Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => Game Ideas => Topic started by: Jorquin on June 17, 2020, 05:28:23 PM

Title: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorquin on June 17, 2020, 05:28:23 PM
Sky scouts are in a pretty weird spot at the moment. Don't get me wrong, they still own face in larger groups.  However, in the 2 character system they're awkward.

You need someone to tank in order to shoot, but if your secondary character is a tank you have no healing. You could try and make a shaman-tank, or a white robe with boon to tank, or various other self-healing tankish builds... all of which would be fairly sub optimal for different reasons. It's very difficult to make it work. It's not impossible, but there's no real incentive to do it other than to feel special because your're totally off-meta.

My suggestion is some sort of instinct that has a targeted curing (cure crit-ish) effect with a 2-3 tick cooldown or something. That way you can actually have a tank and some curing, which makes the class somewhat viable for smaller players while being far from game breaking. I'd suggest reworking vulture, it's pretty useless and compared to the other 5.1's (grizzly and crab) it's hot garbage.

Alternately you could make their melee capability / instincts / defensive capability just not entirely suck balls...

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Zozen on June 18, 2020, 03:28:47 AM
Paladin, dk, barb all have ways of tank healing... Combine it with a sky, sounds good to me? Not sure this is the right route to take with scouts in general...

Sky are a one trick pony. But that trick is buff as hell which makes them fine.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: corey on June 18, 2020, 07:49:17 PM
Paladin, dk, barb all have ways of tank healing... Combine it with a sky, sounds good to me? Not sure this is the right route to take with scouts in general...

Sky are a one trick pony. But that trick is buff as hell which makes them fine.

I played two legend barbs as my main characters. Legend healdance isn't working, and if it were, it's still not strong enough to really *do* things on your own.

Sorry to bring our beloved spell into this, but animate needs to be nerfed into the ground or other classes need to be moved upwards. This post is a perfect example of why.

A barb and sky scout can do nothing. A barb and cleric/shaman? pretty much everything in the game except for a few of the very top fights. I think that's his point.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorquin on June 19, 2020, 01:57:01 PM
Agree with Corey.

Saying that some self-healing tank with a sky is viable is a bit dishonest. You will be able to do some weak areas, but any tank/healer combo is going to leave you in the dust.

To be honest, any combination of shaman / druid / cleric + barb / war/ spelled_mage / thief / pala / dk / non_sky_scout is going to out perform you. Note - I just listed every single other class in the game.

But yeah, if you want to do ranks and cap-out at last gaard, then sky + tank is "viable". That is, unless, you have a bunch of high tier equipment from large group zoning.... but then you're outside the scope of my point that sky scouts are fairly inaccessible to small scale players.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on June 19, 2020, 07:43:05 PM
that sky scouts are fairly inaccessible to small scale players.

yes totally agree. 

to get vulture/roc you need either a clan or deep game knowledge.  sky scouts and mages are the two things that neither cure nor duo well with cures - and so they kind of suck for the same reasons mages suck - except new players rarely fall into the trap of playing a sky scout.  the two options i see to address this is to give them cures or to allow them to tank.  sky scouts also suffer at the high end as well.  on any fight harder than frostbyte, i find the skies to be useless because the mob has some sort of "make sky scouts useless" ability.  it could be a special that engages despite evade often enough that the sky is just spamming fade and wingsweep and never actually doing anything.  it could be a no-shoot flag.  it could be stone skin.  it could be monsters that keep appearing mid fight and getting engaged by the volley.  if the fight is hard, there is always something that shuts the sky down hard.  imagine superman without invulnerability (still has heatvision) in a world where kryptonite was as common as silver. so they are in this bad spot where they need a clan to support them but they dont contribute anything meaningful in return.  a bit like mages.

that being said, i love my sky-paladin combo even though it really isnt viable. the damage is so sexy and i dont need to compete with the other melee classes for damage items. i'm gonna spend some time seeing how far i can push this duo using the paladin dragon for cures.  i sort of like how skies arent really viable though.  there are about 7 decent bows in the game and 6 active sky scouts.  if skies didnt stink so much there would be more and then there wouldnt be enough bows.

Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on June 20, 2020, 04:55:35 PM
The only thing im seeing in this post is "Why can't my sky + (insert random tank here) do the same shit as my healing class + tank class.

You really think a sky + barb combo should be able to do the same things as a dedicated healing class + same barb can do do? That's silly. You're silly. You're talking crazy man. Your sky + legend barb or legend dk or legend paladin can do a ton of shit. Can you 2man through shoal or some such? Probably not. But then again, why should you be able to? Neither of those classes has dedicated massive consistent healing.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: corey on June 20, 2020, 09:39:24 PM
That's exactly what he's saying. It's literally a post about the two-character system...
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Rhys on June 21, 2020, 01:50:31 AM
Easy fix. Make 3 char playable. 1 tank, 1 cure, 1 damage.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorquin on June 21, 2020, 09:21:09 AM
My suggestion has been completely taken out of context.

