Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => Game Ideas => Topic started by: corey on September 13, 2020, 05:01:52 PM

Title: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: corey on September 13, 2020, 05:01:52 PM
Reincarnate should be toned down.

6 reincarnates is too much. It's deep into burnout territory for any normal player.
Base ability points are no longer useful on gear because of this as well. You even need to be careful that your character stat roll and legendary ranks don't cap you. Previously legendary items received a stealth nerf because of this (I now see a dam/2str neck as a dam neck. I see a 2dam 2str 2con helm as 2dam flat).

Solution:

Cap reincarnates at 3. This will do four things
1. Make stats more meaningful
2. Alleviate burnout
3. Increase overall value of ranks to a character as the cap is lower
4. Make playing alternate characters less daunting
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Zozen on September 14, 2020, 10:59:23 PM
Thank you for bringing this up. I completely agree. 6 is way too much. I felt 2-3 was the sweet spot. Right now a lot of the "elite equip" that have +2 stats/multiple stats/etc are basically "meh" once you reincarnate as you are practically maxxed out on your prime stats for the class you are playing and a lot of your other stats have been filled in.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: corey on September 15, 2020, 03:53:41 AM
Yep. Items like a certain skull from a certain dragon in a certain zone that ends with harkas is just a giant piece of poop now.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Dagda on September 15, 2020, 01:17:34 PM
I mean this is easy, just stop at 3.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: corey on September 15, 2020, 02:36:55 PM
I mean this is easy, just stop at 3.

That's the idea.

I have 5-6 r6 legend chars. There is no "stopping before max".
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Dagda on September 15, 2020, 05:04:57 PM
I mean this is easy, just stop at 3.

That's the idea.

I have 5-6 r6 legend chars. There is no "stopping before max".

That sounds like a 'you' problem.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: George on September 15, 2020, 05:37:54 PM
yeah this is a ridiculous "problem". you not having the self control to not reincarnate 6 times is no reason to stop everyone else who enjoys it from doing it. i thought that was the whole point of reincarnation anyways, to give the regular joe player the means to have a max out character through mindless grinding. if you don't want to do 6... don't. if you don't want to have max strength from reincarnation bonuses, put those points somewhere else. if you don't like legend animate... don't use it. don't buy it. spend those ranks elsewhere. a lot of people use legend animate to be able to get places and do hard zones that they don't have the group or gear to do otherwise. if you don't need it, don't use it. if you can't help but use it even though you don't need it, then you need to work on yourself, not take away from others.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: corey on September 15, 2020, 06:08:22 PM
yeah this is a ridiculous "problem". you not having the self control to not reincarnate 6 times is no reason to stop everyone else who enjoys it from doing it. i thought that was the whole point of reincarnation anyways, to give the regular joe player the means to have a max out character through mindless grinding. if you don't want to do 6... don't. if you don't want to have max strength from reincarnation bonuses, put those points somewhere else. if you don't like legend animate... don't use it. don't buy it. spend those ranks elsewhere. a lot of people use legend animate to be able to get places and do hard zones that they don't have the group or gear to do otherwise. if you don't need it, don't use it. if you can't help but use it even though you don't need it, then you need to work on yourself, not take away from others.

"Don't use it" is not a good answer. It's within the confines of the game.

You don't run a race and not use one of your feet.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: George on September 15, 2020, 07:51:00 PM
"Don't use it" is not a good answer. It's within the confines of the game.

You don't run a race and not use one of your feet.

you do if you bitch about how using two feet makes the race too easy... what do you care if other people are reincarnating 6 times? it doesn't affect you at all. put your extra points elsewhere and use that skull you've got such a boner for to get the stats you want where you want them.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: corey on September 15, 2020, 08:25:04 PM
"Don't use it" is not a good answer. It's within the confines of the game.

You don't run a race and not use one of your feet.

you do if you bitch about how using two feet makes the race too easy... what do you care if other people are reincarnating 6 times? it doesn't affect you at all. put your extra points elsewhere and use that skull you've got such a boner for to get the stats you want where you want them.

