Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bryton on July 11, 2017, 05:26:07 PM

Title: The Grind
Post by: Bryton on July 11, 2017, 05:26:07 PM
This wipe I decided to play 3 chars and see if it made the game anymore entertaining. After day three I was level 28, had some decent eq, and was rank 10.  Btw I wasn't grouping with rise, just my dk,shaman, and mage. After two straight days of geeking out I had to go back to work. My wife started to hate me(more than usual) when I would come home from work and play Arctic. So after about 4-5 days into the wipe I just quit playing.
 The grind to get to legend is insane for the casual player. Also the difference in a non-legendary and a legendary character  is insane. I realize people hat put more time into the game should get more out of it. I just don't agree with how extreme the gap is. When a causal player is level 29 and someone else is legend in the first 5 days of the wipe. That's the problem and why you see so many casual players whining on the forums. When a causal player grinds for days and hours to only be pked or dt they usually will quit and go play LoL, WoW or whatever. Because LoL is pvp but doesn't have a grind, and wow is a grind but you can't lose your stuff in pvp. So either Arctic needs to be a grind game with no way to lose eq or it needs to be less of a grind with the risk of losing eq. If eq were less limited, xp tables, and skilling were cut 50% you would see a lot less whining about being pked.

1.Either remove legendary to lessen the gap between the large casual player base and small extreme player base.
2.Leave the game as a grind and remove dts and pk
3.Make the game less of a grind(xp/skills/load rates), remove most limit items, and leave pk alone

I personally would prefer 1 or 3
 
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Attai on July 11, 2017, 05:38:26 PM
I don't say this often but I agree mostly with what Bryton has to say.

LoL is a grind to level 30 but then you can play ranked and if you lose you drop a few points
WoW is a grind but you only lose XP when you die and you can't deadbeat if you cancel your subscription for 2 years

Arctic is a niche game, you're not going to be able to attract many new players because its a text based game and there are so many good graphic games out to choose from.  I was in high school 20  years ago when I started playing, now I've got a wife and kids and a full time job and a really long shitty commute and I just can't play as much anymore which is probably the same for most players now a days which makes it hard to play like I used to.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Jorake on July 11, 2017, 09:50:51 PM
Removing legendary would run people off way way faster than them having to grind for it. It makes it so the casual player can still group a couple buddies and do some smaller/mid tier zoning. And if your buds aren't on you can still prep up and try your hand at solving something.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: oom on July 11, 2017, 11:21:22 PM
If you mean removing legend as in removing any requirement to become legend other than the 2 rank points then I agree. If you mean removing legend bonuses then I agree with Jorake. I have no desire to go back to pre-legend arctic in terms of character strength unless mobs in general become much weaker as well.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Nostramazos on July 12, 2017, 03:36:49 AM
Hey Bryton,

You are right about the immense gap between legendary and non legendary but this is not a bad thing. I am not sure where you're coming from as a player and whether you are one of those freaks that wants eq or starts wars over them but legendary status (although it is too much of a grind) does allow small clans from grouping more effectively and having fun without the need of eq. If you find your self soloing too much to get to legend then that is a problem of the relations you have established and not of the grind. In general, with a bit of tweaks on the rank system, reaching legendary is not as hard as it seems. A group of four-five friends can legend together quite easily.

I remember in the past you have attempted to create a clan of friends and casual players. If that is still your wish (and you are not an eq freak, sorry I have low tolerance for those) find anyone with Maza title online and let's get grouping. Dts, deaths and fun guaranteed.

Nostramazos
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Bryton on July 12, 2017, 12:12:19 PM
@attai ya I agree I'm more comparing the style of play and why people like the game.

@jorake I disagree, legendary made this game so unbalanced and hurt the causal player. Imms like jorquin and others have done things like buffing zones but it's still pretty unbalanced. That is why you are seeing so much whining on forums right now. Rise has 20+ legends in there clan after a week of playing and the gap is so huge no one stands a chance. But like I said in my post people that put a lot of time into this game deserve an advantage but the way legend is now the advantage is to big.Either make legend easier for the casual player to hit quick or remove it. You would see a lot less whining

@oom answered your post in jorakes reply

@nostramazos I've tried your style of play and it doesn't entertain me. But I love reading your posts and those entertain me.