I suggested an instinct with a 2-3 tick cool down that cures for 200ish to make tank + sky slightly more viable. They will still be inferior to any tank healer combination, and that's appropriate.

I'm not sure why elite zones come into the conversation at all. One 200hp cure every few minutes isn't going to open many doors in that regard....
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on June 21, 2020, 03:32:39 PM
My suggestion has been completely taken out of context.

I suggested an instinct with a 2-3 tick cool down that cures for 200ish to make tank + sky slightly more viable. They will still be inferior to any tank healer combination, and that's appropriate.

I'm not sure why elite zones come into the conversation at all. One 200hp cure every few minutes isn't going to open many doors in that regard....

maybe vulture could let groupmates consume corpses as well
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on June 22, 2020, 12:32:38 AM
Yeah but its the same shit.. if you want to do those zones, use a class combo that works. Don't try to make your off meta combo into something its not.

I'd like to petition that warriors get 2 6th circle spell slots for heals and 1 8th for steel. So i can duo warrior 95% of the game
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on June 22, 2020, 12:42:52 AM
Also, elite zone were brought into it because that's the limitation. You can 2man things like ft or dko etc as a sky plus barb or paladin or dk. I guess it seems like you want more than that out of classes that don't have healing. So you want to put healing on them to make up some of that.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on June 23, 2020, 02:29:56 PM
Yeah but its the same shit.. if you want to do those zones, use a class combo that works. Don't try to make your off meta combo into something its not.

I'd like to petition that warriors get 2 6th circle spell slots for heals and 1 8th for steel. So i can duo warrior 95% of the game

I think you already can duo warrior 95% of the game.  mage and sky scout are the two things that cant.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on June 23, 2020, 05:33:42 PM
Nah. Not even close for duo warrior. 2x mages would have a way better shot at it. Even duo skys
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on June 24, 2020, 08:18:15 PM
After thinking about it.. the goal shouldn't be to bring skys up; it should be to bring all other OP classes down. Nerf everything by a good 20%
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on June 24, 2020, 08:28:04 PM
Nah. Not even close for duo warrior. 2x mages would have a way better shot at it. Even duo skys

warrior + cleric can probably do a lot more than sky + anything.  skies and mages are two things that cannot form half of an effective duo.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on June 25, 2020, 02:39:49 AM
Thats my whole point... why does everything have to be made to compete with all the other things? Sky is single handedly the best dps in the game. Nothing else even comes close. So why should it also play the part of a miniature healer? 
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: corey on June 25, 2020, 04:54:27 AM
Thats my whole point... why does everything have to be made to compete with all the other things? Sky is single handedly the best dps in the game. Nothing else even comes close. So why should it also play the part of a miniature healer?

Clerics are better
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on June 25, 2020, 01:35:16 PM
Sky is single handedly the best dps in the game.

On any fight harder than frostbyte, skies are completely useless because the mob has some sort of engaging special that ignores evade or is noshoot or is stoneskin.  their usefulness in duo and endgame is highly limited.  but yes, they do shine in their niche.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on June 25, 2020, 01:40:37 PM
Clerics are better with animate to single target i suppose, but not overall. A sky in awesome eq hitting single target 6x per round while hitting 4 or 5 other things at the same time and bursting for another 5 hits or so plus weapon specs, while being nobash and able to improve group dps for a short time... hands down the best.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on June 25, 2020, 01:42:07 PM
idk. I've had several legend skies and yeah some shit would engage me but unless the mob was noshoot like lord in sanction then it wasn't a huge deal
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: reed23 on June 30, 2020, 07:14:15 PM
Not all classes are created equally.  Sure, give Sky's a 200 hp cure every 3 ticks.  Don't care about that.  They 6x oblit whenever they want at legend.  Some classes are great for the 2 man setup, others more for solo, others for 8 mans.  Stop talking about nerfing classes.  That is not what we need in this game. 
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Patpat on June 30, 2020, 07:46:36 PM
Stop talking about nerfing classes.  That is not what we need in this game.

^
Building strong chars that can duo dragons and explore highish level stuff is fun and keeps me logging in every day. I don’t really care that other classes are more OP or OP in dif ways as long as they aren’t ruining my zones or pking me I don’t care. Actually my only complaint about the game is that too many people are still playing this far into the wipe and I can’t load the eq I want to yet which is probably a pretty good complaint I guess.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on July 13, 2020, 05:25:02 PM
I think the problem with skies is that they are inferior to druids in every conceivable way. letting them cure a tank would definitely help with the duoing. skies would still be inferior to druid in every way even with the buff though.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Alecto on July 21, 2020, 05:51:50 AM
You need to build a 2 man combo that can attain your goals for the game. If you are playing a sky scout, you are probably planning on doing group zoning, not 2-manning. If you want to 2 man then tank/healer is your best option.

