Arctic Mud

NEWS => Development News => Topic started by: adepali on June 20, 2019, 01:01:45 PM

Title: Reincarnation
Post by: adepali on June 20, 2019, 01:01:45 PM
Here's something I've been working on lately, please give me some feedback:

Characters at 1X with 15+ ranks can reincarnate up to 6 times.

Reincarnated characters:

- Go back to level 1
- Keep their name, clan, gender and alignment.
- Keep their guild and path (all classes, including paladins/dks)
- Keep all their equip, included vaulted equip.
- Keep all their spells, divine powers and pets. Spells can be cast only when their slot becomes available. Divine powers can be cast at level 25.
- Keep all their pets, along with their ranks. Can summon the pets only when they become available.
- Can change race. They also have access to exotic races (with normal class restrictions)
- All their skills are reset to 0, but levelling skills up to the previous max is much faster
- Can pick a single stat per reincarnation to get a permanent +2 bonus
- Gain 2 ranks per reincarnation, but have all their ranks reset and must buy again (including Arctic Legend). Rank progress is lost.
- Gain 20 mv per reincarnation
- Gain HP per reincarnation: tanks +15, thief/scout: +10, casters: +5
- Have spell failures and kill history reset
- Suffer a cumulative penalty to all exp gained per reincarnation. Not sure how much this should be, or if there should be any penalty at all.
- Have all their quests reset, except special quests such as the alchemy one

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Caine on June 20, 2019, 04:09:19 PM
My first instinct reading this was no. It sounds too complicated, though I might be misunderstanding the system you are proposing.

It sounds like, with the +2 rank gain from reincarnating, it would be worth delaying reincarnation until at the higher ranks to get the most benefit. Also, limiting characters to 6 race changes per life of their character seems a little arbitrary (but again, i might be misunderstanding the system).

If making ranks easier to acquire, or encouraging players to stick to a few, very strong characters instead of many decently strong ones is the goal here, I would propose a simpler system wih some ideas I have seen tossed around here before:

- Remove or increase the rank cap, and make ranks slightly easier to gain.
- Add a vendor or option somewhere (maybe the rank merchant) to pay coins to switch race.

As it is right now, almost nobody is going to buy a damage shield rank for 30rp. If you are a tank, it is basically out of the question, because you are going to need to spend at least 4 on legend and 15 on steelskin, leaving you with 31rp at most, and if you get a shield, you won't be able to get any legend ranks. In this new system, people might actually be able to make use of the shield ranks.

This could also work decently well at higher ranks since they are already inherently harder to obtain, which kind of goes in line with your idea of making subsequent reincarnations more challenging xp-wise.

Thoughts welcome.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Tajs on June 20, 2019, 11:13:04 PM
Interesting!! :)

I'd go for it

PS: Bring back +skills rank (other than legend ranks)
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Chisul on June 21, 2019, 03:52:36 AM
This sounds awesome.

Bring on the max con gully dwarf barbarians with 90 bonus H. Can you imagine the destruction a six reincarnated mountain scout would cause?

I'm assuming you get to keep instincts once they are gained?

Sounds super cool.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: blackmagus on June 21, 2019, 04:04:10 AM
Really interesting concept, somewhat similar to the old multi-classing. Well thought out.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Wendell on June 22, 2019, 04:23:42 AM
Commenting strictly on the reincarnation post, I dig it. My one concern would be, would the length of the wipe be increased as well?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Malthros on June 22, 2019, 05:06:42 PM
The idea sounds cool.  Some thoughts (some already mentioned):
- XP penalty could be fine but how would this work?  Reduce their max xp cap per level, a flat X% reduction per reincarnation, ore boost the XP they need to level rather than reducing the amount gained...etc.  I don't think an XP penalty's necessary but I can see where the idea's coming from.  I imagine a 6th reincarnation neutral character could hit legend before 1x though with that penalty.
- Reincarnations can reroll like normal I assume?  If not will they just have the max stats (+2 to selected ones) for their classes important attributes so that a person isn't at the mercy of RNG?
- changing race will likely force people to change alignment unless you only let them pick a race for their current align (IE:  someone leveled as a lawful good cleric and can't reincarnate as a theiwar).
- When you say 2 ranks do you mean RP or that they'd start at rank 2?  The former's amazing, the latter's a minor convenience.  If it's the latter give a rank xp gain bonus instead so the more you reincarnate the slower you level but the faster you rank.
- Have the score sheet include a line saying what bonus stat you picked for your reincarnation(s).
- Allow later reincarnations, or even just the final one, to pick something other than stats.  Health, Concentration, hitroll, damroll..etc.
- Slightly boost the skill level limit on each reincarnation?  So a warrior who reincarnated X times would have a better bash at superb than someone who just hit 30 for the first time.

e:
- Will you have to reroll your stats if you don't pick a new race or do will it just set you back to level 1 as-is?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Tajs on June 23, 2019, 05:46:39 PM
Should consider the xp penalty for neutrals, it's already quite a bit slower to xp neutrals compared to good/evil. Maybe lower penalty for neutrals?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Jorake on June 24, 2019, 01:17:30 AM
I guess I don't quite understand what is the point of this. I do appreciate the effort certainly. But it seems like the only gain is to make a new race? or to gain a few hps? Will this raise the amount of ranks we can get? Or.. Maybe i'm missing something! So you get +2 ranks for each reincarnation? So from 50 to 52 to 54 etc? Sounds like a crazy grind.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: blackmagus on June 24, 2019, 04:17:34 AM
You keep your prior progress, get additional stats and a small amount of +hp. It's not bad.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 24, 2019, 07:37:24 AM
Here's something I've been working on lately, please give me some feedback:
- Keep their name, clan, gender and alignment
- Gain 2 ranks per reincarnation, but have all their ranks reset and must buy again (including Arctic Legend). Rank Thoughts?

