Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: corey on March 09, 2013, 10:39:21 PM

Title: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: corey on March 09, 2013, 10:39:21 PM
I'm already done for the wipe. I was looking forward to a weekend of racing / seeing old friends and going after those fun items of old.

Day 1 I played with some old friends and it was slow as all hell. A lot of "let's run over here and load this item for no reason when we need levels" and such. That's fine, I can get ahead on my own time.

Well, it turns out no, no I can't. Playing solo is pretty much impossible now. Between mobs almost suredly going to kill you on a bash and them regenerating 80% of their hp every tick, soloing is not really an option. I ran around with some fine silver dragons and got to 20 in about 5 hours, but then the slippery slope got steeper and it became extremely hard to get ahead again. My charmie tanks were seemingly going to half health from mob bashes. If the bash and regeneration on mobs wasn't bad enough, the exp table change just added salt to the wound. The hours that I foresaw getting the experience to 1x alone in the current state of the game just made me think it wasn't even worth the time. I came to enjoy the game for what it's been the last few years, not play the game of old.

The game took a big hit in the wrong direction this week and I'm likely not the only one that's taken off or is going to take off because of it.

Quote
29H 102V 2500X 0C Exits:NEW>
sc
You are Loopy the Male Gnome, a level 1 Magic User.
You are 17 years old. It's your birthday today.
You have 29(29) hit and 102(102) movement points.
You are influenced by the white moon, Solinari.
You have scored 0 exp, and have 0(0) steel coins.
You need 2500 more experience to advance.
You have never died.
You have been connected for 2 minute(s).
You have been playing for 0 day(s), 0 hour(s) and 2 minute(s).
Your equipment is currently not being concealed.
You barely feel the weight of your items.
You are standing.

29H 102V 2500X 0C Exits:NEW>
n
Temple Road
    The road has the feel and smells of death row, yet leads towards big
buildings to the north. There are no signs of life here, a few symbols of
death and scratches guarding against spirits adorn the doors of many small
houses. They are all shuttered up and silent. The executioners block is to
the south.
A feral cat parades her territory and sniffs your leg.

29H 101V 2500X 0C Exits:NS> n

Temple Road
    To the north lies the evil temple of Hiddukel, a black foreboding
building. You feel the holiness and all good drain from you, along with
your blood at the noises that come from inside. The buildings on either
side of you seem to close in, a feeling of claustrophobia fills your head
and makes you spin. You run towards the temple.
A muscular watchman quietly patrols the streets of Port Balifor.
A feral cat parades her territory and sniffs your leg.

29H 100V 2500X 0C Exits:NS> n
A feral cat rubs up against your leg.
Outside the Evil Temple
    Here, off in one corner of the street, you stand before the facade of a
very evil looking temple. The walls are made from some kind of a black
stone, carved and inlaid with red in such a way as to suggest flowing
blood. Even the guards of Balifor give a wide berth to the temple, having
little interest in dealing with the wrath of the priests of Hiddukel. The
great basalt door to the north is decorated extensively with skulls, and
the knocker seems to be made of bone.
A grim temple guard stands here, carefully scanning the area for intruders.
A grim temple guard stands here, carefully scanning the area for intruders.
You are sent sprawling as a temple guard crashes into you.
That Really did HURT!
You wish your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!
A temple guard tries to sweep your legs, but you avoid the attack.

4H 99V 2500X 0C [Loopy:Awful] [a temple guard:Perfect] Exits:(N)S>
fle
fle

A temple guard misses you with his slash.
A temple guard slashes YOU.
You're stunned, but will likely regain consciousness again.

-2H 99V 2500X 0C Exits:(N)S>

Someone kicks you in the face, breaking teeth and bone. Blood flies as your head is rocked back.
You are incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.

-4H 99V 2500X 0C Exits:(N)S>
Someone slashes YOU hard.
You're dead.

0) Leave Arctic.
1) Enter the game.
2) Change your description.
3) Change your password.
4) Delete this character.