So just to use an example

Rise/people with lots of playing time.
- legendary after a week
-which allows them to load all high end eq and spells by week 2 or 3.
-Makes them untouchable.

Casual player
- legendary after 2-3 weeks
-which allows them to get decent eq and most spells
- since they are late to legendary they get pushed around by the people that got it 2 or 3 weeks before them.

This is exactly what's happening.

-The fix-
-Lower xp tables a lot
-Make legendary available at rank 10
-Up eq loads and maxes(I thought everyone loved unlimited spiked wrist bucklers)
-Remove tether this shit causes so much trash and whine

-To cut the whining of mages, make them a single frag damage character, buff tent a bit and color spray. Remove nightmare,pws,prism, and blastwave. Pk shouldn't be decided on spamming pws and nightmare. This game is about skill, not who can spam one spell the most.

-let Druids be the area dam since there area is pretty well balanced.

All of this will make dying to pk/dt less dramatic and easier to recover from. All the other stuff like pk time frames or arenas kill the niche that Arctic has over other games and makes things pretty complicated.

"Keep it simple stupid" Michael Scott
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Willoe on July 12, 2017, 12:51:44 PM
Like most of what you said just need to include the skills grind as well.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: oom on July 12, 2017, 01:16:21 PM
Amen to all of this. Arctic feels like you have to grind non stop for days on end, sometimes not even xping, just going around to different mobs and doing a skill on them for no real reason, or getting your clan druid to log for 4 hours with triggers set up so you can superb banish(a skill that literally isn't possible to superb without either botting or wasting the life of 2 people simultaneously doing something neither considers fun in any way). Get rid of the stupid grind regardless of what is done with pk. You used to be able to roll a character, play hard for 2 days and you were ready for high zones and pk. Now if you and like 3 friends rolled characters and played hard for 2 days I would crush you 1v3 with my legend whatever with elite eq.

Make this game less dependent on equipment in general. This is the reason I play a shaman. Other than some super elite items I'm basically as useful naked or geared for most things. Jack was saying this in discord and I really think it's true. Raise the floor on all classes prior to equipment and then the equipment isn't nearly as unbalancing. Make equipment easier to load and people are more willing to do something that might cause them to lose it.

Some groups of players remain 'casual' because it took them 3 weeks of grinding to hit +5damage and there is no way they are going to risk 3 weeks of their life to explore dun mir or mithas when they would lose it all in 20 minutes. I think the immense grind and stupidity of training skills just removes part of the fun from all aspects. I feel like you should still have to 'earn' lvl 30 or legend or whatever, but let's face it. Legend is the new lvl 28, it just takes a LOOOOT longer to get there.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Thymorical on July 12, 2017, 02:02:13 PM
 Without pk this game is just like every other garbage rpg played and eventually returned to arctic for pk and ownage.. 

Gear being more available or less important would make the game better for the care bears id imagine.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: el conquistador on July 12, 2017, 02:13:30 PM
agree with oom.

thymorical it may need pk to you, but i havent even tried to kill anyone for 10+ years and i keep coming back.  arctic has a lot more different from typical rpgs than just full loot pvp.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Dagda on July 12, 2017, 02:39:12 PM
agree with oom.

thymorical it may need pk to you, but i havent even tried to kill anyone for 10+ years and i keep coming back.  arctic has a lot more different from typical rpgs than just full loot pvp.

I haven't pked in about the same amount of time. I still love this game.

There needs to be a balance.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Bryton on July 12, 2017, 02:47:43 PM
So I didn't ask if you pked or didn't pk. I and everyone else realizes this game has both people who like to pk and don't like to pk. So stop getting off subject. This solution benefits both.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Kadaj on July 12, 2017, 02:57:08 PM
Without pk this game is just like every other garbage rpg played and eventually returned to arctic for pk and ownage.. 

Gear being more available or less important would make the game better for the care bears id imagine.

Try playing the game with one character instead of 7 bots and killing people 8 vs 1, I think you would find PK a little less enjoyable.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Dagda on July 12, 2017, 03:33:12 PM
So I didn't ask if you pked or didn't pk. I and everyone else realizes this game has both people who like to pk and don't like to pk. So stop getting off subject. This solution benefits both.

