Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hoodoo on December 14, 2015, 05:35:52 PM

Title: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Hoodoo on December 14, 2015, 05:35:52 PM
I try to be a staunch supporter of the unpaid immortal and their hard, valiant work on this mud.   I get that nobody pays you, you do it for some odd and masochistic urge to help people who mostly just insult you. I try not to be one of those guys. That's why I deleted the first two posts about this topic before posting them.  Too angry.


Still... by 'fixing' the stat system after 2 days playtime, you've just invalidated a full weekend's play (commonly, actually a full weekend, with 4-8 hours sleep total) by your hardest-playing constituents.  You've created an underclass of the uselessly statted who have a choice to either a. stick it out knowing they're missing 2-4 points in stats on their *primary stats* they would otherwise have had you not bapted the dog originally, or b. re-roll and consider the wasted 48+hours online as a sunk cost.

There needs to be a third option, whereupon you admit that you bapted the dog, and that your players shouldn't have to give up time and work because of your failure. Right now, I, most of my clan, and I imagine a *lot* of other players are so angry they could chew cars and shit nails.

Jason
Title: Re: You bapted up... how will you fix it?
Post by: Gramm on December 14, 2015, 05:41:42 PM
I think yes it sucks that it happened, and its a new system in place. Knowing that obviously changes will be made I reckon. But thanks for trying to keep it fresh guys! Not everything is gonna be perfect right away, but im sure we can all tell some changes are in order lolol. For me personally its been failing almost every spell we load, which is like 6 out of 8 so far. and I have 16 int nat roll druid. which is apparently a good one lol
Title: Re: You bapted up... how will you fix it?
Post by: Hoodoo on December 14, 2015, 06:50:31 PM
A reasonable suggestion requiring little work:  Offer 1 reroll at 30 to any character with a creation date between wipe and the stat fix.  You get a character with 16 max stats to 30, we'll give you *one* chance to make that better (or possibly worse), with no take-backs.   Don't have to use it: petition to an imm when/if needed.

This is doable.  This should be done.  There is no reason *not* to implement this as a way to help your players not have to suffer for your mistakes/problems in alpha testing that made us buy into a flawed beta.

There is a fix here other than "You're all bapted.  *callous laughter*"  Choose to use it.

Jason
Title: Re: You bapted up... how will you fix it?
Post by: blackmagus on December 14, 2015, 06:55:18 PM
That's a pretty inflammatory post Jason and whether you intended or not, you come across as a spoiled child whose just been told his friend got a bigger piece of cake.

But guess what, they didn't release a range stating the amount of difference between system v1.0 and v2.0, but even with randomness, chances are your increase will be marginal at best, or a reduction at worst.

So suck it up, roll another character and take the six hours of game play to get back up to 30. You can still transfer your  gear and not come across as an ungrateful brat.
Title: Re: You bapted up... how will you fix it?
Post by: Hoodoo on December 14, 2015, 07:02:00 PM
Odd... I toned this post down quite a bit. :)  Your opinion, though.  My tone is likely off the intended, no doubt, though I dispute your characterization of 'spoiled'.  However, when a game designer makes a mistake, he shouldn't make his players pay for it without offering a common-sense 'my bad' token.  That's a given on almost any game.  Not a hard concept.

The only confusing thing is your defending the lack of this common sense approach.  The only reason not to take this approach, which would require minimal investment of time/effort given that most will just reroll anyway rather than take these characters to 30, would be apathy towards the time investment made by said players, which translates into apathy towards one's players.

I am usually far more optimistic than that about our imms.  Hell, I love the new stat system: nice seeing some challenge come back.  But.. this is really an easy and obvious way of saying "My bad!" to those few people who would choose to take advantage of it.

Just common sense, boss.  If my tone obscured my message, my apologies.  I actually edited out a lot of anger before posting. :)

Jason
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: gnua on December 14, 2015, 07:29:33 PM
You've created an underclass of the uselessly statted who have a choice to either a. stick it out knowing they're missing 2-4 points in stats on their *primary stats* they would otherwise have had you not bapted the dog originally, or b. re-roll and consider the wasted 48+hours online as a sunk cost.