Make a choice:

Please select a number from the given list.
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: btown on March 09, 2013, 11:09:33 PM
awww u poor thing, i like it. less trash chars. more main characters. its alot better. waaaa
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Jorquin on March 10, 2013, 12:25:30 AM
i could say a lot of things, but after a little thought i'll choose to say only one thing.

after the long thread about botting/multi-ing in which the majority of people voted yes due to a lack of playerbase and the woes of soloing - who had the bright idea to quadruple the time it takes to xp, further punishing casuals and soloers?
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Kir on March 10, 2013, 05:02:58 AM
Corey and Daniel are 100% accurate. I played a thief, and mob bashes were doing 2x my backstab damage, and they regen from fair to perfect on tic. No worries though, i have a group. I have slept 4 hours since game opened, i just hit lvl 26, i've done pretty much xp zones throughout and I have never died. I have 32 hours of playtime atm, with 3 of that training skills. I am also lawful good. This grind is bapting incredible. My neutral associates are three levels lower than myself and wishing they had not even played. I can honestly say nobody i know is going to roll a second character because this grind is ludicrus. If you want to make level 30 be the endgame again like the old days, I can understand, but please at least change back saving throws and skills the way they used to be. A few wipes ago some immortal gimped skill maxes and ultra gimped saving throws which makes it super unfun to zone. 95% of the content of this game is the endgame zoning and nobody will stick around with this grind to get there except for the hardcore players like myself and clan. I can't imagine a new player enjoying this. You have to kill the same shit mobs endlessly for 30 hours just to get to a place where you can almost do mediocre zones (ft, sanction) with a 10man. At least if you want new players to succeed allow people with the newbie flag to get like 4x the xp or something... my god did anybody even test this or was this just a blind change?
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Bryton on March 10, 2013, 05:03:20 AM
I'm glad someone finally said something. I'm happy with the changes for the most part.

I don't think you guys did a good job with bashers gaining regaining hps after each tic (its way to much) maybe it will balance out once you have a group of legendarys but i cant even imagine trying mobs like amity.

The xp tables are awful, I understand making the game harder but i think you went the wrong direction on this. Usually I'm level 29-30 on the first day of the wipe which is nice cause then we can start doing some fun zones and popping good eq. This wipe i got to level 22 the first day and rank 13. Today I didn't play as much and got to level 25 and I'm almost rank 16. I don't see myself getting to level 30 anytime soon since i work and go to school during the week, which is sad cause thats when all the fun starts.

so basically what im trying to say is that this game isnt a game where people have tons and tons of time to grind out a billion xp like they use to when they where in high school (well i guess a few people still do) but most of us have jobs, school, or a family so it sucks dedicating 20 hours of playing time to just to get to level 25.

I wish the Imms would ask the playerbase about these changes before they implemented them. I'm not saying the Imms do a bad job cause Im greatful they keep this game alive but sometimes i feel like they only listen the 4 or 5 trolls on this game that just want to xp and zone mindlessly over and over again, even if they are only doing it by themselves. 

but hey maybe I'm just the odd one out and the player base will stay at 80 for longer then 5 days. Doubtful but maybe.

shamans and mtn scouts need to be nerfed hard. Thanks

Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Chisul on March 10, 2013, 05:51:07 AM
The way I see this is it has shifted all the things we love about the game (zoning that is difficult and player killing) to an earlier playerbase level.

There are TONS of players out there that don't consider a character playable or "worth" playing until it is level 30 and rank X. They don't even TRY to use the character to player kill because there is just too much risk without X number of +damage and superb bash, or top tier spells.

I LOVE the new changes because it is shifting the "endgame" from level 30 to ANYWHERE on the exp table. You just need to be able to enjoy the game from level 1 all the way to legendary and beyond. Arctic has never been, at least for me, about how many level 30 chars I own or how quickly I can churn one out. It has been about the challenge of a zone, and the rush of going head to head against someone that could kill me and take away all my hard earned loot.

How many times did you say last wipe "remember when this zone/fight/pk battle was hard?"

Great job immorts for having the balls to effect this kind of change. Thank you for making the game, and my characters, FUN from level 1 and beyond.

Matt
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Kir on March 10, 2013, 05:57:58 AM
^uh pretty much the opposite of what this guy says..

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention, just to play as much as I am now I had to do make up some crazy lies to get people to leave me alone and out of work. I also made the mistake of trying to play legit and not bot or multi up, but now i wish i had leveled up 4 chars at a time because really this grind is that horrible. There is a shitload of fun and awesome zones in this game that people love to do, but about 2% of them can be done sub lvl 28.