I don't know why you feel the need to be such a bapt. The idea was laid out and you're allowed to voice your opinion.

Play calm, soldier boy
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: George on September 15, 2020, 08:48:08 PM
not sure why youre offended. all i did was voice an opinion that didn't agree with your opinion. are you really offended by my choice of words? you? ...really?
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Vespin on September 15, 2020, 10:41:17 PM
I think the biggest issue is the top tier end game items are not and were not created with their owners having +12 innate stat, 100 medal points and legendary benefits in mind.  You have an antiquated value system for how "good" an item is that just devalues it overall, which then leads to artificially bloated gear.  The casual player some are describing who benefit from the full 6 reincarnates to shore up their lack of elite gear are never going to see items off cyan or blazewight or kraken or whatever.  So i'm not sure why we're getting up in arms.  These problems don't conflict.  Instead of cyan loading an item that is +6 stat and 5 nice flags that are SUPER common to be placed on medals or ranks, you have to look for other ways to make them attractive.  otherwise you're literally doing cyan for a 30 rank point item, of which you're kinda only happy about the damage/spell damage type flag.  Yeah, first world problems, but these problems were never anything the casual player was going to deal with anyway.  so it's a problem for the player who plays at that level, which is just as valid in maintaining player-engagement.   I don't know that there is a solution, other than vastly toning down what you can buy with ranks/medal affinity (which harms casual players) or shifting the focus away from autos/+stat on top tier equipment.  but basically +stat on almost any item is just adding fake_value for top tier high end gear.  It really is a problem when i look at an iconic end game item and think "huh. out of all the flags on this, i guess the only benefit i actually receive is saving 250 coins now and again.  that's a shame."  And yeah, i could just not use it, but the issue is, the other comparable stuff is all similar.  "i guess i get partial value somewhere."  and these are iconic items people used to start wars over.  not just stuff you can get anywhere as a casual participant.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Dagda on September 15, 2020, 10:49:30 PM
+1 Vespin. that's the answer, update the gear not ruin the fun of the casual player - which exist in far greater number than the elite player.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: corey on September 15, 2020, 11:19:07 PM
I should have split this one into two posts. One about player burnout and one about gear stats. They're currently two symptoms of the same problem.

Agree with Vespin, as I do with most things.

Is there no feel of burnout for 6 reincarnates from others? It takes its toll on my soul.

Even if the benefits per reincarnate were doubled and the total number of reincarnates halved, therefore nullifying any loss to player power, I still think that's a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Dagda on September 16, 2020, 01:09:34 AM
At least give sadomasochists who play neutral some sort of xp earning bonus on reincarnating. It's painful.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Lloth on September 16, 2020, 03:42:39 PM
Instead of reincarnating and burning away everyone's sanity, perhaps leaving that style behind. Reincarnating gives so much, true it takes a long time and commitment. What if instead of reincarnating, you gave a rank point after earning X amount of EXP(or how much they would have gotten since evils are at a distinct disadvantage here). People would still be zoning and doing the normal ranking but passively gain a rank point every 50-100 million exp. The rank max would have to be raised for sure. It's just an option that could maybe be looked at.

Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Dagda on September 16, 2020, 08:05:34 PM
Instead of reincarnating and burning away everyone's sanity, perhaps leaving that style behind. Reincarnating gives so much, true it takes a long time and commitment. What if instead of reincarnating, you gave a rank point after earning X amount of EXP(or how much they would have gotten since evils are at a distinct disadvantage here). People would still be zoning and doing the normal ranking but passively gain a rank point every 50-100 million exp. The rank max would have to be raised for sure. It's just an option that could maybe be looked at.