I like your idea, fix the grind and balance power for casuals. I personally think rent should go as well.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Dagda on July 12, 2017, 03:35:11 PM
Though to expand on that non worn items should have some limit (spare primes/off hands) or requirement to vault them.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Valenore on July 12, 2017, 07:18:19 PM
Actually, it is more like:

Rise
- legendary after a week
-which allows them to load all high end eq and spells by week 2 or 3.
-Makes them untouchable.

people with lots of playing time.
- legendary after 2-3 weeks
-which allows them to get decent eq and most spells
- since they are late to legendary they get pushed around by the people that got it 2 or 3 weeks before them.

casuals
-the ones who know enough realize there isn't much reason to push the first month of the wipe because they aren't loading anything anyway.  Might as well wait until stuff starts to decay and hope you luck up and pop decent items (pretty much no hope of your top tier items anyway). 
-the ones that legend take 1-2 months (especially if you play a caster and have to grind spell loads)
-which allows them to get decent eq and most spells
-since they are really late to legendary they might can get decent gear later in the wipe when some of the hardcore players have quit or luck up and pop a decay that they won't get killed for.  If something to adverse happens along the grind (DT, targeted by a clan, etc) they will probably quit.


Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: zodiak21 on July 13, 2017, 07:33:17 AM
Why not just remove limits....bring pk back that way if u know a load u can just pop it...if u dont u pk for it just like arctic intended. The pbase no longer needs limit gear
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: octan on July 13, 2017, 11:21:38 AM
Why not just remove limits....bring pk back that way if u know a load u can just pop it...if u dont u pk for it just like arctic intended. The pbase no longer needs limit gear

Hmm... there might jsut be enough hate in this playerbase that limited eq isn't all that important for pk anymore :D hahahaha
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: kielmobile on July 13, 2017, 01:32:24 PM
fear is the path to the dark side. fear leads to anger... anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering...
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: xellos on July 14, 2017, 03:55:09 PM
Im pretty sure, Myth got a healer to legend before Rise this wipe
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Jorake on July 14, 2017, 05:15:18 PM
You think so? Pazzar was our first and only legend healer atm. Think he legended like .. 10 days ago? or so.

Cleric spells are so random now that its stupid as shit.

LEAVE CLERIC BOOKS ALONE KAM!
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: el conquistador on July 22, 2017, 12:31:46 PM
I think Bryton does have a point.  all the changes made to combat trash characters definitely made leveling and dying more painful. 

12 years ago if you were getting hunted it wasn't so devastating.  you could roll a new character and be back to high level in a couple of days.  now with ranks and xp the way they are, losing a character is a horrible, possibly wipe-ending event.

back then you could also roll a new character and hide among the large numbers of neutral and unknown players.  these days a clan like rise probably has a pretty good idea who almost every single character in the game is.  if you are someone they want to kill they are going to find you without too much trouble.

I also agree that ranks/legendary were probably bad for the game in a number of ways.  especially in how much they extend the gap between the best players with the most free time, and more casual players. 

but I would hate to see ranks/legendary go.  they are an amazing edition to the game for people who only play pve. 

tough problems!

Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Rinad on July 23, 2017, 04:07:11 PM
Bryton's got a great point.  Here's my .02 on this.

1.  In the past, I've wasted months of my life grinding day in and day out and I had like 5 legend characters last wipe.  My wife hated me playing for hours on end.
I had decent/limited equipment and ran most of the high-end content.  After spending a week or more on skilling and nothing else (lore, mend, etc), I still wasn't legend.  I started a thread and next thing skills got revamped.   It was a good change for the most part.  However, Bryton's right about certain skills taking way too long and the ones that are somewhat pointless otherwise.   Note- I wasn't working a lot and had endless time to play, so it wasn't a big deal to grind out the exp/ranks/etc.

2.  This wipe I am lucky if I get a few hours a week to play or on weekends.   With the 8 man groups and just lack of time to play, I'm still level 26 and slowly gaining.  I get left out of groups for other higher level chars/legends, which once you hit a certain point, soloing is not as fun and I log to play in groups with my friends and with the limited free time I get, if there is no room, I then usually log out and go do something else with my time. I notice if others are doing the same it lessens the playerbase considerably. 