Now instead of just bitching, here's some solutions to the grind problem:
1. every align get the same xp for killing every other align. This helps all alignments.
2. Introduce rest xp, this will help casuals
3. raise skill max levels so skills actually work a bit when sub legendary with all superbs
4. Really the best solution is to change it back to the way it was before, but that might require another wipe so the first 3 may help dampen the effect of a horrid change. Please believe me, most mudders are casual and we still play mud because the grind ISNT bad

Another point, my clan rushed really hard and usually like to pk early in the wipe because its fun. However, if we decided to pk the next closest people to us atm it would be a slaughter because they  are way further behind us in the uber grind and there's no way people would continue to play if we went around pkilling other clans. My clan will be doing endgame shit soon but its because 12 of us spent the first 2 days doing nothing but mud.

I don't know if this is well understood by the immortal staff, because it appears there's nothing but yes_men, this reminds me of how Mitt Romney thought he was ahead in the 2012 campaign the entire time and was baffled and infuriated when he lost because nobody around him would be honest. This mud attracts players when the new changes make the game more fun. The more the game is made to grind\suck, the less people are willing to play. I am being honest, if we didn't have 15 people in voice chat keeping me going i'd have quit myself.

You imms do a great job, and do not deserve to be judged on solely on one shortcoming, so plz do something about the new grind problem, and fix PVE of any class vs warriorrs, especially thieves vs warriors which is baptin terrible.
Thanks for listening,
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Gnua on March 10, 2013, 10:20:44 AM
i could say a lot of things, but after a little thought i'll choose to say only one thing.

after the long thread about botting/multi-ing in which the majority of people voted yes due to a lack of playerbase and the woes of soloing - who had the bright idea to quadruple the time it takes to xp, further punishing casuals and soloers?

Maybe the thought was to make soloing so difficult boring that people would have to group and/or bot. I do shudder what would happen to a casual player after a couple of unlucky deaths. they would be maxxed on their kill buffer and have to take on the bigger stuff thus increasing the chance of death.

that being said, it is easier to find a group than it used to be. if this is the direction we want to go, it would be nice if the xp penalty for being a lower level than the rest of group were reduced. I understand the "you are wrong align" reason to split up groups, but "you are too low / too high" looks like it will become a real drag once the playerbase drops down to regular levels.

I've got mixed feelings because most wipes i'm 10-15 levels behind my clan and have to solo because i play casually and it was hard to find a group. this wipe i'm only 5 levels behind and dont have to solo even if the clan isnt on.
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Dandalf on March 10, 2013, 11:09:11 AM
I understand that you can't be level 30 over night.   You can't be clearing the major zones within 48 hours of a wipe.  I really don't see this as a bad thing.  All this exp needed is doing is allowing for skilling.  I don't think it's the best way to solve the problem but it's not the end of the world.  There was no accomplishment when hitting 30 when you could do it in 12-15 hours.  Instead of a day or two, you need a week.  It's not that bad.
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: RaVaN on March 10, 2013, 11:21:53 AM
  I have mixed feelings on this.  I agree with Chisul about enjoying the whole game and taking some risks I might not have done til 25+ and the new xp tables do this.  Rather than spamming the same zone, I have been branching out more since if you are going to just grind xp you will be bored to tears.  All in all, I don't mind the xp change.

  BUT, I do have issues:

1.  The regeneration of mob hit points is a bit ridiculous
2.  Something should be done about xp gain with mixed alignment groups
3.  All mob xp in zones need to reflect the zone difficulty.

  I don't have a problem with the xp table so much as I do those three things.   
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Hoss on March 10, 2013, 02:03:57 PM
Quote
I'm already done for the wipe.

Yet you are still logged on and playing. I am sorry, but I do not listen to a single post that starts off with "ima gonna quit"
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: corey on March 10, 2013, 02:04:58 PM
Quote
I'm already done for the wipe.

Yet you are still logged on and playing. I am sorry, but I do not listen to a single post that starts off with "ima gonna quit"

I literally was coming back to the forum right now to say last night was an overreaction, but changes still need to be made. I'm still playing, but I'm unimpressed.
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Xyril on March 10, 2013, 02:16:17 PM
I think a lot of previous changes meant to make the game newbie-friendly have done precisely the opposite. Less time "grinding" means casual and less experienced can reach higher levels per time spent on the game. Less exp required means that exp maxing is much less of a problem. Less experienced players can solo their way to 1x because they only need to know about a dozen zones. People take more risks because death is a % of a level, and faster levels means that the time cost of death is much smaller.

