaman/druid/cleric + whatever else most of the time to do anything worth doing. I didn't do it this wipe but last wipe i did Glymmer with just my shaman/paladin and a fair amount of prep. I do think that upping the limit to possibly 4 or whatever would make a difference in the slow time. It would open up a lot more options when the numbers are just to low to do anything worth doing. Or if you don't want to spend 2-3 hours in a zone trying to be super careful. This would also go with the no limit eq idea. If alot of the gear was no limit then it wouldn't just have this major vacuum on a few elite players multis.

6. Class Item sets: I wanted this to be its own thing. Item sets at the very least should be no limit. It would be a great way for people coming back or joining mid wipe or whatever to get into the game. Again, it would not break the game if there were 15 scout sets in the game. I would also make these never decay. Or have a huge timer. As it stands, you load 6 pieces of whatever class set and then you lose 1 piece. depending on the set piece its hard to get back for a casual player.

Anyhow those are just some Sunday morning thoughts.


Would love some feedback from higher level immortals on this.

I'm not a higher level immortal, and I don't currently have much more information that any other player would have. That said, the game is fighting 2 battles. One is the inherent power creep. The group limit being reduced over time is one way to combat this. Lots of things have lead to power creep in the game. Most recently reincarnation, but most frequent is new creation content with high end fancy items. So while the staff wants to manage the power creep curve, creators want to make cooler items then ever before. I am very much on board for thinking of cool ideas to manage equipment and the decay cycle/system, as to me this is both the most fun part of the game (something cool loaded!) and the least fun part of the game (managing decays, especially when I can't always manage my play times). Step 1 of any solution is outlining how you want something to be. You've mostly done this step. The next step is outlining how to accomplish this in a cohesive system that works for the game. While you have numbered 6 things, 1,2,3,4,6 all are specifically related to character power. The problem with making things too easy, is no one will care to bother playing the game. If there is ZERO challenge, why play? It's a glorified chat room and will quickly die. So you can't just make the most elite items (wyrmslayer etc) unlimited, make acid mist and stun guild. You'll start with numbers that you now have in the late wipe and probably maintain those few, but you'll have lost many people who like the challenge. Now, this isn't an all or nothing scenario. We can think of ways to make elements of this work. It may be possible to have more than 1 of traditionally limit 1 items, but not make it unlimited. But you still have to find a way to manage the balance of the overall game and what that does for early game / mid game / late game content. This leads into the 2nd battle the game itself is fighting. Keeping players/characters motivated to keep playing. If you make things too easy and make 2/3 of the game trivial, it isn't enjoyable for anyone and just serves to make it an unnecessary grind. When offering big types of changes, try to think of ways to implement it for the entire playerbase, not just your experience, and from a standpoint of keeping the game challenging while still providing a carrot (reason to play, strive to play more) for players to keep playing. Currently the carrot is trying to get limit 1 items or rare spells, or highest rank achievable, but there are other ways to implement the carrot. I think this administration is very receptive to ideas, but they need to be nuanced and seriously thought out to be considered.

Regarding your #5, playing more characters. I can say I personally don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. A good many people don't want more then 2 right now. For me, one of the things I miss most about "old" Arctic is how the social part of the game has significantly decreased. There's less shout communications / fun shenanigans going on, and very rarely do you ever see random pick up groups occurring. Adding more characters per player reduces this even more.

Just my feedback. Again, I'm not a high level imm and I don't know much more than anyone else posting in this thread, but I bet I'm right. If you want actual feedback, you need to post more detailed thoughts on how each of your suggestions would be implemented and the effects it would have on the game itself, other players. If you make an earnest effort to do that, you'll get a higher immortal's attention and either public or private feedback. I can promise you they are interested in hearing complete concepts about gear / spells / power creep. Posting a wishlist of things you want is nice and has generated some excellent discussion, but we need to get at least a step further if there's any hope for implementation.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 14, 2020, 07:38:41 PM

You're wrong about the luck thing. There's a reason the best players keep their items.

I don't understand why it would matter if a group ran around with 3 Wyrmslayers. Who gives a shit. If gear is unlimited, you're not competing against anyone else anyway

I'm talking about getting an item, not keeping it. If Wyrmslayer decays in rent, and run Pax at the right time, I get Wyrmslayer. That's my good luck, your bad luck. It doesn't make me better at the game. Keeping an item is a combination of dedication, having people on your side who can load an item if you are unable to for whatever reason, and to a lesser degree, cheating. (I'm fairly sure that destroying an item when you have time to reload it was decided as abusing games mechanics at one point) You can't "keep" an item you never had.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on October 14, 2020, 07:51:26 PM
A good post by Bro tackling the real issue. People suggest things up and down without leaving people wondering "what is the imm staff doing, these are all great ideas!"  but that's the problem, they are just ideas people have. Sure, I have a ton of ideas that I think would be great for the game. In order to even have a chance of any of them being considered, I would want to do as much of the work as possible so the imm's don't have to come up with the solution.   

For spell loads: I think more overall spells should load on a variety of 'new' mobs that haven't loaded them before. Once we pass the halfway point of the wipe, perhaps the % could increase by 25% to allow more people a chance at these spells for their alts. Mainly, when there's fewer and fewer people playing, it can be difficult to round up a posse to load these spells. So when they actually do find the time to run it and it doesn't load, well, that sucks.

If you came up with a list of items that could possibly get their limit increased, that's something to go off of.

Each nobash has their limit increased to 2
Wyrmslayer has its limit increased to 2
Nightbringer's limit increased to 2
A holy talisman limit increased to 4
An amulet of darkness limit increased to 6
Gauntlets of abyssal might limit increased to 3

And as most people have said, definitely a no on the amount of characters a player can play at once.

Just meet the imms in the middle and help them out by coming up with some good, quality discussions and solutions.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on October 14, 2020, 09:23:51 PM
I agree with Bro’s post as well. In the current state of Arctic, all you need is legend characters and a set with decent bonuses and you can do all content in the game as long as you pop your dps some +dams. I can think of at least one set thats easy locate thats +4 dams. With ranks and 28 str, +10 dam is easily attainable without any hardships endured. I have been playing the game casually for about 1 to 2 months with basically two naked characters in a group of players who are all basically naked and we can do whatever content we want at the moment. If limit one items became unlimited, The game would just be far too easy. And a game that is that easy is like reading a book in which you already know the ending. I’m not going to sit through 1000 pages of reading when I already know exactly what’s going to happen. That doesn’t interest me. If I wanted easy I would go play World of Warcraft where the only investment you need is time to be elite.

I do however agree with Jorakes point that spell loads are Absurdly low and makes the process of legending caster classes far too dependent on RNG. Im personally a fan of skill/intelligence over RNG.

I also agree in part that certain sets should be unlimited and relatively easy to pop. I like to think of them as ‘starter sets’ in which if you dt or get pked, you can get a decent set quickly instead of just being screwed over and quit. Ive recommended to imms to bring back the sharkskin set. Maybe armaboro should load 2-3 pieces instead of 1 per run. Maybe the ivory set should load more frequently. That way the staff can help the players at the bottom or returning players without adding to the power creep.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: corey on October 14, 2020, 09:48:08 PM
A good post by Bro tackling the real issue. People suggest things up and down without leaving people wondering "what is the imm staff doing, these are all great ideas!"  but that's the problem, they are just ideas people have. Sure, I have a ton of ideas that I think would be great for the game. In order to even have a chance of any of them being considered, I would want to do as much of the work as possible so the imm's don't have to come up with the solution.   

For spell loads: I think more overall spells should load on a variety of 'new' mobs that haven't loaded them before. Once we pass the halfway point of the wipe, perhaps the % could increase by 25% to allow more people a chance at these spells for their alts. Mainly, when there's fewer and fewer people playing, it can be difficult to round up a posse to load these spells. So when they actually do find the time to run it and it doesn't load, well, that sucks.

If you came up with a list of items that could possibly get their limit increased, that's something to go off of.

Each nobash has their limit increased to 2
Wyrmslayer has its limit increased to 2
Nightbringer's limit increased to 2
A holy talisman limit increased to 4
An amulet of darkness limit increased to 6
Gauntlets of abyssal might limit increased to 3

And as most people have said, definitely a no on the amount of characters a player can play at once.

Just meet the imms in the middle and help them out by coming up with some good, quality discussions and solutions.

This upped item limit doesn't really solve any issues. One clan now has 6 nobashes instead of 3. Chris keeps 4 spare amulets of darkness rented instead of x. I keep two Wyrmslayers in my girdle instead of one.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on October 14, 2020, 10:55:25 PM
You could all stop being greedy little goblins too. I don't ever see the point in keeping stuff rented when someone could potentially use the item. You could trade items to other clans for items you want. You could sell them. You could donate them to some newb. It's exactly reasons like that that people get discouraged and annoyed at the current equipment system. People like you hoard all the gear on your alts and nothing loads so they don't see the point in playing. I get that you like to flex that you rent your wyrmslayer and shadowbane in your girdle, but that's only making you look like a tool.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: reed23 on October 14, 2020, 11:08:27 PM
I now know why Biden is about to be the POTUS.  Just read this thread.  Good luck everyone!
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: corey on October 14, 2020, 11:12:19 PM
You could all stop being greedy little goblins too. I don't ever see the point in keeping stuff rented when someone could potentially use the item. You could trade items to other clans for items you want. You could sell them. You could donate them to some newb. It's exactly reasons like that that people get discouraged and annoyed at the current equipment system. People like you hoard all the gear on your alts and nothing loads so they don't see the point in playing. I get that you like to flex that you rent your wyrmslayer and shadowbane in your girdle, but that's only making you look like a tool.

I only kept 1.5 geared characters at any one time. I used different weapons for different situations so I don't see the issue
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 14, 2020, 11:18:39 PM
You could all stop being greedy little goblins too. I don't ever see the point in keeping stuff rented when someone could potentially use the item. You could trade items to other clans for items you want. You could sell them. You could donate them to some newb. It's exactly reasons like that that people get discouraged and annoyed at the current equipment system. People like you hoard all the gear on your alts and nothing loads so they don't see the point in playing. I get that you like to flex that you rent your wyrmslayer and shadowbane in your girdle, but that's only making you look like a tool.

Or... You could remove the item limits. Then it doesn't matter what Corey or anyone else does in regards to hoarding. Ilya and Corey have, historically speaking, LONG been known/disliked for their hoarding of eq and information. Why are they my biggest allies in the desire to take the eq hoarding away from them? The bottom line is that Corey isn't doing anything illegal, or even wrong by hoarding eq. Rather than being in one clan when there were a bunch of people in it, it's now on a few people and their many alts, because less people that Corey plays with are actually playing. The net gain/loss of eq to the average player is zero. Removing item limits lets people who don't usually see eq see and use it. Right now, you can't even tell if you've solved something fun, because it's already gone, and it's likely to stay gone. That sucks, and is the sole reason I haven't even bothered to explore some of the new zones. Everything good is gone, so I don't even know if I've solved anything.

I agree with Bro’s post as well. In the current state of Arctic, all you need is legend characters and a set with decent bonuses and you can do all content in the game as long as you pop your dps some +dams. I can think of at least one set thats easy locate thats +4 dams. With ranks and 28 str, +10 dam is easily attainable without any hardships endured. I have been playing the game casually for about 1 to 2 months with basically two naked characters in a group of players who are all basically naked and we can do whatever content we want at the moment. If limit one items became unlimited, The game would just be far too easy. And a game that is that easy is like reading a book in which you already know the ending. I’m not going to sit through 1000 pages of reading when I already know exactly what’s going to happen. That doesn’t interest me. If I wanted easy I would go play World of Warcraft where the only investment you need is time to be elite.

I do however agree with Jorakes point that spell loads are Absurdly low and makes the process of legending caster classes far too dependent on RNG. Im personally a fan of skill/intelligence over RNG.

I also agree in part that certain sets should be unlimited and relatively easy to pop. I like to think of them as ‘starter sets’ in which if you dt or get pked, you can get a decent set quickly instead of just being screwed over and quit. Ive recommended to imms to bring back the sharkskin set. Maybe armaboro should load 2-3 pieces instead of 1 per run. Maybe the ivory set should load more frequently. That way the staff can help the players at the bottom or returning players without adding to the power creep.

This viewpoint confuses me. One one hand, you're saying that all you need is time to become elite (being able to do whatever content you want definitely counts as being "elite"), then, in that same hand, you're saying that you wouldn't play if all you needed to invest was time... If you can do whatever content you want with the trash items you say you have, then what difference does it make if you have the fun items, too?



I'm not a higher level immortal, and I don't currently have much more information that any other player would have. That said, the game is fighting 2 battles. One is the inherent power creep. The group limit being reduced over time is one way to combat this. Lots of things have lead to power creep in the game. Most recently reincarnation, but most frequent is new creation content with high end fancy items. So while the staff wants to manage the power creep curve, creators want to make cooler items then ever before. I am very much on board for thinking of cool ideas to manage equipment and the decay cycle/system, as to me this is both the most fun part of the game (something cool loaded!) and the least fun part of the game (managing decays, especially when I can't always manage my play times). Step 1 of any solution is outlining how you want something to be. You've mostly done this step. The next step is outlining how to accomplish this in a cohesive system that works for the game. While you have numbered 6 things, 1,2,3,4,6 all are specifically related to character power. The problem with making things too easy, is no one will care to bother playing the game. If there is ZERO challenge, why play? It's a glorified chat room and will quickly die. So you can't just make the most elite items (wyrmslayer etc) unlimited, make acid mist and stun guild. You'll start with numbers that you now have in the late wipe and probably maintain those few, but you'll have lost many people who like the challenge. Now, this isn't an all or nothing scenario. We can think of ways to make elements of this work. It may be possible to have more than 1 of traditionally limit 1 items, but not make it unlimited. But you still have to find a way to manage the balance of the overall game and what that does for early game / mid game / late game content. This leads into the 2nd battle the game itself is fighting. Keeping players/characters motivated to keep playing. If you make things too easy and make 2/3 of the game trivial, it isn't enjoyable for anyone and just serves to make it an unnecessary grind. When offering big types of changes, try to think of ways to implement it for the entire playerbase, not just your experience, and from a standpoint of keeping the game challenging while still providing a carrot (reason to play, strive to play more) for players to keep playing. Currently the carrot is trying to get limit 1 items or rare spells, or highest rank achievable, but there are other ways to implement the carrot. I think this administration is very receptive to ideas, but they need to be nuanced and seriously thought out to be considered.

Regarding your #5, playing more characters. I can say I personally don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. A good many people don't want more then 2 right now. For me, one of the things I miss most about "old" Arctic is how the social part of the game has significantly decreased. There's less shout communications / fun shenanigans going on, and very rarely do you ever see random pick up groups occurring. Adding more characters per player reduces this even more.

Just my feedback. Again, I'm not a high level imm and I don't know much more than anyone else posting in this thread, but I bet I'm right. If you want actual feedback, you need to post more detailed thoughts on how each of your suggestions would be implemented and the effects it would have on the game itself, other players. If you make an earnest effort to do that, you'll get a higher immortal's attention and either public or private feedback. I can promise you they are interested in hearing complete concepts about gear / spells / power creep. Posting a wishlist of things you want is nice and has generated some excellent discussion, but we need to get at least a step further if there's any hope for implementation.



Personally (and I understand that this doesn't speak for everyone, or even the majority) I think you're wrong about the "carrot". To me, the goal is to enjoy solving zones, exploring places, and loading eq, whether or not I keep, sell, give away, or drain it. I don't care in the slightest if every single other person playing knows how to load every piece of eq from a zone I have not yet solved. My goal is to solve that zone, and enjoy doing it. If a zone loads nightmare and I need nightmare, I'd like to be able to do it. If I had nightmare, and that same zone loads nightmare again, I'll sell or give it away. I don't care who else has the spell, it doesn't affect me in the slightest. Same goes for eq. If I want to play by myself, or with my friends, it just doesn't matter who else has what. There is no pk, so the competition for equipment is just annoying. Corey has what he has, and no one is going to take it from him for a couple reasons. First, and foremost, he's good at pk. If you can kill him, you better believe he can kill you back. Second, it helps when Corey is bored and decides to use some of that eq to speed up zones for random groups. I know this, because he's been in mine a couple times. I'm not terribly interested in the social aspect of the game. I have a few people that I like playing with, but, being able to play by myself when/have the time to play is far more attractive. I shout for groups several times a week, and almost never get any responses. I play a tank/healer, know how to lead most of the zones in the game, rarely get lost or mass rip unless people aren't paying attention (another drawback of the social aspect of the game, people have lives, I do not) and there are a couple people who tell to me asking if I'm zoning and have room. That's it. The social aspect is playing with people you already play with.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on October 15, 2020, 12:32:21 AM
You say you enjoy solving and exploring zones, yet you can't be bothered to explore any new zones because the rewards aren't there. So which is it dude? Unlimited gear will be absolutely stupid for this game. Thankfully I know that will never happen.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 15, 2020, 01:01:52 AM
No, I said I won't enjoy it because I don't know if I've solved anything.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Willoe on October 15, 2020, 01:30:50 AM
Not sure why folks think unlimited gear is so bad. Removing limits doesn't mean making it easy to obtain. Make the %'s hard, these will be soft limits. Not every person may want to spam a zone dozens/hundreds of time to get the piece of eq they want, or possibly get lucky in their first few runs. The fact of the matter is that eq limits were put in place to ensure that one clan or group of players didn't get too strong due to PVP. Instead, now without PVP, we generally see 1-2 top clans get all of the elite EQ and then there is nothing left for anyone else. How great would it be to be able to run zones and actually know something MIGHT load. Instead you have zones that get run literally ONLY if someone needs a spell, ranks(maybe), or if something decays. Decays literally ruin the player experience. It is there to ensure EQ cycles but pisses people off when they lose their shiny. Lots of other games have been able to BUILD UP and create harder, more expansive dungeons/zones as they improve their baseline of power for their characters. Instead we continue to try and create NEW zones with the same power level...we flood the game with the same ass gear with a different name. Removing limits will do a few things:
1. Give more people access to the top end gear
2. Increase the baseline of character strength to allow for harder more challenging zones
3. Allow people to feel like they DON'T HAVE to log on to chase their decays/get pissed when they miss one. I know MANY that have quit due to this constant cycle/grind.
4. Allow for new interesting gear to be introduced to the game that isn't deemed "too powerful"

The pro's HEAVILY outway the con's. I really hope the staff consider this. Especially when one of the pro's is KEEPING players.

