Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: zodiak21 on August 24, 2019, 10:10:55 PM

Title: Dissemination of Information
Post by: zodiak21 on August 24, 2019, 10:10:55 PM
Let's be real, I appreciate all the new developers creating content. I love this game I've been playing it since i was 8 yrs old.  The players have died. Mainly from a Game Info standpoint.  I know the main argument is "blah blah blah we put in the time to discover the answers". Lets stop lying to each other.  The "Majority" of the game is no longer secret. Arctic has been put into a choke hold of  information.  Anyone can level and build a character to handle a majority of the zones in this game. Now with the approval of being able to bot it has expanded the game even more.  But we all know that the wall is the Keyword System. I get that is the charm of this game that i know and love.  Nothing made me happier then finally cracking the code, but we don't have 100+ players constantly playing anymore.  When we had that population the "hidden"(i use that term loosely because we all know/talk about that social drama of game knowledge) was necessary.  But i think we all agree the draw of this game was mainly PVP but also getting that piece of gear that was one step up over what you currently have.  With the diluted population if you aren't in the "know" or know someone who may be willingly to tell you or at least "lead"you...good luck.  I am not saying that the entire game has to become public knowledge, but I think we can all agree that there is about 80% of this "zone knowledge" that could be put to the public that wouldn't hurt the current game climate.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: el conquistador on August 25, 2019, 02:00:47 AM
big agree with zodiak here. 

keywords are what pretty much ended the wipe for me.  exploring a zone i have never done and come up to a wall.  i know the wall opens i have a log of it but there is no keyword in the room at all that i can see.  so i spend hours staring at it but still cant figure how to open it.  and if i didnt have that log i wouldnt ever poke around in that room in the first place.  there are 0 things that look suspicious.  its crazy!  huge disincentive to explore.

then it comes out that if too many people know things, keywords or zones will be changed.  why!  we have been playing this game for 20 years and are still not allowed to know the secrets.  its insanity.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Willoe on August 25, 2019, 11:14:10 AM
This post is hilarious. Quitting because you can't solve a zone? Sounds like a personal problem. I've spent literally hundreds of hours in a single zone to figure out how to open that wall, and you want that for free? Millenniums these days. *Grumble*

If a zone warrants keyword changes it' because the rewards are meant to be for those who actually invested time in to the game. If creators/game imps see that too many people are being fed that info, they change it. It isn't hard for someone who actually spent the time solving the zone to resolve a kw.

That being said, there are plenty of zones out there that don't have their kw's changed. If you don't like having to work for your knowledge, stay there.

My grumpy ass 2 cents.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: zodiak21 on August 25, 2019, 03:27:16 PM
I think you misunderstood my point.  I am not talking about the higher level tiered zones.  Ive brought many people into arctic over the years that just felt overwhelmed by the lack of information really.  I enjoyed that myself but for a dying playerbase, pulling back the curtain on things that are like sub lvl 25 not only makes the game more accessible to new players, but also helps teach them the entire Key Word  mechanic so when they are ready to learn the unknown they have a better idea of what it would take to actually crack the code.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Willoe on August 25, 2019, 07:55:49 PM
Gotcha. Maybe that was more a reply to El Conquistador. All for lower zones being open knowledge (mostly not including some quests).
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Alecto on August 25, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
There are several new mid zones that are designed to be "trainers" to help players get better at exploring zones. I would suggest you start with those - often learning to search for details in rdescs, redescs, etc. takes time. There are a few quests out there that take a pretty intensive amount of exploring to learn, but most zones in the game (and almost everything in the low/mid categories) can be solved using basic action/object keywords.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: el conquistador on August 26, 2019, 02:20:30 AM
try to make me feel dumb all you want.  i know that its insane to not be able to open a wall after hours in a mid-high zone that barely gets done.