However, when you look at second order effects, these changes may have been more harmful than anything. Because so little time and knowledge is required to be level 30, most experienced players will be at 30 for most of the wipe. Because leaders realize this, few will group lower levels when they can help it, meaning that for most people, the multi-player game really doesn't begin until level 30.

Creators also see that people don't spend much time in low-mid zones, so they focus efforts on high end and end game content. Also, the definition of high end has changed somewhat. When level 30 was hard or time consuming to achieve, Storm's Keep was a hard zone. Now that legend is the norm, Storm's is a 2-4 man zone, and a lot of time is spent making new zones or tweaking old ones to keep things challenging for groups of 5-10 level 30s that include multiple legendaries. Unfortunately, part of making zones challenging seems to involve extensive use of caster mobs with spells like prism and pws that make bringing anyone with sub-level 30 hps and saves a huge liability.

Overall, I think it's worth seeing what happens with the return to pre-George Bush exp tables. A few things should be fixed, however.

1) reduce death penalty (especially at lower levels) - One good thing about faster levels was that death was less costly in terms of time, which encourages exploration and risk-taking. Moreover, the absence of experienced friends and groupmates showing the ropes means that less experienced players will actually have to learn more low-mid zones in order to level thanks to mob exp maxing becoming an issue once again.

2) fix warrior issues - Warrior seems like the default template for humanoids. Thanks to most mobs being hasted anyway, this often meant death for the unwary solo player exploring a new zone, even before superbash. Vigor being overpowered means that a major source of exp also takes longer to kill.

3) cheaper ranks - Most people now have a bunch of unspent rank points by level 10, but don't have the cash to use on it. Putting in a set of newbie ranks, with low cash cost but higher RP costs would give people something to do with those points and give casual players another toy to play with at lower levels. The higher RP costs would mean that the purpose of the high cash costs--to discourage people swapping out ranks for every new situation--would largely be preserved. Even with, for example a 1000 coin 3 RP +stat rank to play with early on, everyone will eventually want to save up for the 300 coin 2 rp version.
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Jarrad on March 10, 2013, 07:12:05 PM
I think these changes just need more creativity from players instead of endless whining. Ray of enfeeblement and especially color spray will now be viable for the first and elite for the 2nd, against mob regen.

I feel like the game is actually forcing more chars to group together. I'm not sure if this will be each person now controls 3 bots instead of 2, but it would be nice to see more people grouping together again.

I like the new bash damage, but not sure how hard a superb basher with a 50 weight shield is going to floor me for, when level 1 mobs are bashing for 25.

The new leveling table actually makes level 25 chars have useful skills already and combined with buying ranks as you level I think there is more playability in the game for non 30 chars...

What would be nice to see is an informal policy from whatever bigger clans are forming of hunting clan tagged chars only. Might make for a fun wipe!
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: giles on March 11, 2013, 05:32:43 AM
I like the changes.  I think long term, the game will benefit if grouping is more common and nearly required prior to 30.

I do feel like bash damage could be toned down just a tiny bit, and this seems a *little* bit absurd:

46H 68V 2365X 2C [Me:Fair] [a little boy:V.Bad] Exits:(N)ESW>
You barely slash a little boy.
A little boy is stunned, but will likely regain consciousness again.
A little boy tries to sweep your legs, but you avoid the attack.
58H 90V 2352X 2C [Me:Good] [a little boy:Perfect] Exits:(N)ESW>

100% hp regen per tick in combat seems a bit much.
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Vespin on March 11, 2013, 06:24:40 AM
Personally speaking, the only thing about the changes I hate so far is vigor.  As others have stated, the majority of the mobs out there are default_warrior.  soloing in the low-mid range is damn near impossible against many of these mobs (often times a pair or more will guard the entrance to a zone) and you end up getting bashed to hell and instead of spending a couple tics regenning and finishing them off and get IN to the actual zone, you're stuck with aggro mobs that are at perfect before you can even blink, much less mount a second attempt.  (god help the poor bastard mages who were unfortunate enough to get warrior_mobs in their tests!)  I would suggest making vigor a player_only skill, or painstakingly going through the warrior mobs in the game and being very, VERY particular about which of the mobs you choose to allow this feature.  Amity/warrior statue? ok.  tero? ok.  guards at the temple of hiddukel? maybe not so much.

