Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Terk on July 11, 2017, 10:04:19 AM

Title: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Terk on July 11, 2017, 10:04:19 AM
Representation: Played this game a long time in Goda Vos, made a lot of zones, don't really play now, if real life freed up some time I guess I could be compelled to play again.

I had an idea that got some input from Reed, Sean, and a couple of other people on the "Rising Threat" thread. In order to bring this idea to a point of implementation, though, the details need to be worked out. I'm happy to try to arbitrate, but don't want to force anything. It works best with non-anonymous voices representing a group.

Quick Summary:
I think the fact that this game has limited/unique gear is one of the major differences Arctic offers over our graphical mass market competitors (You can argue if a 0.005% load on something unlimited inherently makes it limited, so therefore you don't need a hard cap, but thats really another discussion). I therefore think it is valuable that limited gear exists to be desired and PK exists so you can exorcise those desires from different angles (You don't have to wait until an item decays, or run something 500 times to get it, etc.). The counterpoint, though, is that our PK environment has made the game unpleasant for some of our players and we are not really at a stage in the game's lifecycle where we can assume that people who leave will be replaced. Though challenging to negotiate I think the answer can be setting a formal "Terms of Engagement".

Quote
1. When PK can happen?
--This could be anything from 6 hours a day at set hours, to MWF, to Half day Saturday/Sunday
--Possibly this could be hardcoded by modification of the PK damage automatically.
--It could be made to more or less of a disadvantage to not log in during PK hours

2. Are there exceptions?
--Maybe talking shit in game in non-pk hours is not allowed
--Maybe low level chars can't be killed?
3. Number of limited items allowed to be taken
--This could be all items or just a few with corpse return to defeated party.
4. What are the punishments for breaking the rules
--Immortal intervention of some kind. Pdeletion? Damning? Character stat reduction?
5. How often are rules reviewed?
--Maybe earlier in the wipe the rules are more strict, but later in a wipe they loosen up?

I think we should start with #1, as it is probably the biggest issue. What I'd like to see is a representative for each clan to discuss their perspective, so we can see if there is any middle ground in framing rule #1. I think we'd definitely want a representative from RISE, WILD, CORE, MYTH, Outlaw, RGB, Maza or similar clans with new names. If neutrals want to weigh in to, I think that can be helpful.

Please state who you are representing at the top of your post (sample at the top of mine).

Edit: Judging by the first response, I would encourage responders to just stick to the basics instead of unloading everything about what they think should be done coding wise for PK. The goal here is to see if the community can make terms of engagement that can be augmented by the staff, not to figure out how to fix PK with numerous coding changes, etc. When should PK be allowed? Just to be clear about the goal of this: PK is currently set up in a way that the answer is effectively never, should concessions be made so that the answer is sometimes? It doesn't really look like the answer is going to be always given the current environment. It's probably more helpful to pick a decision somewhere on the spectrum instead of at the extreme ends (never, always).
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Kholos on July 11, 2017, 01:30:08 PM
Representation: Habitual player of 15+ years, title setting immortal, reformed trash randomer, formed CORE over 10years ago

The opinions expressed are entirely unique to me. Frequently I have behaved in my perception of what my clan wanted, but this is how I feel about PK and the game.

PK: No time restrictions. However, I do agree that certain restrictions should be met. As I mentioned in another thread, relocate/summon toggle options could reduce the fear of wandering from peace. Another viable option is a NOPK flag in certain rooms/zones to allow for zoning during times of War. If entirely stripped of your playability, you are likely to quit when being targeted for PK. Not allowing the PK of low level chars (20, 25 perhaps?) would be great, especially for the few new players we do get. However, a glaring issue would be the transferrence of tier 1 gear to low level characters.

The punishments for breaking the rules as they stand today are fine, immortal discretion. The general concepts should be 'hard-wired' into the code. The review of the rules should also exist as they do currently, that is when an issue arises. A periodic survey/thread could also be introduced every 3-6 months on the forums.

PK in and of itself isn't the problem. The problems are the issues that stem from it. I want to be able to zone when people want to PK me. I want to not have to relog every week to foom/repop my gear. I want to have Huma's too. I want to not hate the game when I get killed and lose all my stuff.

I believe that a lot of these issues can be fixed, as Adepali suggested, by making gear limitless. Load rates set approriately, would not detract from the competitiveness of the game. It also has potential to balance the scales of power, if you will, as well as increase fairness (a concept us American's love so much) for all of the clans. Myth, for example, may never desire a Dragon Orb because even if they managed to load one, they will be forced to surrender it or die (by RISE, CORE, WILD, BSP, whoever). At the very least, when they lose it someone will be there to repop it. Therefore, the lower clans plateau, or reach a ceiling, with their goals and competition.

I will always support the increase in character malleability or power, and the increase in elite EQ (load rates or otherwise).

