Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gnua on December 29, 2015, 12:04:02 PM

Title: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on December 29, 2015, 12:04:02 PM
I've noticed that some of the top healers aren't even making a cleric let alone doing the heal quest
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Oligo on January 01, 2016, 02:45:12 PM
I'd be curious what your definition of "top healer" is or who you consider to be a good healer. It's possible you've never played with a top healer before and I'm not talking about gear.

Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: RichE on January 01, 2016, 05:09:25 PM
I'm not sure why I didnt play a cleric.  I'll assume your post is referring to me.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 04, 2016, 09:35:26 AM
I'd be curious what your definition of "top healer" is or who you consider to be a good healer. It's possible you've never played with a top healer before and I'm not talking about gear.

shesh, lottie, richE, eric, tino come to mind as top but there must be at least a dozen (klint, bob, john, mavlad) almost as good that dont play healers. i can just tell from the conversations that the more experienced healers in the clans seem to be more than happy to let people less experienced do the job. i would guess that for the past 3-4 wipes outsiders probably havent even heard of the people healing for 500+ CRP clans even though outsiders probably know by name at least 3 of the people in each of said clans.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 04, 2016, 09:47:30 AM
I'm not sure why I didnt play a cleric.  I'll assume your post is referring to me.

lol, i didnt know you werent playing a healer. i assumed you were. but it looks like you are now the poster child for this thread.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Zozen on January 04, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
So top healers are scripted healers?
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Keila on January 04, 2016, 03:17:36 PM
I made a healer this wipe!
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: gulca on January 04, 2016, 10:55:27 PM
So top healers are scripted healers?

I remember healing a 10 man group each round on different members each time and ran outa heals. I doubt i can do it with out script assistance of some kind, especially with char names longer than 4.

I dont claim to be a top healer but i definitely aint one without my heal macros and hp sorter script.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Zozen on January 05, 2016, 08:50:14 AM
I guess I'm unclear on what the definition of top healer is? Is it someone that shows up every day and heals for 5-8 hours straight every wipe using only aliases?  Is it someone that can lead every zone in the game and heal every fight but be shit at pk because they don't script and let their adrenaline control them? Is it just a bot that group checks every round and has priority heals?
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Oligo on January 05, 2016, 08:57:36 AM
shesh, lottie, richE, eric, tino come to mind as top but there must be at least a dozen (klint, bob, john, mavlad) almost as good that dont play healers.

There are def some elite ones in your list. Especially tino and shesh. Neither of whom are active to my limited knowledge.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: snax on January 05, 2016, 09:14:16 AM
I think a top healer is one who generally doesn't miss heals or heal the wrong target, doesn't ask for any spell runs, is content to be a 3rd world player, and gives over the top platitudes when given anything better than a gust of wind book.  They give an extra 12 hour logged on without complaints and without being asked just cause they want to see other people feed their greed.  That is the true top healer.  I am definately a benthic mudsucker leech of this type of healer.  They need my meds more than I do.

Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Raushei on January 05, 2016, 11:05:52 AM
I rolled a cleric. Considering I'm easily one of the best healers to play the game, I wouldn't dare let some second-tier healer take over my duties. :)

On that note, I do see a lot of new folks that are healing these days.

TBH - my desire to play a healer has been affected. Shamans are pretty OP healing, and oftentimes the groups rarely need me. (Outside of entry heal or burst damage). This leads to extreme boredom, which lead to me rolling a seond and third character (way earlier than I would have normally, before legend).
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 05, 2016, 11:08:50 AM
shesh, lottie, richE, eric, tino come to mind as top but there must be at least a dozen (klint, bob, john, mavlad) almost as good that dont play healers.

There are def some elite ones in your list. Especially tino and shesh. Neither of whom are active to my limited knowledge.

i've played with the top tier healers enough to recognize if someone else is 1st, 2nd, or 3rd tier. a few wipes ago, the top healers were playing other classes and letting the 2nd tier healers do the job. now it seems like the second tier is also not rolling clerics and letting the role fall to 3rd tier healers.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 05, 2016, 11:18:49 AM
I rolled a cleric. Considering I'm easily one of the best healers to play the game, I wouldn't dare let some second-tier healer take over my duties. :)

On that note, I do see a lot of new folks that are healing these days.

TBH - my desire to play a healer has been affected. Shamans are pretty OP healing, and oftentimes the groups rarely need me. (Outside of entry heal or burst damage). This leads to extreme boredom, which lead to me rolling a seond and third character (way earlier than I would have normally, before legend).

