Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: kmark101 on December 19, 2015, 12:10:52 PM

Title: Group limit change
Post by: kmark101 on December 19, 2015, 12:10:52 PM
I still think this is a bad change for the game overall.
All it does is benches ppl from the main group when ppl would actually play the game, eventually diminishes the playerbase faster than normally happens each wipe.

Before someone says "you should form a 2nd group", that is not how it works with clans or a larger group of friends. It's typically someone leads a main group that does the "fun" stuff, while the remaining ppl are skilling, levelling alts etc... A 2nd "main" group never happens, not ever since the dawn of Arctic.

A couple comments just recently from our Skype in the last 2 minutes:
"bapting 8 man limit"
"yeah, bring back 10 mans, should just buff fights rather"
"yeah but it shouldn't be necessary to leave people!"

As for pvp, it actually has a worse effect, since larger pvp fights are much more fun.

All in all, this change has only negative effects. So, pls bring back the 10 person group limit, which would HELP to MAINTAIN a larger playerbase for a longer period of time.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Kadaj on December 19, 2015, 12:43:34 PM
I really don't understand the lowering the limit of groups. Once all 8 are legendary, every fight in the game besides probably 3 are easily doable on 8 or 10, regardless. I would much rather see the fights increase in difficulty or last a lot longer than they do now.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: ferum on December 21, 2015, 01:10:34 AM
much easier to reduce group members than to scale all mobs difficulties.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Ericj on December 21, 2015, 02:15:47 PM
I don't like to have to make people sit out when we actually have people wanting to play.  As someone said previously, the "2nd group" theory does not usually pan out.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: jrrestad on December 21, 2015, 07:12:17 PM
The lower group size limit is only a reduction by 2, but is really having a negative impact.  The difficulty isn't really different, you just don't group mages anymore, period.  It is really restricting clan groups, however, making people rent.

I vote to increase back to 10
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Gramm on December 22, 2015, 03:20:18 AM
Muahaha myth has 2 groups going all day oe! teach more people to drive the bus elitist clans!
I cant kill people fast enough so we form two massrip squads often.
ironically.. myth also has lowest clanrankpoints.  I blame shiri.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: ferum on December 22, 2015, 07:09:07 PM
@gram 2 groups of 2 mans doesn't count.

but the idea of people sitting out of clan play time is stupid.

people don't get to play when they want to play, cuts their addiction and soon people just quit.

Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: lurker on December 23, 2015, 06:00:31 AM
Maybe those people being sat should find new clans. Obviously they are on the bottom of the list for group priority in their current clan.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Jorake on December 25, 2015, 08:36:18 AM
I've always liked smaller groups anyhow. I agree with the 'teach others to fish" concept. Maybe they'll form their own clan and branch off and it will create more of a dynamic. How would increasing the limit back to 10 help? There will always be people trying to group, and those groups will be full. That person then is unable to group because that group has a 10man.. If we are going by that, then lets just take group limit caps off completely. NO MAN OR BOT LEFT BEHIND!
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Lyam on December 26, 2015, 04:44:49 PM
all these arguments were used before....

imms made groups go from 20 down to 12... wwaaahhh
then 12 to 10 ... WWWAAAAHHHH
now 10 to 8 ... time to put ppl on suicide watch

with the smaller playerbase and the increase in char power, smaller groups are good.. it is annoying when you get left out of groups.. but go hit some solo stuff or small group stuff... go socialise with other ppl and do stuff together

with the clan chat and other things available for ppl to talk to each other you can still joke around with your friends without having to be in the group

and as my 6yr old daughter says .. SUCK IT UP PRINCESS


Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: kmark101 on December 26, 2015, 05:54:38 PM
Extremely wrong approach from a couple of people.

20v20 were great pk battles... 12v12 less fun, less ppl,  10v10 even less fun, less ppl, 8v8 will be worse than that.
The change has zero effect on zones since most content can be done with 3-4 legendary chars due to the extreme powercreep and amount of gear available.

It really only hurts the social aspects. Some ppl don't like to solo (hence why they joined the clan) and won't do "solo" or "small group" stuff. They could have done that without clans/groups/friends. They are here to group with their friends and play the game all together, not in some small separated groups. Btw this stupid mentality kills the communities in games.

