Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rinad on September 12, 2016, 11:46:30 PM

Title: Skills and Training
Post by: Rinad on September 12, 2016, 11:46:30 PM
What are peoples thoughts?   As I sit here in my 3rd day of mindless skilling from vgood to superb (note almost 72 hours for 16-18 hours a day), I ask this, is there a better way? 

I'm sure i'm not the only one and it's not one class that's slow.   I've asked my clan and got feedback from them.  Now let's see what others feel.   Maybe a change is in store.  If it requires coding I'm sure we could help write or modify the code and have it implemented. 

What I know : It's based of of levels and wisdom/int/learns.  I have a decent share of said items/ranks and other effects on a tank this wipe.   I'm level 30 less than 30M to 1x.  I'm rank 20+  It should be easy enough for me to accomplish these skills.    I've been legend every wipe since it was implemented and have been here since the beginning, so I know the how part.   

My complaint: The mindless repetitiveness of some skills, each class has their respective problem children. It shouldn't take people as long as it currently does.   

Suggested Solution: I think adding a modifier at excellent or v.good would be great. For example, if I'm skilling at level 30 and its going from excellent to superb once i Reach a certain number of successes the skill has a higher chance of training each time going up faster with the modifier being very low at first and then allowing it to go up as I continue to show I can sharpen my damn sword.   Maybe the modifier be could be better with wis/int/learn or something of that nature.

I'd love to hear positive feedback, no flames please this is a serious issue a lot of people have complained about this to me over the last several days.   I hope the upper powers listen and we can come to a fun solution.  I've seen a lot of old faces come back and know the changes thus far have been well received.   Thanks Staff!



Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Zozen on September 13, 2016, 01:17:54 AM
I would suggest a look at what is the "minimum" amount of playtime required to superb/legend a char and go from there. Set some kind of standard across the different class types and lump them into small groups (also recognizing that the power spike on some legends are a lot higher than for other classes and the time required to get to that point should be reflective of that power spike):

Thief / Scout
Warrior/barbarian
Dark Knight / Paladin
Druid/Shaman/Cleric
Mage

There are some classes that you can legend really really fast and others that require such a looong amount of playtime just due to skills that are on timers and are a PITA to train.

If you compare a few of those: Dark Knight vs Paladin as an example...how long does it take to legend one vs the other? Kind of a joke on one..

I would like an evaluation of why some skills are even on classes and if they are making the class more effective.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Keila on September 13, 2016, 03:57:32 AM
We are having active discussions on how to revamp skill training. I don't have any specifics to share at this point but we definitely hear you.

Some of the problem with the current system is that it uses the same system for things that happen every couple rounds (like say bash) and things that you can only do once every 4-5 tics (mend, or camp?) so it is difficult to balance the numbers.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Gnua on September 13, 2016, 04:36:26 PM
We are having active discussions on how to revamp skill training. I don't have any specifics to share at this point but we definitely hear you.

Some of the problem with the current system is that it uses the same system for things that happen every couple rounds (like say bash) and things that you can only do once every 4-5 tics (mend, or camp?) so it is difficult to balance the numbers.

as someone who has legended shaman, barbarian, red robe - my only complaint about slow skill training comes from them being a legend requirement.  If I understand what you say correctly, mend/arcane barrier/spellcraft train very slowly compared to track/march/target because of the frequency with which they can be practiced and so altering the 'notoriously bad' skills would introduce the undesired side effect of changing the others.  Have people considered lowering the legend requirements for the 'really hard to train' skills to say good or v.good instead of superb?  The ones I hear people complaining about most are: disarm, righteous will, camp, mend, lore, sharpen, arcane barrier, spellcraft, field medic, banish.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Rinad on September 13, 2016, 09:24:21 PM
Do you as immortals or implementors mean for it to take us 5 to 7 days of non-stop training for say recup? The cool down on this isn't that long, as long as mend or sharpen, which both finished in 3 days give or take.  It should train just bit faster IMO is all.  I have a ton of int/wis/learns as well on my char as well.  It just doesn't seem right, I started working the skill as soon as I get it.   
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Gnua on September 13, 2016, 09:52:26 PM
Do you as immortals or implementors mean for it to take us 5 to 7 days of non-stop training for say recup? The cool down on this isn't that long, as long as mend or sharpen, which both finished in 3 days give or take.  It should train just bit faster IMO is all.  I have a ton of int/wis/learns as well on my char as well.  It just doesn't seem right, I started working the skill as soon as I get it.   

last wipe i recall recup seemed to train just about as fast as mend, sharpen, bandage, and lore.  battle cry was the last to hit superb for me and even that wasnt so bad compared to skilling a shaman.  you had a legend shaman last wipe didnt you?
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Rinad on September 13, 2016, 10:12:13 PM
Cleric
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Ericj on September 13, 2016, 10:56:19 PM
Shamans and particular mage skills were the worst.  I'm excited to hear the staff is looking into this, it really shows a level of alertness to the needs of the player-base and changing demands on our aging population.

Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Gramm on September 13, 2016, 11:00:47 PM
Just make it half as many learns once you hit average or something. Problem likely solved.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: kanu on September 13, 2016, 11:42:50 PM
My complaint is a legend requirement for skills I can only train while in a group. As a player who has predominantly soloed for ages this means finding a group and hanging out with them for literally a couple of day until I master the two skills I need for legend. I'd rather solo.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Gnua on September 14, 2016, 12:27:39 AM
My complaint is a legend requirement for skills I can only train while in a group. As a player who has predominantly soloed for ages this means finding a group and hanging out with them for literally a couple of day until I master the two skills I need for legend. I'd rather solo.