I think you are on to something with your idea of the shamans pushing healers to play other classes.  I have also found the shamans make playing a healer quite boring.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Zozen on January 05, 2016, 11:33:24 AM
If your healer isn't healing you need to do harder zones.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Kadaj on January 07, 2016, 11:21:25 AM
I feel like the healers have it pretty darn easy, at least you can legendary fairly easily. Try being a black robed mage and sitting there, mindlessly training 12 skills. Ok, you got all those skills trained after countless hours. Sweeeeet, got rank 20. Killed Kinin. Oh wait, you have every spell except devastation. It can't be THAT hard to get, right? 29 books later....soon to be 30 books later as I'm writing this, waiting for my group to get here and I will still be devastationless.  It's not even that I'm rushing to get legend so I can get all these sweet ranks. I'm waiting to legend so I can roll a new character. There's not even a point to rolling a new character unless it's an exotic race, which I can't do until I get this spell. You silly clerics have it easy!  #devastated
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Jorake on January 07, 2016, 12:17:08 PM
IDK about that! I remember doing glymmer/amity 20+x a piece trying to get holy word a few wipes ago.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 07, 2016, 01:13:27 PM
IDK about that! I remember doing glymmer/amity 20+x a piece trying to get holy word a few wipes ago.

and then you never played it. it's like no one wants/needs to play healers seriously anymore.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Jorake on January 07, 2016, 01:42:18 PM
They dont really. Only a handful of fights even require actual heals.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: RichE on January 07, 2016, 07:22:48 PM
Yeah, i'm still not legendary on white robe.. regretting my decision not to play a healer.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gramm on January 08, 2016, 03:27:05 PM
Rich you should just always make a healer.  :p
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Valenore on January 09, 2016, 07:28:45 AM
The problem with healers:

1.  Most of their spells are not useful: i.e. gate only has one very situation use I know of, sunray is useless zoning, holy word is mostly useless, strength of one isn't really useful (should make the regular spell what the legendary used to be), restoration

2.  Even the "useful" spells aren't fun.  Steelskin is self-cast only so it is mostly useless especially in groups, heroism is not exciting, cloak of bravery?,

3.  Because of shamans, autosteelskin tanks, and barbarian dances you aren't needed for a lot of zones and most of the zones you are needed for is only a few fights. 

4.  Unless you are a clan leader, spelling you generally isn't a priority because outside of heal and summoning circle your legendary required spells (or others) aren't useful to the group.  So as you said, when the clan leaders aren't playing the healers then they get relegated to a back burner.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Alecto on January 10, 2016, 04:25:55 PM
A legend cleric with three solid animates is probably the most exciting thing to see in this game.  If you don't enjoy playing a healer once legendary then you aren't doing it right.  Nothing else in the game can sex-tuple-oblit AND heal the whole group.

Now, I will agree, playing a healer pre-legend sucks donkey butt...
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 11, 2016, 11:54:35 AM
The problem with healers:

1.  Most of their spells are not useful: i.e. gate only has one very situation use I know of, sunray is useless zoning, holy word is mostly useless, strength of one isn't really useful (should make the regular spell what the legendary used to be), restoration

2.  Even the "useful" spells aren't fun.  Steelskin is self-cast only so it is mostly useless especially in groups, heroism is not exciting, cloak of bravery?,

3.  Because of shamans, autosteelskin tanks, and barbarian dances you aren't needed for a lot of zones and most of the zones you are needed for is only a few fights. 

4.  Unless you are a clan leader, spelling you generally isn't a priority because outside of heal and summoning circle your legendary required spells (or others) aren't useful to the group.  So as you said, when the clan leaders aren't playing the healers then they get relegated to a back burner.

While I agree with most of what you said, all your points other than #3 were equally true 10-15 years ago when elite people were playing healers. I'm wondering if the mechanics have somehow changed (shamans? steelskin rank?) so that the incremental benefit of a dedicated healer over a trash healer does not justify the effort.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: eddiex on January 11, 2016, 12:14:51 PM
What is even the point of this thread? People who are not "top healers", will never become "top healers" if they cannot practice. The only way to develop into a "top healer" is to solo heal the most difficult portions of the game successfully. Either that or write an elite script. Scripted healers are boring, as are fully scripted characters in general. There is no entertainment value to sitting there and watching your character heal like a champ day in and day out.

Are you trying to "psychologize" the reason they aren't played more? Bring attention to how much they need a revamp?