3. Spamming the same 4-6 zones for a cleric/mage/druid/shaman spell takes away a lot of my desire to play.  I want to learn new stuff, but we're always chasing the same repops/spell hunting and frankly, I get bored as hell running dko/tot/storms/mom etc over 100x each wipe.  Only to do it again when someone legends and makes a new char, which leads to my next rant.

4. Soon as people legend, due to the time it takes to get there and the fact that legend races rule over most other races (except I feel casters don't get as much love, but that's another discussion), most either retire their chars and make a new one which starts the process over or they quit.   Then next thing you have is one guy with 3-4 stacked chars, since he has unlimited time on his hands and as a result, the slow guy (ie the one with less time to play) isn't geared at all.  It makes playing here less fun and I'm sure others as well get bored to the point where they quit 2-3 weeks in or take a few months break. 

So my suggestions to fix this: 
1.  Make the experience tables a tad smaller or fix some of the zones to be more balanced in ranks and exp.  Example: Deep Mines vs Tantallon.  Deep mines has way more ranks/exp per mob for the difficulty versus that of Tantallon.  Sorinthalas is another one that needs some rank love.     

2.  Make ranks refresh more often or make more mobs rank.   Fix the load rates on books so we don't have to run the same damn zones over and over to the point where I hate them and log at the mention of running them.   

3.  Keep the load rates the same but make the rent decay/decay timers less. So instead of 1000 tics make it 300 tics to decay or if the item is deep rented make it decay faster. This gives the smaller clans/players an actual chance to pop elite/limited items.  Don't keep the timers on the gear the same, that way elite gear won't all decay exactly a month in and then it makes it harder for a person to only log when he knows all his gear will be decayed at the same time.   Keeping it in rent and not being used in the game.  Part of the allure is being able to see the gear in use and not deep rented.

4. Skills have been fixed once, but again I feel most classes need certain skills revamped anyway, yet again another topic to be discussed and I'm open for others opinions and ideas on how to improve this.

That's all I got for now.  I hope I didn't ramble too much. Maybe someone else can chime in with some other reasonable suggestions.

Andy       
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Dagda on July 24, 2017, 07:04:59 AM
Those are all great points Andy. I hope that this is taken into consideration, legend is great but the grind is too much for casual players - and as such casual players get left out of experiencing content. Frankly, legend should involve a quest for each class that requires going to certain zones and beating them - if you want them to have all of the skills superbed, then limit the grind for the annoying skills or eliminate those annoying skills from legend requirements.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Homard on July 24, 2017, 08:02:47 AM
I've been casually playing on and off since the beginning.  I only played one wipe with a 'major' clan and I enjoyed it.  One thing that struck me when I started going into more 'elite' zones with a big clan was how little gear popped.  I always thought the lack of gear was just because I was slumming around in common casual zones.  I haven't played beyond level 15-20 the last few wipes because I don't have the time for the upper level grind.

My biggest frustration in this game has always been the knowledge that at one point, the guy I just spent a week figuring out how to get to and kill probably has a whole lot of interesting gear but I'll never see any of it because it's all rented away to keep anyone else from using it.  PK was never my thing, but I did my best to defend myself and I think PK belongs in the game and adds significantly to the atmosphere.  It amazes me how a few on the mud have the mentality of 4 year old preschool bullies though.

  I would like to see all items go no limit with smaller load percentages.  Make them decay quicker based on eliteness.  I'd also like to see all items a little more abundant.  Why not clan wars with more elite items in play?  People will game them and fight when they know it isn't going to cost them weeks to get it all back to fight again.  You might even get 3 or 4 clans geared in a wipe for more warring.  Everyone fights over the shinies so why not give the crowd what they want.  Worst case scenario is you go back to the way it's always been (incredibly gear restricted with everything deep rented) on the next wipe.  Best case is people have fun (fun makes new players stay) and stick around and create mayhem.

  Finally, some sort of a "fuel tank" for items could solve deep renting.  Items need to actively be getting rank xp to prevent decay.  If they're not actively played, they quickly go kaput.  Deep rent is the bane of all casuals, which a lot of us 30-40 year olds are now, and prevents a lot of casuals from becoming more hardcore.

