Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kadaj on April 04, 2019, 04:33:10 PM

Title: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on April 04, 2019, 04:33:10 PM
Would you rather explore new zones or old zones revamped, just a simple question I want to get answered.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: blackmagus on April 04, 2019, 09:17:16 PM
Are you planning on goading staff into making new zones on the strength of your poll results?
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on April 05, 2019, 05:46:01 AM
Who knows?
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Gnua on April 06, 2019, 08:02:13 AM
Are you planning on goading staff into making new zones on the strength of your poll results?

or maybe he's trying to say that he doesnt want to lose the old zones if/when new ones come in.  old qualinesti quekul shadows thorbardin feel like old favorites to some.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Terk on April 08, 2019, 01:16:26 PM
This seems to be an oversimplification. I think there are a lot of factors that go into deciding on revamp vs. new zones.

1. Creator interest and passion
 Surprising as it may be, it is a whole heck of a lot harder to come up with a zone story and design from scratch. It's much easier to have that story and then make rooms around that story. As an example, it took me a long time to make Deep Mine [1.5 years]. On the flipside, Loopley and I hammered out Falstaff Manor and the Blighted Farm in about 6 weeks. Now, granted, I was a faster creator by this point, but the inspiration was easier to draw from.  It was easy to make stories around a noble manor and rundown old farm on the outskirts of Palanthas rather than a brand new place in an area of the game nobody ever went to. In making those stories, however, it wouldn't have made a lot of sense to leave Matthias as a much poorer neighbor or a run down old farm next to one rife with intrigue and murder.

 On top of that, creators want to take on projects they want to take on. Creation is a lot of work. Unless you are really passionate about making the next Castle Uth Wistan (~8 year project), you won't get it to the finish line. If you want new zones, you may have to take revamps if that is the only thing the Creators want to do.

2. Changing times making old high zones way too easy for the gear they produce, but nobody wants all their favorite items to be removed.
 It makes no sense to be able to solo for gear that was meant to be done with a full group in the past. The gazer's eye is a good example. For a long time this was one of the absolute best items in the game. If you don't revamp the zone what you get is a world class nerfing on beloved equipment. Nobody likes this. [disclaimer: I know nothing about the new Qualinesti at all]. Like Brama, we all love shinies. This is a big part of the thinking behind the Sanction revamp. Sanction had quickly become 1-2 mannable but was still loading some of the very best weapons in the game. With a small revamp, we could keep those items strong and even add some new strong ones in. On the more extreme scale, both HCT and Graknar loaded way too much good stuff in what had become soloable zones; this created a need for a HCT revamp and CoT [a zone I like, but that certainly has its flaws]. As you may note, a lot of the classic items [dragon orb, suit of dragon power, etc.] from HCT and Graknar still exist today and many new items were added to boot.

3. There are many examples of well loved revamps that are more popular than new zones.
In my mind Dragonarmy Training Ground is one of the best zones in the game. I'm quite partial to Falstaff manor and the Blighted farm. I certainly like the new Dargonesti and Sahuagin, as the old ones were always a bit lacking. Solace tree (and I think Solace in general) is now a beautiful zone, and you can still jump off it! Neraka couldn't be more exciting. Hell, I'm sure someone out there just loves the new Dargaard or High Clerist Tower.

4. The more popular a zone is the harder it is to revamp.
Refuge (Nyte's), HCT, Qualinesti, Shadow were all main stays of the game going back to the "glory years". The reception for revamps is inherently going to be lukewarm. This is more a warning for future creators. It's really hard to revamp a favorite and get a positive response. While the work may feel important, it is better to make a revamp of a zone with flagging popularity than one of the most popular zones in the game. I for one would love to see a Largus revamp. Blacken, Icen, and Greenen could use some love. Hell you can even add in a real Redden!

Final thought. If old Thorbardin is one of your favorite zones (an empty colossus with no interesting fights and lame secret passageways), I think your zone calibrator is way off track. 