News flash: Clerics are still one of the most valuable classes in the game. Shamans were developed as an alternate healing class. This allows for greater group diversity, which IMO has been more pronounced because of the necessity to optimize classes in 8 man groups.  This top flight healer conversation is absurd and I'm sure quite insulting to many talented healers who aren't fully automated.  Why don't you break down a list of all the A B C and D group healers to enlighten us all of your insight...
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 11, 2016, 02:39:05 PM
People who are not "top healers", will never become "top healers" if they cannot practice.

and when they become decent, the first thing they want to do is stop playing the healer.

Quote
Are you trying to "psychologize" the reason they aren't played more? Bring attention to how much they need a revamp?

i wouldnt mind a revamp to make them more enjoyable

Quote
Clerics are still one of the most valuable classes in the game.

and yet no one wants to play them.

Quote
This top flight healer conversation is absurd and I'm sure quite insulting to many talented healers who aren't fully automated.

I have great respect for talented healers and I don't see how pointing out that they aren't playing healers insults them.  Perhaps the talented healers who are still around might give us insight as to why they aren't playing healers even though they are still playing arctic.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: btown on January 11, 2016, 03:51:38 PM
I think it boils down to a league of legend mentality.

Healers are supports and supports cant carry..

Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Zozen on January 11, 2016, 03:55:22 PM
What clans are suffering from good players not playing healers? Rise? Wild? Core? Myth? Outlaw? Los? Apoc? Etc?

I got too much going on with family and kid to devote the energy to be a good clan healer. Others stepped up. Just like every clan out there I'm sure.


I think I'm with Eddie. What's the point of this?

Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 11, 2016, 03:59:57 PM
What clans are suffering from good players not playing healers? Rise? Wild? Core? Myth? Outlaw? Los? Apoc? Etc?

I dont think anyone is suffering from a lack of good healers since a trash healer is good enough.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 11, 2016, 04:03:33 PM
I think it boils down to a league of legend mentality.

Healers are supports and supports cant carry..

But I feel like something must have changed to create this situation. It was not always like this so my question is: what has changed?
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: eddiex on January 11, 2016, 05:44:36 PM
Your reply to Zozen makes it obvious you're a moron who is completely out of touch with any real idea of what goes on in this game. It is insulting that you think no one currently playing a healer is talented or elite. People like you will never understand this game well enough to have an informed opinion on the current state of the game. I wouldn't even have bothered responding to this thread, but you have dragged it on and on with presumptions about who you feel is elite and is not playing a healer.

Let me put it simply. There currently are elite players playing stacked healers. That will never change. People who you mentioned playing elite were generally clan leaders. Do these people want to play the same class over and over, wipe after wipe? You're completely off base. Get a clue dude.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: reed23 on January 11, 2016, 10:53:35 PM
I wouldn't consider myself a great healer, but I have played a healer for about 10 consecutive wipes.  I enjoy healing because the second I log on we can zone, period.  Healers don't need much of a revamp in my opinion.  Their main role is to heal, and that's what they currently do.  Rapture, Animate, Holy Word (I'd like to see this stun the opposite 2 alignments to be more useful - i.e. evils stun neutral and goodie), sunray, are all interesting non-healing features.  Clans will go no-where fast without a good healer in their clan.  The problem is is that the majority of clans over the past 5 wipes have probably used a char-shared bot healer to get the job done so others could play the greed-mongered 10 dam double oblitting classes.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 11, 2016, 11:09:45 PM
Clans will go no-where fast without a good healer in their clan.

maybe that's what separates RISE from the other clans because the ones I've been in during the past 5 years seem to either be casual or the alt of a more dedicated player.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Oligo on January 11, 2016, 11:25:22 PM
Healers are supports and supports cant carry..

Usually yes, but there are exceptions. Lesath, Troggs, and Tinotaur carried on multiple occasions in more competitive eras when there weren't 8-man group caps.
Lesath played in an era with no group caps, and Tinotaur played in an era with 12-man group caps.