EDIT: I also wanted to add, I think a reduction in PK damage is a good idea. It's a fair restriction. Something substantial, but not impossible like 40-60%. This could be an option when creating where you chose your PK damage reduction, which in turn decides your damage dealt. Or a toggled option with a heavy cooldown.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: corey on July 11, 2017, 01:55:44 PM
Representation: Hardcore player of 15+ years, casual player of 5-8 years, reformed trash randomer, have had many "perfect" sets, never been on the losing side of a war, never lost a real set in PvP, NOWclan forever

I used to be the lowest of the low trash randomer. I was a straight asshole. I was what RISE is. I was successful but not to the point they are now.

It's not because they were better than I was, it's because there was better, more coordinated competition on every front.

This game has dropped its playerbase to next to nothing and I don't support PvP at all anymore because it just doesn't fit no matter how much you want it to.

I've been at the top of this game and I just don't enjoy any other aspect anymore other than destroying  zones on low numbers and wearing the best set I can.

I don't have the time to sink anymore into the traps, the coordination etc. I've come to terms that I've aged, the game has aged, and it will never be the same way it used to.

I can tell you right now that I know the logistics of what happens when "the dominant" clan kills you for no reason, and they will. You jump through hoops trying to just play again and, some day, some how, you WILL be killed again.

I can't do that cycle in his day and age and I know a lot of people are the same way.

If I die to something stupid like that where there's no coming back, I'm done.

1. Never
2. Tournaments
3. 0
4. Impossible to happen
5. Late wipe
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Attai on July 11, 2017, 03:04:00 PM
Representation: Played hardcore for many years, non-player last couple wipes, just tried coming back again this wipe.

PK should always be allowed however player restraint must be used and this last week should be a wake up call to what could happen if it is not.  If you're the top dog its easy to say I don't give a bapt about everyone else but I've seen it in the past if you used scorched earth tactics you may win the wipe but you're hurting the Mud in the end.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Willoe on July 11, 2017, 04:41:49 PM
Representation: Hardcore player for close to 20years. Major clan/zone leader. Immortal 33.

1. This is such a complicated issue and probably the heart of the matter. The problem being that if we set times when pk can happen, those that don't want to participate will just play during the off times. I think the issue is greater then when people should pk but to what extent and what are the consequences. The fact of the matter is that when you die, you lose everything. When you fall behind in a clan war, it becomes a landslide to where you almost can't play anymore. I'd love to see perhaps an ante system to where each clan focuses on an item or two that if they score the kill they will get those items but not the complete set. This keeps the other clan still fairly geared and allows them to keep competing. I would also like to see that perhaps there is a cool down timer for how often someone can get pkd, this way if someone gets jacked they have some time to play and aren't kept in the inn by the other side. (Perhaps even cooldown timer for clan in general once pk happens).

Hope this helps.

Ilya
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: blackmagus on July 11, 2017, 07:34:10 PM
Hardcore player since 2002, former member of Knights of Solamnia, Rebels of Taladas, VA and Myth. Actively neutral this wipe.

This game has seen seen it's early glory days come and go and sees the possibility of a new renaissance molded around it's smaller, aging playerbase. The new theme of the MUD; Casuals
Players need the ability to log into the game, make use of the active tutorial quests and helpful players to discover just how much content there is in our game. As they level and progress, they as neutrals will inevitably join clan groups in untagged pick-up spots and eventually join clans themselves. Unending, ceaseless war destroys the ability for small clans to organize or safely vet untagged players out of the threat of retribution by overzealous leading clans. (You know who you are.)

Limiting PK to a structured environment like a zone with spawning preps similar to a battleground is a good way to protect the newer playerbase while allowing old-style players the fun of PK.

1. PK should be limited to set zones at any time of the day.

2. Wars or challenges be done through a formal declaration against PK-flagged clans only. The PK flag should have something like a week cool down so there's no bouncing from an active PvP status to non. The declaring clan should be awarded a piece of gear, or points towards limited gear in a special merchant if their challenge is turned down. If the challenge is accepted, bigger rewards and limited looting applies.

3. One item of the choice of the winning clan for each member of the opposing team. For each caster, two items from  the winning team to represent classes not normally constrained by effectiveness of equipment.

4. Bypassing the rules would be hard, if not impossible as the rest of the game would be NO_HASSLE. If harassment such as zone sitting, zone manipulation, bug exploitation occurs, the consequence should be against the clan leader's main AND the member responsible. First charge, damning of offender. Second, deletion of offender, damning of leader, Third, deletion of same player/offender and the clan leader's main.

5. Wipes are shorter as a result of the smaller playerbase and the unwieldy action of our leading clan. If a new PK system is adopted, it may allow a more balanced wipe and as such the result should be reviewed every six months to one year.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: oom on July 11, 2017, 11:18:06 PM
Representation: Hardcore player for near 20 years. Clans - Maza Nostra, Horsemen, Ahma and KOS for about a week each(Thanks for trying to get me in Locke!), RoT for a wipe, Core for half a wipe, MYTH for several wipes, STH for a wipe, RISE for 3 wipes with a MYTH wipe sandwiched in between. Most wipes spent soloing with a DK

What really drew me to this game originally was the fact that if you went afk for more than 10 seconds outside of peace you would probably walk back to a menu screen and no gear. If you were soloing and died in pretty much any zone, if you didn't get back there in under 2 minutes you likely had no gear. Arctic was RUTHLESS back in the day.