I know you must be very upset, but most of the grief may come from the unexpected nature of this.  For example, suppose we were told before the wipe, that every character made in the first 72 hours would have -2 penalty to each and every stat compared to characters after this 'race window'.  Would you have decided not to race and wait or would you have raced then rerolled and transferred gear?  In the past, it was standard practice to create trash stat characters for racing to get the juicy eq, then after the gear had been deeprented, people rolled 'permanent' characters and transferred the gear to them.  I dont think the racing time is wasted because the racers got gear that would have been hard to load had they started playing only today.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Hoss on December 14, 2015, 07:31:48 PM
You are missing at most +1 attribute point (from the bug). We looked at what it would take to adjust all the previous characters that "might" have been affected. It was not plausible without a full player wipe. We understand that you are upset, however stating that it is an easy fix that requires minimal time/effort isn't accurate.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: gnua on December 14, 2015, 10:03:22 PM
You are missing at most +1 attribute point (from the bug). We looked at what it would take to adjust all the previous characters that "might" have been affected. It was not plausible without a full player wipe. We understand that you are upset, however stating that it is an easy fix that requires minimal time/effort isn't accurate.

if the bug causes at most one attribute point, that doesnt sound that big of a deal. i thought it was more like 4 or 5 based on the new characters i rolled.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: kilians on December 15, 2015, 02:10:01 PM
I re-rolled, and my personal opinions is it was well worth it based on what i rolled and what i rolled before this *bug* i was able to get 2 more con 1 more strength and 2 Dex on a kagonesti that that being said my prior character was horrid compared to new one....
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: kmark101 on December 15, 2015, 02:20:26 PM
Wipe characters suck traditionally anyway, so I don't understand what's the big deal. Not like its hard or anything, besides you still won't be able to wield that sword with 16 or 17 str...

HOWEVER what I see is a problem is the new group limit change - I already feel it's pretty bad. It's mostly tight, old friend groups are playing together, now you just remove 2 friends from the main group who log off and lose interest in the game. It won't change any difficulty, buff chars will remain powerful anyway. As for key fights, like Cyan, you could make a change instead: make their lair a 8 person instance or something along this line. It would make them challenging on the same level, without cutting 20% of a group of friends for the game.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Jorquin on December 15, 2015, 03:24:41 PM
The attribute bug was a clever plot devised by the village of Brog. They are conspiring with the one known as "Hoss" and planning their rise to power. Weakening you all was the first step, soon phase 2 begins...

Be afraid.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: lurker on December 15, 2015, 08:19:10 PM
I re-rolled, and my personal opinions is it was well worth it based on what i rolled and what i rolled before this *bug* i was able to get 2 more con 1 more strength and 2 Dex on a kagonesti that that being said my prior character was horrid compared to new one....

There was something weird going on with kagonesti stats. I was rolling them this morning, I like the chance for extra attack racial ability, so I was trying to figure them out. Seemed they had a really nice dex bonus and no con bonus.  Then oddly enough after lunch while rolling, I suddenly started rolling them with higher con than ever before, and yet couldn't even roll nearly as good of a dex score as before.

I'm wondering if a cat hit the keyboard and messed up wild elf stats or something, because they certainly changed a lot after the FOOM today.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Gramm on December 15, 2015, 10:18:35 PM
Best idea yet for new stats! Go back to OLD stats, I agree at wipe start its hard yes, but this is so  noticeably bad. At least can you make it easier to learn spells.. I feel bad for all the druids that are going to fail stoneskin. To fail barrier enlarge icestorm feast all on day 2 is a little bit beyond disheartening when you have 7 friends wasting their time loading you tablets that you know you are going to just fail anyways. I understand this might seem like whining to some hardcore people who will "deal" with getting nerfed differently. But at this point im sure I am not the only one who considered throwing their laptop like a Frisbee at these "awesome" nerfs of stats. Isnt making group max only 8 a large enough change to add a challenge? Now you have given druids down syndrome to boot.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Ezio on December 15, 2015, 11:46:22 PM
Maybe they did make it easier on spells, and you aren't giving yourself the best opportunity to pass!

BOOM roasted
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Valenore on December 16, 2015, 07:40:31 AM
The stat lowering seems unnecessary unless a lot more +stat gear was added.  I haven't noticed that thus far.  It will limit the number of alts I roll (no thrill of rolling the "perfect" class) which will decrease my overall longevity through the wipe.   