That said, I love playing thief/paladin, but that's cuz i'm lazy and guard lets me stab and auto rescue, then use fade as damage amelioration. Paired with dragon cures I can do a lot of game content, but that combo is really built to speed through mid-high zones.

Think about what you enjoy doing, then design the perfect pair to do those things: that's what makes Arctic fun!
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Dagda on July 21, 2020, 11:58:12 AM
Barb/sky seems to work well for two manning for me.  But it required 16 ranks on barb and 100k coins :p
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on July 24, 2020, 08:08:22 PM
If you are playing a sky scout, you are probably planning on doing group zoning, not 2-manning.

Even in a group, a druid is always preferable to a sky scout.  The sky scout currently has no niche.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Dagda on July 24, 2020, 10:01:12 PM
I don't understand this comparison. They aren't the same at all. Sure, you aren't going to bring a sky to a big mob that areas, but if you are doing a fight with lots of hard hitting mobs, I've not seen anything take them down quicker than a sky.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on July 26, 2020, 06:01:48 PM
I agree. Not everything should be able to do the same things. Why not just have 1 class only that does everything. Skys do not need to cure. Play a class that cures. Plain and simple. Or play your sky and a barb or paladin and stick to mid to high zone content.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on July 27, 2020, 06:40:20 PM
I don't understand this comparison. They aren't the same at all. Sure, you aren't going to bring a sky to a big mob that areas, but if you are doing a fight with lots of hard hitting mobs, I've not seen anything take them down quicker than a sky.

druid does more damage than a sky
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on July 27, 2020, 06:45:04 PM
I agree. Not everything should be able to do the same things. Why not just have 1 class only that does everything. Skys do not need to cure. Play a class that cures. Plain and simple. Or play your sky and a barb or paladin and stick to mid to high zone content.

But relative to a sky scout, a druid DOES do everything and more.  No class should be superior to another in every conceivable way.  Currently druids are superior to sky in every scenario.  (I am not asking for a druid nerf)
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Dagda on July 27, 2020, 11:52:45 PM
I have a legend druid and a non-legend sky. I disagree.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on July 28, 2020, 04:56:13 PM
No it does not. Wheres your math sir
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorquin on July 30, 2020, 03:15:28 AM
Quote
warrior + cleric can probably do a lot more than sky + anything.  skies and mages are two things that cannot form half of an effective duo.
Tell that to my legend white robe and sky scout combo!

+30% healing received, +20% healing done, -10% physical damage with globe and boon does work. Get a vitriolic shield / lightning shield rank on your medal for the harder fights and you're cooking with gas.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on July 30, 2020, 01:45:05 PM
No it does not. Wheres your math sir

Tornado seems to do more damage than volley
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on July 30, 2020, 01:48:47 PM
Quote
warrior + cleric can probably do a lot more than sky + anything.  skies and mages are two things that cannot form half of an effective duo.
Tell that to my legend white robe and sky scout combo!

+30% healing received, +20% healing done, -10% physical damage with globe and boon does work. Get a vitriolic shield / lightning shield rank on your medal for the harder fights and you're cooking with gas.

If sky + white already works well, why do sky scouts need curing power?
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Dagda on July 30, 2020, 02:55:16 PM
They don't. That's more or less what our argument is.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Dagda on July 30, 2020, 02:56:03 PM
No it does not. Wheres your math sir

Tornado seems to do more damage than volley

Are you running around with 12 dex skies? 5x annih 3x per round is a shitton more damage.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorquin on July 31, 2020, 05:40:43 AM
It doesn't work well. I can scrape through some lower zones like gaard, but if I swap the sky for my shaman I can do glymmer and such.

It's fun to try and make it "work"... but it doesn't really work.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Gnua on July 31, 2020, 02:56:26 PM
Tornado seems to do more damage than volley

Are you running around with 12 dex skies? 5x annih 3x per round is a shitton more damage.

and how do you know how much damage the stacked tornadoes are doing?
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Dagda on August 01, 2020, 02:29:58 AM
Tornado seems to do more damage than volley

Are you running around with 12 dex skies? 5x annih 3x per round is a shitton more damage.

and how do you know how much damage the stacked tornadoes are doing?

Comparative length of time similar fights last. It's not fricking rocket science.
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Alecto on November 15, 2020, 07:06:35 PM
I have an easy solution for this:
Remove sky scouts, bring back rangers to replace them. Leave Ocean and Mountain as is.
Done!
Title: Re: Sky scouts
Post by: Jorake on November 15, 2020, 07:07:43 PM
I have an easy solution for this:
Remove sky scouts, bring back rangers to replace them. Leave Ocean and Mountain as is.
Done!


I support this!