Terk out.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Iadus on April 10, 2019, 08:04:38 PM
While Terk is making some excellent points, the focus of the game is just so much more casual now than it was before. It has become a place nostalgia for the people who lived and breathed it in the past. A good portion of the usual heavy wipe-long hitters have left this time around because of the decay timers. It's just so disheartening to only be able to log on a couple times a week and see that a good portion of your equipment decayed while you were gone. We simply do not have the time to dedicate to play the way we used to love to. We're all big kids now, and most of us have little kids of our own that dominate our free time schedules. Without the ability to load these strong items ourselves, we're weaker, and the nostalgia loses luster. That being said, I am a fairly new creator who is going back to school to learn programming, and I would much rather create a new zone than revamp an old one, mostly because a new zone doesn't come with any expectations for me to have to live up to. I want to start fresh so that I can learn as I go without feeling the need to live up to what someone who was likely more experienced than me did however long ago. I don't know how learning to create was in the hay-day of the game, but, right now, it's mostly me teaching myself with some help from anyone who is around for me to latch onto when I see them. I've received many offers of help, and am grateful for any/all assistance I've been able to get, but, I'm usually on by myself.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: mikey on April 10, 2019, 10:15:42 PM
Terk does make some excellent points and gives me some new perspective on creation, but his point #2 really concerns me.

This idea of zone design around the few(?) players/clans that have the skill/knowledge to duo and solo these zones seems wrong.
Most these places I couldn’t have come close to beating with a full group and now they are buffed? Sadness.

If all the areas are made to give the best players a challenge what will be left for me and other not-so-great players?

For example, things like the dragon changes seemed absolutely awesome (I agree dragons should be super scary!), but in reality, this just caused my group of friends to give up on every zone with a dragon.

I guess that I'm worried that the development team only takes into account these better players while the less skilled players are actually losing content with each change and revamp.
Please don't forget about the little guy!

Despite my whine (I know I know, git gud right?), thank you all for working hard to keep Arctic going!  And thank you for the two-character system!
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kam on April 11, 2019, 12:33:13 PM
The choice to do a revamp or to create an entirely new zone is often driven mostly by the quality of the zone and the quality of the items therein.

Part of the issue of managing the overall balance of the game is that adding new zones means adding new items.
As we continue to add new items we must either remove or debuff older items to avoid the power creep issue.
Without removing or at least significantly debuffing older top tier items we end up in a place where the power of player-characters makes the game at large less challenging and less difficult and thereby easier to get higher tier items and thereby making the game easier, etc, etc, etc.

Issues that we aren't really able to address are that this power creep has been happening for years and has been heavily exacerbated by what has seemed like a more or less lack of oversight in the realm of new zone creation. The first steps we've taken to address this have been met with quite a lot of resistance and admittedly were not perfect, but we can discuss that in another thread which I'll get to another day.

Revamps that we've done are Isle of Shadows, Que Kul, Merchant Caravan. Only three, so what's all the fuss?

Isle of Shadow was a pretty complete tear-down. It's a whole new zone with some familiar elements. The old zone was boring and pretty linear with poor description work and some really great items. Most of it you could solo with a thief, pretty much all of it could be done with a two-four man group by just about anyone. The new zone is the most dynamic zone in the history of the game and it has still some surprises yet to be discovered. We're very proud and can't say much more because we don't want to give away the secrets!

Que Kul is very much the same zone it once was, just improved. It's also very dynamic and if you don't like the changes the core of the zone is still there and ready for boring step-kill xp if that's what you are into. I think there are still a few secrets in here as well, but I'd have to double check with Kholos.

Merchant Caravan was built by Ilya. So, like, yeah, but also the old Merchant Caravan was just a no value bend in the road and as long as the post is still there to lean on what complaints can anyone really have here?

Zones we have added/expanded: Village of Rigitt, Sandy Cove, Balifor Underbelly, Kalaman Dockyards (and Solamnic Ship).

We have two more new zones ready to go into the game called Trade and Farholm which should be in sometime this weekend.


If the idea is that you want to judge the current staff's efforts for the revamps of the past then I can't help you with the motivation there save to say that almost all the zones that were revamped/replaced were pretty much crap in their original format.

Thorbardin for instance was built in 16 hours by Cale. Overnight so that he could get a promotion to 35 because that was how they did things back then.



It's important to remember the history of creation on Arctic. When the game started they just needed content and so the standards for creation were pretty low. What mattered was that the game "feel big" because most other MUDs at the time which we were competing with for players still also had very little content. In the heyday of MUDs being an immortal on a creation port was way less fun than being a mortal and killing your friends and enemies.
As a result of all this "manifest destiny" style creation we've been left with a lot of stuff that is kind of crappy and that is the stuff that we want to replace.