Again, it's not about challenges or "zones are easier" crap, it's about old group of people playing the game together.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Kadaj on December 26, 2015, 07:34:33 PM
How am I supposed to get nightmare with 8 people and nerfed heals, what is this!
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Lyam on December 27, 2015, 03:48:49 PM
the 20 v 20 pk battles were  great fun... why? .. cause if you massacred you were considered huge... if your tank had 600 hp you were considered to be huge, like 2 mages the entire wipe had high end spells... the chars back then weren't as strong as the chars now days so you needed 20 ppl to massdie to challenging zones or in pk..

12 man groups came in cause chars were suddenly annihilating and some rare were oblitting, 900 hp main tanks were the norm, spells were buffed.. making zones less challenging and pk faster.. sure some zones were tweaked to make them tougher but not to the scale that chars were getting buffed..

so along came 10 man groups and more char buffing.. if you didn't annihilate you were considered weak, if you worked out that your tank was under 600hp you rerolled, high end spells were insane and nearly every mage had them, as ppl say could do most zones with 2man legend chars...

now they introduced 8man groups.. but also hit the char stats with the nerf bat as well.. so everyone crying about how extreme things are... me? im finding doing zones more fun cause its more challenging now.. sure I get left out of groups.. but eh... I try to join other groups or spend an hour with my family while the group does their thing and try to join later.. give it about another month and everyone will have 2 legend chars to play.. doing most zones 3man... and why do they do this? cause they are after a challenge.


Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: kmark101 on December 27, 2015, 10:06:04 PM
doing most zones 3man... and why do they do this? cause they are after a challenge.

Noone is after a pve challenge (at least not the ppl I know in game), that's where you are wrong. Occasionally it's fun to run something with just a few ppl, but in the long run it's just not fun but extremely boring. It's all about the community, the social aspect (and eventually pk), that's why this change hurts.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: corey on December 28, 2015, 09:47:26 PM
doing most zones 3man... and why do they do this? cause they are after a challenge.

Noone is after a pve challenge (at least not the ppl I know in game), that's where you are wrong. Occasionally it's fun to run something with just a few ppl, but in the long run it's just not fun but extremely boring. It's all about the community, the social aspect (and eventually pk), that's why this change hurts.

The only fun I've had in this game the last few wipes was 2manning everything but the two hardest fights.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: oom on December 29, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
You two manned golden whale, Isolde and Sekolah?
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Jang Yoo Sung on December 29, 2015, 05:40:47 PM
doing most zones 3man... and why do they do this? cause they are after a challenge.

Noone is after a pve challenge (at least not the ppl I know in game), that's where you are wrong. Occasionally it's fun to run something with just a few ppl, but in the long run it's just not fun but extremely boring. It's all about the community, the social aspect (and eventually pk), that's why this change hurts.

The only fun I've had in this game the last few wipes was 2manning everything but the two hardest fights.

You two manned Soth?
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Zozen on December 29, 2015, 05:49:23 PM
2 man soth is do able.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Jang Yoo Sung on December 29, 2015, 06:14:00 PM
2 man soth is do able.

well me and my pal gram tried it...it was fun
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: gulca on December 29, 2015, 09:07:36 PM
I got soth solo to bad or v.bad solo. Corpse decayed by then. Was to lazy to get fresh corpse. I return next day for second round, and he decided it's not a good day to play. I got pwk on 2nd entry into the room.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: corey on December 30, 2015, 07:05:53 PM
By fights I meant zones. Silva/sahuagin or whatever the hell it's called.

Though we did do everything in Silva besides Cyan and the blacksmith.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Kir on December 31, 2015, 10:24:19 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that there are a lot of elite players who can do the majority of the game with small groups. However, I believe the majority of players, I'll call them "the average players" cannot do or are not willing to do because of time constraints. In my current clan there are about 20 people and you can pretty much break them down into 3 groups.