Anyway, not sure why I'm poking around, perhaps I miss some of you asshats...can't see myself coming back without some real change in this regard however. Wish ya'll well!

Willoe/Ilya
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Bro on October 15, 2020, 03:06:24 AM
Personally (and I understand that this doesn't speak for everyone, or even the majority) I think you're wrong about the "carrot". To me, the goal is to enjoy solving zones, exploring places, and loading eq, whether or not I keep, sell, give away, or drain it. I don't care in the slightest if every single other person playing knows how to load every piece of eq from a zone I have not yet solved. My goal is to solve that zone, and enjoy doing it. If a zone loads nightmare and I need nightmare, I'd like to be able to do it. If I had nightmare, and that same zone loads nightmare again, I'll sell or give it away. I don't care who else has the spell, it doesn't affect me in the slightest. Same goes for eq. If I want to play by myself, or with my friends, it just doesn't matter who else has what. There is no pk, so the competition for equipment is just annoying. Corey has what he has, and no one is going to take it from him for a couple reasons. First, and foremost, he's good at pk. If you can kill him, you better believe he can kill you back. Second, it helps when Corey is bored and decides to use some of that eq to speed up zones for random groups. I know this, because he's been in mine a couple times. I'm not terribly interested in the social aspect of the game. I have a few people that I like playing with, but, being able to play by myself when/have the time to play is far more attractive. I shout for groups several times a week, and almost never get any responses. I play a tank/healer, know how to lead most of the zones in the game, rarely get lost or mass rip unless people aren't paying attention (another drawback of the social aspect of the game, people have lives, I do not) and there are a couple people who tell to me asking if I'm zoning and have room. That's it. The social aspect is playing with people you already play with.

I'm the same way, I like to know how to do stuff, load what I want or friends want etc. But not everyone is wired the same, which is the entire point. Any suggested solution needs to think about the playerbase as a whole. If there are tradeoffs that need to be made to appease some players that prefer it one way or the other, it needs to be specified and understood.

Also, I agree the social aspect has turned mostly into playing with the people we already play with, but I came back last year after being away from the game for 6 years and didn't tell anyone I was playing and met a bunch of people who have been playing this game like i have for 25 years (some more, some less) that I had not encountered before. Just an interesting thing. I get not everyone is social, and usually I'm not either tbh, but because there are other people it makes the game interesting to me. If this was just me playing vs the game I'd quit pretty quick. Good luck to you, I have not noticed anyone constantly shouting for groups (though have seen some for sure), and the times I did I haven't had time to play, but maybe I'll catch up with you sometime and we can kill some mobiles and load some things!
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Malthros on October 15, 2020, 04:35:48 AM
And a game that is that easy is like reading a book in which you already know the ending. I’m not going to sit through 1000 pages of reading when I already know exactly what’s going to happen. That doesn’t interest me. If I wanted easy I would go play World of Warcraft where the only investment you need is time to be elite.

Spoiler: the good guys win, unless it’s some grim dark setting like wh40k. If you focus on the destination you miss out on the journey.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Vespin on October 15, 2020, 08:58:01 AM
re: gear decay

I have kept the same core set the entirety of this wipe on two characters.  with the exception of cyan items and robes of darkness, which i've had for about 3 months or so.  the only reasons i was able to do this are because of quarantine, and being willing to play an average of 18 hours/day for 9 months.  and having access to likeminded individuals with staggered playtimes.  this is absolutely unsustainable and if i had ANYTHING else to do, i would have left long ago.  I don't know how to fix this, but chasing endless decays is pretty bad. and the way the system is now, whoever has the most playtime will always win out, provided they have the knowledge to load the gear.  and we as a community seem to have become much less guarded about giving away game knowledge, so that isn't exactly a barrier.  i honestly don't even know the point of it...i mostly play for nostalgia's sake.  even with arguably one of the strongest thief sets ever assembled, i barely break 100 hp stabs on players.  so. it's not to compete.  it just feels like the objective is to prevent other people from having fun toys.  which sucks.  and sort of mirrors the pk mindset this game evolved into, which is "how do i make sure my enemy can never play in any capacity whatsoever."  i really dislike both of these looks for arctic, but i also don't think the answer is make all characters gods through unlimited gear.  it's a tough spot to be in.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Willoe on October 15, 2020, 03:46:18 PM
Re:Vespin

I think it's really a matter of perspective for "god chars". We are comparing characters against the current difficult of the game. If we start to use this as a  baseline and start to build up, then sure, god chars for storms, but storms chars will get smashed in new abc zone unless they have gear from blood shoal...You hit the nail on the head regarding current playtime. People have more time now than before to go chase decays, and it's not that they like doing it, but they have to. You reduce/take away the time availability(which will happen at some point), and how many people stop playing because they just say screw it?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Vespin on October 15, 2020, 07:32:19 PM
re: willoe

me. you're talking about me. screw it. i burned out.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on October 16, 2020, 08:11:09 PM
If limit one items became unlimited, The game would just be far too easy. And a game that is that easy is like reading a book in which you already know the ending. I’m not going to sit through 1000 pages of reading when I already know exactly what’s going to happen. That doesn’t interest me. If I wanted easy I would go play World of Warcraft where the only investment you need is time to be elite.


is this true?  the game is too easy with the strongest items?  core can surely log an 8 man group with top tier items.  are core quitting because it is too boring with their powerful gear?

maybe some of these items need a hard nerf?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Willoe on October 17, 2020, 10:09:06 PM
Just noticed that post from Kir. That's kind of funny...saying you don't want to play if you know whats going to load. Nothing loads when gear is maxxed...If gear is low % and unlimited, you don't know what will load when you run it. That's the whole point lol!
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 19, 2020, 05:14:08 PM

is this true?  the game is too easy with the strongest items?  core can surely log an 8 man group with top tier items.  are core quitting because it is too boring with their powerful gear?

maybe some of these items need a hard nerf?

This is a pretty good example of how item limits work and are viewed. Simply put, if having the strongest sets of eq made the game too easy, the top clans wouldn't fight so hard to keep them. Players quit because they are unable to maintain the sets of eq that make the game fun for them. Players quit because they are unable to obtain the items they want to obtain. Players quit because other players kill them and take away the items they want to keep... Players do not quit because the game is too easy, no matter the gear/rank sets you have. Having the opportunity to load the items you want makes running zones exciting, rather than disappointing. As long as the UNIQUE flag is expanded to cover a group, no one is actually gaining any more power than players already have right now. There is still only one of each limit_1 item in a group, as there already could be, and very often is. This raises the floor, not the ceiling. Running Cyan and Blood Shoal with a group of Cyan/Blazewight-geared characters and dragon killer items is already happening, and the players who are doing it don't quit after they do. The argument that the game will be too easy just doesn't have any evidence to support it, and loads of evidence to the contrary. I don't know how we're expected to make a more well developed argument for an idea without developed feedback. Saying, "I don't think it'll work." is no better than saying, "I think it will work.". Tell us why the things we want won't work. Tell us what is wrong with the ideas we have.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: corey on October 19, 2020, 10:32:28 PM

is this true?  the game is too easy with the strongest items?  core can surely log an 8 man group with top tier items.  are core quitting because it is too boring with their powerful gear?

maybe some of these items need a hard nerf?

This is a pretty good example of how item limits work and are viewed. Simply put, if having the strongest sets of eq made the game too easy, the top clans wouldn't fight so hard to keep them. Players quit because they are unable to maintain the sets of eq that make the game fun for them. Players quit because they are unable to obtain the items they want to obtain. Players quit because other players kill them and take away the items they want to keep... Players do not quit because the game is too easy, no matter the gear/rank sets you have. Having the opportunity to load the items you want makes running zones exciting, rather than disappointing. As long as the UNIQUE flag is expanded to cover a group, no one is actually gaining any more power than players already have right now. There is still only one of each limit_1 item in a group, as there already could be, and very often is. This raises the floor, not the ceiling. Running Cyan and Blood Shoal with a group of Cyan/Blazewight-geared characters and dragon killer items is already happening, and the players who are doing it don't quit after they do. The argument that the game will be too easy just doesn't have any evidence to support it, and loads of evidence to the contrary. I don't know how we're expected to make a more well developed argument for an idea without developed feedback. Saying, "I don't think it'll work." is no better than saying, "I think it will work.". Tell us why the things we want won't work. Tell us what is wrong with the ideas we have.

People definitely quit once they've won
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Bryton on October 20, 2020, 12:56:39 AM

is this true?  the game is too easy with the strongest items?  core can surely log an 8 man group with top tier items.  are core quitting because it is too boring with their powerful gear?

maybe some of these items need a hard nerf?

This is a pretty good example of how item limits work and are viewed. Simply put, if having the strongest sets of eq made the game too easy, the top clans wouldn't fight so hard to keep them. Players quit because they are unable to maintain the sets of eq that make the game fun for them. Players quit because they are unable to obtain the items they want to obtain. Players quit because other players kill them and take away the items they want to keep... Players do not quit because the game is too easy, no matter the gear/rank sets you have. Having the opportunity to load the items you want makes running zones exciting, rather than disappointing. As long as the UNIQUE flag is expanded to cover a group, no one is actually gaining any more power than players already have right now. There is still only one of each limit_1 item in a group, as there already could be, and very often is. This raises the floor, not the ceiling. Running Cyan and Blood Shoal with a group of Cyan/Blazewight-geared characters and dragon killer items is already happening, and the players who are doing it don't quit after they do. The argument that the game will be too easy just doesn't have any evidence to support it, and loads of evidence to the contrary. I don't know how we're expected to make a more well developed argument for an idea without developed feedback. Saying, "I don't think it'll work." is no better than saying, "I think it will work.". Tell us why the things we want won't work. Tell us what is wrong with the ideas we have.

People definitely quit once they've won

Thats why I quit, constantly winning gets boring.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on October 20, 2020, 04:42:22 PM
TL:DR Unlimited unique gear does not make me want to play more or longer.  It makes me want to play the same amount or less.

My issues with unlimited gear:

The major issue with unlimited gear is that it eliminates the necessity to rush.  For players like myself, the rush is one of the only exciting times playing Arctic.  It is for me one of the only points in the timeline of a player wipe that there is a competitive spirit like there used to be in this game.

But other players have even killed that experience for me.  They have opted out of the competitive spirit of the rush and the game entirely.  They want to play a game where they are not bothered, can do whatever they want when they want.  They sometimes threaten to quit if they are bothered too much because that's not why they play.

Exclusivity is also a draw for players like me.  It really is nice to have something that someone else doesn't have.  In my daily life, I like wearing clothes that I don't see other people wearing.  I like the feeling of knowing when I catch a huge fish that many people have not caught a fish that size before.  The experience has greater value to me due to exclusivity.

And yes, this will all come back to PK, because I do think that is the most exciting time in Arctic.  When something is exclusive and someone has something I want, I have to attempt to kill them to take it if I really want it that bad.  Another option is to trade something of equivalent value to them (game knowledge/other gear).

Why non-exclusive gear sucks to me:

A wipe with non-exclusive gear will have a definitive ending point for me.  I've made my set, I've killed the monsters I want to kill.  Why do I have any point of continuing?  I know I can do it all with the right group, the right prep, etc.  In fact, what's the point of even playing at all.  It would be like playing the same JRPG over and over and over again.  To me that's a waste of life.  There is nothing dynamic about that experience.  There are no question marks to that scenario.  I know what I want.  I know how to get it.  The only thing left to inject any competitiveness into the game for me in this scenario would be to attempt speed runs on end game mobs.  Is that what Arctic has come to?

Alternative proposed changes:

- Make all non-unique items unlimited and raise the load %.  This opens the game up for everyone, it removes the excuse that when I am PK'd - I cannot progress in the game. 

- Make all unique items 100% load, create a delay after decay function - when item decays it will not return to the game for a ranged period of 48-96 hours.  This decreases the chance a clan can monopolize the unique items.

- Make all unique items decay at the same time.  I know what you're gonna say, but I just killed Cyan and I only had this item for one day.  Well tough, now you know you're strong enough to kill Cyan and you know in the next few days there's going to be another rush for exclusive items.  Get out there and get some.

- Remove non-essential immortals (34 down) ability to determine whether these items are loading or not

Fix PK and make rewards for being good at it

Every change to PK over the last decade has been targeted at making it more difficult to kill someone.  This makes it even more likely for players to quit when exclusive items exist because eventually they hit their EQ wall and have no means of improving (in the games current form).  They can't kill the players with the equipment they want and they can kill all the mobiles they know.  I propose moving in the other direction.

- Improve targeted CC to prevent easy escape.  i.e. Hold Person/Monster/Para is now 100% land chance on players but only lasts 2 rounds.  Cannot be negated by AMS.

- Increase the Skill cap by improved blocking/counters.  Give characters abilities to brace for a melee characters CC or Arcane shell magic users CC - lasts 2 rounds/1 round lag/5 round cooldown.  If CC blocked, 1 additional round lag for opponent.  Text is not visible to other players so triggers are ineffective in determining when they are protected/vulnerable.

- Expand chances to fail so that escape mechanisms are not 100%. Or conversely take several rounds to channel.

- Remove the who list, Discord seems to be functional method for people to trade gear, interact with other players, find groups, seek help

- Remove hunt, it is rarely used for it's intended purpose, and more often used as a defensive get out of jail free card

Create PK Rank / Bounty system and determine effective ways of preventing abuse of the system.


Anyway, those are some of my ideas on how I think Arctic can improve.







Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: mikey on October 20, 2020, 05:53:07 PM
Eddiex's post is well written and interesting, but as a much less knowledgeable player, who's end game is DKO and Storm's Keep (when I want to lose all my gear and 3hrs of xp), I'm on the opposite side of the fence on most of it.

The Rush: The rush seems absolutely great for the few groups that can actually compete.  Full ranks (although that might be a thing of the past) and zones actually loading gear seem great!  When I "rush" on the first day of the wipe I find no equipment, no ranks, and about 90% of the zones done. Rush day is usually terrible! I always vow not to play in the first couple of weeks, but I rolled super low willpower IRL and can't stop myself. 

Exclusivity: I understand that it's fun, but how many players should get to have this kind of fun? Only 1 sky scout on the entire mud? Everyone else should roll something else?  I get that you are saying running the same zones becomes boring once you have the desired gear, but doesn't that happen anyway?  Especially if you "win" the rush, don't you get all your exclusive items right away? And then are bored? I must be missing something or not know the way it really works.
          I do want to say, I don't necessarily feel like the most exclusive items should be no limit.  I just feel like as it is, I could run greenen every hour for the entire wipe and I wouldn't see that sword and that seems wrong.

Alternative proposed changes: Yes please! Pretty please!

Fix PK: Please no.  As a noob my experiences with pk are all the same.  A single caster comes in mass CCs most of my group, and the others die in three rounds to AoE and pets.  Because someone was bored, or I grouped with the wrong guy, or I loaded a shiney that I shouldn't have, I'm out 3hrs of xp, all of my gear, and most of my desire to play.  By the end of the pkilling days, I wasn't even fighting back.  If I toss a heal or try a bash, I feel like I might as well delete that character and hope my alts don't get highlighted as well.  I'm a big supporter of the pk on/off flag at roll, which would make it so you can/can't pick up the "exclusive" gear.

I have many horrible insights as a low tier player.  Most of the time I read these forums and feel like we aren't even playing the same game.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on October 20, 2020, 06:18:38 PM
More pk changes I'd suggest is that lagged/cc'd/sitting characters cannot be transported via mass tele or prevailing winds.

As it stands now with players being able to use two chars: all I need is a legend pal and druid and a few bashmod ranks/items on said druid to have an automatic get out of jail free card for entire group.

Making recalls/mass escapes require channeling will ensure people can actually be killed in prolonged combat.

Also, make % fumble/destroy chance on all unique gear removal. The more times it's worn and removed, the greater chance it's fumbled and destroyed. This way people can't hide their gear on alts without risking losing it. Any gear repopped in this manner would still decay when every other unique item is wiped.