So rather than post a poll about whether or not your prefer revamps or new zones, let's try one listing some of the crappiest zones in the game and tell me which ones you'd like to see revamped the most. Or, send me an email with your great zone idea that you have and come build it, or, if that's just not for you, send us your ideas anyway and maybe we can bring it to life for you.

Tell us about what you like and we can do more of that, tell us all the things you hate and we don't really get much traction from that.


Let's try to keep this thread directly related to zone creation be it revamps or new zones. I'm happy to continue hearing your thoughts and questions.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on April 11, 2019, 01:42:05 PM
Everything that has been posted on this thread has been great. It's nice to hear the thoughts of other immortals on this issue. What I think the majority of players don't like seeing, is their old favorite zones being removed and replaced with something else. I 100% agree, the new zones that were revamped are amazing, above and beyond what their old versions were. My biggest thing with revamps is that after that is all said and done, we are still left with the same amount of zones.

If the power creep is real, adjusting the current items in these poorly designed zones to reflect how easy it is to get is totally fine by me. Replace the old 'good' items with other items suitable to their difficulty.  Like Iadus stated, as a new created, I would feel an immense pressure to recreate something that has been within Arctic for a long time. Having the freedom to create new zones without the pressure and having an actual passion for would help the creation process quite a bit. Being asked to recreate a shit zone into a non shit zone that you don't care about can really slow down the creation process.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: jwhite on April 12, 2019, 07:24:34 AM
i feel like the plight of the newbie is being completely ignored here.

what i am hearing from kam and terk is that to match the power creep of items and spells i never see, there must be a difficulty creep.  it seems like every zone that gets revamped comes back 2x as tough.

fun stuff i used to be able to sometimes beat has to be scratched off my list every time there is a revamp.  and as others have said any fight with a dragon seems certain death now.  hell i cant even beat the que kul motherworm anymore!

it seems like there must be some way to create new challenges for the clans without destroying the game for the newbies.  does anyone care?
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Terk on April 12, 2019, 10:34:15 AM
re: "Newbie content"

In the grand scheme of the history of the game, there is more mid-high/high 1-3 man doable "newbieish" content than has ever existed in the game (losing 1-3 zones to upgrades, which may not actually be the case if you explore them, seems like a small price). To me it seems like a bit of an albatross to see these concerns. Tons of the zones added to the game in the last 20 years are easily explorable as 1-3 man regardless of skill levels.

The game, at its peak popularity, for newbieish players was basically that you leveled on Palanthas or Kalaman city guards until you were barely high enough to be able to do Que Kul, Solamnic Outpost, Vry-kith, Gulfport, and Dargonesti and then you did those zones almost non stop for the rest of your characters life. You'd be thrilled to get taken to Shayd's, but there was high risk of death (lots of high level mages had like 120 hp). You could be added as the 20th member to a group going after Walcanar for stoneskin, but you'd invariably die to Aegis' prisms and the horrible healing.

If you were good aligned, you did sort of the same thing, except there were no guards to level on, so you had to spend a lot of time in Goblin Camp, Ogre Camp, Slaith Swamp, Xak, Gargath Keep (Kyst on the loose used to put the fear of god into half the mud), Faerie Kingdom, Blacken/Icen--greenen was way too hard, Lemish and Galazor were the apex of newbie zoning. Drac tower was near guaranteed death with those damn sivak's one stabbing half the group.

Today, with current character sturdiness, there are so many more leveling options and so many added zones the outcry about these "newbie" friendly zones seems comical. Most newbie teams could explore the majority of high zones in the game, but the sheer diversity of easy mid-high content that can be soloed is amazing. My advice is to just type help area and pick something you don't know.

I do kind of agree that one thing I loved as a newbie was killing dragons: the ancient red in the Plains of Solamnia was one of the "fun" things I got to when enough friends logged on. Maybe not all dragons should be developed with 5 legendary chars in mind, but I'll leave that to the people who actually work on the game now!
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Gnua on April 22, 2019, 08:08:05 AM
re: "Newbie content"

The game, at its peak popularity, for newbieish players was basically that you leveled on Palanthas or Kalaman city guards until you were barely high enough to be able to do Que Kul, Solamnic Outpost, Vry-kith, Gulfport, and Dargonesti and then you did those zones almost non stop for the rest of your characters life. You'd be thrilled to get taken to Shayd's, but there was high risk of death (lots of high level mages had like 120 hp). You could be added as the 20th member to a group going after Walcanar for stoneskin, but you'd invariably die to Aegis' prisms and the horrible healing.