-(Hardcores) 5 are hardcore guys who play all day everday, can do just about everything, and legend their characters in the first week.
- (Average) 10 are average players, who play 3-5 days a week when they get home from work etc, who just want to log on, get summoned to group and zone and have fun. Some are legend, some are not, those who are are working towards it but just do not have the time.
-(Superdads) the remaining 5 are guys who basically can play like 2-5 hours a week, log on from their phone while their wife is taking a shower or asleep so they can get in some mud without getting wife.agroed. They barely play but they play when they can and they still enjoy the game and the grouping.

However, since the 8 man change, the superdads NEVER get into groups now, and we have had 2 average players and 1 hardcore already quit because there is just never any room in the group for them, mostly based on class dynamic. For example, if you are a mage, thief, or second healer, there is literally never any room for you in the group unless everybody else has logged off. Mages do nothing to contribute to a group nowadays that they can't do outside of the group (locating or zone specific stuff), and after flank being removed, thieves do jack shit in groups, and if a thief gets tired of the solo content, he is saying goodbye to arcticmud. A second healer is pointless, because if there is already a healer, the secondary healer cannot output dps (since animate dead nerf) so he is utterly useless as well.

Basically because of the 8 man groups, we are forced to have are best 8 guys in the group at all times. Those are the guys with the best gear and best class dynamic. And since they are all of the aforementioned they are also getting the most rank ponts and outranking the already behind guys. And I know there are all these theories like "create a second group" or form a new clan. But that doesn't happen in reality and people just quit from boredom and find other games to play.

So my point is I agree that if anything they should remove the group cap or expand it back to 13-20 when arctic was the most fun. Nobody has hypothesized yet so far that the arctic population has shrunk because the group size shrunk, but instead they claim the opposite, that the group size shrunk because of a shrinking population. However as somebody already previously stated, the group size was made smaller because characters were double annialating instead of massacring, not because the playerbase was dwindling. The population shrinks because players get bored, players get bored because they cannot zone. Players cannot zone because there is a limit to group size. The end.

Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Jorake on December 31, 2015, 11:34:39 AM
Creating new clans happens. Maybe not often but it happens. Rise wasn't around some wipes ago, nor was LoS or etc etc.

I am not sure why they went from 10 to 8 really, it doesn't make much difference in terms of legends and group power. It does alienate people though and that's not cool. A group limit of 13-20 is not the answer either. 20man group? That's half the mud sometimes! And in later months it'll be the entire mud.

Making another group is always an option and it good one. But then the argument is, who wants to do storms when the other group is doing sleet or something?

I would like to see more clans pop up out of this mess. More dynamic. Gives the mid-range clans someone to compete against.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: oom on January 01, 2016, 09:02:37 AM
Ultimately it should be the players who decide if the changes are good right?

Does ANYONE think the new stats and lower group sizes are allowing them to have MORE fun?

If so, I haven't heard from that person yet.

I admit I am playing FAR LESS than I do at wipe normally, at least partially due to the changes.(mostly group size)
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: reed23 on January 02, 2016, 04:34:23 AM
At first I thought the 8 man group would be something different and interesting.  Mostly because it was announced at the end of last wipe when it was nearly impossible to find 10 people to find a group.  I had forgotten the wipe-rush frenzy when there are 10-15 people on in a clan at a given time.  I agree with the majority that have posted so far.  The group limit should be expanded back to 10-12 imo.  I've seen 3-5 rise already "quit" because they never get in the group and it is frustrating as a clan leader to either A take a worthless character in the group so they get some group time or B take the most efficient group even if that means someone sitting on the sidelines for the whole weekend. 
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: snax on January 02, 2016, 06:54:19 AM
At first I thought the 8 man group would be something different and interesting.  Mostly because it was announced at the end of last wipe when it was nearly impossible to find 10 people to find a group.  I had forgotten the wipe-rush frenzy when there are 10-15 people on in a clan at a given time.  I agree with the majority that have posted so far.  The group limit should be expanded back to 10-12 imo.  I've seen 3-5 rise already "quit" because they never get in the group and it is frustrating as a clan leader to either A take a worthless character in the group so they get some group time or B take the most efficient group even if that means someone sitting on the sidelines for the whole weekend.