Mikey. I understand your concerns with pk. There are perhaps other ways to help mitigate the losses in a situation.

- Remove xp loss from pk death entirely or pre-lvl 30. Make unlimited equipment only lootable by the person who died.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Dafin on October 20, 2020, 08:03:20 PM
I am an immigrant from one unknown marginal MUD. In my first two months in Arctic on my way to 22 level my warrior shouted for group every day, got groupped once and pkilled twice by some casters for nothing. I regret I didn't multi then because it eventually was allowed. For some reason I decided to start honest life in a new MUD. But these first two months sucked. Total waste of time.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: corey on October 20, 2020, 11:30:54 PM
Eddie- They're not going to make pk easier. The playerbase is too old for the time commitment and bullshit attached. More people would quit from it than play from it.

I miss the old days too, but they're not coming back.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on October 21, 2020, 10:56:42 AM
Making it so lvl 34 and down imms can't see eq would be a huge change.

I never meant for all eq to be unlimited when I started the thread. I was basically saying the lower tier items. Easy to obtain +dam and such. 80% of weapons. Most +1stat items etc.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Willoe on October 21, 2020, 04:39:20 PM
I'll agree with Eddie that PK is broken and has been neglected. The fact of the matter is you have two groups of people:
1. People who want to pk, want it to be easier to kill people, and want a competitive aspect to the game.
2. People who are casual and want to do what they want to do when they want to do it without hinderance.

Solution:
For "WORLD" PVP make it so you can kill people easily HOWEVER no gear can be looted. CREATE an arena style PVP system where people can compete for possible prizes. Prizes can include exclusive titles(IE General, Warlord, etc.), and possible gear that can ONLY be obtained if you PVP. PVP gear should be competitive and based on the rank one holds. You can add other sorts of rewards to this system and it creates a more controlled PVP environment. You can still jack someone for being a douche however their gear is reserved for them.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on October 21, 2020, 07:59:53 PM
I like the arena idea. I would rather people put a piece of gear up though. Instead of winning gear prizes. Just you put up a piece. I put up a piece. Etc. Winner(s) take all
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 23, 2020, 02:25:12 AM
PK isn't broken, it was changed on purpose, because more people prefer it this way.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Willoe on October 23, 2020, 04:29:26 AM
Given that nobody PK's would imply that it is broken...There are plenty of people that would LOVE to pk if there was a better system in place.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on October 23, 2020, 03:30:03 PM
Eddie- They're not going to make pk easier. The playerbase is too old for the time commitment and bullshit attached. More people would quit from it than play from it.

I miss the old days
 too, but they're not coming back.

Yea, I know dude. Oh well. Just wanted to make some suggestions for changes that would make the game fun/interesting for me. Hope everyone who still plays enjoys their game and the updates/changes that do get implemented. I'll be fishing.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 23, 2020, 04:45:46 PM
Given that nobody PK's would imply that it is broken...There are plenty of people that would LOVE to pk if there was a better system in place.

Broken implies that it is not working as intended. And while I agree that there are plenty of people who would love to have a PvP aspect to the game (myself included), there are very few who want pk back. Let's not forget that there were many attempts by both players and staff to curb the cost of players that came with largely unregulated pk. The main complaint about those attempts were that the people who were doing the killing weren't breaking any rules. So, the rules got changed. Purposefully. It's not broken, it's just different. The average number of players at all times of the day went up, and stayed up throughout the wipe. Even the majority the people who claimed they would never play if pk was removed stayed around. A few people quit, but, more people came back.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on October 23, 2020, 07:37:32 PM
Given that nobody PK's would imply that it is broken...There are plenty of people that would LOVE to pk if there was a better system in place.

Broken implies that it is not working as intended. And while I agree that there are plenty of people who would love to have a PvP aspect to the game (myself included), there are very few who want pk back. Let's not forget that there were many attempts by both players and staff to curb the cost of players that came with largely unregulated pk. The main complaint about those attempts were that the people who were doing the killing weren't breaking any rules. So, the rules got changed. Purposefully. It's not broken, it's just different. The average number of players at all times of the day went up, and stayed up throughout the wipe. Even the majority the people who claimed they would never play if pk was removed stayed around. A few people quit, but, more people came back.

Nice. An argument about semantics. That's a strong one...

Anyway, what Ilya means when he says broken is that it is unbalanced in such a fashion that it is gamebreaking. It's a pretty common term in competitive gaming to label something as "broken" when it is overpowered and extremely unbalanced.

Apparently George is too dumb to interpret words beyond their dictionary definition.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 23, 2020, 08:05:49 PM
It isn't an argument about semantics, though. It's a discussion about what constitutes "pk". I'm familiar with the use of the term, and a lack of player killing is neither overpowered nor unbalanced. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it overpowered, and something that doesn't exist cannot be unbalanced. You and Ilya don't want the same thing, but you want to lump yourself in with him because he used the term "pk". Face it, Eddie, you're mad that the behavior and attitude of you and your buddies was the root cause of the change that you so despise.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on October 24, 2020, 12:29:14 AM
It isn't an argument about semantics, though. It's a discussion about what constitutes "pk". I'm familiar with the use of the term, and a lack of player killing is neither overpowered nor unbalanced. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it overpowered, and something that doesn't exist cannot be unbalanced. You and Ilya don't want the same thing, but you want to lump yourself in with him because he used the term "pk". Face it, Eddie, you're mad that the behavior and attitude of you and your buddies was the root cause of the change that you so despise.

I never said lack of player killing is unbalanced and overpowered.  The design of PvP/PK combat is flawed to the point where the staff basically had to remove it from the game. It was too easy to kill someone or entire groups of people and take everything someone had worked weeks to acquire. This situation was exacerbated by increasingly more powerful gear and a lack of competition for that top end gear. When one clan had/has all of the best equipment there was virtually no way to compete with them because there is a large disparity in equipment value between said group and the next closest group of players. Having no way to close the gap once a clan has achieved such power is one reason why pk is broken/unbalanced.  Having to risk everything against extremely long odds and further widening that gap makes pk between the top clans completely undesirable.

My proposals to fix pk were ideas to address the broken pk system as it is an aspect of the game that many players do enjoy. I'm not saying they are right but they are alternative solutions to the lazy fixes that have been implemented in the past.  I.e. implementing a huge reduction in PVP damage only ensured in most instances that only the top tier clan could consistently dish out enough damage to kill anybody at all. Any fix to the broken pk system would include mitigating factors to potential losses so bitches like you don't cry like a baby when you get dumpstered again. Your gear is probably not even mote worthy so who cares anyway.

If you want to make the argument that you don't like pk and would prefer that it's not in the game, that's perfectly valid. But it is absolutely idiotic to suggest that pk/pvp is "working as intended". As Ilya pointed out, it isn't working at all because it doesn't happen.

P.s. I'm not lumping myself in with anyone. I have discussed at length the state of PvP in Arctic with Ilya in person. The dude lives 3 minutes away from me. So please don't act like you have any clue where me and him stand on the issue. Whether we agree or not, at least he has a well thought out and respectable position.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on October 24, 2020, 02:55:55 AM
Actually, over my 25-ish year time on Arctic, I've only been pk'd five or six times. Now, even if it were the case that my experience was "getting dumpstered", that has nothing to do with the discussion. I'm not talking about my experiences with pk, nor my feelings on the matter. What I've said are the facts. PK IS working as intended, because it's intended to not work. The reason that it went to full zero is because when presented with the opportunity to work with the staff and players on those "nuances" you're so fond of, you decided that your response was what amounted to, "git gud". Now, leaving aside the simple fact that not being good at something you don't care about doesn't make you a lesser person or player, you and your cronies were actively driving away players. This is not also not my opinion. The staff at the time was faced with this problem, and you were unwilling to work with them, so they made the simple numbers calculation that ended with your dreams being shattered. It went something like this: If you are someone who cares so much about pk that you will stop playing if it is removed, the chances of you driving away a player who has upset you are very high. If you succeed in driving away that player, you are unlikely to be satisfied, and you will pick a new target, possibly driving that player away. However, if pk is removed and you quit, you can't drive anyone away. So, the numbers made sense to take pk away, because you refused to work with the staff and players to make it fun for everyone. None of this is opinion, and it is pretty well documented right here on the forums. The staff made a full stop on pk, and less people minded than didn't mind. People returned to the game, and people enjoyed it. Changing pk damage is literally a command away. One command would put pk damage back up, and from there changes to CC and all that other stuff you cried about could be looked at. The reason is isn't is, once again, because of players like you. No one in charge cares enough about it to try to work with you anymore, because you made such a colossal mess of it before. Your goal in pk is to make other people suffer, and the staff simply cannot allow that with the player base being as small as it is. Which is why I say Ilya and you do not want the same things. He suggested structured battles, PvP gear and rewards, and no-loot world PvP. You essentially suggested making it so you and your cronies can drive players away again. The only reason you think his position is well thought out and respectable is because you dream that it gets your foot in the door on pk. You certainly didn't seem to think very highly of it when he was making similar suggestions just before the staff brought the hammer down on your noggin.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on October 24, 2020, 03:56:06 AM
Alright. You're at least 40 years old and don't understand the difference between your subjective perception and facts.

I have nothing else to offer you and I won't attempt to hijack this thread anymore to educate you on how stupid you are. You can summarize your position by saying "I don't want pk in the open world in any form or capacity".

I came here to make valid suggestions of ideas I think would improve the game by bringing back a facet of it that many players do enjoy in some capacity and might be open to if the form was adapted in a balanced and fair manner that the playerbase and staff agree on. People can agree or disagree with my suggestions or even the concept of addressing pk as a way of making the game more enjoyable. It was never my intention to attempt to lobby the staff to bring pk back as it was before and I don't think the suggestions I made inferred that. I am fully aware that a large portion of the playerbase has no appetite for pk in that form.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kholos on October 24, 2020, 04:07:03 AM
I only glanced at this post, as I caught wind of it once it was 4 pages long and full of anthologies. I believe in transparency, but also don't want to make promises I can't keep. Reflecting on former posts made by my predecessors, it would be irresponsible to announce a change that wasn't a certainty. With that disclaimer out of the way, I understand how important it is to keep the players informed and engaged. What follows is very unofficial, but let me assure you that the staff shares many of your concerns.

- We are currently and constantly working on bringing new and exciting content to the game. This takes a lot of time.
- We are always looking at improving upon prior systems, while being careful not to approach issues with an over-reaction. Think "sheafs".
- There is a current plan in place to address a host of gear issues. It is quite comprehensive and so I must caution against getting our hopes too high, but if completed it would preserve the spirit of competing for unique gear as well as appealing to hardcore/casual players alike.
- We are working on removing some of the guesswork from some of the game mechanics for players.


Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on October 24, 2020, 09:36:09 AM
- We are currently and constantly working on bringing new and exciting content to the game. This takes a lot of time.
- We are always looking at improving upon prior systems, while being careful not to approach issues with an over-reaction. Think "sheafs".
- There is a current plan in place to address a host of gear issues. It is quite comprehensive and so I must caution against getting our hopes too high, but if completed it would preserve the spirit of competing for unique gear as well as appealing to hardcore/casual players alike.
- We are working on removing some of the guesswork from some of the game mechanics for players.

sounds promising.  thanks for the info.  it always makes me happy to know things are being worked on behind teh scenes in this game
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on October 24, 2020, 04:50:12 PM
Thanks for hopping on this and speaking out a bit.

I only glanced at this post, as I caught wind of it once it was 4 pages long and full of anthologies. I believe in transparency, but also don't want to make promises I can't keep. Reflecting on former posts made by my predecessors, it would be irresponsible to announce a change that wasn't a certainty. With that disclaimer out of the way, I understand how important it is to keep the players informed and engaged. What follows is very unofficial, but let me assure you that the staff shares many of your concerns.

- We are currently and constantly working on bringing new and exciting content to the game. This takes a lot of time.
- We are always looking at improving upon prior systems, while being careful not to approach issues with an over-reaction. Think "sheafs".
- There is a current plan in place to address a host of gear issues. It is quite comprehensive and so I must caution against getting our hopes too high, but if completed it would preserve the spirit of competing for unique gear as well as appealing to hardcore/casual players alike.
- We are working on removing some of the guesswork from some of the game mechanics for players.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Anista on October 24, 2020, 06:38:42 PM
- We are currently and constantly working on bringing new and exciting content to the game. This takes a lot of time.
- We are always looking at improving upon prior systems, while being careful not to approach issues with an over-reaction. Think "sheafs".
- There is a current plan in place to address a host of gear issues. It is quite comprehensive and so I must caution against getting our hopes too high, but if completed it would preserve the spirit of competing for unique gear as well as appealing to hardcore/casual players alike.
- We are working on removing some of the guesswork from some of the game mechanics for players.

sounds promising.  thanks for the info.  it always makes me happy to know things are being worked on behind teh scenes in this game

Well good, you can always be happy. There is always something in the works!

I can confirm there are quite a few good improvements for next wipe, but we will not be presenting any details or [more] early hints until we're ready to reveal upcoming changes in the next month or two. I am sure some of our reveals will make you smile.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on October 25, 2020, 01:38:50 AM
Quote from: Anista link=topic=2515.msg15021#msg15021 date=1603561122

Well good, you can always be happy. There is [u
always[/u] something in the works!

I can confirm there are quite a few good improvements for next wipe, but we will not be presenting any details or [more] early hints until we're ready to reveal upcoming changes in the next month or two. I am sure some of our reveals will make you smile.

great to hear!  cant wait to see whats coming next  :D
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: corey on October 25, 2020, 01:30:09 PM
- We are currently and constantly working on bringing new and exciting content to the game. This takes a lot of time.
- We are always looking at improving upon prior systems, while being careful not to approach issues with an over-reaction. Think "sheafs".
- There is a current plan in place to address a host of gear issues. It is quite comprehensive and so I must caution against getting our hopes too high, but if completed it would preserve the spirit of competing for unique gear as well as appealing to hardcore/casual players alike.
- We are working on removing some of the guesswork from some of the game mechanics for players.

sounds promising.  thanks for the info.  it always makes me happy to know things are being worked on behind teh scenes in this game

Well good, you can always be happy. There is always something in the works!

I can confirm there are quite a few good improvements for next wipe, but we will not be presenting any details or [more] early hints until we're ready to reveal upcoming changes in the next month or two. I am sure some of our reveals will make you smile.

What they're keeping secret is the bad improvements!!
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Zozen on October 26, 2020, 04:27:57 AM
So, what I got out of this entire thread is that it is pwiping on Nov 3rd.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Dafin on October 30, 2020, 05:42:30 PM
Given that nobody PK's would imply that it is broken...There are plenty of people that would LOVE to pk if there was a better system in place.
Why can't people who love pk arrange fights and battle till first blood/first rip/etc?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on October 31, 2020, 06:35:41 PM
Why can't people who love pk arrange fights and battle till first blood/first rip/etc?

they could!  kind of like a fight club

but i dont think thats the kind of pvp people like in this game.  there is a great feeling of power in ambushing someone and destroying them before they can fight back and taking all of their stuff that they worked so hard for. 

then you do it to them again.  and again.  if they make an alt to try to escape you, you figure out what it is and start killing that.  if you guessed wrong who cares its just another person to dominate for your pleasure.  and the more they whine and cry the better it feels.  if they quit the game that is the peak.  then you have achieved true victory.  thats the arctic pvp that people love.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: reed23 on October 31, 2020, 10:01:45 PM
@el Conquistador - nope, it's not.  Good try though.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on November 01, 2020, 02:01:08 AM
Kind of nailed it lol. Hah
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Dafin on November 01, 2020, 06:22:38 PM
@el Conquistador - nope, it's not.  Good try though.
Very convincing:)
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Bryton on November 03, 2020, 04:24:00 PM
Why can't people who love pk arrange fights and battle till first blood/first rip/etc?

they could!  kind of like a fight club

but i dont think thats the kind of pvp people like in this game.  there is a great feeling of power in ambushing someone and destroying them before they can fight back and taking all of their stuff that they worked so hard for. 

then you do it to them again.  and again.  if they make an alt to try to escape you, you figure out what it is and start killing that.  if you guessed wrong who cares its just another person to dominate for your pleasure.  and the more they whine and cry the better it feels.  if they quit the game that is the peak.  then you have achieved true victory.  thats the arctic pvp that people love.

I love this, but I know arctic is full of bitches now days. So, why not make it so that if you die to pvp you only loose a certain percentage of your equipment on death? This makes dying in pvp less of an issue and still gives the pker some reward. Then just keep it so only time you really lose all your equipment on death is when you die to a mob..

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: wezlar on November 04, 2020, 08:11:23 PM
It really has nothing to do with being "bitches". Losing a portion of your gear is still complete shit, and the real downside to PK is just never being able to play the game because evils are online. I can't speak for other clans but Brogs are all adults in our mid 30s with jobs and wives and children and friends outside the game. We schedule our time a couple nights a week to play with each other because we grew up playing this game and it's a fun way to connect. If PK comes back and we have to worry about whether or not we can play during the times we want to play, we'll just quit and find something else to do with our time.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on November 04, 2020, 08:25:29 PM
Funny you say that... Because that's exactly what a bitch would say.