The first guy I met on this game was a jerk cleric named Prothal who blinded me and tried to kill me in the solace sewers back when they were west of town and the path was filled with noobs who got charmed by looking at the faeries who were nearby. I ended up standing up in that dude's wedding like 10 years later.

I used to be legit afraid to walk from solace to palanthas back then. I miss that game. Even when my only contribution to the pk log databases was my DK Oom being liberated of Stormbringer by the SoB clan(you might know those jerks as RISE today!), I still thought it was great that PK existed and was a constant threat. Even when I quit for the wipe or couldn't play because of actual obligations I still loved reading logs of BSP fighting the Shriners and there was even one were this guy dropped a chest and some druid picked it up during a duel.

Unfortunately I don't think that game exists anymore. A lot of the problem I think we've been experiencing the last few wipes is that RISE and a handful of others still play 1998 ArcticMUD while basically everyone else is playing 2017 ArcticMUD. I don't know if 2017 ArcticMUD is better, I don't think it is but I'm not everyone. Even after RISE quits it's still basically the same game. There is one clan with all of the elite eq, the other clans don't do any end game content.  With an admittance that this is now 2017 ArcticMud this is how I respond.

1. Set all player damage to 0. Any aggro skill cannot be done on a player, no casting blind or silence, no zaps or bashes, no stealing or casing. Hitting can be done to remove silence or whatever, but hits are all absorbed by armor and deal 0 damage. Players cannot be killed by players. Create an arena that can be used at any time if some people want to fight for fun. When you die you get kicked out of arena healed with all gear. If 2 players want they could ask an imm to referee a fight over an item. Or set circumstances that would allow to challenge for the rights to an item(maybe if you were in the zone when an item was loaded you could force a challenge for it? I don't know about this idea).

Also with the arena I would use my idea from my other post. Once a week the 2 clans gaining the highest CRP for that week pick their best squads and fight for elite pieces of gear(dragon orb, nobash etc). This forces PVP on a meaningful level, even if the hunt/ambush aspect isn't there and also gives clans that might not have known how to load these items in the past a chance to win one through play time and some luck in the arena. Make the items comes up again in a couple of weeks to keep it fresh. Maybe also have some 'side events' at this time. A free for all with the last man standing gaining a rank. A 5v5 free for all with the winning group getting the choice of some non overpowered bonus's. Rank point, elite spell for 48 hours, etc.

2. Bring back bloody equipment in some form? Otherwise no exceptions.

3. None unless mutually agreed to bet has taken place. The reason to PK would be the prize fought over between that weeks top 2 clans.

4. Nothing drastic. 2 days in the abyss or something, maybe even just an hour or two depending on circumstances. No deletions if at all possible.

5. As needed, but at least at the end of each wipe and then again after the first month. Why not try some stuff out. Maybe in a couple of months start a new 'wipe' by purging all equipment but let people keep their characters and test out a new system so we can find something that works for the most people. There would be a massive competition for high end equipment if that's done! We'd get to see how pk or lack of pk works in a competitive environment again.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: el conquistador on July 12, 2017, 03:29:19 AM
hardcore noob reporting for duty.  i have played arctic on and off for about 20 years now!  ive been in various small clans over the years, RoT for a wipe, myth for like two months, many others i cant even remember.  mostly i am a neutral.

like most others i loved randoming back in the early days.  i was a huge asshole.  my favorite trick was charming 3 young adventurers and making them bash whoever i saw on the roads.  i once kept reapplying sleep to some poor guy in haven forest for over an hour.  he never quit out!  my favorite memory probably ever in this game was when my brother got pkilled and lost some newbie weapon he loved and me and all our friends got together and hunted the guy down.  then we all went over to my brothers place and he bought us pizza.  good times!

i am different now.  i no longer have any desire to ruin some random guy's day.  what used to be hilarious to me now just seems mean.  and it IS meaner now.  back then there were 200 people playing and 80% of us were complete noobs.  most of us didnt have anything we cared about losing and in fact we expected to lose it.  either to randomers or to dts or by attacking some mob i shouldnt have attacked, total equipment loss was almost a daily event.  it wasnt until my 3rd wipe that i reached level 25!

now everyone has a set of items they like and it took weeks to build.  every character hits level 30 and it takes huge amounts of grinding to get there.  getting pkilled is a big deal now!  especially since its almost never a one-off anymore.  if you are highlighted, and you probably are if you get killed, you are going to lose those items that took you weeks to accumulate over and over again.

earlier this wipe i got pkilled by core.  i wasnt too upset.  i didnt really have anything and i was afk in the street at the time.  so i just made a mental note to be more careful, bought some stuff out of the shop, and carried on.  core attacked me 3 more times the next day.  once as i was spam moving past - they had obvioiusly set triggers for me.  i had somehow gotten myself highlighted.  as what?  i am not sure.  i asked and was ignored.  possibly as an easy target who doesnt fight back?   i dont know.  but i have no interest in trying to fight a clan or in constantly looking over my shoulder.  i rolled a new character and will never play that highlighted one again. 

probably some people will say arctic is not the game for me if i quit whenever i am highlighted, but i disagree.  i love it and still have a lot of fun with it.  the pvp stuff that i have no interest in is really just a tiny part of the game to many of the players.  when i can stay away from that tiny part i still have a great time.