I like your post the best.  As one of the typically sidelined let's get the population shouting grouping with mixed people etc.  I had an adopt a tank adopt a healer session the other day and yeah I kept wondering "is this faceless healer going to absolutely suck?" and while the healer was fine, the dynamics were a retro-throwback because there were so many layers of cooperation and clicks absent.  A lot of the problem clans are having is not that they're sidelining players, it's that they have 70% of their players wanting to solo or 2 man for 90000 things straight for their own legend status or their own gear needs, leaving the players who don't even known 10 things to do stuck grumbling no one loves them.  Give the chaff a whack in the side of the head and give them something worth doing!  If they're quiting because they have nothing to do, so be it.  There are pros and cons to every decision.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: kmark101 on January 02, 2016, 10:59:00 PM
As we wait for the change back to the 10 person group limit more and more people quits every day... Really pointless loss of a portion of the playerbase...
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Hoss on January 03, 2016, 08:37:11 PM
The group size change is something that we are closely monitoring. I would agree that moving the limit to 8 did not immediately change the group power scale all that much, however the original idea was to move to a limit of 6. I have appreciated the few of you that have taken the time to provide your well thought out feedback.  At this point in the wipe we just do not have enough data to guide us either way, and moving the group limit back to 10 would be a knee-jerk reaction to the few of you that are whining.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Bryton on January 03, 2016, 09:11:26 PM
The group size change is something that we are closely monitoring. I would agree that moving the limit to 8 did not immediately change the group power scale all that much, however the original idea was to move to a limit of 6. I have appreciated the few of you that have taken the time to provide your well thought out feedback.  At this point in the wipe we just do not have enough data to guide us either way, and moving the group limit back to 10 would be a knee-jerk reaction to the few of you that are whining.


The few that's "whining" are about 50% of this games population and most of them are leaders in some clans. So yes I would listen to their "whining". Thanks for the asinine remarks though.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Zozen on January 03, 2016, 09:15:06 PM

The few that's "whining" are about 50% of this games population and most of them are leaders in some clans. So yes I would listen to their "whining". Thanks for the asinine remarks though.

I like all the changes, especially the tears.

Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Hoss on January 03, 2016, 09:30:47 PM
@Bryton While rude, it is true that we do not listen to you at all.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: kmark101 on January 04, 2016, 01:49:38 AM
At this point in the wipe we just do not have enough data to guide us either way, and moving the group limit back to 10 would be a knee-jerk reaction to the few of you that are whining.

I think you will have only less data in the future as the playerbase is shrinking, mostly because some people can't group while the fun lasts. Which means there will be less ppl asking for the change, less data to use. Losing players in each wipe is inevitable and will happen this time as well, but this change is making the process much faster. Whining or not, I just really really hate when you sit down to play and simply can't join your friends for hours or days because there is no room in the group for your class or character. You guys are doing such a hard work to keep this game running, why don't you want more people to enjoy it instead of cutting them down with regulations like this?
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: lurker on January 04, 2016, 06:26:17 AM
Large groups suck, but are much more efficient than small groups. Why take the time to figure out a superior strategy to beat a fight, when you can just bring in a few more fodder instead and steamroll it? I have more fun duoing and soloing than I do sitting in a big group just type "ass" every 5 seconds.

If above comments are to be believed, the fans of large groups have already quit the game. It might just be that the remaining playerbase loves the smaller group sizes, and they will quit if the change is reverted.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Hele on January 05, 2016, 05:50:53 PM
Here's what this limit has done to me. I'll ask and ask for room, but they are already reserved for 30 lvl / legends. We seldom have room for lowbies who try to xp. So I have to sit out and train camp etc..

I'm feeling kinda frustrated, chose a class that's not easily soloed to 30 lvl and rank 20. If we had bigger group sizes i think more ppl like me would be in the groups.  For me it's just killing my will to play. I like the game, but i like the game with ppl more.

Plz bring back bigger group sizes.

Hele
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: ferum on January 06, 2016, 11:45:25 PM
A team will always continue to be A team because the group always needs the best to do the best mobs in game.

B team will always continue to be B team because of the above.