Lol. I kid I kid.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: xellos on November 06, 2020, 06:24:44 PM
Next wipe its world war z, and ya are the zombies.  We getting the band back together and we will remember all the shit people pulled when our core quit.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 06, 2020, 06:53:24 PM
It really has nothing to do with being "bitches". Losing a portion of your gear is still complete shit, and the real downside to PK is just never being able to play the game because evils are online. I can't speak for other clans but Brogs are all adults in our mid 30s with jobs and wives and children and friends outside the game. We schedule our time a couple nights a week to play with each other because we grew up playing this game and it's a fun way to connect. If PK comes back and we have to worry about whether or not we can play during the times we want to play, we'll just quit and find something else to do with our time.

Lol do you think you are the only clan with members who have wives\children\jobs? That's basically everybody who plays the game in 2020. The only difference is, the rest dont cower to the idea of pk and threaten to quit. Pk is at the very nature of arctic. If you die to pk, you man up and go kill who killed you and get your gear back. Its really not difficult and it makes the game much more enjoyable and fun. Being hunted by half the mud is the best way of playing.

Arctic is based around pk. Limit one items are powerful, so powerful that they change the course of the game. Without being able to pk people with limit 1 items it turns into whoever was lucky enough to run the zone and landed the correct RNG to load the item first. Thats so lame. Secondly, without pvp, you have the scenarios in which trolls can just follow around your group and screw up zones, either ruining the zone by doing an incorrect keyword, fooming a chest that requires disable, etc etc. Thats not the kind of game I want to play in which loser no-lifers can make playing the game miserable without repercussions.

Also lets not act like losing your gearset is a big deal. I've discussed this in pervious posts but I cant count how many times i've died late at night and said bapt it and went to bed. Next day log on, pop a 4d4 prime, enchant it, pop a set and you are back in business able to do high end zoning. Legend, medals, and ranks make getting pked a non-issue. Hell, there is a theros quest to get a 2d8 2 2 prime. Thats 18 dam prime, insane. Nobody should be crying about pvp. Id rather be on the losing end of a pvp war that lasts a pwipe then the winners of a wipe where there was no pvp.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Shimopy on November 06, 2020, 09:45:05 PM
Wezlar stated he was only speaking about one clan, not the entire base. Kir, you're making generalizations about how the base feels about pk, and about Arctic being based on pk, which it isn't. In fact, Arctic's website says pk isn't necessarily encouraged, only allowed. Sure, pk used to be a lot more popular, but it definitely isn't today.

The issue is not losing gear. It's that casual players can't "man up and fight back" if the people hunting them are always on in larger numbers with more powerful equipment. This results in casual players quitting, then hardcore players quitting because there's no one left to kill.

I have never seen a situation where trolls intentionally ruin zones for others. If this became a problem, I'm sure immortals would intervene.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: wezlar on November 06, 2020, 10:10:01 PM
Lol do you think you are the only clan with members who have wives\children\jobs? That's basically everybody who plays the game in 2020. The only difference is, the rest dont cower to the idea of pk and threaten to quit.

Like you said, we're all adults with lives. We have different amounts of time we are willing to dedicate to this game. No one is cowering or afraid. I'm not a dargonesti warrior and you're not a silvanesti mage. We just disagree on how the reintroduction of a game mechanic would effect our enjoyment of the game.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Tajs on November 07, 2020, 01:33:11 PM
Aaaaanyways, what I just want to know if how long time in advance a wipe would be announced? :)
I'm not asking for a date (though it would be nice!), but more like info on how to plan around it
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: reed23 on November 07, 2020, 07:22:19 PM
^^^^ Agreed!
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on November 08, 2020, 07:36:18 PM
how things are seen and how they are. Rise either massively char shares and thus can be on all hours of the night and day or they quit their jobs to play mud or whatever. You guys just get more into it. Then you hunt people into quitting. So you say fight back but you don't really want that lol. You're willing to invest many more hours at once into winning and most others aren't. Its not gear or spells or numbers that win you the wars. Its time.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 09, 2020, 06:44:57 PM
"Thats not the kind of game I want to play in which loser no-lifers can make playing the game miserable without repercussions."

This quote right here could easily be applied to everyone who plays the game that is NOT in <RISE>.

Jorake has a good point about the time commitment that <RISE> certainly gives to the game during wipe rushes.

I've been around long enough to know, PK in Arctic absolutely gets the blood flowing, it's exciting and dangerous.  I think the trouble with PK now and still is the 'win at all costs' mentality. The point of a clan war is to win, but when people are hunted every second they are online it's hard to just say 'go pop a weapon and kill them, get your gear back'. It comes down to pulverizing your enemy with so many numbers and outgearing/spelling them that there's literally no way they can fight back and then they get called 'bitches' and most likely leave the game until later in the wipe.

I think if all the fights were organized and planned, people would be willing to stick around and actually have battles. I'm not talking about some arena shit, but full on "let's fight at the tollhouse in 5 minutes" winner takes all stuff. When there's no fight planned, clan A does its own thing, clan B does its own thing.  Now this also brings up a point that if Clan B doesn't want to fight at this time, Clan A gets bored and breaks the truce and then you go right back to the start of the whole problem.

Arctic is such a unique style of game, but like many have pointed out, there's just not enough time and or level of commitment(by the general masses) to even want to play when they are at war with a group of people like <RISE>.

I think if <RISE> was around in its current form back in 1999-2004 that would be amazing, I'd even want to join up and fight with them. But that's just not the case anymore. It's not what the game has evolved into.

People can say what they want about my response, but I don't have any problems with anyone in this game. I just hate to see people pulverized into the ground and quit for months at a time until  things calm down.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on November 09, 2020, 09:19:59 PM
.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 09, 2020, 11:00:02 PM
That was a quote directly from Kir, Eddie. I was using it as an example within this thread. Again, I personally don't care how people play this game and I'm not on either side of this "us vs them" mentality. I care that some people are driven away from the game because of the actions of others. I've pked and been pked, it's great and fun, but sometimes people don't want to deal with it in a game they want to socialize in and kill internet dragons with friends.

I know at the end of the day I can play this game and do most of the content on two characters with shop gear. I don't know the fascination with having the 'best equipment in the game' when it's NOT needed at all.

 I thought fishing was supposed to be relaxing....
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on November 10, 2020, 12:04:49 AM
That was a quote directly from Kir, Eddie. I was using it as an example within this thread. Again, I personally don't care how people play this game and I'm not on either side of this "us vs them" mentality. I care that some people are driven away from the game because of the actions of others. I've pked and been pked, it's great and fun, but sometimes people don't want to deal with it in a game they want to socialize in and kill internet dragons with friends.

I know at the end of the day I can play this game and do most of the content on two characters with shop gear. I don't know the fascination with having the 'best equipment in the game' when it's NOT needed at all.

 I thought fishing was supposed to be relaxing....

True. I'm an idiot and took it in a completely different direction.

Not sure what any of this has to do with fishing being relaxing. I actually just got back from fishing. It was quite relaxing.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 10, 2020, 01:34:09 AM
I just wanted to make sure dude! You seemed high strung in that post.  I don't want you to go to jail dude, crack pipes on the playground..... playground...;)
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 11, 2020, 10:06:09 PM
how things are seen and how they are. Rise either massively char shares and thus can be on all hours of the night and day or they quit their jobs to play mud or whatever. You guys just get more into it. Then you hunt people into quitting. So you say fight back but you don't really want that lol. You're willing to invest many more hours at once into winning and most others aren't. Its not gear or spells or numbers that win you the wars. Its time.

I played for 2-3 months of this wipe and didnt attack anybody, got bored and went back to albion. Your narrative is completely false. And yes, we take our vacation days to rush because that is our favorite thing about arctic. For 30 years the rush has been the most fun thing about arctic. And yes, we REALLY want people to fight back. Every change I have asked for is so more casual people can have a chance at fighting back. So please relax on the anti-rise sentiment. I would play the game 365 days a year if there were active and equal clan wars. I cant help that other people come with excuses because they are more afraid of failing then taking a chance and winning. 
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on November 12, 2020, 12:00:56 AM

 And yes, we REALLY want people to fight back.

If this were the case, you wouldn't have constantly broken ceasefires and temporary peaces. Those things allow people to be able to fight back. They were asked for, agreed upon, and broken by RISE. When asked why, your answer amounted to "git gud". You don't want competition, you want domination.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 12, 2020, 01:56:54 AM

 And yes, we REALLY want people to fight back.

If this were the case, you wouldn't have constantly broken ceasefires and temporary peaces. Those things allow people to be able to fight back. They were asked for, agreed upon, and broken by RISE. When asked why, your answer amounted to "git gud". You don't want competition, you want domination.

Give me one piece of evidence that supports I have ever given peace to anybody outside of myth.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on November 12, 2020, 11:08:06 AM

Give me one piece of evidence that supports I have ever given peace to anybody outside of myth.

so you are saying no matter how badly players wanted you to stop killing them so they can play the game you never ever have shown mercy except for one possible exception of myth? 

yes sounds like healthy gameplay and good fun for all.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on November 12, 2020, 06:56:50 PM
I'm not sure where this turned into a RISE gangbang. The subject is Game Ideas. I also only played for 2-3 months this wipe. I quit. I've quit sooner and for longer periods of time each wipe for the last 2-3 wipes. Idk. It could be my lack of interest in exploring things. Could be because things like icewall got revamped after I had explore it. Things like qualinesti being changed into what it is now. Instead of just adding a new zone. Why keep revamping shit. Just add new shit? Quali was a good zone. Icewall was a good zone. Shadows was a good zone. Some like the changes. I just liked the old stuff. I would be way more inclined to explore a new zone rather than reexploring something I already spent time learning in the first place.

Could be that I've played the game since I was like 14-15. So .. 20 years. I pretty much come back, legend something. Play with buddies for a few. Then bounce. I used to like PK. I don't now. I'll admit.. its partially due to being "afraid" of losing everything. More of a.. bapt I  don't really want to start over. Or bapt.. I don't want to sit and wait for a good ambush chance like back in the day. I just like to log on. Play for a while and rent; hopefully having gained something. The main point of this was to say that even that has become trivial with gear decays and the ever present "That piece of gear is MINE!" "trade trade trader or die die die". It just became a chore. Keeping a set of eq became a chore. Even maintaining a class set becomes a chore.

There's no good or bad guys in the game. Everyone just plays how they wanna play. And I'm looking for ways to get away from how I don't want to play.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Rhys on November 12, 2020, 08:36:29 PM
Nice post Jorake.

I have logged on 2 nights running to see both times there has been only 1 person online. Around 9 am system time maybe.

I am not sure why a game with a significant amount of content designed and predicated around the notion of a group of mixed ability characters with various roles has a rule of max 2 characters when the player base is clearly not sufficient in number to support it.

At this point who is it hurting if the number of characters is increased? The old (false) adage of "shout for a group" "join a clan" is redundant with such few (1) numbers on.

From a PR point of view, surely it would appear better to a new player (do they exist?) to log on and see a number of characters in the who list rather than a just them?

The question then seems to be "would the number of players increase if character limits were increased"? Maybe ask that 1 guy playing and see if he would quit if others logged with a 4 man?

I am sure others disagree, but just my 2 cents on what would make the game more enjoyable for me and encourage me to play this fantastic game at this stage of the wipe.





Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: xellos on November 13, 2020, 02:36:30 PM
lmao, who is this keyboard warrior george posting?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Gnua on November 13, 2020, 02:54:38 PM
I also only played for 2-3 months this wipe. I quit. I've quit sooner and for longer periods of time each wipe for the last 2-3 wipes. Idk. It could be my lack of interest in exploring things.

I think the reincarnation grind drove you away.  A lot of people love reincarnation or at least cant help resist the urge to grind, and I dont think you are the only big leader who quit while the fodder was reincarnating.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on November 14, 2020, 01:26:11 AM

Give me one piece of evidence that supports I have ever given peace to anybody outside of myth.

I suppose the only piece of evidence I have is a few quotes from Ilya from before RISE got cheater smashed. No one refuted the claims then, so, I see no reason to assume anything other than truth to them.

Here is one such quote.

"In the olden days when there was war, it was fought until one side wins and then peace talks/terms are drawn up and people go their merry little ways. Sometimes the war would restart when both sides thought they were strong enough but for the most part peace maintains.

I don't know about WILD but I know last wipe when we were beat we tried to settle some peace. Our peace was laughed at, we got some shitty cease fires that were never honored, and ultimately we were forced to quit until RISE finally quit for the wipe.

It's funny to me that RISE don't see the irony in this attack. They were smashed by someone who they have no hope of fighting back against, similar to those who RISE targets.

Flame on."
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Gnua on November 14, 2020, 06:21:17 AM
I'm not sure where this turned into a RISE gangbang. The subject is Game Ideas.

Discussion on game ideas tend to talk about limited gear, which then turns the conversation to pk, and then everyone not rise says they cant compete with a clan that has a consistent 8man on 24/7.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on November 14, 2020, 11:51:15 AM
It likely was reincarnation that did it for me in the end. Its a very strong feature for sure.

I do miss playing a bit now lol. I made a cleric and thief a while ago and kept it anon. I hop on it from time to time. But I keep no real gear. I just buy merchant shit.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 14, 2020, 06:08:58 PM
I guess that solves it. Time to make gear unlimited. Arctic peace had been achieved! I think people would still find something to complain about.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 14, 2020, 06:42:01 PM

Give me one piece of evidence that supports I have ever given peace to anybody outside of myth.

I suppose the only piece of evidence I have is a few quotes from Ilya from before RISE got cheater smashed. No one refuted the claims then, so, I see no reason to assume anything other than truth to them.

Here is one such quote.

"In the olden days when there was war, it was fought until one side wins and then peace talks/terms are drawn up and people go their merry little ways. Sometimes the war would restart when both sides thought they were strong enough but for the most part peace maintains.

I don't know about WILD but I know last wipe when we were beat we tried to settle some peace. Our peace was laughed at, we got some shitty cease fires that were never honored, and ultimately we were forced to quit until RISE finally quit for the wipe.

It's funny to me that RISE don't see the irony in this attack. They were smashed by someone who they have no hope of fighting back against, similar to those who RISE targets.

Flame on."

Bro, having to respond to these absurd allegations with no actual evidence can go on forever, but I will address them and that is all I am going to say:

Ok since I have never personally given anybody peace I had to do some research into these Ilya accusations and apparently what happened was, they would get a 2 week ceasefire to regear to allow them to keep playing. When the ceasefire was over they'd get attacked. They were never given forever peace, just 1-2 weeks at a time. Whatever your clanleaders passed down to the rest of the clan to get them to log on and leave the in is on them, not us.

And I am not sure what "RISE got cheater smashed" means but nothing comes to my immediate recollection so I am going to assume that its more nonsense propaganda until you can elaborate as out of the top pvp guilds of the last 15 years we historically cheated the least by far.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on November 14, 2020, 07:22:56 PM

Ok since I have never personally given anybody peace I had to do some research into these Ilya accusations and apparently what happened was, they would get a 2 week ceasefire to regear to allow them to keep playing. When the ceasefire was over they'd get attacked. They were never given forever peace, just 1-2 weeks at a time. Whatever your clanleaders passed down to the rest of the clan to get them to log on and leave the in is on them, not us.


I never said anything about forever peace. I actually specifically said "temporary peaces". And the problem was that the ceacefire was supposed to be 1-2 weeks, and RISE would attack within a couple days as CORE was zoning. That's what I meant by breaking the ceasefires and temporary peaces. They were never allowed to go even for the small duration that was agreed upon. You can pretend that didn't happen, but... It did. No one was allowed any time to build up to fight back. As soon as people started logging on to start that process, RISE came in and butchered them. If you REALLY wanted competition, you'd let people get strong enough to be a challenge to beat. You had ample opportunities to do so with multiple opponents, and never did. I think it's completely fair to say that the reason you never did was because you didn't want competition. If there's another reason, please, let us know, because this is what basically every single person who isn't in RISE thinks.


And I am not sure what "RISE got cheater smashed" means but nothing comes to my immediate recollection so I am going to assume that its more nonsense propaganda until you can elaborate as out of the top pvp guilds of the last 15 years we historically cheated the least by far.


What I am referring to with "RISE got cheater smashed" was when the immortal staff made cheater characters and smashed RISE. Cheater... Smashed. Get it? Nothing about you guys cheating. Although, let's be fair here, saying you cheated the least out of the top PvP guilds is a pretty low bar to make it over, haha.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 14, 2020, 08:03:40 PM

Ok since I have never personally given anybody peace I had to do some research into these Ilya accusations and apparently what happened was, they would get a 2 week ceasefire to regear to allow them to keep playing. When the ceasefire was over they'd get attacked. They were never given forever peace, just 1-2 weeks at a time. Whatever your clanleaders passed down to the rest of the clan to get them to log on and leave the in is on them, not us.


