Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => Game Ideas => Topic started by: corey on August 28, 2021, 03:53:15 PM

Title: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: corey on August 28, 2021, 03:53:15 PM
I'll be updating this thread with my opinion on the state of the Shaman class.

Please provide feedback either on these points or of your own. I'll be updating the main post periodically so come back a few times to make sure you don't miss anything.

Issue #1
Spirits are way too strong. They're about as strong as pre-nerf cleric animates with weapons. They don't hit quite as hard, but there's more of them. I regularly have 4 spirits that are all double annihilating.

Suggestion

Issue #2
Pre-legend, Shaman are still too weak for healing when compared to clerics. Even with the changes this wipe, they can't compete early game until they get healing wave and progress to legendary.

Suggestion

Issue 3
Nap is a cool spell on paper but it's pretty bad in practise, as much as I want it to be great.

Suggestion

Issue 4
Boiling blood duration is really, really short. Shaman have a ton of buff spells and it's annoying to have to recast it all the time.

Suggestion

Issue 5
Ghostmaster ritual. No inherent issue with the spell, but it's loved and begged for by group members constantly.

Suggestion
In the current direction of the game of making things more player friendly, it would be cool if GM could teach all classes.

Issue 6
Ritual voyage feels like I'm playing an immortal character and cheating. It's grossly unfair in its current state.

Suggestion
Title: Re: Shaman Wipe Suggestions
Post by: corey on August 28, 2021, 04:07:54 PM
Accidentally quoted instead of modified... oops.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: Malthros on August 28, 2021, 11:12:04 PM
Suggestion
  • A new spell, "mend wounds" is added. This spell replaces cure serious. This spell would heal for the same amount as cure serious, but would have the additional effect of ending regenerate on the target, and increasing the base healing by the entirety of a regenerate spell. This spell would best be used when a regenerate spell were about to fall off. This spell would not heal the extra "remaining" regenerate amount, but the entirety of a spell.

This spell would effectively give (legend) shamans the Heal spell at a lower circle than Heal.  If regen is hitting someone for 100-150 a round for 6 rounds that's going to top off a tank in most situations and full heal any non tank class and completely overshadow Cure Massive as well, while being at a much lower circle.  Even if you stuck this on Cyan and Blazewight it'd be overpowered.  Even for non-legend shamans it'd be on par with if not better than Cure Massive.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: corey on August 29, 2021, 01:07:24 AM
Suggestion
  • A new spell, "mend wounds" is added. This spell replaces cure serious. This spell would heal for the same amount as cure serious, but would have the additional effect of ending regenerate on the target, and increasing the base healing by the entirety of a regenerate spell. This spell would best be used when a regenerate spell were about to fall off. This spell would not heal the extra "remaining" regenerate amount, but the entirety of a spell.

This spell would effectively give (legend) shamans the Heal spell at a lower circle than Heal.  If regen is hitting someone for 100-150 a round for 6 rounds that's going to top off a tank in most situations and full heal any non tank class and completely overshadow Cure Massive as well, while being at a much lower circle.  Even if you stuck this on Cyan and Blazewight it'd be overpowered.  Even for non-legend shamans it'd be on par with if not better than Cure Massive.

Makes sense/fair judgment. I was trying to envision something I wouldn't bother casting at legend, but I think you're right. The only difference is that it would take two casts, not one.

What if you also included "reduces effectiveness of your healing spells to the target by x% for y rounds.
Or legend regen once again replaces this new spell with cure serious.
Or there's a healing cap on his spell.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: Hoodoo on August 29, 2021, 02:50:39 PM
Made similar points in clan discord earlier in wipe.

My clan shamans were less than pleased.

Absolutely agree, especially about the damage output of one of the two primary healers in game.

It should likely be lower. By a lot.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: Jorake on August 31, 2021, 11:14:17 AM
As someone who has a legend shaman every wipe since they went in except this one.