1. id like to see a no_pk option in character creation.  let all the limited items zap me and put a pink aura around my character where i cant be harmed by other players and i will be happy.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: adepali on July 12, 2017, 03:49:41 AM
Representation: Maza

Leave PK as is in game port.
Spawn a clone on a different port with no PK outside an arena.
See which one wins.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Jorake on July 12, 2017, 06:54:09 AM
I like this clone idea

I liked all of Ooms ideas
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Kafilat on July 12, 2017, 10:51:28 AM
I think Corey nails it but accept that Adepali's suggestion will probably win out in the end, issues of population-splitting aside.  I wish there was an option that is both sensible and realistic that lets us keep the game mechanics as-is but find the prospect unlikely.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Attai on July 12, 2017, 11:05:00 AM
Representation: Maza

Leave PK as is in game port.
Spawn a clone on a different port with no PK outside an arena.
See which one wins.

I can see 2 things happening with this option though
1) PK Game port becomes more like ArcticChaos Mud because bapt you you're not in my clan and you chose to play on the PK port so you're an enemy
2) Non-PK Game port everything is fine until a random group loads onyx shield and some goodie warrior loots and recalls with it and puts it on his lvl 13 mage because he always wanted to be nobash and now you have no way of ever getting it back

The perfect version of this game is 1 game port with PK enabled where people realize the characters they pk are played by real people who have also invested alot of time into this game to get where they were.  I'm all for PK, I enjoy PK and feel it is the best part of this game.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: corey on July 12, 2017, 11:10:38 AM
I think Corey nails it but accept that Adepali's suggestion will probably win out in the end, issues of population-splitting aside.  I wish there was an option that is both sensible and realistic that lets us keep the game mechanics as-is but find the prospect unlikely.

I think what you would find is the pk server would die very quickly due to no one playing on it and those people would mostly leave, some move over.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Bryton on July 12, 2017, 01:58:22 PM
@terk while I feel these are good ideas, I just think it's to complicated. I imagine most imms are older in age now and don't have time to babysit the mud and implement all of these things. Also I see way to many ways people can take advantage of this system.
Keep it simple refer to my "The Grind" post.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Bro on July 13, 2017, 10:14:46 AM
What about when:

1) Someone finds your corpse and loots it without returning it?
2) Some thief player steals items from you?
3) Someone rips you off in a trade?
4) Someone incessantly talks smack and otherwise harasses you?
5) Someone purposely breaks a zone to keep you from popping something?
6) Someone helps zone mobs by healing them or what have you to harass you?









Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: corey on July 13, 2017, 10:38:18 AM
What about when:

1) Someone finds your corpse and loots it without returning it?
2) Some thief player steals items from you?
3) Someone rips you off in a trade?
4) Someone incessantly talks smack and otherwise harasses you?
5) Someone purposely breaks a zone to keep you from popping something?
6) Someone helps zone mobs by healing them or what have you to harass you?

1. Instanced zoning!
2. No longer allowed!
3. Trade agreement screens!
4. There are options to ignore people!
5. Instanced zoning!
6. Instanced zoning!
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Bryton on July 13, 2017, 10:41:11 AM
.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: kanu on July 13, 2017, 12:23:53 PM
Representation: Habitual player of 20+ years, former immortal (hero-level), former WILD clan, mostly a scrub but knows more about the game than most casual players

I think there are a small number of items that should be very limited, and a slightly larger collection of items that when you possess them remove your no_pk flag, and a large collection of items that should be no_limit and do not influence you pk flag.

1. People should be able to choose whether they participate in pk or not. One way to choose is to set opt_pk to true, and another is to collect gear that sets opt_pk to true for you. This way no one can collect limited items that everyone else wants and no one can run around trash pkilling people who only have junk.

2. There are no exceptions to the pk rules except as above. If you throw a bunch of limited gear on your newbie, your newbie is fair game. Otherwise, your newbie is safe.

3. Only items that have a limit to how many can exist can be taken in PK. There is no limit to how many of these items that can be scooped in a single pk though. Unlimited items just remain with the corpse (but can be looted by mobs like now, these flags only apply to players). Yes, that may make corpse retrieval more difficult in some instances.

4. If someone is caught breaking the rules, which would happen infrequently, they have all of their characters deleted. The punishment for cheating or breaking the rules should be severe enough so that because of the infrequent number of times people are actually caught, otherwise people won't try to avoid being caught.

5. I think rules should be reviewed periodically based on some evidence or data of their change in player behaviour, which means implementing some transparent way of keeping track of player behaviour (over and beyond the pklog list) seems necessary.

The advantages of #1 is that it allows casual players to have decent gear. This past wipe I learned, for the first time, where some decent limited items loaded, because I played for the whole wipe and relentlessly did some mobs over and over again until I re-popped a decay and its owner for the rest of the wipe did not. Gear should not be so hoarded that it takes 20 years to learn where something loads because it is always gone in the first hours of the wipe and remains thereafter on someone else's character. This discourages casual players from exploring zones because they may have no idea what decent stuff loads there.