I never said anything about forever peace. I actually specifically said "temporary peaces". And the problem was that the ceacefire was supposed to be 1-2 weeks, and RISE would attack within a couple days as CORE was zoning. That's what I meant by breaking the ceasefires and temporary peaces. They were never allowed to go even for the small duration that was agreed upon. You can pretend that didn't happen, but... It did. No one was allowed any time to build up to fight back. As soon as people started logging on to start that process, RISE came in and butchered them. If you REALLY wanted competition, you'd let people get strong enough to be a challenge to beat. You had ample opportunities to do so with multiple opponents, and never did. I think it's completely fair to say that the reason you never did was because you didn't want competition. If there's another reason, please, let us know, because this is what basically every single person who isn't in RISE thinks.


And I am not sure what "RISE got cheater smashed" means but nothing comes to my immediate recollection so I am going to assume that its more nonsense propaganda until you can elaborate as out of the top pvp guilds of the last 15 years we historically cheated the least by far.


What I am referring to with "RISE got cheater smashed" was when the immortal staff made cheater characters and smashed RISE. Cheater... Smashed. Get it? Nothing about you guys cheating. Although, let's be fair here, saying you cheated the least out of the top PvP guilds is a pretty low bar to make it over, haha.

Oh I see, well that did happen and we definitely were not happy about it at the time but we understood the point they were trying to make. At least they had a point to make which was much better than the previous administration which cheated 10000x worse for absolutely no reason. Im fine with imm cheat chars killing us now and again, its w\e.

So if your point is that RISE does not want competition, what in your mind do you propose for us to do for all the other guilds to become big, mean and aggressive enough to attack us instead of us attacking them. This wipe I played for 2-3 months without attacking anybody besides sterok on day 2 of the wipe. I was awaiting an attack and nothing after months. I ended up quitting and then RISE jumped CORE in sleet, lost to 1 druid and the rest quit. Some of us LOVE the pvp aspect of this game, how do you think we can make it so more people can be encouraged to fight, and fights happen more commonly?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 14, 2020, 08:26:01 PM
As far as what can be done, there's a few things that could maybe happen. Currently with everyone playing two characters, the amount of total gear that loads is fairly low. When everyone has 1-3 sets of gear rented, you could zone all day and maybe outfit 2 people with gear enough to put up a fight.  If battles were arranged at a certain time and date, that could help. I know historically, RISE are on 24/7 at the start of the wipe. If they go and smash a group of people(it won't be MYTH because that's where they go after most RISE quit) and the war is 'on' any time a solo person tries and leaves peace an 8 man will hunt them down. If both sides can agree to equal number fighting only that could help. 


As someone who doesn't really care either way, that's just my opinion on it. I have more to type but I'm on my phone now and have to go!
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on November 14, 2020, 08:30:35 PM
So if your point is that RISE does not want competition, what in your mind do you propose for us to do for all the other guilds to become big, mean and aggressive enough to attack us instead of us attacking them. This wipe I played for 2-3 months without attacking anybody besides sterok on day 2 of the wipe. I was awaiting an attack and nothing after months. I ended up quitting and then RISE jumped CORE in sleet, lost to 1 druid and the rest quit. Some of us LOVE the pvp aspect of this game, how do you think we can make it so more people can be encouraged to fight, and fights happen more commonly?

That's the part of this that is honestly heart-breaking for the people who understand your desire to have PvP. You HAD people like that. You HAD opponents willing and able to fight back, they just didn't have the time to do it as quickly or as often as you did, and you used that edge to stomp them into the ground and drive them away from the game. You won. You made it to the top, and you burned everything down around you. You beat everyone who was left to fight, and now... There's no one left who wants to fight you. No one attacks RISE because there's no fun in it. If you want it to happen, you should consider giving "forever peace". Let people know that a battle is a battle, eq loot or no. Don't hunt people for zoning with enemies. Don't slaughter possible enemies while they're zoning. Make it fun for people to fight back! Xellos's little promise of: "Next wipe its world war z, and ya are the zombies.  We getting the band back together and we will remember all the shit people pulled when our core quit." is not going to help anyone want to fight back. If that's really how you plan on next wipe being, it's either going to end up in RISE playing alone until you get bored and quit, or another hammer being brought down. Arctic is a game that people play for fun. If it's not fun, there are other games out there.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 14, 2020, 10:05:45 PM
So if your point is that RISE does not want competition, what in your mind do you propose for us to do for all the other guilds to become big, mean and aggressive enough to attack us instead of us attacking them. This wipe I played for 2-3 months without attacking anybody besides sterok on day 2 of the wipe. I was awaiting an attack and nothing after months. I ended up quitting and then RISE jumped CORE in sleet, lost to 1 druid and the rest quit. Some of us LOVE the pvp aspect of this game, how do you think we can make it so more people can be encouraged to fight, and fights happen more commonly?

That's the part of this that is honestly heart-breaking for the people who understand your desire to have PvP. You HAD people like that. You HAD opponents willing and able to fight back, they just didn't have the time to do it as quickly or as often as you did, and you used that edge to stomp them into the ground and drive them away from the game. You won. You made it to the top, and you burned everything down around you. You beat everyone who was left to fight, and now... There's no one left who wants to fight you. No one attacks RISE because there's no fun in it. If you want it to happen, you should consider giving "forever peace". Let people know that a battle is a battle, eq loot or no. Don't hunt people for zoning with enemies. Don't slaughter possible enemies while they're zoning. Make it fun for people to fight back! Xellos's little promise of: "Next wipe its world war z, and ya are the zombies.  We getting the band back together and we will remember all the shit people pulled when our core quit." is not going to help anyone want to fight back. If that's really how you plan on next wipe being, it's either going to end up in RISE playing alone until you get bored and quit, or another hammer being brought down. Arctic is a game that people play for fun. If it's not fun, there are other games out there.

Ok you can look at the killboard and see how many people we killed this wipe, it was maybe 5 total? Last wipe we killed two people. Everything you asked for in this post we have already done the past two wipes. PVP has not returned with us playing playing nice and even when we mass quit and created a power vacuum, nobody was pvped. As Jorake pointed out this is a game ideas section. Can we try to come up with game ideas to restore fair, easily accessible pvp that the majority of the players can enjoy?


Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on November 14, 2020, 10:26:23 PM
You talk about the last couple wipes like the previous ones didn't happen, or aren't remembered. As though RISE doesn't have a running list of enemy PLAYERS (not characters) that they want to kill that doesn't get reset each wipe. Again, as Xellos said "we will remember". And, the thing is, you guys are the only ones that really miss that kind of PvP, because you stomped the fire out of everyone else. There are a couple people here and there that want friendly PvP competition back, or arranged battles, or an arena with limited or no eq looting, but, they style of "winner takes all" pk just doesn't seem to have much of anyone behind it who isn't affiliated with RISE. Most of the playerbase seems satisfied with Arctic being a PvE game now. I honestly don't think open world pk is coming back. An aging player base just seems to enjoy playing when, and with who, they want to play without worrying about getting jumped. I know I do. I like that if my daughter falls down and hurts herself, I can step away from my computer in the middle of running from Kalaman to TH and not get aced for standing still for more than ten seconds on the road while I tend to her. The game ideas for fair, easily accessible PvP have been plentiful on this thread and others, but, RISE as a whole doesn't seem to want those ones. I don't know how to try to help you get any part of what you want (not that I have any sway whatsoever) when there isn't a clear idea of what it is that you want. PvP is too broad of a goal. We need a starting point, somewhere to jump off from.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 14, 2020, 11:30:26 PM
You talk about the last couple wipes like the previous ones didn't happen, or aren't remembered. As though RISE doesn't have a running list of enemy PLAYERS (not characters) that they want to kill that doesn't get reset each wipe. Again, as Xellos said "we will remember". And, the thing is, you guys are the only ones that really miss that kind of PvP, because you stomped the fire out of everyone else. There are a couple people here and there that want friendly PvP competition back, or arranged battles, or an arena with limited or no eq looting, but, they style of "winner takes all" pk just doesn't seem to have much of anyone behind it who isn't affiliated with RISE. Most of the playerbase seems satisfied with Arctic being a PvE game now. I honestly don't think open world pk is coming back. An aging player base just seems to enjoy playing when, and with who, they want to play without worrying about getting jumped. I know I do. I like that if my daughter falls down and hurts herself, I can step away from my computer in the middle of running from Kalaman to TH and not get aced for standing still for more than ten seconds on the road while I tend to her. The game ideas for fair, easily accessible PvP have been plentiful on this thread and others, but, RISE as a whole doesn't seem to want those ones. I don't know how to try to help you get any part of what you want (not that I have any sway whatsoever) when there isn't a clear idea of what it is that you want. PvP is too broad of a goal. We need a starting point, somewhere to jump off from.

Please for the love of god. Stop trying to flame RISE in the game ideas thread. I am trying to be nice to you. You are making it very difficult. I cannot go back in time and make your friends suck less. They were bad and thats why they died. Nobody can help that now. Get over it. Rise shit on you because we were superior.  As an inferior player, your ego will not allow you accept that fact so you make excuses like "rise broke peace" or "winner take all is bad" or "rise cheated" or "rise doesnt want fair pvp".  Like dude... how do you not realize your failures are your own and nobody elses. If you ever want to succeed in life you have to be honest with yourself, look yourself in the mirror and figure out why you suck and fix it. Its so obvious that you are trying to get revenge on RISE by trashing us on the forums. This game is based off of PVP. PVP isn't going away, so either attempt to find ways so people like you can hang with elite players like us or stop bapting posting, jesus christ its so pathetic. And yes, when you post non stop bullshit on the forums you are going to piss people like Xellos off. How can you honestly post non-stop trash talk and then get upset when somebody pks you over it? Is this really your level of intelligence?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 14, 2020, 11:44:24 PM
I mean, to be fair.....it doesn't take much to be considered 'good' at this game. Player power has gone up wipe after wipe and we're still killing the SAME poor NPCs who are stuck in the 90s. Poor fellas. I sure would like to see some reworked NPC ui and stats. Imagine of bashing mobs actually bashed clerics or druids or...anyone but the tank. Or mage mobs casting nightmare and calming. It sure would be neat if they had some new surprises up their sleeves.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on November 14, 2020, 11:45:04 PM
And we're back. I'm not flaming RISE, I'm saying that RISE's attitude and behavior was the reason pk got changed. That's not an opinion, that is a fact. I don't care that RISE being better at pk than I am any more than I care that he guy I pay to do fix my sink is a better plumber than I am. You are under the misapprehension that people give a shit that you're better at something they don't like to do... They don't. I'm doing fine in life, and it's because I don't waste my time trying to get good at something that is ultimately worthless to me. Arctic is not based off of PvP, and PvP already went away. That's why you quit, remember? I'm not trying to get revenge on RISE for anything, because RISE has never really wronged me personally. I'm trying to get you to realize that you shot yourself in the face with your attitude and behavior, and have been crying that your face hurts EVER SINCE. You ruined pk. You brought about the change you hate so much. The reason none of your ideas have been implemented, or even brought up by the staff, is because no one cares to work with your childish ass anymore. They tried, and you swung around your big text dick, so they cut it off. It's you that needs to man up and point that finger in the mirror, because all your problems are your own fault.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 15, 2020, 12:20:05 AM
And we're back. I'm not flaming RISE, I'm saying that RISE's attitude and behavior was the reason pk got changed. That's not an opinion, that is a fact. I don't care that RISE being better at pk than I am any more than I care that he guy I pay to do fix my sink is a better plumber than I am. You are under the misapprehension that people give a shit that you're better at something they don't like to do... They don't. I'm doing fine in life, and it's because I don't waste my time trying to get good at something that is ultimately worthless to me. Arctic is not based off of PvP, and PvP already went away. That's why you quit, remember? I'm not trying to get revenge on RISE for anything, because RISE has never really wronged me personally. I'm trying to get you to realize that you shot yourself in the face with your attitude and behavior, and have been crying that your face hurts EVER SINCE. You ruined pk. You brought about the change you hate so much. The reason none of your ideas have been implemented, or even brought up by the staff, is because no one cares to work with your childish ass anymore. They tried, and you swung around your big text dick, so they cut it off. It's you that needs to man up and point that finger in the mirror, because all your problems are your own fault.

Bro, you keep saying the same retarded shit. You dont understand that pk is at the heart of this game and the only reason you can play it is because we are gracious enough not to pk you. Thats why are you such a bapting idiot. And pk got turned off not because RISE abused it. PK got turned off because Jorquin made an emotional decision when we pked his friend's bot squad while they were exploring the zone he created. Way more people quit because pk was turned off than because of RISE. Have you seen Dennis or Trucker Joe on mud since pk was turned off? Those guys and everybody like them are gone... The people RISE fought in pvp battles, wilds, core, etc all played this wipe. Again, you blame us for "running off the competition". The same players who played 10 years ago still play. So obviously we didnt run them off lol. But congrats, when your friends want to know why they are being pked from now on we are going to refer them to this thread. I was the only person in Rise who tried to help you. Im not gonna help you anymore lol, have fun dealing with xellos with his gloves off.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on November 15, 2020, 12:35:34 AM
Regardless of why you think pk got turned off to begin with, the administration has changed since then, and, for the most part... It's still off. If it weren't, you'd still be going around stomping people who can't fight back, as well as people who have no interest in fight back. PK damage is literally ONE command away from being changed back. One command. One. Simple. Command. Yes, a few people quit because pk was turned off, but, more people came back because pk was turned off. If PK were the "heart of this game", when it got turned off, the game would have died. It didn't. The number of active players at ALL times of the day went up, and stayed up throughout the rest of the wipe. Say that out loud to yourself and see if you can still think that the game is based off PvP.

Also, in regards to your baseless, empty threat... Who are my friends? Who am I? You keep thinking that I'm emotionally invested in your failure, but, I'm not. I've been zoning with everyone, including RISE, for years. I was just trying to make you see that, if you want things to change, you're going to have to man up and admit that you are the reason it's ruined. Everything about everything you say makes it quite clear that, if things change back, you're going to go back to doing exactly what you were doing when you got smashed last time. You talk about Xellos with his gloves off, like anyone cares or is scared of that. No one does, and you guys will get bored and quit, just like you do every wipe, because you care about an aspect of the game far more than anyone else does. You have nothing to threaten anyone with, stop trying to act so big and tough. No one cares about your ego.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 15, 2020, 12:45:59 AM
Regardless of why you think pk got turned off to begin with, the administration has changed since then, and, for the most part... It's still off. If it weren't, you'd still be going around stomping people who can't fight back, as well as people who have no interest in fight back. PK damage is literally ONE command away from being changed back. One command. One. Simple. Command. Yes, a few people quit because pk was turned off, but, more people came back because pk was turned off. If PK were the "heart of this game", when it got turned off, the game would have died. It didn't. The number of active players at ALL times of the day went up, and stayed up throughout the rest of the wipe. Say that out loud to yourself and see if you can still think that the game is based off PvP.

Also, in regards to your baseless, empty threat... Who are my friends? Who am I? You keep thinking that I'm emotionally invested in your failure, but, I'm not. I've been zoning with everyone, including RISE, for years. I was just trying to make you see that, if you want things to change, you're going to have to man up and admit that you are the reason it's ruined. Everything about everything you say makes it quite clear that, if things change back, you're going to go back to doing exactly what you were doing when you got smashed last time. You talk about Xellos with his gloves off, like anyone cares or is scared of that. No one does, and you guys will get bored and quit, just like you do every wipe, because you care about an aspect of the game far more than anyone else does. You have nothing to threaten anyone with, stop trying to act so big and tough. No one cares about your ego.

Ok. Just remember that you brought this upon yourself.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Bryton on November 15, 2020, 01:52:02 AM
Also, in regards to your baseless, empty threat... Who are my friends? Who am I? You keep thinking that I'm emotionally invested in your failure, but, I'm not. I've been zoning with everyone, including RISE, for years. I was just trying to make you see that, if you want things to change, you're going to have to man up and admit that you are the reason it's ruined. Everything about everything you say makes it quite clear that, if things change back, you're going to go back to doing exactly what you were doing when you got smashed last time. You talk about Xellos with his gloves off, like anyone cares or is scared of that. No one does, and you guys will get bored and quit, just like you do every wipe, because you care about an aspect of the game far more than anyone else does. You have nothing to threaten anyone with, stop trying to act so big and tough. No one cares about your ego.

George is 100% Nate, I'd come back to pk Nate. Is MYTH still a thing ?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: khuran10 on November 15, 2020, 03:50:00 AM

....As soon as people started logging on to start that process, RISE came in and butchered them....    <----1

If there's another reason, please, let us know, because this is what basically every single person who isn't in RISE thinks.  <----2

1. Wow! As people logged on RISE came in and butchered them? Jeez, someone feels super important.... hero cookie for you then, curious Geroge!
2. Never discuss religion or politics, in this case, we can add whatever you're spouting to the list because opinions and viewpoints are never ending.  Besides, we have kids and lives too! ;) (and 3 maids to boot!)
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: khuran10 on November 15, 2020, 04:01:09 AM
You talk about Xellos with his gloves off, like anyone cares or is scared of that. No one does, and you guys will get bored and quit, just like you do every wipe, because you care about an aspect of the game far more than anyone else does. You have nothing to threaten anyone with, stop trying to act so big and tough. No one cares about your ego.

Talk is cheap, shout your characters at the start of the wipe if you really don't care. :P 
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: reed23 on November 15, 2020, 04:21:18 AM
I find it funny how many posts on here are discrediting RISE early wipe dominance due to "playing 24/7" and that everyone else has "real jobs, families, etc."