Solution, B team quits the clan and make B clan with other B team members of other clans.

If you are not a person who can make new friends, time to find a new game!

The amount of player base left within the next few weeks will show the results of which solution people took.



Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Jorake on January 07, 2016, 01:58:37 PM
I 100% agree with breaking out and making new clans. I love seeing new clans spring up.

Scouts are 1 of the easiest to solo exp on. Train your fence up!

As a follower/leader here are my serious thoughts:

Even with 10 man group limits people were still left out, that's fact. Were there less left out? Sure, 2 less. I think its the clans job to rotate their people in and out at this point. Why not make a 2nd group? When the group limit changed to 10 people made the same arguments.

As for group power. Ive 2manned glymmer with legend paladin/shaman. Idk how it'll shake out for cyan or anything like that but group power is not an issue.

Let it go at least 3 months. Then make a decision if it should go back or not, but by that time the population will shrink and it wont matter!
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Gramm on January 08, 2016, 03:31:46 PM
a good clan elder would be willing to leave the main group even if his chieftain scolds him for it, and lead his fellow clansmen around when they are in need.

team a team b team c isn't a bad idea, but again if all your leaders are in team a.... then you are only shooting yourselves in the foot by not helping the rest of your clan that is in need.. that's just my opinion though, I will often hand the group over and lead team b instead. seems to keep most people happy
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Alecto on January 10, 2016, 05:36:13 PM
I really don't see the problem people imagine is happening.  There is normally an 8 man zoning hard in the clan I am currently associated with.  There are also typically 2-8 other people in the clan around.  If I am not in the "main group" I have no problem soloing or leading small groups, and those 8 man groups are a revolving door, eventually they need more members and I can get in if I want.

If you log onto arctic and then immediately log off because you can't be in the "main group" then you probably aren't a very valuable member anyway.  Strong clan members ALWAYS have skilling, coin runs, xp and trash ranks they can be running when not in the main group.  If your hope is the clan will just provide all those things for you then you are just a leech.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Gnua on January 11, 2016, 10:21:07 AM
A team will always continue to be A team because the group always needs the best to do the best mobs in game.
B team will always continue to be B team because of the above.

What's wrong with being on the B team?
Title: Deletion of Eviltim for large group
Post by: Annunuki on January 12, 2016, 10:05:42 AM
Eviltim can be a douche. But yet its still disturbing to watch him being deleted for killing wilds in a fight that was no different than any other. His group was bigger, so what. The group limits were not for PVP, only AFTER the fight did Hoss wish to pretend he had cheated. We have most of us played this game for nearly 20 years. Another obvious case of immortal intervention.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Pyder on January 13, 2016, 02:24:14 AM
Remove Legendary rank and Volley for skyscouts, make grouplimit 10 or 12 again, problem solved.
Not even funny how powerful a stacked (for example) mountainscout is with stuff like thrash etc.

OR!

Something has to be done to rewrite all the encounters to fit the newfound power of these legendary chars.
2-3-manning previously 10-12 man content is not cool :)

I'm returning this wipe to the MUD after a 9-10 year afk, and for better or worse, it's not the same game I used to play at all.
Altho my experiences so far is that you can just yawn your way through places like CT or whatever is not really adding to the fun experience.
For me atleast! I do appriciate the idea of legendary rank etc, but the rest of the game has to adapt to it also for it to work.
Get some interns to tweak all the encounters with boss hp, how hard they hit etc and we'll be in the express lane to glory in no time :)

Other then that it's great fun to be back and meet all the people again, some of which I've known for the past two decades or more!

// SwedeAndy
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: muddeer on January 13, 2016, 04:31:47 AM
It's not the legends that has made the game so much easier.  I think it's the gear.  There are far more "elite" items now than before.   Since new zones created are mostly high level ones, there are more higher tier gear than ever.  At the same time the number of players are smaller, resulting in everyone running around with 3d6++ weapons, and healers with less than 8 heals considered not worthy of a group spot.  The non-legendary melees now days hit harder than the top hitters of pre-legend era.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: lurker on January 13, 2016, 10:32:18 AM
I remember the days when a 2d6 offhand was worth a lot of coin. Now, formerlly elite stuff like +hitroll gear, autoflys, primes with 12+ avg damage are all vendor junk. Times have changed.

Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Ezio on January 13, 2016, 02:43:45 PM
I'm glad I didn't play when 12 dam primes and hit roll gear was considered elite.

It is far more likely that it was considered elite to you.

Ten years ago I played for a week and could load a 3d5++. Any money bet the elite players of that time weren't running around with basket hilted longswords
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: lurker on January 14, 2016, 10:06:14 AM
I'm glad I didn't play when 12 dam primes and hit roll gear was considered elite.

It is far more likely that it was considered elite to you.

Ten years ago I played for a week and could load a 3d5++. Any money bet the elite players of that time weren't running around with basket hilted longswords

Do you know how average damage is calculated? I don't want to reveal too much game info, but if you think a basket hilted longsword is a 12+ avg damage prime, you need a lesson in math. 12+ is, at a minimum a 4d4+3 weapon, or a 3d6+1. Maybe elite was the wrong word, but these sorts of weapons were not found sitting on the vendor in the past, because they had a very high value among the players who played, even players in serious clans

But please, more humble brags, it really makes you look like a douche.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Gnua on January 14, 2016, 10:28:11 AM
Do you know how average damage is calculated? I don't want to reveal too much game info, but if you think a basket hilted longsword is a 12+ avg damage prime, you need a lesson in math. 12+ is, at a minimum a 4d4+3 weapon, or a 3d6+1.

nitpick: 4d4 +2 averages to 12 dam.  12+ usually means 12 or more.  3d6 + 1 averages to 11.5

your overall point is valid though. there was a time that 12 or more average damage weapons were used by somewhat serious players and they got their damage from the items. though even now i dont think u find blessed elven longswords at the vendor.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: lurker on January 14, 2016, 11:23:16 AM
Thanks for catching the error.  And keep in mind I am talking relative terms. A 4d4 +2 +2 might have been a good weapon, while a 4d4 +2 -2 would get thrown on the vendor. But generally, if a 1-handed prime weapon had 12 or better average damage, and positive hitroll bonus, that was pretty damn good and you would never see it on a vendor - with a few rare exceptions like loot from a random pkilling being dumped.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Ezio on January 14, 2016, 03:22:00 PM
Eli Manning is not an elite quarterback.

I have no leg to stand on as I didn't play then. I am just saying if +hit roll, 12 dam weapons, and auto flies were elite I would be surprised.

That's not a brag, that's an average player. If you can load it in a level 3 zone, I would not consider it to be an elite item.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Zozen on January 14, 2016, 03:48:09 PM
The +hitroll/enchanted set/venom dagger main warrior was great!
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: oom on January 14, 2016, 06:33:28 PM
Eli Manning is not an elite quarterback.

I have no leg to stand on as I didn't play then. I am just saying if +hit roll, 12 dam weapons, and auto flies were elite I would be surprised.

That's not a brag, that's an average player. If you can load it in a level 3 zone, I would not consider it to be an elite item.

I remember vividly being pkilled for a 3d5 2dr 1hr prime, another time for green swordsman gloves, and another for an int/wis necklace.

If I remember correctly there was once a limit of 200 players online at a time and I used to wait at my computer for a spot to open. There were much fewer zones, and equipment, for the most part, wasn't as strong in general as it is now. Combine that with the fact that there were 5 times more players online at any given time.. yeah a 3d6 2/2 prime was considered to be pretty awesome. A +dam item on an unclanned character was usually pk'd for within a few days. Red Chasuble or whatever from thorb was considered to be a very good item. Now you couldn't give it away. Same with HELD autofly items. Those things were always maxed.

Arctic changed a lot before you started playing.

Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Jorake on January 15, 2016, 07:56:45 AM
My first pk was walking someone into the tarsis sewers DT because he had my 3d6 2 2 sturdy twohanded sword from the hired mercenary N of bali. I was i think... 12-13 years old. 

The highest I got that wipe was lvl 19 on a barbarian. And i never went any further than around tarsis and to the hired mercenary based on dirs that some guy named jarlaxle gave me.