Lesath: http://normstorm.com/logs/neraka1.txt (http://normstorm.com/logs/neraka1.txt)

Tinotaur was intimidating to face. I'll have to dig up some Tinotaur logs, I always thought he was the best battle cleric of Arctic history.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Zozen on January 12, 2016, 08:41:42 AM
You're talking about an era where clerics could legitimately tank whole groups and not really break a sweat (thus not needing a script really, Troggs and Tinotaur were pure script nobash healers, great for pk.) I think at one point he took 60 damage from 7 people melee, prism did 30, true he was globed but I challenge you to take a globed char and tank a random 7 man legend group and see how much damage you are receiving. As the playerbase has decreased the raw damage of characters has increased so that people could continue to do zones without taking hours on hours to do one area (unless you're talking about Blood Shoal, ty Sanjuro.) We didn't see the defense or hitpoints of characters increase proportionally. What we are now seeing this wipe is the backlash against that power. I think it was a pretty clear statement from "the powers that be" that they are going to start curbing individual player power in an attempt to go back towards a more reasonable pk environment. I find it funny that a lot of the more vocal players on the forums have this idea that the "good ol' days" was just a better environment to play in....I highly doubt with the playerbase size as it is people would really want to have the same power character as those days, with most of the tanks extremely hard and maybe massacre on a sitting char with a very few annihilating. Taking hours to complete the old zones let alone tackling some of the new content because your damage is weak. Characters these days are consistently oblitting or more and yet people whined about stat decreases. Whined about group size being too small then whine about clerics not being necessary.

Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: gulca on January 12, 2016, 09:36:49 AM
No one likes driving a honda around a track after being in a ferrari. Especially when you have had fastest lap in under 2 min. Now lap times are in 8 minutes average.


Complains are just another form of feedback. Albeit something you love to ignore just cos.

Personally the stat change havent affect my limited play much. Maybe it is because i have always drove a honda
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 12, 2016, 09:41:46 AM
You're talking about an era where clerics could legitimately tank whole groups and not really break a sweat... As the playerbase has decreased the raw damage of characters has increased so that people could continue to do zones without taking hours on hours to do one area (unless you're talking about Blood Shoal, ty Sanjuro.) We didn't see the defense or hitpoints of characters increase proportionally. What we are now seeing this wipe is the backlash against that power.... Whined about group size being too small then whine about clerics not being necessary.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that the power creep has made healers less important, but now that oh so unpopular the nerf bat is coming out (group sizes reduction, stat reduction, healing cloud reduction) the stacked healers may once again become important.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Zozen on January 12, 2016, 10:29:10 AM
Stacked healers have always been important. You have never been able to effectively finish end game content without massive heals. Just like you need stacked main and tanks. The power creep made it so stacked healers died fast in Pk vs the old days not that they were less effective in zoning or groups.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Oligo on January 14, 2016, 01:06:49 AM
I challenge you to take a globed char and tank a random 7 man legend group and see how much damage you are receiving.

Challenge accepted.

Yhonk, a rank 31 legend warrior tanked the brunt of a 10v9 fight in the modern era (06/13/2013) with nearly all legends on both sides. It's doable, but he had two prime time battle healers as is visible from the below POV.
Quite frankly, without the two healers, fight would've been over by round 5.

http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2013_clean.txt (http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2013_clean.txt)


Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Jorake on January 14, 2016, 06:20:33 AM
A legend cleric with three solid animates is probably the most exciting thing to see in this game.  If you don't enjoy playing a healer once legendary then you aren't doing it right.  Nothing else in the game can sex-tuple-oblit AND heal the whole group.

Now, I will agree, playing a healer pre-legend sucks donkey butt...

Even that is boring. I've had 17heal clerics ive had 22heal clerics, i've had like.. 4 legend clerics. I hardly ever wanted to mess with animates. I did used to like gate. When Hezrou was a DK mob and marilith actually hit decently. I used gate all the time just because it was right there whenever i wanted. I hate taking time out to go grab some type of animate. or the perfect animate.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Jorake on January 14, 2016, 06:23:53 AM
What is even the point of this thread? People who are not "top healers", will never become "top healers" if they cannot practice. The only way to develop into a "top healer" is to solo heal the most difficult portions of the game successfully. Either that or write an elite script. Scripted healers are boring, as are fully scripted characters in general. There is no entertainment value to sitting there and watching your character heal like a champ day in and day out.

Are you trying to "psychologize" the reason they aren't played more? Bring attention to how much they need a revamp?

News flash: Clerics are still one of the most valuable classes in the game. Shamans were developed as an alternate healing class. This allows for greater group diversity, which IMO has been more pronounced because of the necessity to optimize classes in 8 man groups.  This top flight healer conversation is absurd and I'm sure quite insulting to many talented healers who aren't fully automated.  Why don't you break down a list of all the A B C and D group healers to enlighten us all of your insight...