If you were good aligned, you did sort of the same thing, except there were no guards to level on, so you had to spend a lot of time in Goblin Camp, Ogre Camp, Slaith Swamp, Xak, Gargath Keep (Kyst on the loose used to put the fear of god into half the mud), Faerie Kingdom, Blacken/Icen--greenen was way too hard, Lemish and Galazor were the apex of newbie zoning. Drac tower was near guaranteed death with those damn sivak's one stabbing half the group.


Your description is making me nostalgic for the old days. Kyst tracking a fleeing newb (or was is an experienced zoner with a sense of humor?) to neraka, half the mud dying over the next hour.  a party levelling a druid to 8, begging to find a leader who could get to haven or neraka, praying that the druid didnt fail fly.  4 level 30's suffering frag of their elite 4d4 prime because they are bringing a level 22 cleric to xak in hopes of loading a plain wooden staff.  people renting in kalaman inn, dying, and then dying again when they log in because someone left a hymelian sentinel in the reception.  and then dark knights arrived and once they turned out the lights, caster mobs couldnt area or target them with spells.  if my cleric learned cure serious i could "lead" a group of 4 tanks who instantly responded to my shouts to do cityguards and get 8k per kill. if i failed cure serious, i was stuck getting less than 1k because i couldnt get into a group and had no idea where to go.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kholos on May 01, 2019, 05:11:46 PM

Zones we have added/expanded: Village of Rigitt, Sandy Cove, Balifor Underbelly, Kalaman Dockyards (and Solamnic Ship).

We have two more new zones ready to go into the game called Trade and Farholm which should be in sometime this weekend.

You forgot Ancient Labyrinth, and the Blue/black/green Dragonarmy camps.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kam on May 02, 2019, 01:04:28 PM
Sorry, we just added so much new content at once.
More than in the last couple decades, I think, actually.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on May 03, 2019, 06:38:41 AM
You know, I really wish, Kam, that you would provide some meaningful information about the current state of the game, instead of logging on and making some snarky ass comment that you think is super cool or witty. Act like someone who leads this game, instead of taking all the credit for the hard work everyone else does.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Dyl on May 03, 2019, 11:07:42 AM
What sort of update do you want?  They have no active full-time coders, pvp was neutered, and a bunch of people want to remake old classic zones for some reason.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: blackmagus on May 03, 2019, 08:38:00 PM
You know, I really wish, Kam, that you would provide some meaningful information about the current state of the game, instead of logging on and making some snarky ass comment that you think is super cool or witty. Act like someone who leads this game, instead of taking all the credit for the hard work everyone else does.

Maybe he doesn't want to waste time on trash like you who want nothing more than to cut him down?
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: blackmagus on May 03, 2019, 08:56:33 PM
So how about instead of these passive aggressive posts and sniping, why don't you immort and make some new content yourself. If you're unable to meet the pre-requisites, how about instead you manually design zonelets on paper, write out the rdescs, mdescs and odescs for what you have in mind and submit it? There is a limit to what you can accomplish with the nihilism you clearly can't get past. So do something about it.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on May 03, 2019, 10:13:03 PM
I have emailed Kam three separate times to join creation. I've offered to help plenty of times. I just don't'appreciate the way Kam comes onto these forums and posts snarky comments.  I'm not hiding behind an alias at least.

I'm not trying to take away what Kam has done for the game.  But whenever I log on here in hopes of something new and enlightening about the state of the game, I just see these rude comments . I appreciate everything that all the creators do. The new Shadow is my favorite zone this wipe.  Que-kul was a blast to explore as well. I think people just want to know what's in store for the game that we all love.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: blackmagus on May 03, 2019, 10:47:41 PM
It was posted long ago that if you can build a zone outside of a creation role and submit it, you'll get instantly promoted. Try it.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on May 03, 2019, 11:48:46 PM
I can't think of anything more ridiculous than trying to create an entire zone in notepad.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kam on May 04, 2019, 04:05:27 AM
Welllllllllll, since you brought it up..