Fun times.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Chisul on January 15, 2016, 10:29:51 PM
I think that was me...
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Ericj on January 16, 2016, 01:45:48 PM
I have been testing out this group limit change and wanted to give it some time before jumping to any rash decisions.  After a month now, we have a good evaluation period.  The thought behind group size I understand, try to make game harder and avoid chance of bots for any filler spots.  The issue is that its not exactly what is happening.

I've led a fair amount in this game and still lead groups this wipe.  I find with 8 limit group I am having to really pick and choose the folks we need in groups since things are harder, along with half the group has crap natural stats :)  The folks who get left out typically are mages and people who just are not as skilled in the game or maybe not legend.  I try to include sub 30's/non-legends but when push comes to shove, you take legends for harder zones.  The theory of 2ndary groups rarely works out.  I would love to take along more people who just want to zone and don't know much, but group limit change has made that difficult.  More people we can bring along and zone, the longer people have fun.  I also enjoyed filling spots with neutrals who are not in my clan, give them a chance to zone/rank, but that is also something that has not been able to happen.

There is no way to satisfy or fix every problem.  We can have group limits of 12 again and some bots will fill spots, we can have group limits of 6 and bots will fill spots there too.  At this time though, the ripple effect of this group limit change is real players are being left out.  The game is great and fun, we need to try to get as many active players engaged and keep them engaged.  The news about some nerfs coming, which I may not be thrilled with, could be a great time to change group limit back to 10 for a little give & take in this adjustment process.

Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Jorake on January 22, 2016, 06:40:31 AM
I halfway agree with Eric here. He is one of the more neutral friendly bigzone leaders.

Apoc isnt big enough to have to pick and choose like that I guess. We only have like 9 players total and 2 of them already quit it seems. I guess, I just don't understand every ones panic on this. How many awesome leaders does CORE have? I've seen enough of you on to have 2 groups going. I know Ilya/Eric lead almost all the same stuff. So why not branch out and get a diff group going? Then no one is left out.

I get wanting to group with your pals, I am fortunate enough that my clan is smaller and we don't have to pick and choose. Like I said before. This argument has been made each and every time the group limits have changed. There is always going to be someone left out. There is always going to be someone who gets kicked for someone else. I doubt anyone brings a mage to kraken or blazewight to begin with.

I would love to see some more clans pop up!
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Zozen on January 22, 2016, 03:17:06 PM
I doubt anyone brings a mage to kraken or blazewight to begin with.

But end-game mages sure as shit are in pvp groups..
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Oligo on January 26, 2016, 12:20:30 AM
If I had collected feedback since the beginning, I think I'd have a few pages worth of similar quotes as below.

http://normstorm.com/arctic/arctic_feedback.png (http://normstorm.com/arctic/arctic_feedback.png)
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: RichE on January 26, 2016, 06:53:11 AM
The reason you don't have 2 groups alot is because the leaders aka high level ranked chars are needed I  the main group so rarely any leader for 2nd group.  Think about it if you had 4 leaders in a clan they are all on at the same time you will want a big main group for harder zones.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Gnua on January 26, 2016, 10:40:19 AM
The reason you don't have 2 groups alot is because the leaders aka high level ranked chars are needed I  the main group so rarely any leader for 2nd group.  Think about it if you had 4 leaders in a clan they are all on at the same time you will want a big main group for harder zones.

Another issue with the second group is that when a couple people rent out of the main group, then the second group collapses because the main group takes key players out of the second group.  I dont mind being left out if one person in the main group is willing to leave and do 2man stuff with me. Stealing one out of a ten person group is a little less detrimental to the main group than taking one of eight though.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: breiner on January 26, 2016, 05:06:56 PM
Group limit increased to 10.
A change appreciated by our little merry band of people.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Gnua on January 26, 2016, 05:18:43 PM
Group limit increased to 10.
A change appreciated by our little merry band of people.