I don't hate it. I still like being able to reincarnate a character I'm attached to to a better race, maybe have a race change mechanic that burns some rank points?
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Lloth on September 16, 2020, 08:51:55 PM
Maybe you are allowed to reincarnate ONCE and then after that initial reincarnation, then you start receiving that 'rank for exp' bonus. I agree, being able to reincarnate into a different race/reroll stats on wipe day characters is a good thing.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: el conquistador on September 17, 2020, 11:37:13 AM
Maybe you are allowed to reincarnate ONCE and then after that initial reincarnation, then you start receiving that 'rank for exp' bonus. I agree, being able to reincarnate into a different race/reroll stats on wipe day characters is a good thing.

i dunno.  how would that be for evils?  1 reincarnate and then you are killing vingaard FOREVER.  talk about burnout lol

im pretty happy with how reincarnate is right now.  i think 6 will be too far for me but 3 or 4 should be good enough for just about anyone
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Dagda on September 17, 2020, 01:35:54 PM
Maybe you are allowed to reincarnate ONCE and then after that initial reincarnation, then you start receiving that 'rank for exp' bonus. I agree, being able to reincarnate into a different race/reroll stats on wipe day characters is a good thing.

i dunno.  how would that be for evils?  1 reincarnate and then you are killing vingaard FOREVER.  talk about burnout lol

im pretty happy with how reincarnate is right now.  i think 6 will be too far for me but 3 or 4 should be good enough for just about anyone

Maybe explore more? There's a few more high end zones for evil aligned characters than vingaard. Some not even that far away.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: el conquistador on September 17, 2020, 03:02:10 PM

Maybe explore more? There's a few more high end zones for evil aligned characters than vingaard. Some not even that far away.


yeah but they are all exactly the same
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Lloth on September 17, 2020, 03:30:58 PM

" What if instead of reincarnating, you gave a rank point after earning X amount of EXP(or how much they would have gotten since evils are at a distinct disadvantage here)"
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: el conquistador on September 17, 2020, 05:29:46 PM

" What if instead of reincarnating, you gave a rank point after earning X amount of EXP(or how much they would have gotten since evils are at a distinct disadvantage here)"

so all aligns would get the same 'exp' for everything after 1x and that exp would count toward ranks?  i guess that could be pretty good.  id probably like it better than the current luck based rank values  :P
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: George on September 18, 2020, 03:23:23 PM
i really don't see how i was being mean in any way, there was no offense intended, and i don't see any reason for anyone to take offense at anything i said. i said it's a ridiculous "problem", because i don't think it's a problem, and i said he's got a boner for an item that he described in enough detail that almost anyone who has seen it knows exactly what item he's referring to. i thought it was funny, and i was honestly surprised that someone with as colorful a past with the players of this game as corey was even remotely upset by it.

as for him being unbiased, his entire argument is that the elite eq that he has/wants isn't as meaningful or impactful as we wants it to be... that is a very biased opinion. the people who never see eq of that calibur on a regular enough basis that it impacts their long term rank selection (the majority of active players) will never have that problem.

also, if you're concerned a word is going to get censored by a filter that was presumably written by someone who is concerned about the language used on these forums, circumventing those filters to make sure the word gets through generally isn't a very good idea.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Malthros on September 19, 2020, 05:02:05 AM
Reincarnation is fine.  Someone spends literally hundreds of hours grinding for some extra power instead of playing a dozen other games, let them.

Yes, r6 and a rank 100 medal on a legend is a ton of power.  For the amount of time that takes it better be.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Dafin on September 19, 2020, 03:35:04 PM
Yes, r6 and a rank 100 medal on a legend is a ton of power.  For the amount of time that takes it better be.
Isn't it the reason why no-limit items experiment mentioned (http://mud.arctic.org/forums/index.php/topic,2429.msg14319.html#msg14319) by Terk was canceled? Because hardcore players became annoyed that casuals got 80-90% of their power.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Dagda on September 19, 2020, 10:16:08 PM
That's a ludicrous reason to cancel that idea. There should be a push to make the game more accessible for the casual player. Hardcore players frankly are assholes who shouldn't be catered to, catering to the hardcore player usually makes the game less fun for everyone else who plays. Help the casual player get a little more power so they fell more empowered to do more in the game.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Jorquin on September 21, 2020, 07:20:25 AM
I have to say reincarnation is a bit odd to me.