i am not the freak for thinking it should be doable by a fairly intelligent person.  you guys are the freaks for believing it should be that hard.  trying to keep people from being able to solve half-ass puzzles in a text game 20 years old.  lol

they mostly arent even good puzzles at all.  its like spam random keywords in different combinations at everything that vaguely looks like it might be hiding something for hours and hours.  thats the gameplay you are protecting. 
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Hoyt on August 26, 2019, 08:05:25 AM
Although i am not sure which zone you are  referring to. You can't see the Forest if you are only looking at 1 tree. STOP LOOKING AT THE TREE! I see where so many people get so slash and hack happy they kill all the mobs in a zone, and then wonder why they can't do quests in the zone. maybe some of those mobs are there to help you with the zone?  if you take the time and examine everything in each room talk to a mob sometimes they give clues to kws in other parts of the zone. and yeah it can be mind numbing at times, however when I myself have spend up to an hour in a room looking at all the clues and doing kw in that room, it takes some work to unlock the goodies a zone holds. I will agree there are some kws in the game that are a little silly, but even those ones usally have a hint somewhere. 
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Kadaj on August 27, 2019, 01:45:43 PM
Ok, I just have to ask. What wall are we talking about, because I am now genuinely intrigued!
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Alecto on August 27, 2019, 05:45:10 PM
What is up with that trough in the Solace Sewers? I have been trying to figure that one out since 1998!
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Gnua on August 27, 2019, 09:49:40 PM
What is up with that trough in the Solace Sewers? I have been trying to figure that one out since 1998!

I've been trying to help the crying kid in the tarsis park since 1997.  I have strong (perhaps fake) memories of returning/presenting/displaying the green wooden sword to him and getting a whopping 650 xp, but i have never been able to reproduce this moment of triumph.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: reed23 on August 28, 2019, 12:24:06 PM
At this point in the game's life, if someone is out grinding to try to solve zones, i think it would be smart for the immortals or other players to help them if they are putting in the effort.  The most end game secrets don't need to be handed out (even though i'd be fine if even those were hinted towards), but 95% of the game should be able to be solved/helped/etc. if effort is put in.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: el conquistador on August 28, 2019, 12:37:34 PM
Ok, I just have to ask. What wall are we talking about, because I am now genuinely intrigued!

dont want to say.  i feel like i will be mocked further
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: mikey on August 28, 2019, 10:51:50 PM
What is up with that trough in the Solace Sewers? I have been trying to figure that one out since 1998!

A big problem for me is you never know if you are on the right track.
You see a trough - does it do anything? No way to know, but absolutely no way to rule it out.

You've tried all the regular keywords "X trough", no good.  Now you have to try all the crazy stuff you can come up with, because maybe it's "nap trough" - who knows!  Perhaps an adverb got involved.  Yikes! Looks like your fingers will be cramping up before you can do every combination of "X trough Y".  Ugh, what if the syntax is abnormal? Nothing else worked, so you have to try all the (X Y trough and trough X Y) combinations you can think of.  Now you recall that some keywords have to be entered multiple times to be successful, plus maybe you have a goblin corpse in your inventory to use for a blanket?  Maybe two "blankets"?  No way to know.

I guess I'd propose a spell/skill (Ex. Inspect)  that allows a player to see what objects have a purpose.  Once you "inspect" that trough and it glows green, by all means sit there until you get the magical "quickly nap trough" x3 (with 2 goblin corpses in your inventory) combination.

I know it's way too much work, but what would be really nice if attempts gave some kind of hint - "break trough" would give "don't you feel too sleepy for that?"  anything that would give the feeling of progress.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Malthros on August 30, 2019, 08:49:39 PM
Unless someone's being fed info by an imm what business is it of the imms?  I know this mindset has been around Arctic forever but "too many people know Zone X, or were taught it by other players, time to change it NO FUN ALLOWED" is dumb.  So what if a bunch of people are taught zone X or Y?  If they manage to rush wipe that nobash or dragon orb you wanted then deal with it the way it's always been dealt with:  PK them and take it.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Hoodoo on August 31, 2019, 07:30:20 AM
The problem inherent in this discussion in the past is this: while the problems of elite knowledge primarily coming from imms sharing obfuscatory keywords with their mortal friends are time-honored, and by far the most prevalent method for info like Uth vault or anything connected to Don Righ to be "discovered".... in order to get changes, we have to ask the people who most benefit to deliberatelu make their personal experience worse in order to make the general game experience better.

After all... why would someone who already received the benefits kf cheated knowledge want others to receive the same, or for the barrier to that knowledge to be lowered? That barrier is what makes him special.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Kam on August 31, 2019, 12:52:59 PM
Zones that have ridiculous keywords like this really don't make it into the game anymore.

I'm happy to have anyone send me a list of specific keywords that might need to be looked at and simplified or have better clues or whatever.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: blackmagus on August 31, 2019, 03:24:10 PM
The problem inherent in this discussion in the past is this: while the problems of elite knowledge primarily coming from imms sharing obfuscatory keywords with their mortal friends are time-honored, and by far the most prevalent method for info like Uth vault or anything connected to Don Righ to be "discovered".... in order to get changes, we have to ask the people who most benefit to deliberatelu make their personal experience worse in order to make the general game experience better.