would it make sense for legends to take up two group spots?
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Alecto on January 26, 2016, 05:35:59 PM
I am just waiting for people to start asking why we can't have 12...14...16 people in a group.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Gramm on January 26, 2016, 05:37:43 PM
can we have unlimited again?
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Alecto on January 28, 2016, 06:08:58 AM
and so it begins...
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Zozen on January 28, 2016, 09:38:12 AM
I'm just wondering when people are going to realize that the group limits is related to how hoss and zone creators are editing zone strength and individual player power and in a month or three when there are 10-20 active people online and people are struggling to get a group they will be complaining about how weak their characters are and how they can't 6-7 man cyan anymore. All because they wanted 2 more people in their group. I'm waiting for the Hoss bomb to drop because he gave back 10 man limit: Flat damage reduction of -30 % across the board? All chars -150 hps? All main fights power increased again to what they were?
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Gnua on January 28, 2016, 12:16:37 PM
I'm just wondering when people are going to realize that the group limits is related to how hoss and zone creators are editing zone strength and individual player power and in a month or three when there are 10-20 active people online and people are struggling to get a group they will be complaining about how weak their characters are and how they can't 6-7 man cyan anymore. All because they wanted 2 more people in their group. I'm waiting for the Hoss bomb to drop because he gave back 10 man limit: Flat damage reduction of -30 % across the board? All chars -150 hps? All main fights power increased again to what they were?

legendary fills up two group slots would have a similar effect without nerfing everyone.  I think the need for more than 8 in a group is mostly before people are legendary anyways. While I'm not keen on people being left out, I also like the idea that big fights can be done on 8 even prelegend.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Hoss on January 28, 2016, 05:37:20 PM
We balance the game around a full group of legendary characters, we are currently discussing how to best re-balance for 10 man groups, but yes, you can expect the overall power scale to decrease for players and increase for mobs.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Patpat on January 28, 2016, 07:09:47 PM
Just letting you know me and my small group of friends thought 8 mans was a good change. In another month or two most of these people that cried about 10 man groups will have quit for the wipe anyways, logons are already decreasing, soon the CORE horde will quite too and the remainder of us will be trying to explore the mud on our 5 man pick up groups. I'm not necessarily an elite player, and still having fun exploring and learning some of the lesser known content and hope it will still be accessible late wipe when everyone quits.

Small strong groups yay. Large weak groups nay.

thanks for all the hard work imms!
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: Hoss on January 29, 2016, 09:28:14 AM
It is something that I am going to continue to monitor as we progress through the wipe. I still think that the 10 man group will be the outside the norm, but some groups just need to play the game in easy-mode.
Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: snax on January 29, 2016, 10:21:59 PM
It is something that I am going to continue to monitor as we progress through the wipe. I still think that the 10 man group will be the outside the norm, but some groups just need to play the game in easy-mode.

Easy mode makes sense.  Balancing for a 8 or 10 man legend means you're balancing for the top 2/3rds of the playerbase (which is kind and makes sense) until you start thinking about why we play (it makes less obvious distractions at jobs etc than graphical shootemups) and then you realize most of us are juggling kids / teenagers / and stuff that gives us a little bit less time to power up and rule the game like 20 years ago.

If you balanced for the bottom 10% the game would spontaneously shut itself closed because everyone would win, there would be no stupid 3 am skype calls or texts or phone calls to log and help cr...and the game would actually have an end.

That said, I can't *wait* to see what creative plays you have next but can i pretty please suggest shamans spirits 1 at 15, 2 at 30, and maybe up to 4 at legend.  Yeah they won't be able to "solo" like a 5 man 3rd tier clan as well, *** it's time to dial them down *** maybe? please? Grandpa?


Title: Re: Group limit change
Post by: lurker on January 30, 2016, 07:06:11 AM

If you balanced for the bottom 10% the game would spontaneously shut itself closed because everyone would win, there would be no stupid 3 am skype calls or texts or phone calls to log and help cr...and the game would actually have an end.


It's really more complex than that. 90% of the zones can be balanced for the bottom 10% and the game would still be okay as long as the top 10% "elite" zones were still challenging for the skilled players.  Obviously these are just numbers pulled out of thin air, but the point is the entire mud isn't all set on the same difficulty level, some zones are easier and some zones are harder.