Spell learn does seem to be an issue.  I can deal with the overall stat lowering, but that effecting learn rate is silly.  Casters are already harder to legendary due to the required spells. Adversely lowering the learn rate only compounds that issue.  My 16 int cleric (rolled about 10 qualinesti and was as high as I got) failed dispel evil, cure crit, and harm 3x each.  Maybe I could have rolled and rolled to get a 17 or 18 int (now that the initial bug is fixed), but that seems like it would be a marginal difference.  If I do end up failing a few high end books, which outside of mage help seems very likely at this point, that will severely dampen my desire to play.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Jorake on December 17, 2015, 06:50:15 AM
I agree with the multiple character thing. Stats were never the issue of balancing. I'm not even sure why they would be messed with.

I do agree with the group limit size. With legends broke as f u ck, it won't matter for most t hings. Can still solo certain zones with certain classes. Can still 3man 50% of zones. And can still 5-6man things like ochre/5head etc.

As far as learning. Level a white robe, get tons of int/learn and have em study that one spell.. that i can't remember right now! Then it'll help others learn when get books etc.

Maybe we shouldnt be able to get 25int mages and 23con tanks. 20 isn't a bad rolling cap though. 
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Zozen on December 17, 2015, 08:31:55 AM
I have enjoyed the decrease power of characters and groups overall by the stat and group size change.

What this means is that people are having to buy +stat rank instead of +slot or +damage if they want to get their int or str or whatever high. Choices make the game more balanced and better.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: gnua on December 17, 2015, 08:47:41 AM
The stat lowering seems unnecessary unless a lot more +stat gear was added. 
I was under the impression that under the old stat system, +stat gear was often thrown away leading to the conclusion there was more supply of +stat than demand for +stat. The lowering would in theory increase the demand for +stat and so bring balance without the need to introduce +stat gear.

Though from my personal experience +str and +con and +learn was always in short supply and the other stats were always discarded as trash.  with an overall lowering of stats, I would expect +str and +con and +learn to be in even shorter supply unless some gear of that type gets added.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: kmark101 on December 17, 2015, 10:29:21 AM
I have enjoyed the decrease power of characters and groups overall by the stat and group size change.

You have probably enjoyed it cause you were rolling with a smaller crew.
Here, we would have to sit people to the bench due to the group size limit, who then lose their interest in the game. Think this change is actually removing ppl from the playerbase right now and totally not necessary.
As for the pvp aspect, I always loved 20vs20 battles of the past, so it's even worse there..
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Alecto on December 17, 2015, 12:04:40 PM
But couldn't those "benched" people make a small group of their own?  Groups of 4-5 seem ideal for powerlevelling, while the 8-mans are for popping gear and books.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Valenore on December 17, 2015, 12:15:39 PM
I was under the impression that under the old stat system, +stat gear was often thrown away leading to the conclusion there was more supply of +stat than demand for +stat. The lowering would in theory increase the demand for +stat and so bring balance without the need to introduce +stat gear.

There are two reasons +stat gear had low demand before: playerbase size and utility.  The stat change doesn't really effect either of these.

A player will wear a piece of gear if it is better than what they currently have.  Because of this, the size of the playerbase has the strongest correlation to the value of gear.  +stat gear was often thrown away because with a small playerbase there is enough good equipment that most dedicated players could get +spell slot, +dmg, or +multiple stat gear.  Lowering character stats doesn't really change that. 

On the utility side a lot of stats have threshold value or situational value beyond which there isn't a reason to seek it out.  A primary example is +wis to hit a particular spell slot bonus.  After that you don't really care.  Or for most casters +int is only a concern for learning books which is a rare event.  Once you are spelled you don't care about the int.  +con always has value because every increment gives hps.  Go back to the old system of +con/hp thresholds and the value of +con would go down.  +str always has value because it determines what weapons you can wield/offhand. 
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Zozen on December 17, 2015, 12:38:57 PM
I was under the impression that under the old stat system, +stat gear was often thrown away leading to the conclusion there was more supply of +stat than demand for +stat. The lowering would in theory increase the demand for +stat and so bring balance without the need to introduce +stat gear.

There are two reasons +stat gear had low demand before: playerbase size and utility.  The stat change doesn't really effect either of these.