I would not ditch spirits. I wouldn't even debuff them. They are fine as is. Legend shaman is so much work that they become a nice reward. The issue I've always seen with shamans, even prelegend is they are way to strong at healing. Clerics get pushed to the side when wave, cloud comes into play. I would like to see shamans get a huge nerf to healing. The only class that should be healing bigger damage fights is clerics. All others need and should be in a support roll. I can solo heal so many zones before legend on a shaman, IF I have all the spells.

Everything else is good IMO after you nerf the healing.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: corey on August 31, 2021, 03:11:06 PM
As someone who has a legend shaman every wipe since they went in except this one.

I would not ditch spirits. I wouldn't even debuff them. They are fine as is. Legend shaman is so much work that they become a nice reward. The issue I've always seen with shamans, even prelegend is they are way to strong at healing. Clerics get pushed to the side when wave, cloud comes into play. I would like to see shamans get a huge nerf to healing. The only class that should be healing bigger damage fights is clerics. All others need and should be in a support roll. I can solo heal so many zones before legend on a shaman, IF I have all the spells.

Everything else is good IMO after you nerf the healing.

I have the opposite experience. Perhaps we need others to weigh in with completely neutral opinions.

I deal 2x oblit followed by 6-8 annihilates from spirits every round. I shouldn't be able to do that.

As for the healing, it's hard to tell now, but I recall not being able to outheal simple damage early wipe with regen. Heal is very dominant at that point.

Also, our clan has always predominantly used clerics and we don't see them disappearing from the roster either.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: reed23 on August 31, 2021, 03:14:09 PM
Agree on Ghostmaster Ritual, would be awesome.
Agree on Ritual Voyage. 
Spirits - while many charmies in the game are OP, it sure makes the little guy do a lot more with less.  If you want to just do your own thing in a 2 man, having spirits or animates really opens up the game.  Sure, they are OP, but so are a lot of things so i personally would leave as is to not rain on 2-4 man parades.
Agreed that pre-legend shaman's healing is pretty weak, but i think that is where should be.  With the frenzy buff, shaman's can still DPS very well and fill a support healing role.  Giving them additional curing spells would really phase out clerics.  Cleric's #1 use is healing until other classes reach legend.
Please reverse the hoss-nerf on dragon orb not allowing you to ritual voyage.  That also goes for read magic, wall of force, etc. :)
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: corey on August 31, 2021, 03:37:26 PM
Agree on Ghostmaster Ritual, would be awesome.
Agree on Ritual Voyage. 
Spirits - while many charmies in the game are OP, it sure makes the little guy do a lot more with less.  If you want to just do your own thing in a 2 man, having spirits or animates really opens up the game.  Sure, they are OP, but so are a lot of things so i personally would leave as is to not rain on 2-4 man parades.
Agreed that pre-legend shaman's healing is pretty weak, but i think that is where should be.  With the frenzy buff, shaman's can still DPS very well and fill a support healing role.  Giving them additional curing spells would really phase out clerics.  Cleric's #1 use is healing until other classes reach legend.
Please reverse the hoss-nerf on dragon orb not allowing you to ritual voyage.  That also goes for read magic, wall of force, etc. :)

While there has to be flavour, I don't think it's fair to rely on imbalance. I don't think it's right that people only see clerics useful at the start of wipe, and I don't think it's right that any one class should have such a strength later in the wipe.

You should be able to play your chosen class within a somewhat narrow tolerance of any other for its role, while still harnessing flavour, right? Am I crazy?
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: Willoe on August 31, 2021, 04:33:00 PM
Stop the nerfs, make the content harder. Game is way too easy with ranks/legendaries(not just Shamans).
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: mlengle on August 31, 2021, 04:40:17 PM
Sham's healing was clearly deficient prev.wipe before legend, this wipe it's sufficient in the most cases. If we do want to make elite shamans heal even better it should be done through some spirit manipulation (so, 'healing done/healing factor' buffs from bound spirits should be increased and visible in affects) or elite eq (btw, I find very annoying that it's impossible to find sensible equivalent to macabre set in terms of healing done). Usual Clerics are better than non-legend Shams, but lose to Legend Shams and Legend Clerics are buff again, looks fine. 
Spirits damage should stay where it is now, finding right spirits takes time and they don't live that long.