Consistent equipment nerfs over the past few years to try and tackle the "power bloat" have been the bane of players existence. Nerfing the shinies sucks and is demoralizing. As a side note, the newest zones are the worst. Nerfing old content to create space for even more OP gear isn't balance, it's creator bias.

In parallel, a system was created that provides an easily accessible path to power bloat that requires nothing other than conceding a large portion of ones life.

The two thoughts are completely opposed.

Further, to echo some other posts, has made +stat gear dumpster quality. This has further devalued many old items and has led to only a subset of equipment being valuable , which is perpetually maxed.

There's some real issues which need to be addressed.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Malthros on September 22, 2020, 05:13:39 AM
Yes, r6 and a rank 100 medal on a legend is a ton of power.  For the amount of time that takes it better be.
Isn't it the reason why no-limit items experiment mentioned (http://mud.arctic.org/forums/index.php/topic,2429.msg14319.html#msg14319) by Terk was canceled? Because hardcore players became annoyed that casuals got 80-90% of their power.

Maybe? Class sets are a decent thing right now since it’s just a matter of time spent loading them, and hoping the stats aren’t detrimental like auto hide or sneak on tank gear.

And Armaboro should be nolim if it isn’t already simply because of the tedium in keeping that set in order. Though st least you can trade pieces for others but that’s still a lot of trips.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Jorquin on September 22, 2020, 06:35:10 AM
I don't know the answer, but there's limited meaningful progression right now.

There's the reincarnation grind, and then a gargantuan power spike when you finally legend. Beyond that there's a long medal grind (if you can be assed).

Effectively you grind until you get bored and give up, or you grind until you're done but realise there's not a lot to do (other than grind more).
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: George on September 23, 2020, 06:21:01 PM
I have to say reincarnation is a bit odd to me.

Consistent equipment nerfs over the past few years to try and tackle the "power bloat" have been the bane of players existence. Nerfing the shinies sucks and is demoralizing. As a side note, the newest zones are the worst. Nerfing old content to create space for even more OP gear isn't balance, it's creator bias.

In parallel, a system was created that provides an easily accessible path to power bloat that requires nothing other than conceding a large portion of ones life.

The two thoughts are completely opposed.

Further, to echo some other posts, has made +stat gear dumpster quality. This has further devalued many old items and has led to only a subset of equipment being valuable , which is perpetually maxed.

There's some real issues which need to be addressed.

I think the main reason for this seeming conflict of interest is the driving force behind these systems are/were not the same people. Adepali has long been an advocate of removing item decay, item limits, rent costs, and other little things that make the "competition" for item sets a thing of the past, and from what I understand, attunement was/is Adepali's project. Look at the qualities of it: No rent, no decay, no limit to how many can exist, you don't even lose them in a dt or deadbeat! The majority of the playerbase seems to enjoy them, they promote exploration, and now that you can raise them while in a group, they're no longer a solo project. I haven't seen any complaints about how they're not unique, or you didn't have to solve a huge quest line in order to gain access to them. They're simply a great item that has allowed many players to get the power to do more than they could do before. The main cost is time, but... That's what games are for. If you are willing to put in the time and effort, you get the reward. It's a way better system than putting in the time and effort and getting nothing because every good item out of the zone you're exploring is already maxxed, so all you did was risk your equipment, and likely lose a ton of exp in the process.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Jorquin on September 24, 2020, 04:55:11 AM
Fair points.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: el conquistador on September 24, 2020, 03:53:26 PM

I think the main reason for this seeming conflict of interest is the driving force behind these systems are/were not the same people. Adepali has long been an advocate of removing item decay, item limits, rent costs, and other little things that make the "competition" for item sets a thing of the past, and from what I understand, attunement was/is Adepali's project. Look at the qualities of it: No rent, no decay, no limit to how many can exist, you don't even lose them in a dt or deadbeat! The majority of the playerbase seems to enjoy them, they promote exploration, and now that you can raise them while in a group, they're no longer a solo project. I haven't seen any complaints about how they're not unique, or you didn't have to solve a huge quest line in order to gain access to them. They're simply a great item that has allowed many players to get the power to do more than they could do before. The main cost is time, but... That's what games are for. If you are willing to put in the time and effort, you get the reward. It's a way better system than putting in the time and effort and getting nothing because every good item out of the zone you're exploring is already maxxed, so all you did was risk your equipment, and likely lose a ton of exp in the process.