A player will wear a piece of gear if it is better than what they currently have.  Because of this, the size of the playerbase has the strongest correlation to the value of gear.  +stat gear was often thrown away because with a small playerbase there is enough good equipment that most dedicated players could get +spell slot, +dmg, or +multiple stat gear.  Lowering character stats doesn't really

I'm seeing people that would normally wear +dam in nearly every slot using more str items to wield big primes. Lowering their overall damage.   
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: kmark101 on December 17, 2015, 01:46:00 PM
But couldn't those "benched" people make a small group of their own?  Groups of 4-5 seem ideal for powerlevelling, while the 8-mans are for popping gear and books.

No they just log off, like from the dawn of Arctic - not really interested unless you are in the main group (except for levelling, but most are over that and wants to group)
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Jorake on December 17, 2015, 02:32:52 PM
Well bapt those people! This is a nice way to force folks to break up a bit. Maybe some bigger clans will have people branch off and form their own clan etc. Start learning things for themselves or putting their current knowledge to use.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Valenore on December 17, 2015, 02:59:48 PM
I'm seeing people that would normally wear +dam in nearly every slot using more str items to wield big primes. Lowering their overall damage.

Unless they aren't that bright or are spreading gear for clan mates they are not lowering their overall damage.  They are using +str to wield a weapon that gives more overall damage gained than the +dmg gear they have access to with a lesser weapon.  i.e. 3d7 +2 primary and +3 dmg > 3d6 2/2 primary with +5 dmg. 

This isn't a situation that is unique to the stat reduction although the stat reduction may amplify it.  There are some very nice weapons in the game that require a 28 str to primary (and plenty that are 24+).  If you get one of those you may have to make the decision between +str to wield that weapon and +dmg you may be able to wear otherwise.  A smart player will optimize based on what gives the most damage overall, possibly what is easiest to reload, and if one path benefits other clan mates (maybe you lose a damage but clanmate always on gets that gear so net for group is an increase in damage).
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Zozen on December 17, 2015, 03:26:37 PM
Before they would need +5-7 str to max out or less to wield those weapons. Now they need +10-12.... Not sure you comprehend what that means.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Valenore on December 17, 2015, 04:35:07 PM
Before they would need +5-7 str to max out or less to wield those weapons. Now they need +10-12.... Not sure you comprehend what that means.

Reread what I wrote.  The comprehension issue seems to be on your side since your statement is irrelevant to what I said.  Given an option between +str, better primary, and less +dmg gear and less strength, worse primary, but more +dmg gear there 2nd grade math will allow you to arrive at the optimal configuration of gear.  This is true before and after the change. 

If that idea escapes you, I doubt any further detail on my part will help. 
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Rednax on December 17, 2015, 06:17:25 PM
I think what he means to say is the str required to wield a heavy prim could easily be gained without having to sacrifice so much dam in other places. Throw two +2 str items on an old mino and he'd have 27-28ish str just like that. Meanwhile with the str rolls capping out at around 18-19 now you're gonna need 10 str to hit 28 str which is at least 3-5 items. There's a lot of lost dam there.

an option between +str, better primary, and less +dmg gear and less strength, worse primary, but more +dmg gear

My takeaway from this:
In the old system, a geared char would only need a select few str items to get to 28 str. He'd be able to wield a 28 prim. The rest of those slots could be filled with dam.
In the new system, a geared char is going to need lots more str items to get to 28 str. He'd have to sacrifice some of the dam from those other slots just to get enough str to wield his prim.

Plus there's going to be more competition for +stat gear. You may need to sacrifice even more to get your desired str as some of the +2 and other items are gobbled up by other players.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Chisul on December 17, 2015, 08:00:12 PM
Let's not forget the cheap and dirty Stat ranks. Players may need to choose ranks to offset the change in stat or damage. In my experience, the most game breakI g chars are achieved through rank purchases...especially legend ranks. I think this change may mean the end of +900H tanks, obliterating bursts, steelskin everything, and casters that never have to worry about mem times. One tick out of combat and most legendary casters are full str. Not that I feel the game needs more mem time, but watching a caster drop thousands of damage then recup it all with no penalty (ie having to rest and mem) is disgusting.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Malaki on December 18, 2015, 03:09:02 AM
So like maybe they just wanted every other char to be like mages with the casting level thing.  Except with like stats, you know.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: gnua on December 18, 2015, 09:58:04 AM
So like maybe they just wanted every other char to be like mages with the casting level thing.  Except with like stats, you know.

a level 24 naked mage with no prer can solo pop +9 cl fairly easily just by doing a bottom tier book run. i dont think an unprepped, naked level 24 character can solo pop +9 stats.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: ferum on December 21, 2015, 12:48:37 AM
My human warrior's stat with primary STR picked at creation.