About transmogrify awkwardness, I already submitted the idea about bind skill at (superb) should not require the spirit to be controlled, it will reduce micromanagement such as when to bind fresh spirit you need to get rid of an existing controlled spirit, control, bind and then have one spirit less, also it's more inline with absorb/channel and also blends well with transmogrify. Also transmogrify will look pretty good as a skill instead of the spell, gaining more features while progressing (merging more spirits/giving better mob skills/creating tougher charmies/etc) and offering good space for exploration. I suppose this skill should be the legend requirement instead of taunt.

Another thing I'd like to see fixed is absorbed skills lifetime. AT LEAST absorb skill cool-down should be removed, none of the acquired skills are game changing comparing to druid/cleric legend abilities and most of them have their own cool downs.

I think I'd submitted the same idea about nap a month ago.
As for other spells, I think it's logical to have DETECT_ASTRAL effect on 'spectral sight' to brew it for your groupmates, maybe 'protection from undead' should become aura at 30lv (or we may need a sepate spell), and I'd like to see 'darkened soul' duration extended and the spell to be brewable, otherwise it's very underwhelming despite the high circle and being required for legend. 'ethereal path' is plain useless now as it was from the very introduction of  the shaman class. It should have effects similar to march skill whether you're flying or not. Something should be done about 'evil eye', it never lands in practice. And finally 'last chance' could be made aura (or maybe new aura spell introduced?) and/or its duration increased, cool down reduced, in its current form it's barely used.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: Lloth on September 02, 2021, 02:08:48 AM
The shaman class is very strong after legend. You are basically a wardancing barbarian with essentially animate and disrupting abilities in hex, stupefy and spook on top of that you have a super good single target and awesome AoE healing spell, both of which are cast and forget, allowing you to do other actions while still actively healing people.

Now, when you put all of those into the same class...well....they become crazy strong.

The shaman class is a good candidate for a "path" choice IMO.

Healing focus: they get cure massive, regen and helping wave. They do not get frenzy, stupefy, rotting flesh, transmogrify, boiling blood, darkened soul, twisted fate.  Can only equip one handers. They would still get their innate extra attack chance from natural weapons/ancestral blessing. Max spirits: 1 at lvls 1-25 and 2 25-30, 3 with legend control

Damage focus: they do NOT get healing wave, cure massive, omen. They do get frenzy, boiling blood, darkened soul, rotting flesh and either strike, assail or charge. Max spirits: just how it is now.

This is just a quick write up but I personally like gearing my characters to a very specific role. Maximum damage, maximum hp, maximum dmg reduction ect.  Having a choice and sort of a give/take type thing is something a lot of classes could benefit from.

I like the idea of some classes having different paths that would give them access to other classes skills/spells.

Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: steve d on September 02, 2021, 05:22:52 AM
just to offer another pov -
my spirits hit once each for 3 hits of either very or extremely hard and my regenerate heals for about 50 per round over 6 rounds.  thats a heal of up to 300 hp.  i havent found where healing wave loads yet but it sounds pretty strong.  i do like stupify.  extremely nice against casters.  and i can hit much like a barbarian although im pretty squishy.  i do have ritual voyage and its amazing.  my favorite spell in the game.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: Gnua on September 08, 2021, 08:35:27 PM
corey seems to be suggesting shamans should be doing less damage (spirit nerfs) and more cures (mend wounds)
others seem to think that shaman is already the #1 cures when the cleric should be the main cures of a group.

it isnt clear which niche the shaman "should" be playing.

how about we:
 - delete shamans
 - give clerics regenerate and healing wave and ghostberries ghostskin etharmor soulprot lastchance
 - give druids ghostmaster and control spirits, boiling blood, nap, twisted fate, omen, heal boost, ancestral blessing
 - give sky scouts ritual voyage and cure critical and bone shape
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: Gnua on September 08, 2021, 08:59:36 PM
Everything else is good IMO after you nerf the healing.