I have little sympathy for the "it takes too long, xping is hard" comments as we're not even 4 days into the wipe, and there are literally dozens of players at level 25-30 including myself with less than 30 hours playtime, most with at least a death or two under their belts.  Yeah, you can't steamroll things overnight.  I'm ok with that, and quite honestly, i've managed a healthy amount of zoning in groups, solo, as well as skilling without being uber focused on grinding away at the xp tables.  the vast majority of my time has been spent hunting down shinies and finding homes for them.

As for ranks being too expensive?  no.  ranks are game changers, plain and simple, and i greatly appreciate the inflated cost.  I used to laugh out loud at the number of "legendary" characters out there asking for directions between major towns.  You'd think a renowned player would know how to read a map.  These changes, while extending the game, and elongating the commitment to being the top dog are not insufferable, nor are they too hard.

This of course is coming from a player with extensive game knowledge and roughly 18 years experience playing this game.  However, the vast majority of the posts i've read are by players who have been here many, many years.  I do not, nor have I ever multied or botted, using game changes as an excused to tout this as a valid response and the only way to get ahead is idiotic.

You can't win the olympics if you aren't a dedicated competitor, and you can't rule the mud if you can't compete with the hardcore players' schedules.  You can, however still manage a very healthy gaming experience and enjoy the end-game content.  You just won't be first.  This mud has never been geared toward the casual gamer, and if you're looking for massive rewards with minimal effort, you should wait for mahasamarahu or flint to come back and do trivia.

full disclosure: i have the benefit of being a member of one of the oldest and most experienced active clans on the mud.  However I am by nature a very solo_oriented player.

Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Gnua on March 11, 2013, 09:22:21 AM
Feedback on the changes in order of perceived effect on game:

1. Vigor. This seems messed up at low and mid level, I suggest vigor should only work if not in combat or at least be level based.
2. Bash. the damage at low level seems to place overly high risk on a low level character. I suggest the damage be level based. Mage quests might need to be revisited if vigor/bash remain at current levels. Until now, no mob under level 20 has been able to kill players who had the good sense to flee when the going got rough. having warrior mobs be the only mob to present this kind of risk seems out of line with the rest of the game.
3. New XP tables. Seems like it's easier to find a group with some who has a lot more or a lot less playtime than me.
4. Stats. Maybe I've just been lucky but getting a playable character seems pretty quick. Two questions about changes this wipe: do the races still have stat penalties? Does a certain race still have an innate CL advantage (apart from int) over the others? The changelist doesnt give any hint of those changing. I generally assume that things haven't changed unless otherwise stated but if they havent that would seem a little weird.
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: giles on March 11, 2013, 10:32:02 AM
Eh, one other thought that became apparent to me.

Rolling for stats is more important than ever.  It was one thing to spend 3-4 hours rolling stats for a character that will take 24~ hours to level up to 30.  Now that it takes significantly longer to level up, the time invested in rolling pays off even quicker, making it crucially important to roll for those last 1-2 stat points. 

I just can't push myself to play a warrior with 1 dex below max and 1 con below max because I know the 2-3 hours it would take me to roll a perfect one is minuscule compared to the time required to reach 1x.  So rolling becomes a "play the game tax".
Title: Re: New wipe in a nutshell
Post by: Zozen on March 13, 2013, 07:10:41 PM
XP Tables: It takes approximately 15-17 hours more playtime to get to L30 then it did last wipe

Vigor: It changes the game but no fight has yet been impossible because of it...it requires more thought and player knowledge to accomplish a goal. Maybe it effected solo too much but that is still yet to be seen.

Scouts: hit points need a boost, from what I've seen from other people they are ranging between 450-470, sure legendary makes them crazy damage but that is an issue with legendary bonuses needing adjustment, not with the base class

Gear sets: keep them coming but can we avoid posting the exact sets please?

Other than that I haven't been disappointed with what I've seen so far this wipe. I like the idea that it takes longer to get to L30, but the reality is L30 1x is meaningless with how ranks are set up right now...so I don't see why people are complaining about how long it takes to get there. By the time you are L30 1x you can (will?) be rank 20+.

Thanks.