thats why adepali is the best!  ive been pretty much in full agreement with everything he has ever put forward

i believe he was also the main force behind lowering the skill grind requirements for many of the more painful skills to superb.  the guy knows how to make the game more enjoyable for the average player.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Gnua on September 25, 2020, 07:16:55 PM
Is there no feel of burnout for 6 reincarnates from others? It takes its toll on my soul.

"Grind a useless character to R6.  Legend.  Play for an OP character for a week. Quit"  seems to be the way a lot of my clannies have gone.  It also has seemed to further fractured the players base into groups that cant help eachother because of differing level/alignment. Medal grinding does not seem to interfere with grouping nearly as much as reincarnate grinding obstructs grouping.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Caine on September 26, 2020, 03:07:08 PM
Great discussions. I read some of the posts and personally I really liked Lloth's idea. I had actually suggested increasing the rank cap as an alternative to reincarnation before it was added, but it seemed not to gain much traction.

Currently, if you reincarnate all 6 times, you end up with the following benefits:
12 ranks
12 stat points
-6 saving spell
30-90 hit points
120 movement points

You also get the opportunity to change race a limited number of times throughout the process.

The entire process takes about 1.6 billion XP, perhaps less since you don't actually need to reach 1X per se, but let's skim that for now.

---

So I was thinking, if grinding XP to increase character power is the goal here, then maybe the following system could work:

Remove reincarnation, and replace it with a system where you can earn extra RP by gaining XP past the limit (beyond 1X). I'm thinking up to a maximum of 50 rank points, raising the effective rank limit to 100. (If you die, then you'd need to reach 1X to start earning that XP past the cap again.)

I'd say every 100 million XP or so you would gain an additional rank point. So you would need to gain 5 billion extra experience to hit the cap. It sounds like a lot, given that reincarnation 6 only takes 1.6 billion XP, but given that the rank cap would be increasing so much (to 100), I'd want it to be a lot, i.e. I don't want someone farming all 50 XP ranks in just 1 week. Additionally, you'll be level 30 throughout and simultaneously also gaining normal rank %, so you'd actually be gaining ranks faster than normal anyway.

Test and raise/lower the xp value per rank point as needed. Some things that would probably need to be considered:
 - How diminishing XP returns would work, or XP limits per mob (I imagine getting double XP at level 30 would move this SUPER fast for more knowledgeable players)
 - What the rank cap should be (100 is just my example thought)
 - Rank costs and rank purchase limits - may need some adjustment or restrictions.

I do concede that 100 rank points is a lofty maximum and makes options like legend + 2x damage shields + haste theoretically obtainable. So it would take some balance testing no doubt to find a good level of XP that makes the "xp cap" not obtainable too quickly, or restrictions on ranks such as certain ones being mutually exclusive with others.

Using 100 million per rank point as an example, then after about 1.2 billion XP you'd have gained 12 ranks, similar (RP wise) to the amount gained in reincarnation (~1.3 billion xp, 12 RP). XP does come faster, as you are level 30 throughout, but you lose out on the extra stuff (stat points/hp) that reincarnation would have provided. Another downside is that you can't change race through this system, so there might have to be provisions brainstormed for that somewhere.

A second side effect of this would be that depending on how the rank purchase limits are altered, this could make +stat gear more viable as well. In the current reincarnation system I can innately pump a stat by up to 12 points and then on top of that buy an additional 5 with ranks. In the new system, you wouldn't be able to pump your stats so high for free, and instead you'd have to spend those RP you gained on buying the stats, else start using +stat gear again.

Finally you'd also be able to work on XP when you felt like it without fear of losing out on grouping opportunities. If other people want to group for a high zone, or maybe also if a spell comes up for sale and you just reincarnated and tough luck in the current system, in the new system you wouldn't have that problem.