LMAO. I'd consider myself one of those top healers who has never used a script.
I think you're being a bit harsh on richard though. Maybe say sorry? Instead of bashing a guy who is nice to everyone who plays this game.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Jorake on January 14, 2016, 06:33:54 AM
All I know is I've had legend druids and shamans. I'm not sure what the changes were to healing but I could solo heal pretty much all fights. And actually. Could of probably done cyan with just a healer and shaman last wipe.

Legend clerics are still fun though. Rapture is crazy, specially if you have legend barb with you. amel is also super sweet. I've always liked mist. Sunray is still fun.

GIVE CLERICS BACK REGEN AND DITCH THE SHAMANS!
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Valenore on January 14, 2016, 08:30:54 AM
I challenge you to take a globed char and tank a random 7 man legend group and see how much damage you are receiving.

Challenge accepted.

Yhonk, a rank 31 legend warrior tanked the brunt of a 10v9 fight in the modern era (06/13/2013) with nearly all legends on both sides. It's doable, but he had two prime time battle healers as is visible from the below POV.
Quite frankly, without the two healers, fight would've been over by round 5.

http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2013_clean.txt (http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2013_clean.txt)

I am sure you are saying a little of this in jest but just to point out:

1. Your "prime time battle healers" is are basically bot healers (guessing other one is also).  It appears there probably was an actual person looking at the screen because there were a few extra "group"s  and a mem thrown in, but all healing was automatic. 

2.  The other group did not target the healer and as soon as the healer got targetted (granted did get a well timed spec) Yhonk and then the healer ripped. 

3. As important as the healer is the druid's clouds that were neutralizing all the area damage freeing up the heal bot to take care of healing yhonk who was the only one consistently at fair or lower.  Take away the clouds and the heal script (or even a human healer which would not perform as well) would be spread to thin and the group would have RIPed in half the time.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Zozen on January 14, 2016, 09:25:05 AM
I challenge you to take a globed char and tank a random 7 man legend group and see how much damage you are receiving.

Challenge accepted.

Yhonk, a rank 31 legend warrior tanked the brunt of a 10v9 fight in the modern era (06/13/2013) with nearly all legends on both sides. It's doable, but he had two prime time battle healers as is visible from the below POV.
Quite frankly, without the two healers, fight would've been over by round 5.

http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2013_clean.txt (http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2013_clean.txt)

So then it's not do able. over 350 dam in a round? Compare that to lesath damage?
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Gnua on January 14, 2016, 09:44:22 AM
All I know is I've had legend druids and shamans. I'm not sure what the changes were to healing but I could solo heal pretty much all fights. And actually. Could of probably done cyan with just a healer and shaman last wipe.

Legend clerics are still fun though. Rapture is crazy, specially if you have legend barb with you. amel is also super sweet. I've always liked mist. Sunray is still fun.

GIVE CLERICS BACK REGEN AND DITCH THE SHAMANS!

Maybe brandon's plan to get me to roll a healer is to convince the imms to get rid of all shamans.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Jorake on January 14, 2016, 01:49:48 PM
That was my post. And I approve that message
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Oligo on January 16, 2016, 01:22:22 PM
1. Your "prime time battle healers" is are basically bot healers (guessing other one is also)...but all healing was automatic. 

Mondrian was Russian, but similar healing style.

Take away the clouds and the heal script (or even a human healer which would not perform as well) would be spread to thin and the group would have RIPed in half the time.

I did say that without the healing the fight would've been over in 5 rounds instead of prolonged 22 rounds. Since a theme of this whole thread is about whether healers have utility or not, I argue they still have great utility since the example I gave in log form shows they extended the fight, even though the battle was lost ultimately.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: breiner on January 26, 2016, 06:30:42 PM
Healers are supports and supports cant carry..

Tinotaur was intimidating to face. I'll have to dig up some Tinotaur logs, I always thought he was the best battle cleric of Arctic history.

A fully orb spelled up mino cleric with insane hitpoints, shields, and immunes. He also tanked for us frequently in fights that didnt require rescues. I cant remember if it was before mobs got target.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Oligo on January 27, 2016, 02:59:05 PM
He also tanked for us frequently in fights that didnt require rescues.

Orbed caster chars main tanking isn't anything new. Salnik as a mage two-manned Amity and Stone Statue in Ancient back in the 95-96 campaign with Saluben.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Hoss on January 27, 2016, 03:14:49 PM
My cat can eat a whole watermelon.
Title: Re: Attitude towards healers
Post by: Oligo on January 28, 2016, 12:07:59 AM
My cat can eat a whole watermelon.

You did strike me as a cat guy.