It also means that the really good stuff can still set people apart. I don't know exactly what should count as really good gear and what should not, but the list of really good gear should be long enough that almost every non-casual clanned character has a piece, but not so long that casual players are likely to have limited gear as well.
Title: Re: Terms of Endearment: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Rhak on July 13, 2017, 08:39:04 PM
Representation: Out of touch and ornery demographic, Erratic player of 20+ years, sporadic immortal, grouped with tons of people, dealt with a lot of you people in the last fifteen years

I want to get back into the game, no free time has been a huge hinderance for the last couple of years.  I haven't really been involved in pkill at all since having an immortal other than observing, but spent a load of time doing it before that.  Even if I don't participate in it I couldn't imagine the game without it, even at scheduled times.  Aside from the countless ways that unkillable characters could abuse mechanics, it just sounds boring.

If it needs to happen, I'd suggest having an arena or something set up for people to screw around in during the times where it is restricted and just have non arena kills banned through policy (I don't see this being enforceable in any way) or punished in some automatic way (huge loss of exp? loss of rank exp?) so it's not completely restricted, if you need to kill somebody it can still be done, but you'll need a good reason and pay a price for it.  Having an arena at this point could even help in general, as people will be able to actually practice fighting against tougher characters and see there are ways to fight back rather than the panic, lose, quit strategy.

If you limit the number of items to be taken out of a corpse, what happens to the rest? Does the corpse just magically teleport back into the person's inventory? What if they don't log back on? Does the attacker instead get to just stand there looking at a pile of stuff they can't loot for some arbitrary amount of time, or until they manage to frag it, rot it, get a mob to pick it up, etc.? Instead of limiting the number of items to be taken, what if there were ways for the victim to retrieve them somewhat safely? Use that old bloody equipment thing, but instead of having it flag people pkillable, throw in a resurrection spell that can retrieve at least some of the equipment back to the victim while the flag is active.  Could be limited in whatever way, only a certain amount of pieces, pieces with certain limits, flags, etc.  Limit the use of this in some way, time or until lost experience is regained or whatever. Ignoring the probably dozens of ways it (or any looting restriction) could be abused, it might take some of the feeling of hopelessness out of being slaughtered, but any way you limit looting in the end just makes it harder for the underdog than the top guys since it will probably be guaranteed that they will never get that decisive win to turn a war.
 
Punishments and rule thing, dunno people never respond to or listen to any of it anyway. Kill everybody.

If people already have such a hard time with self control to not drive each other away permanently, I can't see limited pkill or looting turning into anything but a nonstop abuse fest followed by the daily mantra of "You should've coded it differently if you didn't want us it use it this way, it's not our fault."
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Jorake on July 14, 2017, 07:17:53 AM
When you dt I believe your silver ring goes to your vault right?(I never dt so....)could it be set up to do that. So then even if you don't relog right away you can still get your stuff. But if you don't log within 24 hours you lose it all.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Jorake on July 14, 2017, 09:55:52 AM
I've had a change of heart of sorts. I no longer think pk should be limited at all. Police ourselves so we don't drive people away but the amount of zone tampering that is and will happen by every clan is going to be stupidly bad. X item decays. You see X clan there. So you sneak in and take a key or make it so they can't do it. This is similar to bannon losing eq. I don't know many rise and I don't like most of the ones I do. But Tim is a solid guy from what I can tell. Now he can't even attempt to get his stuff back. And he can't enjoy his shaman finally having an orb. So everyone is saying they just want to zone in peace and have fun with eq. Where is his fun now? If we are making pk illegal make looting other people who haven't given you consent via the consent command illegal too.

Every clan is going to do this. I would do it. And I'll state that openly. If myth lost something and I seen it loading and could prevent someone else from taking it. Yup. Zone botched.

This is a good area of discussion for the arena. Set that up so player a can challenge player b for X item maybe.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Jorake on July 14, 2017, 09:58:47 AM
And I can't even fault Jonas for looting it. Smart move. It just sucks bannon has no way to fight or challenge to attempt to get his eq back.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Kadaj on July 14, 2017, 10:01:20 AM
The fact that we have to actually have this type of conversation is pretty pathetic. If people would act like normal bapting people we wouldn't have to have these discussions once a month. Policing yourselves is the only way everyone will be happy as that requires the least amount of change. Grow the bapt up and stop acting like god damn neckbeards and realize no one gives a shit what you've done on this text based game that is as old as dirt. No one bapting cares. Just be civil and enjoy the great Dragonlance game we all grew up with. Find a different game like League of Legends, H1Z1, Player Unknown's Battleground, World of Warcraft/Tanks/Airplanes/Submarines or any other Player vs Player game to compete in. Those games have WILLING people to compete against. Right now people just don't want to deal with that type of dumb shit in this game.