I recall you played mostly mages and warriors but even rescue can be trained solo with a charmie.  are you thinking of other classes?

Of all the classes I've legended (mage, barb, shaman) the worst skill by far is banish and not because of the time. It is worse than the 'solo' skills because you cannot really solo it.  It is worse than the 'group' skills because the 'engage' chance means that practicing while travelling or memming means that it disrupts group flow more so than all other group skills - so much so that you need a friend to give up their zoning time for your skill.  Group skills like Rescue, Battle Cry, Inspire, Rally and even Taunt can all be practiced while only 'somewhat' impeding the zoning process. Banish just shuts it down completely because you have a chance of attacking a groupmates charmie.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Gnua on September 14, 2016, 12:29:30 AM
Just make it half as many learns once you hit average or something. Problem likely solved.

that sounds very similar to lowering the legend requirement to good/vgood.  But I only think this needs to happen for some skills, not all.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: kanu on September 14, 2016, 01:52:05 AM
My complaint is a legend requirement for skills I can only train while in a group. As a player who has predominantly soloed for ages this means finding a group and hanging out with them for literally a couple of day until I master the two skills I need for legend. I'd rather solo.

I recall you played mostly mages and warriors but even rescue can be trained solo with a charmie.  are you thinking of other classes?

The Dark Knight inspire skill, as far as I can tell, requires you and your target to be in combat and grouped. It stops going up at poor when you only practice with your dragon. March also requires a group but with a druid you can get it up very quickly so it's trivial.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Rinad on September 14, 2016, 02:38:21 AM
Just reduce the total grind time from 80-100 hours for a skill  to about 25% less.  60-75 hours is fair.  Recuperate - avg to superb took over 80 hours to complete. 
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Gnua on September 14, 2016, 04:42:40 AM
The Dark Knight inspire skill, as far as I can tell, requires you and your target to be in combat and grouped. It stops going up at poor when you only practice with your dragon. March also requires a group but with a druid you can get it up very quickly so it's trivial.

ever tried a charmie that wasnt the dragon?
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Rednax on September 14, 2016, 07:13:03 AM
As a warrior this wipe I can say that parry seemed to take far longer to skill up / hit one enlighten than others. Took more than a few hours per day across several days. Disarm and bash also seemed to take quite a long time, but parry definitely took the longest.

I was able to skill up everything solo, however.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Gnua on September 14, 2016, 06:29:50 PM
Just reduce the total grind time from 80-100 hours for a skill  to about 25% less.  60-75 hours is fair.  Recuperate - avg to superb took over 80 hours to complete.

I wonder if something has changed because I'm pretty sure that I could keep recuperate on par with bandage simply by recuperating every time I bandaged.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: kanu on September 15, 2016, 03:28:45 AM
The Dark Knight inspire skill, as far as I can tell, requires you and your target to be in combat and grouped. It stops going up at poor when you only practice with your dragon. March also requires a group but with a druid you can get it up very quickly so it's trivial.

ever tried a charmie that wasnt the dragon?

No, but that's definitely worth testing.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: btown on September 15, 2016, 12:15:02 PM
I would say parry is to hard to skill, 2 days in a row i got off work and skilled til i went to bed and it has moved from excellent to a higher level of excellent.  this is with 6 hours of training.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Thymorical on September 15, 2016, 01:42:37 PM
Maybe because im a new paladin player but divine focus working on 3rd day training it from excellent to ...
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Shimopy on September 15, 2016, 04:47:38 PM
My complaint is a legend requirement for skills I can only train while in a group. As a player who has predominantly soloed for ages this means finding a group and hanging out with them for literally a couple of day until I master the two skills I need for legend. I'd rather solo.

I recall you played mostly mages and warriors but even rescue can be trained solo with a charmie.  are you thinking of other classes?

Of all the classes I've legended (mage, barb, shaman) the worst skill by far is banish and not because of the time. It is worse than the 'solo' skills because you cannot really solo it.  It is worse than the 'group' skills because the 'engage' chance means that practicing while travelling or memming means that it disrupts group flow more so than all other group skills - so much so that you need a friend to give up their zoning time for your skill.  Group skills like Rescue, Battle Cry, Inspire, Rally and even Taunt can all be practiced while only 'somewhat' impeding the zoning process. Banish just shuts it down completely because you have a chance of attacking a groupmates charmie.

Agree that banish is the worst. The only way I've been able to do it is to find a druid who is willing to spend 4+ hours sitting in a room and conjuring things for me to banish. As a neutral, it's hard enough getting the required spells for a legendary shaman, but at least I have fun running hard zones and looking for those spells. Training banish is the opposite of fun.

Arctic is "different" than most games out there, and skill training/grinding has always been a rite of passage for anyone who plays it. However, it is a GAME after all, and if there is literally no fun scenario in which you can train a skill, then maybe something needs to be re-worked with that particular skill.
Title: Re: Skills and Training
Post by: Gnua on September 15, 2016, 05:36:45 PM
Agree that banish is the worst. The only way I've been able to do it is to find a druid who is willing to spend 4+ hours sitting in a room and conjuring things for me to banish.

i think a level 15+ paladin also works in similar fashion. If you have trouble finding a druid/paladin send me a message and i'll roll one just for you for a price.