I remember that the majority of the early rush nights CORE literally had 30-40 characters on.  We had 10-16. 

We've bent over backwards the last 5 years to prevent non stop crying, but at the looks of this thread, there is still a lot of crying and excuses being thrown around.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on November 15, 2020, 04:47:55 AM
i just dont think pvp is very good in arctic. 

you either have ambush style pvp where the attacking side typically brings overwhelming force to an unsuspecting target who is usually dead before they can take any action or you have arranged pvp with duels or team vs team.

ambush style does add an element of danger to the game which can be exciting but with the way power in this game works, most players dont have any chance at all of ever fighting back.  if i had decided to attack some rise character this wipe, even if i somehow caught one alone, most of them could probably afk for the first 3 rounds while i hit them with everything i had and they would still come back and kill me instead. 
and the victim just loses way too much.  losing gear that took weeks to put together because some asshole is bored is not a game that very many of us want to play anymore.  arctic has definitely lost many players from this and will lose more if it returns.

and arranged pvp just seems boring.  i can remember some tournament years ago where i entered my newbie druid and fought another druid and we just each spammed call lightning at each other.  even arranged group vs group is usually casters spamming area to find out which team has better luck with saves.   boring.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 15, 2020, 06:00:42 AM
i just dont think pvp is very good in arctic. 

you either have ambush style pvp where the attacking side typically brings overwhelming force to an unsuspecting target who is usually dead before they can take any action or you have arranged pvp with duels or team vs team.

ambush style does add an element of danger to the game which can be exciting but with the way power in this game works, most players dont have any chance at all of ever fighting back.  if i had decided to attack some rise character this wipe, even if i somehow caught one alone, most of them could probably afk for the first 3 rounds while i hit them with everything i had and they would still come back and kill me instead. 
and the victim just loses way too much.  losing gear that took weeks to put together because some asshole is bored is not a game that very many of us want to play anymore.  arctic has definitely lost many players from this and will lose more if it returns.

and arranged pvp just seems boring.  i can remember some tournament years ago where i entered my newbie druid and fought another druid and we just each spammed call lightning at each other.  even arranged group vs group is usually casters spamming area to find out which team has better luck with saves.   boring.

I agree with your post. As it is now, the under-geared\lower level guys have zero chance of killing a clan that has better gear. What can we do to help those mid-tier casual players to be able to actually kill a stacked super clan?

One of my ideas was to buff mages again, as in make mages super deadly. Mages are so under powered in this game. They difficult soloing due to lack of hp, and at lvl 10 you have to leave your group for the mage quest which is definitely challenging for newer or mid-tier players. I think as a reward for playing a "glass cannon" class that requires extra questing just to play, is that they should ACTUALLY be cannons.

One change to mages I propose is to buff fireball (and coldsnap). In the books, Raistlin owns people with fireball. It is not some shit spell, when he casts it, people melt. I like the fact that its 3rd circle and it should stay that way but I think the damage should be something like caster_level * 1d6. That way a lvl 30 mage is fireballing for 30-180 prior to buffs or spell mod and enemy saving throws.

This would allow for casual clans who cant spam cyan for pws to still have a fighting chance, especially in ambushes. Imagine a RISE 8 man doin whatever PvE and BROG clan walks in with a pk anbush group with a few non legend superb bashers and non legend mages (all actually being glass_cannons like the class was meant to be) and entry area. In that scenario you dont need the legend\cyan grind to be pvp viable. That group could totally smash anybody under the right circumstances. Us Rise would actually have something to fear and wouldn't be able to war the entire mud without in game consequences (im not talkin about immortal intervention).

The major advantage of this change would that legend would no longer be required for pk. Also it would allow for people to roll "unknowns" like the old days and create an "unknown" ambush group. That used to be a great way to turn the tide of clan wars 15 years ago.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 15, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
While I'm all for buffing mages, something like that would undoubtedly result in all PK battles being  5-6 mages and a basher and healing class. That ambush scenario would work once or twice and then the clan who got demolished by mages would just make their own group of mages and all fights would just be swapping casting level gear back and forth.

The damage fireball does isn't necessarily bad, but I think it should be s focused spell and possibly chance to ignite the targets. Also, a comp casted cold snap could have a chance to hold person someone for 1-3 rounds.


I know that's not what anyone wants to talk about......I just got excited when someone mentioned buffing mages!  And I just started to reread Time of the Twins this evening.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Caine on November 15, 2020, 06:34:25 AM
Let me give some of my thoughts from a Myth player's standpoint.

The majority of our players, to my knowledge, play only for the PvE aspect. Personally, I get the most enjoyment out of exploring new zones, because nobody (save maybe the creators) really knows what shinies or interesting fights lie inside when it is newly added. Old players won't have any walkthroughs stashed away for new zones like they might for older ones - it's new content, after all. If I see someone with a shiny item from a new zone, I usually appreciate that they have dabbled in the zone very recently, and not just been handed a guide from some high imm's info vault from 15 years ago.

Now what makes these new zones so enjoyable? Sure, it can be fun to solve puzzles, but what players are really going to remember are the loads. Oh boy the loads. If they're trash, no one is going to want to run your zone more than a handful of times at most. No offense to the creators, but there is a reason why Shadow Isles and Rigitt are run so much now compared to zones like Farholm/Trade or other low zones. When was the last time anyone here visited Sandy Cove?

There is a balance between puzzle/zone difficulty and gear loads. If I'm solving something as tricky as Mora or Alma then i'd sure as hell hope that it gives me something nice. And in low or mid zones, that just isnt the case most of the time. I solved a puzzle in a certain zone this wipe and all I got was a ring that was a light! Nice, but not something worth repeated visits to a zone for. This of course is also part of the problem. The expectation of good rewards is what kept me running certain zones instead of others. Over and over and over. I ran Shadow Isles 20 times looking for a certain robe, that I may not have gotten, but knowing that I could potentially get it next run kept me going back.

PK is currently almost nonexistent. This means that almost everyone in this thread that is campaigning for limited PK is very close to the type of player I just described. They explore zones, solve puzzles, and find their own shinies, perhaps get something from the world merchant every once in a while, and slowly work their way up. It is also clear from past discussions that many of these players who spend their hours solving a puzzle or loading a good set of items just do not have the tolerance anymore to put up with losing it all in a very short time. Even without PK, many players in Myth just quit for a while if they lose their gear. We just had one person almost quit because they lost their gear in a foom (only to be saved by a friendly imm) and another person who quit shortly thereafter after falling into a DT.

For all intents and purposes, at least from what I have seen in Myth, the gear loss and associated time investment to get it back is what causes these people to quit. The way they died would have been irrelevant, whether by PK or by their own fault.

If there was some way to limit gear loss on death (and maybe even rank/XP loss with respect to PK), that might stop people from quitting entirely if PK were reintroduced and they were to be killed. One suggestion I thought of was perhaps making an ATTUNED version of current class sets that could persist through death. There would have to be some brainstorming like how to acquire these items or if any progression would be needed like current medals (or perhaps if they would just function like normal set pieces with no stats right out of the box). They could even mesh with current "real" set items, so if you got lucky and found a 2damroll blue phoenix helm, you could wear it with 3 attuned armor and it could give you the 4-piece bonus. Then if you decayed the real piece you could just retrieve your no-stat attuned helm to get back to 4 piece bonus, and off you go again. Maybe debuff the set bonuses slightly and buff the individual "real" Set pieces so that they couldn't roll blank for stats to facilitate having a reason to keep popping them.
In this way people can still kill you but you'll always have something to fall back on. This also solves the issue of people wanting to have a serviceable set without having to grind zones for a few hours before being zone ready.

Only issue I really see with this is the way of the Trash Mage. You could add a cooldown like the "life force sags" messaging that could block the attuned items from giving CL as a set bonus for X period after a death if this were an issue, but seeing as how mages can already reach 28 CL solely from major city shop gear and ranks, I don't know if this is as much of a problem as I believe it to be.

Another issue is how you would get people to continue zoning when gear is less of an issue. Brainstorming the ramifications would definitely be required.

I went on a little too long I suppose, but let me know what you think. Thoughts welcomed. Thanks!
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Tajs on November 15, 2020, 11:13:31 AM
Oh, the joys of forumwars and textrage! Brings back memories :D

On the subject of glass canon mages, they were back in the day and they would force 12man zoning groups to innsit due to the risk vs reward - naked trash mages taking out a zoning group - it frankly sucked! These days you can just drop a healing cloud or a healing wave and more or less negate area damage (apart from tornado).
Measure tried: Sheafs were tried and discarded thankfully! now we got CL ..which is at least a better solution, but not really needed since magebombing isn't really that viable with current pk damage - I don't know if you can scale the pk dam between each class? or melee and spelldamage? to at least balance spelldamage vs healing (healing is winning atm)

Bringing back 180dam fireballing naked mages would just create 8 man mage groups walking in and doing around 800dam area on entry... seriously?? Would be a sure way to get ppl quit for sure! ..that said I love mages and would like to see them play a bigger role in groups, but I'd rather see divine spells implemented for mages and other tweaks of current spells and spell availability
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on November 15, 2020, 02:12:36 PM
One change I would like to see and have enjoyed on other muds I've played. Visible damage! It's so much fun seeing how much damage you actually do. Specifically for spells.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Alecto on November 15, 2020, 02:52:15 PM
Wow. So much post! So many anger!

To take this back to the original ideas:

Single-stats objects = unlimited: I have no problem with this, but they SHOULD decay with about a 2 week timer in that case. Just run the zone again and pop a new one...running Den of Thieves once every two weeks is not a huge inconvenience.

Free rent: No. If you decide to take 2 weeks off then you should drop the shit in your inventory. It is not that hard to coin. Run CT. Like Dave Ramsey says: act your WAGE - if you can't afford it, don't keep it.

Gear decay - this is the tricky one, and I am not party to the changes Kholos and Anista have planned, but the items that are limit 4 or less should decay, and players should have a chance to load them when they run zones. How you balance making sure SOMETHING worth having loads when you run Pax while also not spending 100% of your time just chasing decays is difficult.

Spell loads - I agree with some of this. I had a rank 25 druid 8 days into the wipe, then quit playing it because of spell load issues. All spell required for legend should be at least 50% load rate on those mobs. Spells that aren't required for legend can be lower: at some point you need to realize that not everyone is going to need "Zombie Double" (ok, maybe no one...). A few people are on a quest to get every spell, for their own satisfaction - that group is pretty small, maybe 3 people, and making significant changes to appease those three seems like timely poorly spent by an overstretched staff.

Multiplaying - I have always thought the rules on this should change to reflect the reality of the game and the average number of players logging per hour. The first 6 months of the wipe should be a VERY strict 2 person limit. However, as the ennui kicks in and people leave the game, and average players online drops below 20 per hour the limit should be relaxed to 4. If AVERAGE players online drops to below 10 there should no longer be a limit to how many multis can be played, with the understanding that if that brings a bunch of people back and the average goes back up to 20 per hour it should be reduced to 4 again. That sort of stuff can be tricky to enforce, but it should reflect the reality of the game.

Wipes - I have suggested this before. I think Arctic should wipe twice per year. The "Labor Day" wipe is a normal wipe which runs 9 months, the "Memorial Day" wipe would be a chaos wipe where all new content gets put into the game to beta test, all pk and multi limits are removed, and new ideas for game play are tested out. People play less during the summer (when there is not a global pandemic, that is) and that would allow a streamlining for zone creation timetables, etc. while also letting Kholos and Anista play with the dials a little bit. It would also let the pk fans finally have the Arctic from the 90s back, for about 3 months a year. If you don't want to play during that time, no problem, go grill some steaks and enjoy the great outdoors!

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
valete omnes!
Alecto
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: eddiex on November 15, 2020, 05:19:33 PM
To avoid trash mage brigades but improve the damage it's simple. This can even be applied to other area casters as well.

Add group class diversity bonus/penalty. The more diverse group the greater the bonus effects. The more homogeneous makes negative penalties.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 15, 2020, 06:07:47 PM
Oh, the joys of forumwars and textrage! Brings back memories :D

On the subject of glass canon mages, they were back in the day and they would force 12man zoning groups to innsit due to the risk vs reward - naked trash mages taking out a zoning group - it frankly sucked! These days you can just drop a healing cloud or a healing wave and more or less negate area damage (apart from tornado).
Measure tried: Sheafs were tried and discarded thankfully! now we got CL ..which is at least a better solution, but not really needed since magebombing isn't really that viable with current pk damage - I don't know if you can scale the pk dam between each class? or melee and spelldamage? to at least balance spelldamage vs healing (healing is winning atm)

Bringing back 180dam fireballing naked mages would just create 8 man mage groups walking in and doing around 800dam area on entry... seriously?? Would be a sure way to get ppl quit for sure! ..that said I love mages and would like to see them play a bigger role in groups, but I'd rather see divine spells implemented for mages and other tweaks of current spells and spell availability

I dont want naked mages. Mages require CL still. I mean I remember the wipe when Isabella was single handedly taking out 10 man groups. It forced the russians etc to quit and yes Isabella as a character was as OP as any character that ever existed. However, that wipe there was plenty of pk, and while dealing with isabella was difficult, other clans could get mages that while they werent AS powerful, they were powerful enough to kill people. There was SOOOOOOO MUCH pk that wipe and I probably got killed over 20 times in pvp battles. I hated losing those battles but I never quit BECAUSE I knew I could still have a chance at winning. I dont think I had a more enjoyable wipe in this game. In that scenario, the spell nightmare was a nuclear weapon. Every clan was able to pop nightmare and battle it out. In the current pvp setting, I cant fathom any way any clan will ever be able to kill RISE in the first 2-3 months of the game prior to us quitting. If RISE has all the top end gear, there is no way I can fathom people to kill us and I would consider myself one the foremost experts in PVP on this game. If I cant figure out a way to kill us, then I highly doubt anybody else will, nor will have the time\willingness to go to through the lengths it would take to do so.

If people want the pvp aspect to be fun, there needs to be some way for a smart\savvy players to be able to kill somebody like RISE without dedicated 5+ months of grinding. If people do not like my "buffing fireball" idea, I am ok with that. Also take into consideration that there are many ways to counter fireball so its really not as OP as it may seem. But please come up with ways that the immortals could help the current pvp situation. People cannot complain about RISE and then offer no solutions to the PK disparity outside of "please RISE dont pk us". Thats reeeaaaallly not how the game was ever meant to be played. I think if RISE piss off enough people, those people should be able to have a method to kill us. That would add diplomacy back into this game which hasnt been required since nightmare got nerfed.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 15, 2020, 07:23:14 PM
As the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be in PvP, zone knowledge, leading and soloing, I think it's safe to see PK wars are long gone and I'm glad I ended up the best

I just don't ever see this game being what it used to be. You can come up with any kind of solution and someone is going to poke a hole in it. There's no one or multiple solution that's going to bring back what Arctic was. It's evolved and moved on.  The player base mostly grew up and  as Roger Murtaugh, portrayed by the award winning actor Danny Glover once said "I'm getting too old for this shit."

While I do enjoy the enthusiasm and ideas floating around, I just don't think it's going to make any difference on how people want to play this game.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on November 15, 2020, 07:24:30 PM
You guys surpassed my pk skill long long ago. And even CORE at times uses threats or sometimes took action in order to get eq from people. It isn't just a RISE problem. And if I sit and think about it. It isn't really the time either. Because first month of wipe or whatever, everyone has groups on. Almost everyone has a group fielded 24/7 to some extent. You guys just take it to the extreme with at the very least an 8 man seemingly 24/7. Myth for example. Will have sometimes 15 or 20 people on first month of wipe. But that isn't 24/7.

Myself. There are times where I can log on for 5 hours straight or on a weekend when I am not doing anything with the kids etc. sometimes I might pop in an out all day long. Play for 2-3hours, log for an hour or 2 then play another 2-3 hours. Etc.

It comes down to the tenacity of the people involved. I just don't have it anymore. Not against a winner take all mentality. I would be more than willing to step into an arena situation.

Tenacity comes into play for counters as well. i have no inclination to sit and wait in menu and organize people like you guys do. I have no willingness to stage a well planned ambush 2-3 days in advance and try to wait for that right time. Like i said before. I just like to log when I want to log and play when I want to play and bounce. Period.

It is 100% about losing gear and power. Most players don't want to take a chance and lose the eq they spent weeks collecting. But, people do get strong enough to fight you guys. I don't buy into the "we're untouchable" idea. Someone could step into the ring with Tyson and lose 999 times out of a 1000. But there's always that 1 chance. That being said. What then? Lets say that group take you out. They get the big score. The chances of them wanting to or even being willing to put in type of time to maintain any of that is so bapting low. So it becomes not worth it.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 15, 2020, 08:09:44 PM
You guys surpassed my pk skill long long ago. And even CORE at times uses threats or sometimes took action in order to get eq from people. It isn't just a RISE problem. And if I sit and think about it. It isn't really the time either. Because first month of wipe or whatever, everyone has groups on. Almost everyone has a group fielded 24/7 to some extent. You guys just take it to the extreme with at the very least an 8 man seemingly 24/7. Myth for example. Will have sometimes 15 or 20 people on first month of wipe. But that isn't 24/7.