The main reason I play shaman is because I consider them the top-tier cures after legend. One could argue that role should fall to the clerics.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: reed23 on September 08, 2021, 11:15:28 PM
The buff to healing mist made clerics much more viable.  But in my opinion, if you want clerics to be the #1 healing class, healing mist needs a further buff relative to healing cloud and healing wave.  End game isn't about direct healing, it is how you can AoE heal.  And currently, druids/shamans are better than clerics.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: gulca on September 15, 2021, 12:39:21 AM
I think preventing corpses and spirits from heals and cures will balance out the power scale.

The limit of spirits and corpses should be level cap and shouldnt be limited to only certain mobs. For example, a level 30 cleric can have access up to 60 level of corpses. Get 2 level 30 corpses or 15 level 4 corpses at any single time. Legend animate adds another 30.

You kill any mob. You get access to the spirit and you should also be able to animate it. The initial hp of the spirits and corpse will be random.

But without ability to cure them back, they are more fragile in terms of having to keep getting new corpses and spirits when they are worn away in area fights.

Why do healers need to be the best in healing? I don’t quite get it.

But if you want cleric to beat other classes in healing, make the following changes
1. All cures have chance to double cure
2. Heal with chance to hero
3. Healing mist drop to 3rd circle. Cure lights stackable. Mist cures everything in room.
4. New spell to replace 8th slot water to healing potion. All water containers in the same group of caster become healing potion and last for a tick. They can drink up to get heal. After the tick is over, the liquid changes back to water.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: Gnua on September 15, 2021, 03:26:43 PM
Why do healers need to be the best in healing? I don’t quite get it.

why should bashers be best at bashing?
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: mpriki on September 21, 2021, 08:39:33 AM
I consider my self as an experienced shaman
Playing since they came out shamans. totally focused on shamans

At corey spirits cant annihilate under normal conditions, if u prim fury, bash, etc on trash mobs then yes, corpses and mage charmies do oblits

Shaman can heal but cant save lives like cleric does. On critical moments cleric is needed , most trash healing a shaman yes can handle , better than a cleric or a drood, btw cultivate is a great spell.

Use cure critical and consider invest on some healing done ranks and equipment.

U guys forget that shamans have the lower hp pool in game and shamans need every single stat , too much effort at least they do some dmg

Shamans are so much buff dependant dispell/steal buffs and reconsider the dmg or healing they do. Buffs makes shamans great.

About changes on shamans imo remove legend ghostskin and control , replace them with a rank that make him a curse master and legend transmogrify something like when duration ends they become normal spirits again.
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: corey on September 22, 2021, 12:16:12 AM
I consider my self as an experienced shaman
Playing since they came out shamans. totally focused on shamans

At corey spirits cant annihilate under normal conditions, if u prim fury, bash, etc on trash mobs then yes, corpses and mage charmies do oblits

Shaman can heal but cant save lives like cleric does. On critical moments cleric is needed , most trash healing a shaman yes can handle , better than a cleric or a drood, btw cultivate is a great spell.

Use cure critical and consider invest on some healing done ranks and equipment.

U guys forget that shamans have the lower hp pool in game and shamans need every single stat , too much effort at least they do some dmg

Shamans are so much buff dependant dispell/steal buffs and reconsider the dmg or healing they do. Buffs makes shamans great.

About changes on shamans imo remove legend ghostskin and control , replace them with a rank that make him a curse master and legend transmogrify something like when duration ends they become normal spirits again.

You just need better spirits I guess. I can log in and have 4x standing annihilate massacre spirits in less than five minutes from multiple different places. Double that damage with ghost dance
Title: Re: Shaman Suggestions
Post by: mpriki on September 22, 2021, 05:40:36 AM
I dont know what kind of spirits you find , never payed attention to that , usually i use any spirits available on my way but in my mind i see hits from very hard to massacre with an average of extremely hard which is very ok to me. Never seen annihilate

Need to check logs to see if thats true.