  Thanks to the mud staff for keeping the game going since my early days in '93.  I hope Arctic can keep weathering the storm.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Rus on July 25, 2017, 02:21:40 AM
some sort of a "fuel tank" for items could solve deep renting.  Items need to actively be getting rank xp to prevent decay.  If they're not actively played, they quickly go kaput.  Deep rent is the bane of all casuals.

for me its no doubts best idea. so damn great and solving so many issues...
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Dagda on July 25, 2017, 02:43:20 PM
some sort of a "fuel tank" for items could solve deep renting.  Items need to actively be getting rank xp to prevent decay.  If they're not actively played, they quickly go kaput.  Deep rent is the bane of all casuals.

for me its no doubts best idea. so damn great and solving so many issues...

+1, best idea yet.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: blackmagus on July 25, 2017, 09:14:18 PM
Isn't that the same as active decay during rent, which happens anyways? Say someone needs to take a leave of absence for family, medical, military, insanity.. etc., what  do they have to come back to if everything  they had fast-decayed while they were rented?
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Homard on July 25, 2017, 09:46:05 PM
  Admittedly this suggestion swings far to the opposite way of current thinking.  If you have to take time away from the game. you have to go collect your shinies again.  Why do we as a mud population have to preserve long term gear sets at the cost of a large percentage of gear being unplayed for the better part of a wipe.  Look at it from the outside and it seems ridiculous.  The gear carrot and stick vanishes about halfway up the curve for 60-70% of the mud population.   That's why I suggested more gear around.  Fear of losing gear seems to be a driving force behind deep rent, lack of proper wars, everyone not exploring.
  Blackmagus the question is: Why is someone not playing entitled to have gear when the guy playing doesn't get a shot at it?  If you can't actively play 4 sets of gear you don't get to keep 4 sets of gear.  With limited gear the guy not playing shouldn't have the gear.  If gear limits go up, maybe rent timers should increase too as rented gear isn't going to impact others getting that gear to play.  Unlimited gear would go a long way to solving deep rent.  Why deep rent gear if you're not keeping other people from getting that item?  When so few people play now it becomes very easy for one small group to excel and hide away all the decent gear.
  We want people to play.  Fun game = more players.  Deep rent is the antithesis of fun except for a small group who would have every other player on the mud using iron swords and bronze plate.  I'm just trying to figure out how to remove the most unfun thing on this mud without bringing the whole thing crashing down.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Rus on July 26, 2017, 01:26:11 AM
Isn't that the same as active decay during rent, which happens anyways? Say someone needs to take a leave of absence for family, medical, military, insanity.. etc., what  do they have to come back to if everything  they had fast-decayed while they were rented?

1. its not the same, coz in case of rent-decay - u can just afk inned few hours/day to ignore this
2. Its not about 'family, job etc' - just few hourts/day in average zonning should be enough to keep low decay.
If 1-2 hours/day of zonning is too much... play another game? Noone saying about 24/7
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Bryton on July 26, 2017, 09:50:00 AM
Isn't that the same as active decay during rent, which happens anyways? Say someone needs to take a leave of absence for family, medical, military, insanity.. etc., what  do they have to come back to if everything  they had fast-decayed while they were rented?

1. its not the same, coz in case of rent-decay - u can just afk inned few hours/day to ignore this
2. Its not about 'family, job etc' - just few hourts/day in average zonning should be enough to keep low decay.
If 1-2 hours/day of zonning is too much... play another game? Noone saying about 24/7

1. No one wants to log and afk so that eq doesn't decay, most of our lives aren't this boring
2. This whole topic is about trying to play this game and making it more appealing for people with limited time because of family, job, life, ect. Where do you think our player base has gone??

Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: gruevy on July 26, 2017, 10:02:38 AM
If all the drop percentages went way up, item limits went away, and gear quit decaying, or some interesting combination of 2 of the three, I'd definitely come back. I could get over my other complaints from my other thread if there was actually shit to find as I explore and I was allowed to keep it when life kept me away from the game for a month.
Title: Re: The Grind
Post by: Thymorical on July 26, 2017, 02:16:28 PM
Unlimited grind fest would be fun for a month maybe.