Myself. There are times where I can log on for 5 hours straight or on a weekend when I am not doing anything with the kids etc. sometimes I might pop in an out all day long. Play for 2-3hours, log for an hour or 2 then play another 2-3 hours. Etc.

It comes down to the tenacity of the people involved. I just don't have it anymore. Not against a winner take all mentality. I would be more than willing to step into an arena situation.

Tenacity comes into play for counters as well. i have no inclination to sit and wait in menu and organize people like you guys do. I have no willingness to stage a well planned ambush 2-3 days in advance and try to wait for that right time. Like i said before. I just like to log when I want to log and play when I want to play and bounce. Period.

It is 100% about losing gear and power. Most players don't want to take a chance and lose the eq they spent weeks collecting. But, people do get strong enough to fight you guys. I don't buy into the "we're untouchable" idea. Someone could step into the ring with Tyson and lose 999 times out of a 1000. But there's always that 1 chance. That being said. What then? Lets say that group take you out. They get the big score. The chances of them wanting to or even being willing to put in type of time to maintain any of that is so bapting low. So it becomes not worth it.

Ok so lets say hypothetically speaking that the imms did implement some method to prevent power loss from pk death on top of the ones that already exist (legend\ranks\medal). And you didnt have to wait 3 days to ambush, you could just grab 3 friends online and go battle, what in your opinion would be ways to make the pvp more enjoyable with the lesser equipped side still having a chance at winning?
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Malthros on November 15, 2020, 09:07:31 PM
I'm not sure where this turned into a RISE gangbang. The subject is Game Ideas. I also only played for 2-3 months this wipe. I quit. I've quit sooner and for longer periods of time each wipe for the last 2-3 wipes. Idk. It could be my lack of interest in exploring things. Could be because things like icewall got revamped after I had explore it. Things like qualinesti being changed into what it is now. Instead of just adding a new zone. Why keep revamping shit. Just add new shit? Quali was a good zone. Icewall was a good zone.

New Icewall is fine overall.  A few aspects of it are design decisions I'm not a fan of  since it makes exploration a massive PITA (unless you get lucky with some RNG in which case congrats) but I'm also of the mind that a zone really only should get revamped if there's something wrong with it or if you're adding to the existing zone because it's tiny and there's little to nothing there currently, like the Plains of Dust which are interesting now and I can't recall anything worthwhile about the old version.  Relearning the routes For Tarsis/Balifor/Neraka was a minor annoyance but at least everyone* had to do it.


* Aside from the imms who made those changes but I imagine if any of them rushed they weren't leading groups.

Nice post Jorake.

I have logged on 2 nights running to see both times there has been only 1 person online. Around 9 am system time maybe.

9AM UTC means most of Europe is at work and the US is asleep.  I see 15-20 on during early/afternoon for the US usually.  Sometimes more.  Occasionally less.

One of my ideas was to buff mages again, as in make mages super deadly. Mages are so under powered in this game. They difficult soloing due to lack of hp, and at lvl 10 you have to leave your group for the mage quest which is definitely challenging for newer or mid-tier players. I think as a reward for playing a "glass cannon" class that requires extra questing just to play, is that they should ACTUALLY be cannons.

The wipe when robed mages were added because mages were shit-wrecking monsters (and still died quickly under any sort of heavy damage) and they felt more like 'real' mages because of it.  They were extremely imbalanced and you had groups with 3-4 mages melt fights in several rounds but it felt closer to what one should expect a mage to do when focused on offense.  If a group says "hey we need a bunch of damage for this fight" their #1 pick should be a spelled mage unless it's a nomagic fight.  That wipe felt closest to what mage offense "should" be.

Fireball should still cap out at 10d6 or whatever (there are other AOEs that could be added at higher tiers for non-black robes while buffing theirs) but PWS should be removed from the game, with nightmare actually being a sleep effect instead of its current (unique?) super stun effect, or let free action remove/block it.  Replace PWS with Meteor Swarm, give it a setup like you cast swarm without a target it's an AOE and if you target with it then it's a multi-hit spell vs that target with the chance of splash damage to nearby (non-party) members.  A mage's best offensive spell should put granite hands to shame, not the other way around. 

For dealing with the issue of magebombs, again, PWS removal and nightmare nerf would help.  Tweak spell damage in pvp if necessary or have mages deal an additional 50% less damage to players for X rounds after casting relocate.  Mages need to deal proper damage in general and if they're "weak" in pvp but strong otherwise that'd still be an improvement over their current state.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Anista on November 15, 2020, 09:57:16 PM
But please come up with ways that the immortals could help the current pvp situation. People cannot complain about RISE and then offer no solutions to the PK disparity outside of "please RISE dont pk us". Thats reeeaaaallly not how the game was ever meant to be played. I think if RISE piss off enough people, those people should be able to have a method to kill us.

Ok so lets say hypothetically speaking that the imms did implement some method to prevent power loss from pk death on top of the ones that already exist (legend\ranks\medal). And you didnt have to wait 3 days to ambush, you could just grab 3 friends online and go battle, what in your opinion would be ways to make the pvp more enjoyable with the lesser equipped side still having a chance at winning?

I do not feel the need to moderate here, but I'd like to restate this:  Arctic is an open world "player kill" (PK) game, which allows full loot of corpses.

While the current administration supports open world PK, we do not allow 'griefing' of players after PK has occurred. I have not seen RISE or any other clan grief players in at least the past few wipes, if ever. Feel free to email any logs to anista@arcticmud.org if you have proof of violation. As long as the rules are followed, we see no reason to intervene or change anything. See HELP PK and HELP LAW.

With that out the way, the staff is open to ideas for making open world PK more enjoyable for the masses, but to be clear, "arenas" are not viewed as a suitable replacement to world PK. (We do have arena plans, but that is not our biggest priority at the current time.)
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on November 15, 2020, 09:57:36 PM
I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Or I wasn't clear enough. Idk.

There should be loss for pvp. There should be a gain for the winner. That IS Arctic. Arctic was pretty much built on having to have a team around you to prevail. Run your mouth? Get stomped. Kill someones buddy or unknown. Get stomped. I am not advocating to do away with pk. And I'm also not saying there shouldn't be a gain.

I'm simply saying for me personally. It's why I don't really like pk anymore. I just don't enjoy that type of play. I've said countless times "lets just go bash that bapters face into the dirt" For whatever thing. I usually settle down very shortly after but still. The sentiment is there. But the desire isn't. It could be that the broad scale competition is just more than I'm willing to put the effort in to try and handle.

I honestly don't know what the solution is. My best advice to imms would be throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Set up an arena weekend. Setup something else. Do trial and error.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 15, 2020, 10:02:08 PM
But please come up with ways that the immortals could help the current pvp situation. People cannot complain about RISE and then offer no solutions to the PK disparity outside of "please RISE dont pk us". Thats reeeaaaallly not how the game was ever meant to be played. I think if RISE piss off enough people, those people should be able to have a method to kill us.

Ok so lets say hypothetically speaking that the imms did implement some method to prevent power loss from pk death on top of the ones that already exist (legend\ranks\medal). And you didnt have to wait 3 days to ambush, you could just grab 3 friends online and go battle, what in your opinion would be ways to make the pvp more enjoyable with the lesser equipped side still having a chance at winning?

I do not feel the need to moderate here, but I'd like to restate this:  Arctic is an open world "player kill" (PK) game, which allows full loot of corpses.

While the current administration supports open world PK, we do not allow 'griefing' of players after PK has occurred. I have not seen RISE or any other clan grief players in at least the past few wipes, if ever. Feel free to email any logs to anista@arcticmud.org if you have proof of violation. As long as the rules are followed, we see no reason to intervene or change anything. See HELP PK and HELP LAW.

With that out the way, the staff is open to ideas for making open world PK more enjoyable for the masses, but to be clear, "arenas" are not viewed as a suitable replacement to world PK. (We do have arena plans, but that is not our biggest priority at the current time.)

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Or I wasn't clear enough. Idk.

There should be loss for pvp. There should be a gain for the winner. That IS Arctic. Arctic was pretty much built on having to have a team around you to prevail. Run your mouth? Get stomped. Kill someones buddy or unknown. Get stomped. I am not advocating to do away with pk. And I'm also not saying there shouldn't be a gain.

I'm simply saying for me personally. It's why I don't really like pk anymore. I just don't enjoy that type of play. I've said countless times "lets just go bash that bapters face into the dirt" For whatever thing. I usually settle down very shortly after but still. The sentiment is there. But the desire isn't. It could be that the broad scale competition is just more than I'm willing to put the effort in to try and handle.

I honestly don't know what the solution is. My best advice to imms would be throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Set up an arena weekend. Setup something else. Do trial and error.

Ok thank you for the responses. I have a new idea that I'm going to make a new thread about in game discussion and I do not want to hijack this one.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lyam on November 16, 2020, 01:10:25 AM
wow, so much whining and nothing to do with the topic! (hate rise! die rise, die!)

unlimited eq and lowering the load %... such a horrible idea.. this was tried once before on the less unique items and it absolutely sucked donkey balls. the load % were so low you would spend 3 days spamming a zone to load the item just to have it decay 2weeks later.. yeah no thanks.. its bad enough now days spamming a zone for 2days to load that badass unique item. increasing the limit on items will just make a clan have more of said items.. sure another clan might be able to get in and load some, but the badass items will get spammed by 1 or 2 clans still leaving castoffs to the small clans... if there was some way to police that a clan only have 1 of the items... then sure increase the limits otherwise you gonna see shld/core/rise running around with multiple tanks and casters wearing the exact same eq, etc, etc

the norent decay i would love, as i work away for a week at a time so can only phone log to check decays, but again you would get people loading the best eq in the game and then deeprenting, only logging every now and then to stock up on coins. but asking for this is unrealistic.. maybe lower the rent decay timers?? or kick them in once a person hasnt logged on for a week?? so .5% rent decay for a week, then increase the rent decay each week they are not active, and by active i dont mean logging on and innsitting for 5mins.. no idea on how hard this would be to code or implement but im guessing it would be near impossible

pk debate.. ppl love pk or hate it.. rise have toned down their pk a lot since they formed.. dont enjoy the win at all costs or giving a clan a week or 2 to regear just to smash them again.. yay for you, you smashed a clan... pat yourselves on the back for a good job in loading the right eq and executing the right plan to win the fight, now back off and let the poor clan re-eq enough to actually give you a fight.. you already looted all their good eq so they are running around trying to load something half decent... for them to get to anywhere near an even keel, they will need a lot more than shop bought enchanted weapons... yeah you give them peace for 2weeks.. to what?? spam naked zones for 2weeks?? yay for you to then beat up on them again to lose maybe their 1 good item they managed to load in that 2weeks.. you all talk about "the old days".. well back then clans didnt beat up on a person soloing.. i remember bsp actually inviting vespin into their group cause he was running around solo... that is how it should be... wild and bsp would organise a spot to fight on the day.. not spend 2weeks preping then to call the other clan bitches cause they wouldnt fight (this stuff happened later on).. sure there were ambushes and other shit, but normally each clan would let the other to regroup and re-eq.. back then 2weeks was enough cause not many ppl led the zones so could repop stuff and everyone had no lives then so they could zone 18hrs a day to get back on track.. dont know how to fix this, but regular tournies would be a good way to show ppl your strength with prizes for winners.. an arena where you can battle and the leaders pick an item of equal value to "bet" on the outcome.. or can just not be dicks and give ppl more time to recover when you do pk them or not loot everything, just take a couple of items, leave them some of their badass items that is!.. yes that would be taking away an aspect of the game you love, but then it might work out in the long term that ppl would be more willing to fight you.

reincarnations: love it, but then i stopped at r4... kinda wanted to do another but that was just for the extra rank points not for the stats.. reincarnation has made a lot of items redundant or the +stats on them which i think is a bad thing.. now you have tanks being 28str 28dex 28con, casters being 28int 28wis and half decent con so they dont really need the stats, they are using items for the bonuses (+dam, +slots, etc) reducing the stat bonus per each reincarnation would help this.. i dont know make it every 2nd reincarnation give you a +1stat, not every reincarnation giving you +2stat.  i also havent noticed that saves have really improved.. an r6 char gets held/stunned/etc just as much as r0.. maybe the saves part needs to be looked at


Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorquin on November 16, 2020, 01:39:54 AM
Objectively, RISE have been a lot less murderous the last few wipes. In fact, I'd say they've been pretty reasonable.

There's something I never thought I'd say...
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Malthros on November 16, 2020, 02:45:58 AM
the norent decay i would love, as i work away for a week at a time so can only phone log to check decays, but again you would get people loading the best eq in the game and then deeprenting, only logging every now and then to stock up on coins. but asking for this is unrealistic.. maybe lower the rent decay timers?? or kick them in once a person hasnt logged on for a week?? so .5% rent decay for a week, then increase the rent decay each week they are not active, and by active i dont mean logging on and innsitting for 5mins.. no idea on how hard this would be to code or implement but im guessing it would be near impossible

IMO, rent decay should be exponential, maybe affected offset by high amounts of activity on a character to some degree.  IE:  If you don't log in for 7 days you've built up X decay on gear, 8 days is 1.5X, 10 days is 5X...etc.  Logging in for 30 seconds wouldn't reset it but being online for awhile and killing some stuff (clear a high lvl zone or w/e) would.  Coding resources are likely tied up on higher impact/priority tasks than rewriting the code for renting.

Then remove rent decay for mid tier gear and lower (this seems to be in place for a bunch of stuff atm anyways) and all nolim items because is anyone going to care if someone rents for 2 months and has a bunch of clear crystal gear or a class set?  No, but that dragonlance or lim 1-2 elite gear they have should rent decay far faster than if they were playing regularly.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Tajs on November 16, 2020, 08:23:37 PM
Oh and while I remember it - bringing back +skill ranks would be great!
+5 rescue for a maintank is like +5conc for a healer - I just don't see why it isn't an option??
Not to mention +bash, kick, backstab, charge, assail etc etc before legend ranks

PS: And remove spell mod ranks or make it reaaaaaaaaaally expensive - 15rp or so ( higher chance of failing a save is too strong a bonus compared to what it cost) - keep spell damage and penetration
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on November 16, 2020, 09:17:26 PM
Oh and while I remember it - bringing back +skill ranks would be great!
+5 rescue for a maintank is like +5conc for a healer - I just don't see why it isn't an option??
Not to mention +bash, kick, backstab, charge, assail etc etc before legend ranks

PS: And remove spell mod ranks or make it reaaaaaaaaaally expensive - 15rp or so ( higher chance of failing a save is too strong a bonus compared to what it cost) - keep spell damage and penetration

this one please.  one fight this wipe - fail rescue x2, fail breach x2, give up and let the cleric tank the fight.

how can that happen to a legendary barb?  26+ dex btw.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: khuran10 on November 17, 2020, 12:16:33 PM
the norent decay i would love, as i work away for a week at a time so can only phone log to check decays, but again you would get people loading the best eq in the game and then deeprenting, only logging every now and then to stock up on coins. but asking for this is unrealistic.. maybe lower the rent decay timers?? or kick them in once a person hasnt logged on for a week?? so .5% rent decay for a week, then increase the rent decay each week they are not active, and by active i dont mean logging on and innsitting for 5mins.. no idea on how hard this would be to code or implement but im guessing it would be near impossible

IMO, rent decay should be exponential, maybe affected offset by high amounts of activity on a character to some degree.  IE:  If you don't log in for 7 days you've built up X decay on gear, 8 days is 1.5X, 10 days is 5X...etc.  Logging in for 30 seconds wouldn't reset it but being online for awhile and killing some stuff (clear a high lvl zone or w/e) would.  Coding resources are likely tied up on higher impact/priority tasks than rewriting the code for renting.

Then remove rent decay for mid tier gear and lower (this seems to be in place for a bunch of stuff atm anyways) and all nolim items because is anyone going to care if someone rents for 2 months and has a bunch of clear crystal gear or a class set?  No, but that dragonlance or lim 1-2 elite gear they have should rent decay far faster than if they were playing regularly.

Agree, the longer limit 1-2 items stay rented, the faster they should decay.  I remember early this wipe some people were deep renting the Wymslayer.  You know who you are.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Malthros on November 22, 2020, 03:30:47 PM
Oh and while I remember it - bringing back +skill ranks would be great!
+5 rescue for a maintank is like +5conc for a healer - I just don't see why it isn't an option??
Not to mention +bash, kick, backstab, charge, assail etc etc before legend ranks

PS: And remove spell mod ranks or make it reaaaaaaaaaally expensive - 15rp or so ( higher chance of failing a save is too strong a bonus compared to what it cost) - keep spell damage and penetration

this one please.  one fight this wipe - fail rescue x2, fail breach x2, give up and let the cleric tank the fight.

how can that happen to a legendary barb?  26+ dex btw.

How can it happen?  Because breach is buggy and awful while rescue rng is a cruel mistress.

Replace breach with an aoe taunt (give it a cool down of a few tics). Or at least give failed breach zero lag.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Valenore on November 24, 2020, 08:00:28 PM
i just dont think pvp is very good in arctic. 