Thoughts welcomed.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: corey on September 26, 2020, 07:25:23 PM
Great discussions. I read some of the posts and personally I really liked Lloth's idea. I had actually suggested increasing the rank cap as an alternative to reincarnation before it was added, but it seemed not to gain much traction.

Currently, if you reincarnate all 6 times, you end up with the following benefits:
12 ranks
12 stat points
-6 saving spell
30-90 hit points
120 movement points

You also get the opportunity to change race a limited number of times throughout the process.

The entire process takes about 1.6 billion XP, perhaps less since you don't actually need to reach 1X per se, but let's skim that for now.

---

So I was thinking, if grinding XP to increase character power is the goal here, then maybe the following system could work:

Remove reincarnation, and replace it with a system where you can earn extra RP by gaining XP past the limit (beyond 1X). I'm thinking up to a maximum of 50 rank points, raising the effective rank limit to 100. (If you die, then you'd need to reach 1X to start earning that XP past the cap again.)

I'd say every 100 million XP or so you would gain an additional rank point. So you would need to gain 5 billion extra experience to hit the cap. It sounds like a lot, given that reincarnation 6 only takes 1.6 billion XP, but given that the rank cap would be increasing so much (to 100), I'd want it to be a lot, i.e. I don't want someone farming all 50 XP ranks in just 1 week. Additionally, you'll be level 30 throughout and simultaneously also gaining normal rank %, so you'd actually be gaining ranks faster than normal anyway.

Test and raise/lower the xp value per rank point as needed. Some things that would probably need to be considered:
 - How diminishing XP returns would work, or XP limits per mob (I imagine getting double XP at level 30 would move this SUPER fast for more knowledgeable players)
 - What the rank cap should be (100 is just my example thought)
 - Rank costs and rank purchase limits - may need some adjustment or restrictions.

I do concede that 100 rank points is a lofty maximum and makes options like legend + 2x damage shields + haste theoretically obtainable. So it would take some balance testing no doubt to find a good level of XP that makes the "xp cap" not obtainable too quickly, or restrictions on ranks such as certain ones being mutually exclusive with others.

Using 100 million per rank point as an example, then after about 1.2 billion XP you'd have gained 12 ranks, similar (RP wise) to the amount gained in reincarnation (~1.3 billion xp, 12 RP). XP does come faster, as you are level 30 throughout, but you lose out on the extra stuff (stat points/hp) that reincarnation would have provided. Another downside is that you can't change race through this system, so there might have to be provisions brainstormed for that somewhere.

A second side effect of this would be that depending on how the rank purchase limits are altered, this could make +stat gear more viable as well. In the current reincarnation system I can innately pump a stat by up to 12 points and then on top of that buy an additional 5 with ranks. In the new system, you wouldn't be able to pump your stats so high for free, and instead you'd have to spend those RP you gained on buying the stats, else start using +stat gear again.

Finally you'd also be able to work on XP when you felt like it without fear of losing out on grouping opportunities. If other people want to group for a high zone, or maybe also if a spell comes up for sale and you just reincarnated and tough luck in the current system, in the new system you wouldn't have that problem.

Thoughts welcomed.

I find this interesting to a degree, but may also have detrimental or beneficial side-effects, depending on which side of the coin you fall.

For example:
- Reincarnations reset exp caps on all mobs. Exp cap would need to be removed or some sort of reset would need to be introduced.
- I will be exping exclusively and consistently in 3-4 zones. I will not hesitate to take these from you and chase you away. Some people won't like that.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: mikey on September 27, 2020, 12:14:43 AM
I love the reincarnation system! Slaughtering pigmies or kalaman recruits more than once a wipe is great!