TL:DR   Grow the bapt up, enjoy the game for what it is and not what you think it still is.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Dagda on July 14, 2017, 11:55:32 AM
The fact that we have to actually have this type of conversation is pretty pathetic. If people would act like normal bapting people we wouldn't have to have these discussions once a month. Policing yourselves is the only way everyone will be happy as that requires the least amount of change. Grow the bapt up and stop acting like god damn neckbeards and realize no one gives a shit what you've done on this text based game that is as old as dirt. No one bapting cares. Just be civil and enjoy the great Dragonlance game we all grew up with. Find a different game like League of Legends, H1Z1, Player Unknown's Battleground, World of Warcraft/Tanks/Airplanes/Submarines or any other Player vs Player game to compete in. Those games have WILLING people to compete against. Right now people just don't want to deal with that type of dumb shit in this game.

TL:DR   Grow the bapt up, enjoy the game for what it is and not what you think it still is.

*applause*
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Bryton on July 14, 2017, 12:43:41 PM
The fact that we have to actually have this type of conversation is pretty pathetic. If people would act like normal bapting people we wouldn't have to have these discussions once a month. Policing yourselves is the only way everyone will be happy as that requires the least amount of change. Grow the bapt up and stop acting like god damn neckbeards and realize no one gives a shit what you've done on this text based game that is as old as dirt. No one bapting cares. Just be civil and enjoy the great Dragonlance game we all grew up with. Find a different game like League of Legends, H1Z1, Player Unknown's Battleground, World of Warcraft/Tanks/Airplanes/Submarines or any other Player vs Player game to compete in. Those games have WILLING people to compete against. Right now people just don't want to deal with that type of dumb shit in this game.

TL:DR   Grow the bapt up, enjoy the game for what it is and not what you think it still is.

That kind of attitude is why 3 weeks into a new wipe we only have 28-38 players on... also 12 or more of those are bots. People should be able to act however they want and if you don't like it do something about it besides whining on forums. Your guys whining has caused imms to make horrible changes to this game and that is why people have quit.
 People whine about mages, so imms put in a sheaf and casting level eq  system. Which created more whining.
People whined about people being able to make a trash character to easy, so imms upped xp tables. Now people are whining about how to can't play casually anymore.
People whine about damage output, so hoss lowers all eq stats. People whine even more that they don't do damage.
People whine about eq limits, so imms put in wrist bucklers and other eq unlimited. Then people whine about trash chars getting dams to easy. So imms remove it. Now people are whining for it to come back.
People whine about the game being to easy, so the imms lower groupsize to 8. Now people are whining to change it back.
There's so much more stuff. The funny thing it's probably the same 10 people that whine for something but then realize they don't like the change, and go back to whine on the forums. .

Bring the game back to the way it was, the game that got all of us addicted for such a long time. Before the imms  started listening to all of these idiots, causing them to make awful decisions. The only changes that should be made is ones that bring us back to the original Arctic. No one has played this game the last 10 years only for it to become a text base WoW. bapt a pk arena that shit will never work and it's a horrible idea. I guarentee the same people that want a pk arena will whine and cry after its implemented.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Kadaj on July 14, 2017, 12:58:35 PM
I would like you refrained from grouping with with 'you guys'. I posted this on my own as I am not part of any clan nor have I been for a while. I don't give two shits about clan politics anymore, I don't get targeted by anyone and I don't target anyone. I say this simply because they asked for an opinion and I gave it. I don't really care what you think about the situation either, Bryton. Half the time you complain that the game is too hard and you can't get to legend in a day, the other half you pretend to know what the game was like when it was in its prime. I agree that people should be able to act the way they want to. But all actions have a consequence. Do I agree that the immortals should take action? I think they should stay out of it for as long as possible while the game remains healthy, once people start acting like idiots and driving people away then yes, immortal action should be taken. Again, no one gives a shit what you've accomplished or how badass you think you are on the internet. Stop fooling yourselves.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Patpat on July 14, 2017, 02:54:25 PM
Long time player. I don't really rush or play to compete against other players, if I pop a decent set its usually because other clans aren't active or have quit for the wipe. Currently actively playing and play with a small group of like minded players who avoid pk and are PVE focused only. If we're able to accumulate some eq we like to do/solve endgame content.

1.  Pk happens only in some structured environment that ppl don't have to be a part of if they don't choose to. (be it opt pk off, arena/battleground areas, pktime once a week or w/e are all acceptable). Of the options some sort of battleground area/zone/city seems like the most interesting.
2. see above
3. All eq can be looted if players have opted into pk. If player is not opted into pk they can't be looted or loot a non groupy/clanmember.
4.
5. Wipely review of the rules.



Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Jorake on July 14, 2017, 05:12:01 PM
I actually like the opt_pk thing. This would work best on a timer of sorts. Like 5 real days. If you turn it off to go agro on someone for whatever reason you cant turn it back on for 5 days.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Gramm on July 15, 2017, 07:14:17 PM
Perhaps its not that pk shouldnt be allowed, its perhaps the immortal intervention policy that needs a tweaking, are there not any laid back immortals with the right mindset to judge whether a clan is being way too agressive and needs a spanking now and then?

