Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: mikey on February 27, 2021, 05:26:45 PM

Title: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: mikey on February 27, 2021, 05:26:45 PM
I don't want to get abyssed for chaining a couple spells together or my disarm trigger (yes trigger, i'm sorry) going off.  I honestly can't imagine going back to pushing "group" manually every round :(
Surely I can't be the only one?

Please re-think/work some of these changes.  There has got to be a better way to catch bots than reverting us back to the days of telnet.  Pretty please?
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Zozen on February 27, 2021, 08:10:49 PM
I chain a lot of commands in aliases and have a few triggers but to say I am a bot on either char would be a big stretch. I couldn't even figure out tic timer very well before (thank you for making that an in game feature.) If I were to get abyssed for how I am playing them then we need to go back to a 1 char limit.  I do think there needs to be a bit more clarity. Pk/Autoassist/rescue/heal triggers have also been around since the 90s. Are we saying these aren't allowed as well? If it is people not being at the keyboard and doing zoning with clan by triggers then that's a whole different issue..?
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: el conquistador on February 27, 2021, 08:48:23 PM
I chain a lot of commands in aliases and have a few triggers but to say I am a bot on either char would be a big stretch. I couldn't even figure out tic timer very well before (thank you for making that an in game feature.) If I were to get abyssed for how I am playing them then we need to go back to a 1 char limit.  I do think there needs to be a bit more clarity. Pk/Autoassist/rescue/heal triggers have also been around since the 90s. Are we saying these aren't allowed as well? If it is people not being at the keyboard and doing zoning with clan by triggers then that's a whole different issue..?

pretty sure autoassist, rescue, and heal triggers have been against the rules for quite a while.  just not really enforced.  i did not know linking commands was against the rules though.  that kind of sucks.

the news seems to be a notification that they are going to start cracking down on this kind of thing, although i dont know the reason why.

Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Nasredin on February 27, 2021, 08:50:11 PM
A funny quote from the discussion in the russian arctic channel:
... I'm just curious to know what they (the authors of the rules update) think about the driverless cars ...
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Anista on February 27, 2021, 10:10:38 PM
I don't want to get abyssed for chaining a couple spells together or my disarm trigger (yes trigger, i'm sorry) going off.  I honestly can't imagine going back to pushing "group" manually every round :(
Surely I can't be the only one?

Please re-think/work some of these changes.  There has got to be a better way to catch bots than reverting us back to the days of telnet.  Pretty please?
With the exception of minor clarifications, the rules have not been modified in a couple wipes. There are no real 'changes' that have been made.

Aliases with "chained commands" are generally fine as long as they are not completing multiple elements (fights) in a zone. Stacked skilling aliases and/or speedwalks are typically fine. From HELP RULES for aliases:
Code: [Select]
    ALIASES:

    There are many different types of aliases in use by players. Most of
    which are acceptable, as long as they are not performing numerous
    strings of combat-related actions. As an example, an alias for
    "c 'magic missile'" set to "mm" is an acceptable, basic form. Aliases
    which perform multiple combat actions, such as killing multiple mobs
    are forbidden.  Aliases which may "buff up" your character out of
    combat, interact with multiple objects in your inventory, short
    training sequences, etc. are acceptable.

    Aliases that allow "speedwalking" are acceptable as long as they are
    used for travel, not combat or quests; these speedwalks may include the
    opening of doors/gates/et alia. "SPEED WALK" aliases that complete
    major portions of a zone are considered illegal.

    Use of 'keyword busting' aliases/triggers/code, or any measure intended
    to abuse game mechanics, are strictly against the rules.

    MACROS:

    Macros follow the same rules as aliases.

Clients have plenty of options to help see disarms, such as highlights, echos/substitutions, and playing of sounds. Feel free to 'thwack' yourself, or use a 'gt' trigger off disarms to notify you or your groupmates; these are not triggers performing combat or interacting with anything.

Possibly consider some advanced setup to track & loot your disarmed weapon... This can even be expanded to apply envenom and whatever else you may like.:
Code: [Select]
#act {^You are using:} {#var outputtingeq 1}
#act {%0H %1v %2X} {#var outputtingeq 0}
#act {^<used in (?:both|primary) hand(?:s|)>     (?:.*|)(sword|axe|whip|club|hammer|staff|cudgel|tooth|dagger|blade|cleaver|falchion)} {#if {$outputtingeq == 1} {#var prim $1}}
#alias imlazy {get $prim;wield $prim}
#alias wield {wiel %0;#var prim %0)
(Example from Kafilat)
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Anista on February 27, 2021, 10:12:27 PM
I chain a lot of commands in aliases and have a few triggers but to say I am a bot on either char would be a big stretch. I couldn't even figure out tic timer very well before (thank you for making that an in game feature.) If I were to get abyssed for how I am playing them then we need to go back to a 1 char limit.  I do think there needs to be a bit more clarity. Pk/Autoassist/rescue/heal triggers have also been around since the 90s. Are we saying these aren't allowed as well? If it is people not being at the keyboard and doing zoning with clan by triggers then that's a whole different issue..?

pretty sure autoassist, rescue, and heal triggers have been against the rules for quite a while.  just not really enforced.  i did not know linking commands was against the rules though.  that kind of sucks.

the news seems to be a notification that they are going to start cracking down on this kind of thing, although i dont know the reason why.
All points [mostly] correct, except for "linking commands" is generally fine.