Str: 16 Int: 13 Wis: 13 Dex: 17 Con: 16 Cha: 14

The str is rather sad.... but is rush char and is level 30 now.

Created another human just to check the stats, got a 18 str human warrior without picking a primary stat. Goes to show my wipe char is broken T_T
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Hoodoo on December 21, 2015, 05:02:50 AM
My paladin's stats, due to the bug, are permanently bapted to the point where I simply lie.  A lot.

So, I rolled straight 19s. 

Yes, the imms still need to apply a fix to those who 30/legend characters created prior to the stat fix.  No, this will not change regardless of how often the imms say it's not feasible:  manually applying a fix *is* feasible when requested, and if you make people legend a character with stats similar to the above post, motherbapter, we earned it. :)

Jason
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: zaxx on December 21, 2015, 06:14:02 AM
My human warrior's stat with primary STR picked at creation.

Str: 16 Int: 13 Wis: 13 Dex: 17 Con: 16 Cha: 14


hey, it's decent, look what I've got - Str: 16 Int: 13 Wis: 13 Dex: 15 Con: 14 Cha: 16
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: RichE on December 28, 2015, 07:29:49 PM
Just wanna say how stupid this stat change was and serves no purpose what so ever.  The low stat makes characters basically unplayable, you have to grind out to legend just to make a playable exotic character with stats that we are all used to playing, oh also you get +dam / lim dam or svs, wtf.  Who thought this was even remotely a good idea?
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: blackmagus on December 28, 2015, 09:42:04 PM
People wanted a challenge, this has created not only that, but rewards for persistent play and for zoning.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: snax on December 29, 2015, 01:47:04 PM
Yes, the imms still need to apply a fix to those who 30/legend characters created prior to the stat fix.  No, this will not change regardless of how often the imms say it's not feasible:  manually applying a fix *is* feasible when requested, and if you make people legend a character with stats similar to the above post, motherbapter, we earned it. :)

Jason

Haha!  Good Luck getting your son Hoss to clean his bedroom.  Maybe after that and after he sets the table he'll manually apply a fix (appears you requested).  I think there was some wierd delete button that fixes broken data.  Then there's this healing phase where you get to become legend again after a 160million xp cooldown.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Jorake on December 29, 2015, 02:01:36 PM
I thought the point of lowering stats so much was so you could add stats to a ton of eq? To balance things out a bit. Did this go in and I'm just not seeing it or what? Also. The first round of stats were just lame, the revamp of stats was a better. I'd take it like 10% higher than that though. I rolled about 120 x for a dk. Couldn't get over 17str 14 17 14 17 16. And that wasn't horrible honestly.

If the reason behind lowering stats was to tone things down at all levels, did it work for legend? Or do legends still steamroll everything?
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: mpriki on January 04, 2016, 07:27:49 AM
I like that stat change
+stat items/ranks will have a use now
ppl wont be able to be +15 dmg now and bash-triple oblit insta pk
and ppl who fail spells buy +learn +int ranks untill you spell up.

i am happy to see you all whine again.
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Gramm on January 08, 2016, 03:35:59 PM
die mpriki
Title: Re: A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.
Post by: Valenore on January 09, 2016, 07:05:49 AM
I like that stat change
+stat items/ranks will have a use now
ppl wont be able to be +15 dmg now and bash-triple oblit insta pk

If you are able to be +15 dmg  you are going to be +15 dmg.  I don't think are a lot of players thinking "it would be nice to be +15 dmg but I am not cool unless I have a 28 str". 

Quote
and ppl who fail spells buy +learn +int ranks untill you spell up.

So that reduces the stat change to a coin sink for casters?  What is the purpose of that?