I honestly didnt think the mages poofing in to bapt around was a terrible idea, sometimes people need a good smack upside the head, im not saying THAT time was THE right time, i dont know anything about what happened really, between rise and the "godmages" BUTTTT
removing pk entirely takes away from half the people on this game, to cater to the other half.

So why not leave pk in and have fun with it? who cares if rise myth core wild whoever doesnt like it, if imms poof in and stunfest you all to death, its probably because you did something cruel and unusual to another player and thats justified in my personal opinion sometimes

Removing pk and or leaving it, is going to mess with someones day either way, current system is broken if people can still loot a non clansmans corpse, because truth be told that dude looting tims corpse really deserves to get hunted for ripping them off all their hard work in a way that they could never even attempt to ammend the situation for what? dying in a bad spot 1 day after the rules were altered. seriously when goodtim walks from this game you lose a good asset to this playerbase, kudos to kholos whoever that cool person is.

One other thing, if the point of you doing this was to stop people from driving other people from this game, that really backfired watching shady crap that go down and dude getting away with it unmolested for that kinda thievery.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: xellos on July 15, 2017, 08:01:34 PM
give me my silver girdle gramm or else
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Chisul on July 17, 2017, 09:53:37 PM
Rep: Over the years I've been a mostly neutral clan-hopping lamer. Been around ever since a crazy Malaysian in college introduced me to the game some 20 years ago. Currently MYTH follower and occasional zone leader. Fought lots back in the BSP era.

Proposed Solution: Create two circumstances where PVP damage can happen.

1. A non-clan tagged character is full PK mode. Can be killed by other non-clan tagged characters and does 100% damage to other non-clan tagged characters.

2. Clan-tagged characters are 0% PVP damage. Until Clan Chieftain uses a new function CLAN WAR to declare war on another clan. Once the Chieftain of the other clan ACCEPTS the CLAN WAR tag, it's 100% game on between all clan-tagged characters. BUT they are 0% PVP damage against anyone else.

For Example:

Rasheed (Chieftain of Squirrel Clan) declares war against Meddaugh (Chieftain of Anna Clan). Meddaugh can choose to ACCEPT or DECLINE. If it's accepted, game on. If not, PVP damage is still 0%.

Of course there would need to be a mechanic for CLAN PEACE where Rasheed (after getting his clan gets beat on enough) decided to ask for peace. Terms are settled between Chieftains and Rasheed then uses Option CLAN PEACE and Meddaugh accepts it.

Now before everybody looses their mind about transfer of eq from PK players to non PK players, we simply state anyone getting caught doing it is deleted. Period. If you receive eq in a transfer to protect it from PK your char is deleted. If you pass eq to a non PVP character you get deleted.

If a war is on, any of the cheating cheapness simply results in the red button being pushed. With the option of deleting additional characters as determined by the upper staff.

No need for arenas, No need for special PK days, a separate port, we just keep it simple to those that want to enjoy PK and go un-tagged and kill each other till they are blue in the face. Or if two clans wanna duke it out, get after it.

Those that want to explore and collect shiny eq without fear of losing it can continue on in their Carebear little way with no fear of getting "ambushed".

There should also be an option for those who flame excessively on the forums (you know who you are) to get their butts whomped on the mud simply on principle...but I can't think of a good way to make that happen. I'm serious about this one. There is enough asshattery on this forum to make me want to puke.

Matt
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Bryton on July 17, 2017, 10:24:26 PM
Representation: player of 10ish years, always wanted to be an immortal, been in a few clans all have ended up dominating, #1 druid of arctic 10 years running. Most pks by a druid 10 years running, most being pked while playing a druid 10 years running. Most damage by a druid 10 years running. 1st to get stoneskin 10 years running (thanks david), I single handedly got nate to quit arctic(you all are very welcome), and I love zoning, well following others around and collecting my druid eq/spells/ranks/xp

Anyways I think all of your ideas are horrible. Any idea that requires immortals intervention is stupid and not very well thought out. Please think of a way that doesn't require immortals to do anything besides fix bugs and add game content. If you're idea requires immortals to delete or abyss anyone it's a bad idea..

Also on and off pk will never work. Example: Myth mass dies to a mob, Evil Rise goes in and loots all eq. Myth trys to war Rise to get eq back. Evil Rise says no........... there are so many bad things about an on and off pk system, its like trusting Bernie Madoff with your retirement. Its such a bad idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Nostramazos on July 18, 2017, 04:15:40 AM
Nostramazos: Casual player for some decades, Maza Nostra clan and Beast clan, Bearer of the Red Button and ruling Adepali in basketball

@Terk. I know that the thread has been high-jacked but there are some good ideas here.

@Chisul. Some very good idea on the clan pk. I think you kind of inspired me to suggest that if hard core players who know Arctic's gear can decide on a list of gear that are perceived as important, then Immortals could trace those gear and make sure they delete any chars that deep renting them. That obviously would need some guidelines and Immortals would need to enforce these; for everyone.