A good, real case example to consider is this:
If a character is AFK on a road and attacked by another player, or any mob, the AFK character(s) should not do any combat action; even if they are (in theory) bruised from perfect health to dead, there should be no combat actions occurring without the player performing them. (Actions can be typing, macro, alias, speech-to-text or whatever else, but the actions should be performed by the player.) If a client configuration cannot pass this check then it probably fails.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Gnua on February 28, 2021, 01:57:33 AM
My personal guidelines to myself (use at your own risk)

- if it is an alias it is probably ok (there are some aliases that are not ok but if you know how to make an alias that is not ok then you have nothing to learn from reading this)
- if it is a trigger that sends info to you (highlights, system noises) it is ok
- if it is a trigger that sends commands to the mud, consult the list of acceptable commands to send to mud (autoloot, autosplit, autostand, autoeat, autodrink)
- if it is a trigger that sends commands to the mud and is not on the list of acceptable commands (wield after disarm, autorescue, autoheal), presume it is not ok unless you hear otherwise
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Jorake on March 01, 2021, 01:06:25 AM
Opt wimpy and flee yourself to safety!
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: blackmagus on March 01, 2021, 02:11:36 AM
I don't want to get abyssed for chaining a couple spells together or my disarm trigger (yes trigger, i'm sorry) going off.  I honestly can't imagine going back to pushing "group" manually every round :(
Surely I can't be the only one?

Please re-think/work some of these changes.  There has got to be a better way to catch bots than reverting us back to the days of telnet.  Pretty please?

If you can't play two characters without illegal triggers and scripting, then don't play two characters, it's as simple as that. Lot's of people are making use of split screen or alt-tabbing without needing to resort to a scripting handicap. Others don't need to change to help you play..
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Hoodoo on March 01, 2021, 08:13:38 AM
I have to agree with blackmagus, here.  When the 2 character allowance was added, I tried to figure out how to do it under the rules.. i.e. not excessively scripted.  I kept dying when I tried alt-tabbing, and I'm not much of a coder, so I ended up on split-screen.  As I was struggling through this, I watched others casually play 2 with seemingly little effort, and thought.. well, I guess I'm just bad at this. :)

Turns out, if you rescue-script, skill-script, have enough conditional triggers, and are possessed of a casual disregard of how the rules read, you can just sit in one window and ignore the other.  Certain classes are easy for this (mountain scout, I'm looking at you, but as you're a completely scripted class, you won't notice.)  Others require a bit more effort to do properly but are easy to do at a somewhat less effective level.  Regardless, I believe it was Oligo who showed what a skilled coder can do client-side when he botted an 8man some years ago.

Now, certain parts of the current policy, I feel are overshoots (disarm triggers?).  However, I have to wholeheartedly support the ideas behind the policy, and if I had to pick, I'd still rather the imms go too hard on this issue if they have to err one way or another, as the last few wipes have largely incentivized certain 'accepted' types of cheating, such as trigger-skilling certain skills hated by all. 

No matter who you are, how long you've played, or how knowledgable you may be, nobody is owed a legend. If you want the juice, put in the squeeze.

Jason
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: gulca on March 02, 2021, 12:10:24 AM
A funny quote from the discussion in the russian arctic channel:
... I'm just curious to know what they (the authors of the rules update) think about the driverless cars ...

Future and past mentality.

One would thought that a fully customizable botting ai script to a game for the players would be a great selling point to new players. Let your kids learn how to script ai and have fun at the same time.

No, you need to type everything and sit at your computer and look at the screen and read every scrolling lines. Sell that to kids who have no more than 30 sec attention span.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Gnua on March 02, 2021, 01:14:04 AM
If you can't play two characters without illegal triggers and scripting, then don't play two characters, it's as simple as that. Lot's of people are making use of split screen or alt-tabbing without needing to resort to a scripting handicap. Others don't need to change to help you play..

What about the people who can't even play one character without using disarm triggers or skill training triggers or rescue triggers or triggers to eat and drink every ten minutes while they wear off a haste flag or a moc flag?  should they play zero characters?
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Nasredin on March 02, 2021, 10:35:51 AM
if I had to pick, I'd still rather the imms go too hard on this issue if they have to err one way or another,
as the last few wipes have largely incentivized certain 'accepted' types of cheating, such as trigger-skilling certain skills hated by all. 
<...> If you want the juice, put in the squeeze.