I don't have much to add the the conversation, but I hope the staff knows that not everyone wants to alter/trash it.  Being able to play a second character and reincarnation have definitely been the biggest factors in my increased playtime.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Lloth on September 27, 2020, 01:56:28 AM
The reason I suggested this in the first place was to get away from exactly what you want, Corey. It's absolutely mind numbingly boring to spam the same 3-4 zones over and over again. The point I wanted to make was regardless if the ranks suck in a zone, you are still getting exp which in turn gives ranks, eventually. Like I said when I first suggested it, once you meet the requirements for that extra ranks via exp, the alignment penalty should be removed OR make everyone get the same exp as what a neutral would. But if you want to spam theiwer, drac tower and PI/mortigoth you certainly can. But it would just get more people to run zones "just because" instead of checking the mob ranks or doing only mid-high "exp zones"
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: gulca on September 27, 2020, 04:58:54 AM
If you want zones to be done equally, just make an incentive to do them.

Put in like a weekly circuit where you are required to visit a string of zones to get bonus rank points.

Each week have like 6 different sets of circuit, 2 low lvls, 2 mids and 2 high lvls. Each set consist of 3-5 zones.

With different combinations each week, im sure it will motivate all players to learn all the zones that are selected.

People will always want to do what is most efficient. If 3 zones are giving me the best xp/time, why would i bother with other zones?
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Lloth on September 27, 2020, 05:18:00 AM
Because those zones don't have the potential to load something useful. That's the point, I think a LOT of gear should be turned to no locate and people just do zones and maybe get rewarded with an item and if not, they got some exp.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: gulca on September 27, 2020, 09:05:25 AM
Because those zones don't have the potential to load something useful. That's the point, I think a LOT of gear should be turned to no locate and people just do zones and maybe get rewarded with an item and if not, they got some exp.
Yes i understand your point. Exp exchanging for rank point isn’t going to work as corey pointed out. And i agree with him since most players want to minimize or maximize their play time.

It is nice to do any zones for xp that can eventually be exchange for ranks. But water tends to flow with gravity and you will still not solve the problem. They will xp the most efficient way and spam the few most xp efficient zones in exchange for your proposed rank exchange.

If you want players to have more choices in terms of zone variations, you need to tackle that head on. No one is going to do zones with low ranks. No one is going to do zones that dont load eq. No one is going to do zones that are relatively low on xps.

Since no one wants to revamp xp on mobs, or change eq load, or rank points, you won’t shake the current play styles.

My suggestion is one way of forcing players to go to different zones. Imagine them as weekly quest. Go do these 3 zones and you earn some respectable ranks. You have 1 week to do it. Next week, another 3 different sets of zones. If you miss out, its ok. If you cant complete it, its ok. Learn the zone now and wait for the next time it pop up as the weekly quest. Im sure given the 100% return of time spent for ranks, players of any level will find themselves completing the said quests.

Would you want to waste 1hr checking zones for almost no returns or go run the weekly quest that guarantees you some amount of ranks? Of course these weekly quest are good for one time reward for that week. At least you know what you are getting at the end and not have to roll some dice hoping ranks are fresh, eq might pop and or xps are not maxed.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Caine on September 27, 2020, 12:19:03 PM
Exp exchanging for rank point isn’t going to work

With a top-heavy XP system where you remain at level 30, I agree we would probably just see high level zones spammed for efficiency rather than the spread that naturally comes with having to reset to a low level. But under the surface, isn't this exactly what reincarnation is too though? Just grinding XP for more power? Especially at higher reincarnations where you spend so much time in the 27-30 range. I'd imagine people are in high zones a lot of the time there too.

As far as the less visited zones. Medals were a good attempt at this, but unfortunately because you get such little affinity from doing them in comparison to higher level targets they still don't get done. Maybe if making players explore middling zones is the idea, then a quest style system for rank points might work? Maybe like a zone mastery system? Each zone could have a quest or two associated with it where completing it gives you a flat amount of rank percentage. They'd all be one time only completions (per character) so for each character you wanted to max out the rank on, you would have to visit every zone and do the associated quests there.