@Bryton. The fact that you just bragged about single-handedly leading a player to quit is an illustration of RISE's ugly face. I wonder how you did that and what leads you to brag about it. Your posting abilities are basic at best and you complain a lot. So, it wasn't your writing skills that leads you to you claim of Nate quitting. That leaves us with excessive pkilling/bullying (which is what RISE has been accused of in the past) and/or abusive language.

I am not going to pretend that Nate was an angel. I was not privy to the extremely abusive dialogues that you guys hurled at each other. If even half of what I heard was true then it is definitely something you should not be bragging about.

@RISE. Just remember what has brought you at a point where it is hard to shed the past off you. Look above (no, not there, I meant the text..sheesh).

Nostramazos
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Bryton on July 18, 2017, 08:02:02 AM
Nostramazos: Casual player for some decades, Maza Nostra clan and Beast clan, Bearer of the Red Button and ruling Adepali in basketball

@Terk. I know that the thread has been high-jacked but there are some good ideas here.

@Chisul. Some very good idea on the clan pk. I think you kind of inspired me to suggest that if hard core players who know Arctic's gear can decide on a list of gear that are perceived as important, then Immortals could trace those gear and make sure they delete any chars that deep renting them. That obviously would need some guidelines and Immortals would need to enforce these; for everyone.

@Bryton. The fact that you just bragged about single-handedly leading a player to quit is an illustration of RISE's ugly face. I wonder how you did that and what leads you to brag about it. Your posting abilities are basic at best and you complain a lot. So, it wasn't your writing skills that leads you to you claim of Nate quitting. That leaves us with excessive pkilling/bullying (which is what RISE has been accused of in the past) and/or abusive language.

I am not going to pretend that Nate was an angel. I was not privy to the extremely abusive dialogues that you guys hurled at each other. If even half of what I heard was true then it is definitely something you should not be bragging about.

@RISE. Just remember what has brought you at a point where it is hard to shed the past off you. Look above (no, not there, I meant the text..sheesh).

Nostramazos

@Nostramazos My headline was more of a joke, I don't think I've played much in the last 10
Years... also Nate attacked me at brass dragon and died then quit. So...... take everything you said back nostrqmazos!!
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Nostramazos on July 19, 2017, 06:10:03 AM
Dammit! I think I hit a vein.

I take everything back. See if the world is a better place now. It is not.

Nostramazos
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Soma on July 23, 2017, 06:05:15 PM
Casual unknown player since 95ish.

I love the PvE side of Arctic and have always tried to avoid the PvP side.  I've had only a handful of level 30 characters, mostly because it gets more challenging to group at the higher levels without someone getting paranoid you are the enemy.  "Who are you?"  I'm just a nice guy that wants to battle some text dragons.

I introduced two non-mudding friends to Arctic earlier this year and they loved it, but neither fact that it was unrestricted PvP.  I let them know about these changes and we agreed to play together again soon.

I'm very excited to see the staff considering some changes to curb PvP.  I would love to see PvP as completely optional or turned off.  I'm sure there will be challenges associated with these changes, but I hope we give it a shot and do our best to work through those challenges.
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Neyman on July 24, 2017, 01:11:55 AM
Representation: Came to this game super late and played for a couple years recently, but stopped.

Hello! Randomly looked up arctic out of nostalgia and decided to post after I saw all the drama and a Terk thread.

I loved that arctic has PvP. Not that I ever really did any PvP and when it happened I pretty much was horrible at it. But I liked that at any moment, someone could appear, and pk me. It made the game so much more tense, exciting, and unpredictable. Plus there would be all this player drama, alliances, spying, etc. Then again, I am probably not the typical player ... I most liked reading descriptions, figuring out zones, trying to figure out the minimum number of people necessary to do a fight/zone/puzzle, and generally chatting with people. Plus I never actually had good enough equipment to warrant getting pked.

Anyway ... not very helpful but just wanted to say hi :)

Oh almost forgot ... I played characters named Neyman, Efron, Politis, and some others. Basically if it was statistician's name it was probably me.   
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: Gramm on July 27, 2017, 07:07:11 PM
@Bryton, its a little farfetched to say the BEST druid on mud, but as someone who was an enemy of yours for years i learned to definatly respect your determination, carefree pk mentality, and skills absolutely.
ive seen druids solo bmobs, irda, and plenty of other larger harder things.... mind you those are nobash/dragonorb druids and its been a couple of wipes now since any druid has been THAT strong as far as I have personally seen, druids are seriously hurtin and need some loving

ALSO nate never quit when you pulled that masterful hit on us, i member it as if it was yesterday...

The pk flags were just put in, so you got flagged on purpose with an imm gas item, went and hid at the gas spec room with flags, we saw the bait and got 2x tether mages with me on locki and someone else on their tank, 3 of us died, but nobody quit.
It was brilliant play on your part and i commend you but nate never quit playing because of rise i dont think.

also dont blame rise for what bryton does!!!! they have said numerous times they claim no responsibility for his crazy pk tactic actions!!
Title: Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
Post by: xellos on August 18, 2017, 06:02:09 PM
declaring war is kinda stupid, a lot of wars jump off because of split second decisions. example, lets go repop our limit 1 item, oh there is a group there, they are the only real competition for the elite gear in the game, shields on.