Certainly, the principal part of the line above is hated by all. Yet my approach to such situations is 'let's fix it this way or that to reduce suffering; change the rules, if it helps', while your approach is 'I suffer from it and some cheaters don't - please enforce the ancient rules harshly and make sure everyone gets their share of the suffering!'


If a certain game feature (e.g. a skill) is so poorly designed that it isn't used in normal playing, or it's a pain to use/train it, the best way to deal with the situation is to re-implement it in a more reasonable way. As an example, the way melee is implemented in Arctic is certainly an example of botting (and that on the server side!) - in a real hardcore text game you should type 'swing sword' every combat round manually. Or even twice per round, if you're dbl-wielding! Or thrice, if dbl-wielding and hasted...


Unfortunately, we don't have a staff of salaried developers, and the volunteers who keep the game running may spend their limited personal time improving the game elsewhere. "Botting" is actually allowing the players to fix and automate in their clients the boring, tedious parts of the game that the coders didn't fix on the server side (yet).


As to the juice and the squeeze, most of us already got a place where they can perform some monotonous, grunt work for a fair compensation. It's called a job! And no, I don't want a game that feels like a job.


Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Hoodoo on March 02, 2021, 01:55:50 PM
Nasredin, I am all for a more logical interpretation of the brew/scribe/etc training grind. I've hand trained somewhere around 8-10 legend mages since robes came in? 

However, until such time as that happens, yes, everyone needs to suffer the same to get the same reward. Just because you're willing to cheat, doesn't mean you should get rewarded. Others don't.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Gnua on March 02, 2021, 03:08:14 PM
Nasredin, I am all for a more logical interpretation of the brew/scribe/etc training grind. I've hand trained somewhere around 8-10 legend mages since robes came in? 

However, until such time as that happens, yes, everyone needs to suffer the same to get the same reward. Just because you're willing to cheat, doesn't mean you should get rewarded. Others don't.

Are you saying that if you dont bot but get second hand rewards (gear/spells) from your clannies who do, they should be punished but you should not? According to the rules that you wish to see enforced, if you regularly group with a botter you are liable for the same punishment.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Hoodoo on March 02, 2021, 03:22:11 PM
You're correct. That being said, my clan has never had extensive issues in that regard, when one looks at combat botting. A couple characters were somewhat automated, but no heal scripts, minimal rescue assistance by trigger, etc.   Given the previously accepted standards as observed by enforcement, we were middle of the road at our worst.

I have previously ruined my clan's zoning for a fair portion of a wipe by reporting our best clan leader for perpetually 2manning with his 'brother', actually his ocean scout bot, during a wipe where it was most definitely illegal to do so. I'm the wrong guy at whom you might wish to toss those accusations: I lost a wipe to the aftermath of that principled decision.

In regards to somehow trying to police brew/scribe botting in my clan... are you bapting serious? I mean, I'm known as an occasionally intense asshole at my worst, but even I'm not that guy, and I shouldn't be expected to be.

I can control my actions. I chose to do so.   I gave up trying to control the actions of others some time ago.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Gnua on March 02, 2021, 05:03:13 PM
In regards to somehow trying to police brew/scribe botting in my clan... are you bapting serious? I mean, I'm known as an occasionally intense asshole at my worst, but even I'm not that guy, and I shouldn't be expected to be.

I can control my actions. I chose to do so.   I gave up trying to control the actions of others some time ago.

As far as I understand the rules: if your clannies and/or regular groupmates are botting you are supposed to stop zoning with them or face punishment as well.

From the rules you wish to see enforced:
Quote
Any group of players associated with the use of 'bots' could suffer penalties for the knowing presence of a 'bot' in the group Penalties begin at 1 month in the abyss. Group leaders should be careful about the players they invite to group
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Hoodoo on March 02, 2021, 05:38:19 PM
And as that is now the currently enforced standard, it is what I expect from Myth. Prior to the recent clarification, and per the previously enforced standards, Myth was along the expected norms.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Gnua on March 02, 2021, 05:55:16 PM
I spent about 4 hours making my scripts compliant with the "dont fight back if you are afk" rule. I'm quite pleased with the results and enjoyed myself thoroughly. Kylie Minogue was also kind enough to summarize my experience.

Quote
Come on everybody stop your bots in motion. Come on everybody, why the big commotion?
There's never been a skill that's not easy to train. You can even make it legal if you just use your brain.
So come on, come on, brew another potion with me
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Hoodoo on March 02, 2021, 06:06:15 PM
I think that's how one describes pain in Australian.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: blackmagus on March 02, 2021, 09:28:47 PM
What about the people who can't even play one character without using disarm triggers or skill training triggers or rescue triggers or triggers to eat and drink every ten minutes while they wear off a haste flag or a moc flag?  should they play zero characters?