You've been given an opportunity on creation. You didn't do well. Tell that story.
This, for the record, is also a snarky comment and not an informative dissertation on the state of the game.

Though, perhaps I should mention that my larger posts about the state of the game are very heavily intentioned and sometimes take some time to write because I like to provide good and concrete plans for the future of the game in the hope that those who play will find the things mentioned therein to not only be worth discussing here but also enough to entice them to come back to the game perhaps after an absence of days or weeks or in many cases as we have seen lately after quite a lot of years.
In fact, one of these posts is and has been in the works for some time, it'll probably get posted soon (we're still figuring out what to ruin for you).

I do not take my position lightly, though you seem to enjoy making light of it. I do not believe that anyone cares for Arctic more than I do.

Nor do I believe that anyone else ever will. You want what you want because you are a player, it's why you'll never make it as a creator.
It's hard to see the wires in the circus, hard to know how the magic works, it ruins the circus, ruins the magic.

This game is my game and I do everything for it for the benefit of people like you who seem to care not at all for the people who devote themselves to its betterment.
The staff stagnates periodically because life gets in the way, but coming back to shitposters and scumbags doesn't exactly fill anyone with a desire to renew their devotion.

If you don't like the game I am running, play a different one. There are some great ones out there. None of them are like this, or as good.


But..
If you love Arctic, believe in the people who are working for it, to make it better, and maybe, just maybe, try to believe in them.
Believe that they do it out of their devotion to a game that they love, for a playerbase that they love, for an idea that they love.
Try caring about those people who have given you so much enjoyment, so much fun, so much fear and devastation.
Afterall, this is Arctic.

Code: [Select]
"Life is dangerous, Caramon. Just stepping out that door is dangerous! You
cannot hide from danger. Death floats on the air, creeps through the
window, comes with the handshake of a stranger. If we stop living because
we fear death, then we have already died."
-Raistlin Majere "The Soulforge"

The roads are long and tiring, be prepared.  The game is designed for
experienced MUD players; it is full of subtle dangers, so keep your:
eyes open.

    'You will be yet another pawn on this chessboard you call
     life.  I bind your soul to the mortal realm so you may
     play your part in the continual struggle.  This is not
     a gift.  As you will see, it can be your curse.'

Welcome to Arctic.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on May 04, 2019, 04:53:45 PM
Code: [Select]
[quote author=Kam link=topic=2386.msg13972#msg13972 date=1556964327]
Welllllllllll, since you brought it up..

You've been given an opportunity on creation. You didn't do well. Tell that story.

I do not believe that anyone cares for Arctic more than I do.

Nor do I believe that anyone else ever will.

This game is my game
[/quote]

Yikes dude.

As for my creation 'story' I was making a zone and decided to test out what spells actually did. So I started to cast them on myself and stat myself to see what benefits they gave. You know, because this game has no transparency when it comes to what things do. I've offered to help write every single help spell file.  I've offered plenty of times to help with anything I can because as you, I care about the game as well.

So let's take your own advice......if you want Arctic to strive and succeed and bring people back, ACCEPT HELP when it's offered.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Hoodoo on May 04, 2019, 06:56:05 PM
To be fair, if casting spells and statting was the issue... who wouldn't do that, given the idiotic obfuscation even two decade players live under.  I certainly would... immediately.  If for no other reason than I can't properly build a caster without knowing actual buff effects.

Either there was more to it, or the builder rules are... hilariously optimistic given the history of this game. 


You can absolutely map a zone, odesc/mdesc/rdesc it on paper.  Easiest way, really.  Only the softcoding aspects would need builder access.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Hoodoo on May 04, 2019, 06:58:40 PM
If you want to see a mud, originally developed alongside this one, which has completely been bapted by actual malicious or biased imms, check ArmageddonMud.  Makes Hoss look like a management guru.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: blackmagus on May 04, 2019, 09:47:44 PM
To be fair, if casting spells and statting was the issue... who wouldn't do that, given the idiotic obfuscation even two decade players live under.  I certainly would... immediately.  If for no other reason than I can't properly build a caster without knowing actual buff effects.