After all... why would someone who already received the benefits kf cheated knowledge want others to receive the same, or for the barrier to that knowledge to be lowered? That barrier is what makes him special.

I know you've never sat at the big boys table before, but it's not full of lobster and chocolate pudding like you think it is.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Hoodoo on August 31, 2019, 06:21:59 PM
*chuckle* I have either clanned with, or zoned extensively with, every clan in which I was ever interested.  Wouldn't have minded seeing more, but I have no complaints... and what I learned, I learned honest.

Fact is, I spent extensive solo time over three wipes learning kws in Terk zones which, when I shared how I learned them/figured them with people from major pk clans, earned me a laugh... because info like that was simply exoected to be handed to other people in major clans.  Same with Archimedes zones, and most of the other zones/solos I do. I played since Hobbes, know more than most, and had very little handed to me.

Of course, I would have wished to have had an easier time.. but such was not to be my fate.  Can't say I'm sorry about that, in the end.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Stylus on September 01, 2019, 02:18:27 PM
I guess I'd propose a spell/skill (Ex. Inspect)  that allows a player to see what objects have a purpose.  Once you "inspect" that trough and it glows green, by all means sit there until you get the magical "quickly nap trough" x3 (with 2 goblin corpses in your inventory) combination.

I know it's way too much work, but what would be really nice if attempts gave some kind of hint - "break trough" would give "don't you feel too sleepy for that?"  anything that would give the feeling of progress.

Neat idea!
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Alecto on September 01, 2019, 07:30:34 PM
***UPDATE*** I just received confirmation that the Solace Sewer trough is just a water container in the zone. Dreams do come true!
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: eli on September 06, 2019, 10:49:00 AM
Majority of zone keywords should be like a copyright, expires at some point and enters the public domain. Especially true for old zones.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Dagda on September 15, 2019, 03:47:07 AM
Zones that have ridiculous keywords like this really don't make it into the game anymore.

I'm happy to have anyone send me a list of specific keywords that might need to be looked at and simplified or have better clues or whatever.


Does anyone who plays even have a clue how to solve emerald short sword anymore? It seems that quest is basically a cheat code.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Kadaj on September 16, 2019, 05:46:16 AM


"Does anyone who plays even have a clue how to solve emerald short sword anymore? It seems that quest is basically a cheat code."


You know, it's stuff like this that I would love to get the background details on. Like random stuff with no clues for anything but somehow got solved. It's a whole lot of nothingness that seems so crazy that it got solved.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Hoodoo on September 16, 2019, 06:08:20 AM
Last I heard, key to getting past that bookcase is a literal paragraph keyphrase from Weis and Hickman's novels, not otherwise mentioned in game.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: SArT on September 16, 2019, 04:25:06 PM
 
Does anyone who plays even have a clue how to solve emerald short sword anymore? It seems that quest is basically a cheat code.

Unsure if it changed since I played seriously last.. but that is definitely solvable. Essentially quests like this come from doing other quests and having some weird remainder in your inventory.. and not just throwing it in the dump.

Newer players need to realize that there are a lot of quests that are not just isolated to a single zone.

Look at who created the zones.. explore all the zones by the same creator at the same time and get use to the way they write and think.

Look at all the zones by members of a faction that were created during a certain time period and look for similarities.

I wasn't looking for the blue ornate set when I was the first to discover it years ago.. it just happened to be there at the end of many days of exploring a particular zone. I was channeling my inner Hoss.. and was exploring zones built by his clannies and friends.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Kholos on September 17, 2019, 12:38:35 PM
If you come across something you think is wrong or not working feel free to ask or submit a bug report. Usually you can get an answer that either a) it's working as intended b) it's not a thing or at least c) if it's deemed too obscure it might be looked into. It really boils down to the zone creator adding messaging to keep you on track. Fortunately, zones go through a much stricter review than older ones.

As for opening your wall, maybe consider pulling a lever in a different room to open it. It's rare that a kw is a simple verb noun combination. Also consider a more intricate design where a certain order of operations will reveal a new area. Is it complex? Yes. But there should be clues or indications in the zone. Most zones are not intended to be solved in one go. You do what you can, develop a theory, and come back and try again.