This is the right answer.  Arctic is a low skill cap game as far as actual character control goes.  That is an unfortunate and inherent restriction in it being text based.  There is no spatial movement to consider and most combat can be boiled down to deciding every second or two between one of 3 or 4 reasonable actions.  That is why it is so easy to script a good bots for Arctic.  That is also why "arena" or "tournaments" in Arctic aren't as fun.

Instead, the advantage in Arctic is driven by resource acquisition (gear/spells/ranks).  Resource acquisition in turn is driven by play time and game knowledge (with game knowledge also being derived from play time).  The more time you spend playing and the more you know how to do, the more gear and spells you will have.  Once you have a competitive advantage, you can compound that advantage by using it to limit other's resource acquisition by limiting their play time. 

In the "good old days", this wasn't as much of an issue.  There were many more people playing creating a hierarchy you could climb through.  There were not nearly as many options of other games 20 years ago.  No group limits allowed the potential to fight back against dominant groups which often had less players.  The allure of gaining another players equipment and the panic of losing all yours was more fun when you were 17 instead of 37.   

Now most people who want to PvP are going to play a skill based game and are content seeing some ranking go up or down as they win or lose based on how good they are at the game and not whether they played the 5x as much as the other person.
P
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on November 30, 2020, 04:00:11 AM
i just dont think pvp is very good in arctic. 

This is the right answer.  Arctic is a low skill cap game as far as actual character control goes.  That is an unfortunate and inherent restriction in it being text based.  There is no spatial movement to consider and most combat can be boiled down to deciding every second or two between one of 3 or 4 reasonable actions.  That is why it is so easy to script a good bots for Arctic.  That is also why "arena" or "tournaments" in Arctic aren't as fun.

Instead, the advantage in Arctic is driven by resource acquisition (gear/spells/ranks).  Resource acquisition in turn is driven by play time and game knowledge (with game knowledge also being derived from play time).  The more time you spend playing and the more you know how to do, the more gear and spells you will have.  Once you have a competitive advantage, you can compound that advantage by using it to limit other's resource acquisition by limiting their play time. 

In the "good old days", this wasn't as much of an issue.  There were many more people playing creating a hierarchy you could climb through.  There were not nearly as many options of other games 20 years ago.  No group limits allowed the potential to fight back against dominant groups which often had less players.  The allure of gaining another players equipment and the panic of losing all yours was more fun when you were 17 instead of 37.   

Now most people who want to PvP are going to play a skill based game and are content seeing some ranking go up or down as they win or lose based on how good they are at the game and not whether they played the 5x as much as the other person.
P

If arctic is so low skill pvp then why do we not see any low skill players getting kills in pk? it takes years to become a skilled arctic pvper lol. You can be top tier in any fps game or moba in months. I'd argue that the skill cap for pvp is so HIGH in arctic that it makes it impossible for most to even participate
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on November 30, 2020, 09:58:55 AM
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Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on November 30, 2020, 03:42:20 PM
"If arctic is so low skill pvp then why do we not see any low skill players getting kills in pk? it takes years to become a skilled arctic pvper lol. You can be top tier in any fps game or moba in months. I'd argue that the skill cap for pvp is so HIGH in arctic that it makes it impossible for most to even participate"


A. Low skill players don't participate in PK in Arctic
B. It takes a lot of natural talent to become top tier in any FPS/MOBA game
C. All of this boils down to Game Knowledge

The 'skill cap' is so high in Arctic because of the game knowledge/mechanics people know and understand. I don't necessarily think PK is hard in Arctic, more precisely, it's not hard when ambushing unsuspecting groups of players. Once both sides know there is a fight happening, then it comes down to game knowledge and prep, when/where to fight and when/where to hide.
I'm not saying it's easy or hard, it's just peoples willingness to translate their game knowledge/mechanics to wanting to PK which a lot of people just don't want to do anymore.


Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on November 30, 2020, 06:41:48 PM
yeah i think there definitely can be a lot skill in planning/executing an attack against a dangerous prepared opponent in world pvp.  but the actual combat....

i used to successfully pkill all the time!  in haven forest and the palanthas graveyard.  and it definitely did not take a lot of skill.  it only took unsuspecting low level opponents, overwhelming force, and the willingness to be a complete asshole.

and sadly that is how almost all pvp in arctic is imo.  its very rarely a boxing match between two skilled opponents.  its more like a much bigger kid beating the shit out of some scrawny nerd and taking his lunch money.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Valenore on December 02, 2020, 03:13:31 AM
I'd argue that the skill cap for pvp is so HIGH in arctic that it makes it impossible for most to even participate

Plenty of "low skill players" have had tons of "kills in pk" over the years.  Those kills were against equally (or lesser) equipped and leveled characters.  I would imagine (at least back when there was a larger player base) most people have experienced their lower ranked/spelled/equipped alt being killed by some character that they then stomped with their main character.  I have certainly been on both sides of that situation.  Did that same player somehow have "lower skill" on their alt or did the gear/spells/ranks they had with their main make a massive difference in how effective they were in PK?

The problem is you are still conflating "skill" (difficulty in the actual act of controlling your character) with game knowledge/playtime. 
It takes years to gather the game knowledge to effectively know how to collect gear, spells, and ranks. 

I'd argue that the skill cap for pvp is so HIGH in arctic that it makes it impossible for most to even participate

Yeah, that is just silly.   The actual combat part of Arctic (especially PvP) is just simple scripting.  If you are a decked out mage, what do you do in PvP?  It is a simple decision tree:  Heal yourself if you have prep and are low health, stand if sitting, otherwise cast your most effective area spell.   If you are a warrior, what do you do in PvP?  Punch/Bash the highest threat caster (or whatever target you may have).  And so on...

What is so high in Arctic that makes it impossible for most to participate is the gear, spell, and rank cap... at least when we are comparing your average player to your diehards.


You can be top tier in any fps game or moba in months

Exactly!  Because it is skill based and not based on how much time or specific game knowledge you have about a particular game. 
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on December 02, 2020, 04:42:00 PM
I'd argue that the skill cap for pvp is so HIGH in arctic that it makes it impossible for most to even participate

Plenty of "low skill players" have had tons of "kills in pk" over the years.  Those kills were against equally (or lesser) equipped and leveled characters.  I would imagine (at least back when there was a larger player base) most people have experienced their lower ranked/spelled/equipped alt being killed by some character that they then stomped with their main character.  I have certainly been on both sides of that situation.  Did that same player somehow have "lower skill" on their alt or did the gear/spells/ranks they had with their main make a massive difference in how effective they were in PK?

The problem is you are still conflating "skill" (difficulty in the actual act of controlling your character) with game knowledge/playtime. 
It takes years to gather the game knowledge to effectively know how to collect gear, spells, and ranks. 

I'd argue that the skill cap for pvp is so HIGH in arctic that it makes it impossible for most to even participate

Yeah, that is just silly.   The actual combat part of Arctic (especially PvP) is just simple scripting.  If you are a decked out mage, what do you do in PvP?  It is a simple decision tree:  Heal yourself if you have prep and are low health, stand if sitting, otherwise cast your most effective area spell.   If you are a warrior, what do you do in PvP?  Punch/Bash the highest threat caster (or whatever target you may have).  And so on...

What is so high in Arctic that makes it impossible for most to participate is the gear, spell, and rank cap... at least when we are comparing your average player to your diehards.


You can be top tier in any fps game or moba in months

Exactly!  Because it is skill based and not based on how much time or specific game knowledge you have about a particular game. 

Ok again, I am talking about high level pk. You are not so its apples and oranges. Yes any moron can script a group of bashers together and kill somebody or mages can spam prism\nightmare. That is not how high level pvp works in any way, shape or form.

If you go to high level pk with bash triggers or stand prism scripts you are losing 100% of the time. High level pk is the hardest thing to pull of in arctic mud. You have 3 seconds per round and 2-3 pages worth of spam to decipher and then make a decision for your next action.  Its 8v8 (used to be 10v10 and 12v12) chess with a 3 second move timer per person. You can bring scripts to pk yes, but you cannot bring scripts to high level pk and expect to win and if you think so then you have obviously never won a large scale battle vs a real opponent. There are so many facets to high level pk but the problem is there are only historically 10 or less players who have ever played the game that are intelligent enough to have a grasp on it.

I would never bring somebody on scripts to a pk. Just for an example: Basher on scripts: sets pk target with bash triggers... Now what if that person is also hasted and stands and flees. What if that person is a healer who took the white robes hardbash or nobash items and you're just sitting their missing bashes being completely useless. What if your target is a black robe and fluke made you bash your own healer. What if the enemy brought an unknown healer who is just free casting but your group doesnt have anybody to bash him bc everybody is scripted? what if a paladin is guarding your bash target? what do you do then? these are just a few examples that I came up with in 1 min of scenarios I have seen in this game. I would LOVE to see somebody that braindead war RISE with a bunch of scripted pk chars lol. It would never happen bc the war would be over in 1-2 fights.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Valenore on December 03, 2020, 01:41:20 AM
I made the erroneous assumption given you were at least aware of the basic ideas of scripting.  I will admit I am not a great scripter, though I do find it fun since the interface for Arctic is so easy.  Here is my basic approaches to your "high level pk" scenarios, each of which is the exact action a human player would take.

Basher on scripts: sets pk target with bash triggers... Now what if that person is also hasted and stands and flees.

A 3rd grade level script would have a list of targets.  If the highest target on the list is not in the room (i.e. dead, recalled, fled) then you move to the next target.  A 5th grade level script would resume bashing that target if they returned to the room.  The same exact action a human player would take.

What if that person is a healer who took the white robes hardbash or nobash items and you're just sitting their missing bashes being completely useless.

The 3rd grade approach to this is if you miss 2 or 3 bashes in a row, have the script move to the next target in your list.  The same exact action a human player would take.

What if your target is a black robe and fluke made you bash your own healer.

The 3rd grade approach to this is the same as missing bashes... if you are attempting to bash a target and they aren't landing on that target you move to the next target.   The same exact approach a human player would take.

What if the enemy brought an unknown healer who is just free casting but your group doesnt have anybody to bash him bc everybody is scripted?

Wow!  Great point.  Why don't you have a script that makes the highest priority bash target in the room any player casting heal that isn't in your group.  While you are at it, you could even have it auto-prioritize other high impact spells like PWS or nightmare.  The same exact action a human would take. 

what if a paladin is guarding your bash target?

At risk of sounding like a broken record, the simplest way to account for that is if you try to bash a target and fail (or hit something different) a few times in a row then change to your next highest level target.  Now, since we are talking "high level pk" and not low level pk or even mid level pk, if you wanted to be really elite, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to parse the text for the various protection type skills/spells so you corrected the problem first go around.  The same thing a human player would do. 

these are just a few examples that I came up with in 1 min of scenarios I have seen in this game.

If this is the pinnacle of "high level pk",  I think you proved my point.  The character control and decision tree that goes behind it is simple.  You are right in that reading through a wall of text can be difficult though... if that is your definition of skill, you win.

Its 8v8 (used to be 10v10 and 12v12) chess

I think you may be being blinded by your greatness at Arctic.  Since you brought up chess and most people would consider it one of the purest games of skill (which is obviously only because most people haven't heard of "high level pk" in Arctic), maybe it would be more instructive to do a comparison.  I just described scripts that are trivial to come up with that play the game equivalent to a human.  If "high level PK" is like 8v8 chess, take a stab at describing the decision tree behind a fairly simple end-game chess board.   I have a King at F7.  You have your King at D3, a Bishop at G4, and a Pawn at H2.   Describe how to checkmate me...
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: George on December 03, 2020, 02:04:10 AM

If this is the pinnacle of "high level pk",  I think you proved my point.  The character control and decision tree that goes behind it is simple.  You are right in that reading through a wall of text can be difficult though... if that is your definition of skill, you win.


Reading through that wall of text manually is difficult, but, having a script parse it for you, pick out the important information, and taking actions based upon that input makes it REAL easy. I'd venture to say it makes it better, since the script won't miss things a human might.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Kir on December 03, 2020, 04:17:41 AM
Ok. Lets back up a bit. Your argument was that PK in arctic is low skill because people can make bash triggers and stand\prism triggers. I disagreed and gave several examples of why that does work. You then decide to to make a wall of text to explain how one could code all those scenarios into a pk script. I am not arguing the idea that somebody could or could not make a superior pk script that would be better than a group of top players. Everybody on this forum knows that given enough time, a coder could write a pvp script that would be the top pvpers. They did the exact same thing with chess... they wrote a program that can beat the world's best chess players. That does not make chess a low skill game. I dont fathom how one could argue that a hypothetical situation that has never happened invalidates player skill. So if and when somebody ever codes a "super pk bot" and a person uses it, I will agree that person could be low skilled. Until that happens I am going to contend that pvp is high skilled until I am defeated by low-skilled players. God bless.


I made the erroneous assumption given you were at least aware of the basic ideas of scripting.  I will admit I am not a great scripter, though I do find it fun since the interface for Arctic is so easy.  Here is my basic approaches to your "high level pk" scenarios, each of which is the exact action a human player would take.

Basher on scripts: sets pk target with bash triggers... Now what if that person is also hasted and stands and flees.

A 3rd grade level script would have a list of targets.  If the highest target on the list is not in the room (i.e. dead, recalled, fled) then you move to the next target.  A 5th grade level script would resume bashing that target if they returned to the room.  The same exact action a human player would take.

What if that person is a healer who took the white robes hardbash or nobash items and you're just sitting their missing bashes being completely useless.

The 3rd grade approach to this is if you miss 2 or 3 bashes in a row, have the script move to the next target in your list.  The same exact action a human player would take.

What if your target is a black robe and fluke made you bash your own healer.

The 3rd grade approach to this is the same as missing bashes... if you are attempting to bash a target and they aren't landing on that target you move to the next target.   The same exact approach a human player would take.

What if the enemy brought an unknown healer who is just free casting but your group doesnt have anybody to bash him bc everybody is scripted?

Wow!  Great point.  Why don't you have a script that makes the highest priority bash target in the room any player casting heal that isn't in your group.  While you are at it, you could even have it auto-prioritize other high impact spells like PWS or nightmare.  The same exact action a human would take. 

what if a paladin is guarding your bash target?

At risk of sounding like a broken record, the simplest way to account for that is if you try to bash a target and fail (or hit something different) a few times in a row then change to your next highest level target.  Now, since we are talking "high level pk" and not low level pk or even mid level pk, if you wanted to be really elite, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to parse the text for the various protection type skills/spells so you corrected the problem first go around.  The same thing a human player would do. 

these are just a few examples that I came up with in 1 min of scenarios I have seen in this game.

If this is the pinnacle of "high level pk",  I think you proved my point.  The character control and decision tree that goes behind it is simple.  You are right in that reading through a wall of text can be difficult though... if that is your definition of skill, you win.

Its 8v8 (used to be 10v10 and 12v12) chess

I think you may be being blinded by your greatness at Arctic.  Since you brought up chess and most people would consider it one of the purest games of skill (which is obviously only because most people haven't heard of "high level pk" in Arctic), maybe it would be more instructive to do a comparison.  I just described scripts that are trivial to come up with that play the game equivalent to a human.  If "high level PK" is like 8v8 chess, take a stab at describing the decision tree behind a fairly simple end-game chess board.   I have a King at F7.  You have your King at D3, a Bishop at G4, and a Pawn at H2.   Describe how to checkmate me...
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Dafin on December 03, 2020, 09:15:59 AM
You have 3 seconds per round
Actually you have 4 seconds per round. Every good scripter knows that :)
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: el conquistador on December 03, 2020, 10:19:57 AM
i think there is definitely a huge amount of skill required in the planning stages of a high level pvp battle.  a basher does need to know who his good bash targets will be from a lot of scouting and preparation.  and no doubt the greatest players can adjust in the middle of a battle to unexpected circumstances much better than a weak player or even a script.  but i think in 99% of pvp it is not required.

i can remember seeing a log of a high level pvp battle.  im pretty sure it was from the pov of a rise mage even!  it stands out in my mind because i remember as the battle starts he spams 'nightmare' so many times that it says 'You can't remember how to cast that spell!' about 10x.  then he starts spamming tentacles.  it is hard to claim there is much skill in that.

in another log that i initially believed was incredible skill was a battle where a thief was somehow landing stabs on different targets almost every single round.  i was amazed that he could spot out of combat targets in all that chaos and so quickly land those stabs.  but when i thought about it some more, i realized even i could write a trigger for 'core is standing here.' = backstab core.  so all he really had to be doing was fade east;west

i have never been in a large scale pvp battle.  if kir says there is a high level of skill required for parts of it then i believe him.  but it is very hard for me to see it.

Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Jorake on December 03, 2020, 03:54:16 PM
Insert cancel command here. Single best thing this mu has done!
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Lloth on December 03, 2020, 05:49:08 PM
Insert cancel command here. Single best thing this mu has done!

This is the real answer right here. I don't know how many times I 'cancel' in one play session. Personally I feel any script goes against the heart of Arctic and should be frowned upon. I manually alt tab, manually type everything on both of my characters. The only thing I have are aliases for spells. That's it.
Title: Re: Game ideas
Post by: Anista on December 04, 2020, 06:30:35 PM
This thread has been locked, due to it veering off topic many posts ago.