Either there was more to it, or the builder rules are... hilariously optimistic given the history of this game. 


You can absolutely map a zone, odesc/mdesc/rdesc it on paper.  Easiest way, really.  Only the softcoding aspects would need builder access.

If it was an issue? Because he didn't have enough access to get the current spell_dat information, he misused his position to get game information. What's ironic is all of the screaming about cheating when someone admits doing it themselves.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Hoodoo on May 05, 2019, 11:02:17 AM
Again, it is impossible to appropriately balance a caster w/o knowing spell effects.  If you are building mobs, you need to know these things. 

To give people easy access to the knowledge we would all kill for, and expecting them not to use that simple expedient to gain knowledge needed for your job, is about as bright as a smashed lightbulb.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Hoodoo on May 05, 2019, 11:10:44 AM
Add to this the fact that most of the overlords were at one point members of a clan built upon and based upon the concept of "cheat to win" (Shriners...ShrinerMud port.. mudding from the server room at Berkeley... mass deleting clans who beat them in Tarsis Square...)  Hoss's previous immortal was deleted for cheating... at least 2 other overlords had major cheating scandals..


And we're worried about one guy trying to gain knowledge he needed to build in the first place?

I have probably played w Kadaj , but I don't know him.  Just saying... perhaps we might take a moment of honest reflection upon the history before throwing barbs, just for context.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Hoodoo on May 05, 2019, 11:17:14 AM
I am not defending Kadaj's tone towards Kam.. Kam has done incredible things, and were social aspects different, I'd be playing.  But claiming that as cheating in the face of the many, many actual, drastic instances of imm cheating which have affected the players of this game in the past seems odd.


Again, I tend to think there had to be more to that.  That kind of info ised to be handed to Shriners in a handy and informative cheatsheet.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Jorake on May 05, 2019, 11:18:57 AM
Who is Blackmagus? Man do you have a chip on your shoulder. Has Kadaj.... touched you? This is a safe space. Show us on the doll.

I do agree with Hoodoo and Kadaj on everything really. Capt the Kam stuff. I dont notice snarky comments.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: blackmagus on May 05, 2019, 07:06:11 PM
Common sense isn't having a chip on their shoulder. The fact Jason is defending that kind of action is surprising however.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Hoodoo on May 05, 2019, 10:23:00 PM
Not only is it literally the first thing I would do on a builder, I would be shocked to find it out of bounds.  I have built on other muds. To balance a fight, you need to know spell effects, not guess at them and log onto your mortal to do 100 tests and collate data.

It's a silly rule which ignores both the needs of the builder and the reality that I literally learned this game (as did many others) after realizing that some people have illicit information, and while I will never be told said info, I can group, observe, and glean the castoffs of their cheating... as there is no other way to learn the things some people treat as common knowledge.   

While I can accept that some people actually spent 800 hours learning Uth or two weeks staring at a bookcase in Righ, (unlikely but possible), the level of detail I have seen commonly distrivuted in groups re spell effects simply isn't achievable via means other than statting.  Trust me, I file such knowledge away for the coming years when I see it, hence the savant-like random knowledge with huge gaps... but of course, such basic knowledge should be available to more than those clanned with the lucky few.

A builder *needs* details on any spell which gets used in his zone... that's a minimum need for balancing.  However, the intentional obfuscation that this game calls spell help files have been a travesty since before Clinton was elected.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kam on May 06, 2019, 01:54:11 AM
Access to the creation port is limited to active creators only. Active creators are defined as people actually producing zones or helping others to do so.

Not everyone is good at it, most people stagnate and do not complete their zones. They really are a lot of work, most of which is boring.

After a long enough period of time these people are removed from creation. In the event that they should wish to come back, they can ask for access again.
For those who have had a few chances before and produced nothing the general wisdom is that they are a poor investment of time on creation port for the creation overseers and so they are not allowed the opportunity to return again.

People who are on creation port but not actually making progress on their zones but instead doing things with no purpose other than to benefit them as a mortal player are removed from creation immediately and not given another opportunity to help with the game in any meaningful way as an immortal.

Everyone that has spoken to me about a desire to get involved with the game has been given an opportunity to do so.
Not all of those people have followed through and that's okay, but it does mean that not every offer of help is going to be accepted.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Jorake on May 06, 2019, 05:12:43 AM
Yeah yeah ok. But who is blackmagus?
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on May 06, 2019, 06:12:18 AM
Access to the creation port is limited to active creators only. Active creators are defined as people actually producing zones or helping others to do so.