That is correct. Look, let's not pretend this is a Title IX argument and we're trying to make sure that everyone has equal access. This is a game where it's plainly delineated as to what is and isn't allowed in terms of automation and if you're unable to function within the rules, moving back to Candy Crush is probably your best course of action.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Anista on March 03, 2021, 03:34:29 AM
The staff has already been discussing ways to improve the mundane skilling system for next wipe, or at least make it less of an obstacle. We have some ideas, but nothing concrete. Yes, wipe planning ideas are already in the works, many months away!
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Gnua on March 03, 2021, 02:44:48 PM
The staff has already been discussing ways to improve the mundane skilling system for next wipe, or at least make it less of an obstacle. We have some ideas, but nothing concrete. Yes, wipe planning ideas are already in the works, many months away!

Looking forward to the changes
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: SArT on April 28, 2021, 01:06:50 AM
Sorry.. been away for a while.

This is all very funny to read. We are all grown adults at this point and you are getting your butts spanked for being smart on a game...

The most fun I ever had on Arctic was writing scripts to auto run zones (could do dozens of zones and ranks on an auto rotation).. so much work and so many hours. I don't think that aspect of my game play ever negatively impacted any other players.

SArT
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Hoodoo on April 28, 2021, 05:52:42 AM
Start, I'm reasonably certain your well known scripting habits on thieves were a primary motivator in forcing the imms to nerf fade.

So... Some others may disagree in regards to whether or not you affected their gameplay with your "creative rules interpretation"...
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: dp on May 20, 2021, 07:25:03 PM
Reading this after a while, I'm surprised nobody discussed using a list and an alias:

#ACTION {disarms your weapon} {#showme DISARMED - PLEASE ENTER x; dolistadd get $weapon \r wield $weapon}
#ACTION {^Your casting is disrupted by the fighting!$} {#showme DISRUPTED - PLEASE ENTER x; dolistadd #send !}
#ALIAS {dolistadd} {#list {dolist} {insert} {1} {%0}}
#ALIAS {x} {$dolist[1]; #list {dolist} {delete} {1}}

Seems perfectly legal in view of this discussion- the mud is sending me information which does not cause my character to react.  Then I issue an alias 'x'.

This is 100% why any policing of this is dumb.  If the problem is botting, enforce against witnessed botting.  If the trouble is clients, ban clients.  If the rule is "don't do stuff we decide we don't like" make that clear instead of inventing other "rules" which don't provide any kind of safe harbor.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: el conquistador on May 20, 2021, 11:40:59 PM
Sorry.. been away for a while.

This is all very funny to read. We are all grown adults at this point and you are getting your butts spanked for being smart on a game...

The most fun I ever had on Arctic was writing scripts to auto run zones (could do dozens of zones and ranks on an auto rotation).. so much work and so many hours. I don't think that aspect of my game play ever negatively impacted any other players.

SArT

your bots autorunning zones definitely negatively impacted dozens of players as you were resetting ranks to .01
Title: Why do players say goodbye to Arctic?
Post by: anticorruption on May 23, 2021, 01:05:58 AM
so the previous post was closed to reply, obvious
look subject to find that.
So any old players do know how this game goes.
1) some players who know administration staff got game info and they do anything they want enjoying this game. no new players welcomed.
2) admin staff deleting posts of tru from this forum
3) admin staff has their own opinion. your opinion is definitely wrong and has to be deleted
4) if youre still playing this game then you accept rules above or you quit. your voice is nothing.
Title: Re: Anyone else scared to log with the new changes?
Post by: Malthros on June 15, 2021, 02:56:06 PM
Reading this after a while, I'm surprised nobody discussed using a list and an alias:

#ACTION {disarms your weapon} {#showme DISARMED - PLEASE ENTER x; dolistadd get $weapon \r wield $weapon}
#ACTION {^Your casting is disrupted by the fighting!$} {#showme DISRUPTED - PLEASE ENTER x; dolistadd #send !}
#ALIAS {dolistadd} {#list {dolist} {insert} {1} {%0}}
#ALIAS {x} {$dolist[1]; #list {dolist} {delete} {1}}

Seems perfectly legal in view of this discussion- the mud is sending me information which does not cause my character to react.  Then I issue an alias 'x'.

This is 100% why any policing of this is dumb.  If the problem is botting, enforce against witnessed botting.  If the trouble is clients, ban clients.  If the rule is "don't do stuff we decide we don't like" make that clear instead of inventing other "rules" which don't provide any kind of safe harbor.

I have this sort of setup for multiple functions.  Triggers that auto-set variables and you need to hit a button to make X or Y actually happen.  I think I've used a "get @prime;wield @prime" alias since college.