For example. You could put an interactable object in each zone (with descriptions signifying they are part of this system and not for use elsewhere) and doing some kw with it gives you a flat amount of percentage. This would be tracked separately from the normal rank% of course. It could be obvious or not, maybe more difficult ones requiring a keyword/quest to uncover. If we didn't want an entire group getting credit for a single run (or gaining ranks too quickly this way) then you could make the kw not work after the first use, or have a cooldown between turn-ins; a short-ish cooldown would probably be best because low zones are easily sped through. There could be a vendor or a list mob somewhere that tells you what you've already done. "Inspect one of King Phoenix's spears"... "Find Tony's long lost beard"... etc. It'd be fun for sure, but probably a nightmare to implement.

Just another crazy idea.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Lloth on September 27, 2020, 02:14:23 PM
So I go do my 3 quest zones in 2 hours, now I'm essentially done for the week. Like Caine said, reincarnation is already just spamming exp zones. I don't think it's a problem at all. You can literally just do zones and get exp and maybe some loads. If people want the path of least resistance and spam kagonesti hinterlands til their eyes bleed, hey good for them. The rest of the mud can do other zones.  I don't give a shit about getting the highest ranks, but it would be nice to "passively" gain ranks by just playing the game.


Or we scrap all this talk, keep reincarnation in and lower the overall benefits. 1 stat per, no svs, minor hp gains. The benefit of being higher rank but still gaining rank exp at the 'lower' rank you had is good enough.

I just wanted a reason to do zones again. I can do 10 zones right now and still not rank on my thief who is only tank 30.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Malthros on September 28, 2020, 06:58:39 PM
So I go do my 3 quest zones in 2 hours, now I'm essentially done for the week. Like Caine said, reincarnation is already just spamming exp zones. I don't think it's a problem at all. You can literally just do zones and get exp and maybe some loads. If people want the path of least resistance and spam kagonesti hinterlands til their eyes bleed, hey good for them. The rest of the mud can do other zones.  I don't give a shit about getting the highest ranks, but it would be nice to "passively" gain ranks by just playing the game.


Or we scrap all this talk, keep reincarnation in and lower the overall benefits. 1 stat per, no svs, minor hp gains. The benefit of being higher rank but still gaining rank exp at the 'lower' rank you had is good enough.

I just wanted a reason to do zones again. I can do 10 zones right now and still not rank on my thief who is only tank 30.


And if your thief dies a single time they can lose anywhere from almost nothing to more rank xp than you got from most/all of those 10 zones. :/
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: gulca on September 29, 2020, 05:59:10 AM
So I go do my 3 quest zones in 2 hours, now I'm essentially done for the week. Like Caine said, reincarnation is already just spamming exp zones. I don't think it's a problem at all. You can literally just do zones and get exp and maybe some loads. If people want the path of least resistance and spam kagonesti hinterlands til their eyes bleed, hey good for them. The rest of the mud can do other zones.  I don't give a shit about getting the highest ranks, but it would be nice to "passively" gain ranks by just playing the game.

I just wanted a reason to do zones again. I can do 10 zones right now and still not rank on my thief who is only tank 30.

I dont see a conflict with the two co existing. Mine gives everyone a reason to learn and do zones of the week and get bonus rank for as little as 2 hrs. Yours is more of a base foundation that solves the problem where people want to explore different zones and still get rank benefits.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Lloth on September 29, 2020, 07:31:16 PM
I didn't mean to sound rude. I was pressed for time and typing on a phone. I agree that both can co-exist, anything to give players something to do that doesn't involve just spamming the same 2-3 zones for EXP is the way to go.
Title: Re: Reincarnate and ability points
Post by: Alecto on November 15, 2020, 05:27:24 PM
    The problem with reincarnation that it is limited to 6. This everyone, to max the it character, does 6. What if reincarnation had NO limits, but the xp doubled each time instead of the current 10 percent? Most would stop at 2 - enough to get them to rank 25. A few, enterprising ones might go to 5. One or two (Corey, maybe me) might try for 7 or 8, but at that point xp maxing becomes a VERY real issue.
    People would just stop eventually because the reward to effort would no longer be worth it. Everyone could decide where that line was for themselves. Of you want to grind out 100+ days and hit R10...then may Paladine bless you!