People who are on creation port but not actually making progress on their zones but instead doing things with no purpose other than to benefit them as a mortal player are removed from creation immediately and not given another opportunity to help with the game in any meaningful way as an immortal.

The only thing is, I was actively making a zone. I was making two zones actually. I also remade the entirety of Tantallon and Tantallon Keep and it was ready to be re-implemented until it was magically recovered.  So yes, I can create and yes, I am willing to do it again.

I think one of the biggest things that stops people from wanting to invest time into creation is the current rule set in place.

You aren't allowed to create what you want. You are allowed to create what Kam thinks people want. Forcing players to invest hours upon hours of time to a lowbie zone that will ultimately have no impact on the game as it is now is pretty much torture. If you are told to create something that you aren't passionate about or WANT to create, well good luck finding enough people willing to do that. Also having our Overlord go MIA for weeks on end when someone is waiting for a project or finalization of a project can really de-motivate someone.

Again, Kam, I'm willing to help on creation and many others are too, but allow us to do what we would feel passionate about instead of making another kender zone.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: blackmagus on May 06, 2019, 09:56:27 AM
Yeah yeah ok. But who is blackmagus?

Who is John Galt?
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kadaj on May 06, 2019, 10:07:59 AM
Yeah yeah ok. But who is blackmagus?

Some troll who hides behind an alias on a mid 90's text based game forum.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Hoodoo on May 06, 2019, 12:44:39 PM
I would suggest that BlackMagus wear his opinions loud and proud above a name like me, but we see how that worked for me, socially.  :) Likely, he's picked the best course of action.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: blackmagus on May 06, 2019, 07:03:59 PM
Access to the creation port is limited to active creators only. Active creators are defined as people actually producing zones or helping others to do so.

Not everyone is good at it, most people stagnate and do not complete their zones. They really are a lot of work, most of which is boring.

After a long enough period of time these people are removed from creation. In the event that they should wish to come back, they can ask for access again.
For those who have had a few chances before and produced nothing the general wisdom is that they are a poor investment of time on creation port for the creation overseers and so they are not allowed the opportunity to return again.

People who are on creation port but not actually making progress on their zones but instead doing things with no purpose other than to benefit them as a mortal player are removed from creation immediately and not given another opportunity to help with the game in any meaningful way as an immortal.

Everyone that has spoken to me about a desire to get involved with the game has been given an opportunity to do so.
Not all of those people have followed through and that's okay, but it does mean that not every offer of help is going to be accepted.

What's the chance that your upcoming post on the state of game can give more information on the direction your headed and the work you'd like to see on the creation end? A focus on the beginner experience, an addition to the Conclave quests that could give a chance for 5/6th circle spells, more mid-level zones for goodie alignments to make their progression a bit more varied, etc.?
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Zozen on May 06, 2019, 09:32:03 PM
I'm glad I brought a bowl of popcorn for my weekly forum reading.

-Sean
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kam on May 07, 2019, 09:51:55 AM
I'm glad I brought a bowl of popcorn for my weekly forum reading.

-Sean

Miss you, babe!
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kam on May 07, 2019, 09:53:53 AM
What's the chance that your upcoming post on the state of game can give more information on the direction your headed and the work you'd like to see on the creation end? A focus on the beginner experience, an addition to the Conclave quests that could give a chance for 5/6th circle spells, more mid-level zones for goodie alignments to make their progression a bit more varied, etc.?

Sounds like you have some ideas you should share with us a bit more formally.
Start a new thread and let us know what you're thinking, we are always happy to have constructive input.
Title: Re: Revamps Vs. New Zones
Post by: Kam on May 07, 2019, 09:59:53 AM
Thank you everyone for your participation in this thread.

I don't think that it has turned out well but the discussion of why revamps are important I think was covered pretty well earlier in the thread.

We will continue to do revamps and also add new content the same as we have always done.
Several of both are being worked on currently and we'll be excited to share them with you when we can.

Anyone interested in trying their hand at creation is encouraged to apply for an immortal.
Please read the updated HELP IMM APP before contacting a 34+ to apply.