Regardless of the complexities of high level zones, there is still tons of content that doesn't require kws to solve. There is a lot of content that you may not experience (IE gear) that you don't even know loads because the item is always maxed.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: oom on November 16, 2019, 01:06:22 AM
In the past people grouped around a lot more. Now people seem to be much more insulated as a whole, maybe it's because the hardcore groups of friends stuck around and the soloers slowly died off. Either way, information used to spread organically a lot more than it does now. At this point most groups of people kind of know what they know and it doesn't much change without some outside help.

I would say that maybe some of the same people complaining about decays "because we're old and don't have time to chase decays" might be able to understand where others are coming from on this topic. There are zones I've explored on and off for literally 5 or 6 years and still haven't 100% solved. I do enjoy solving zones but if people want help and put forth some effort I see no reason, other than greed, to not want to help them out.

On the topic of dissemination of information... Why the hell can't we get some actual help files about stuff. What do stats actually do? Is 5 learn better than 1int when i study a book? What about a charm? What about when I'm learning? Is 4dex better than 10 bash? What do my spells do? The lack of information about how things work in this game is ridiculous to me. It's a game for nerds and it hides all of the math. I would have a lot more fun and maybe a lot of items/prep etc people constantly overlook would see more use. I just don't get this magic behind the scenes crap. I'll also say I think it's BS that some people know the behind the scenes magic from current or past status on the wizlist, or from shared info, and others don't and probably never will. It's one of the things that honestly has sapped a portion enjoyment of this game from me.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Rajel on January 14, 2020, 02:08:16 PM
I dunno; I skimmed this thread and I THINK I disagree in part... that this game continues to have mysteries is what has kept me coming back, on occasion, for 20 years.  On that note, being a soloist by nature has not helped on that front.  I think I should find me a guild.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Alecto on January 14, 2020, 06:00:47 PM
As a point of reference:
I have played this game every wipe since 1993. I have several zones in the game, and contributed so several more. I am currently active on creation. I am in one of the big clans that runs all the end-game content. I still have no idea if 4 dex is better than 5 bash (I'm pretty sure 10 bash is better, at least if you are trying to bash). Someone just told me that -AC impacts how quickly you learn parry. I cannot even figure out if its true or not, and I have more access to this game than about 95% of the players!

Arctic has always been a mystery, and the mysteries don't suddenly become apparent when you hit a certain point or make a certain friend. That mystery is part of its appeal, and is why the most cutting-edge technology of 1993 still drives an aging player-base to incur the wrath of their spouses and spend quality time sitting in front of a computer reading and typing really fast.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: eddiex on January 19, 2020, 04:14:10 PM
This post is hilarious. Quitting because you can't solve a zone? Sounds like a personal problem. I've spent literally hundreds of hours in a single zone to figure out how to open that wall, and you want that for free? Millenniums these days. *Grumble*

If a zone warrants keyword changes it' because the rewards are meant to be for those who actually invested time in to the game. If creators/game imps see that too many people are being fed that info, they change it. It isn't hard for someone who actually spent the time solving the zone to resolve a kw.

That being said, there are plenty of zones out there that don't have their kw's changed. If you don't like having to work for your knowledge, stay there.

My grumpy ass 2 cents.

Keywords should not ever change unless the entire zone is being revamped. There is no way of definitively determining who has and has not acquired the knowledge of how to solve a zone "legitimately".

Someone who is close friends with someone who solved or created a zone can easily acquire information they did not spend hours and hours to acquire.

Also, people who have not solved the zone but have had the kws can also reverse engineer solving the kw in some cases.

Honesty and fairness will never be a Hallmark of ArcticMUD.
Title: Re: Dissemination of Information
Post by: Terk on January 20, 2020, 09:32:02 PM
It may surprise some of you, but I always thought it would be nice if there were explanations for zone quests after a period of time a zone was in the game.

I think I asked imms to write this sort of stuff up for low mid zones, and the only one that got done was me writing up the Solace weapon quest. It’s a lot of work.

I obviously don’t speak for the staff, but The truth is, if the player base wants to put up zone walkthrough or hints on reddit or some other site  these days it would be very hard to police. Frankly, I bet if moderators of such a site asked an IMP to review the content, there would even be a way to get it approved by the staff.

But the sheer work it would require to write all of these up for all zones is a lot, so it probably needs to be more player driven than imm driven from a practicality standpoint.