Overall a great idea.  given how easy it is to go from 1-3 compared to 41-43, then it seems everyone would need to delay most of their reincarnations until rank 40.  Perhaps we could have reincarnation points which could be spent on stuff like +v, imm_charm, imm_fear, auto_light, imm_blind, nightvision, detect invis.  might be nice to allow gender change.  after all it is 2019 and there seems to be no point in playing a male in arctic.  i've seen half a dozen pieces of female-only gear (much of it pretty nice) and no male-only gear. 

the skill retraining sounds like a major deterrent to reincarnating.  some skills are brutal to train and never get used after they get trained.  maybe we could purge the skills that people do not use after they train them.  solo skill training is detested and only endured because it opens up legendary.  the thought of voluntarily losing legendary and having to reskill seems like a bitter pill to swallow.  perhaps we could keep the legendary rank but lose all others upon reincarnation?  Or maybe the reincarnation process could be merged with the legendary process so that you reincarnate upon legendary (and become a level 1 legendary with a race/gender of your choice)

On second thought, if the skill training bonus is good enough, people might choose to reincarnate before legendary simply to speed up skilling. the race change makes me hopeful that i will get to play a kender paladin.  The hit point bonus concerns me as the power creep would bring the need to rebalance the mobs (like it did for legend and steelskin ranks).  quality of life such as +v, det invis, fly, det poison, det good, light, det evil, skill training bonus wont create power creep.  part of the reason people dont buy these ranks is because they compete with ranks that influence the outcome of a big fight. (steelskin, immblind, imm silence, nocharm, spellsaves, mindshield, imm heat, imm gas)

So to sum up, I really like the idea and propose two modifications:  reincarnation points instead of rank increase, allow people to keep the "turn your character into a legendary" rank upon reincarnation.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Jorake on June 24, 2019, 02:23:25 PM
So if I am rank 32 when i reincarnate, I then keep rank 32 but all my rank progress etc is reset and I have to buy all my ranks over again? My main question for that is; if I am level 1 and rank 32. Does ranking then become easier for lower levels?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Malthros on June 24, 2019, 06:47:59 PM
I read it as "you reincarnated at rank 32, you're now level 1 rank 1 (with 2 bonus RP?) and have to build back up from there.  Though it also means you're basically penalized for not reincarnating as soon as you're 1x so hopefully I'm wrong. 

Ideally it'd be "you reincarnated at rank X, you're level 1 and rank X with X+2 RP to spend" because then there's no penalty for reincarnating now or later.  It'd also mean a fully 6x reincarnated character could have 62rp if they hit rank 50 after their 6th reincarnation and if 62rp can result in a broken build of some kind that person earned it.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 24, 2019, 10:45:18 PM
Ideally it'd be "you reincarnated at rank X, you're level 1 and rank X with X+2 RP to spend" because then there's no penalty for reincarnating now or later.  It'd also mean a fully 6x reincarnated character could have 62rp if they hit rank 50 after their 6th reincarnation and if 62rp can result in a broken build of some kind that person earned it.

That sounds feasible if it actually works that way (much better than my idea of reincarnation points).  It could also fill out the void between level 28 and rank 25 when you have nothing to lookforward to and are seriously considering quitting arctic.  If you are 1x, rank 16 have your critical spells filled, you could then drop to level 1 and exotic yourself.  I'm still really keen on the reincarnation process not taking away the "arctic legendary" rank upon reincarnation.  Given the choice between my spellbook and the arctic legendary rank, i'd keep the legendary rank
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: adepali on June 25, 2019, 01:44:14 PM
Thank you for your feedback.
This is the current helpfile for my work in progress. Of course anything in here can change either before reincarnation becomes available or during playtesting.

Quote
REINCARNATION

Characters who have reached a high level of power can chose to reincarnate
and restart their life at level 1. To reincarnate, a character:

* Must be at the very end of level 30.
* Must have at least 15 ranks.

Reincarnated characters retain their name, gender, guild and alignment, but
can chose a new race, including exotic races. The new race must satisfy all
the normal restrictions of their guild and alignment. They also retain all
their money, equipment and pets; the pets themselves keep all their ranks.

Mages will retain their robe color, and will not need to retake the Test of
High Sorcery. Scouts, Paladins and Dark Knights will retain their path. All
characters will retain any progress towards quests.

Each character can reincarnate up to 6 times. With each reincarnation,
characters gain the following permanent bonuses:

* +2 bonus to a stat of their choice
* -1 bonus to SAVING_SPELL
* 2 ranks.
* 5-15 hit points, depending on their guild
* 20 movement points

Reincarnated characters have their skill points reset, and will need to
retrain them. Some memory of their previous expertise remains, so characters
will find that retraining skills will be much faster.

Spells, instincts and divine powers are a core part of a character's soul;
reincarnated characters will retain all their magical powers, but will need
to level up before they can use them.

All ranks, including Arctic Legend, will be reset and will need to be purchased
again. Legendary effects, skills and spells will be removed.

Each reincarnation will impose a penalty to all experience gained, so
characters will find it progressively harder to level.

Clarifications:

Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Patpat on June 25, 2019, 03:22:20 PM
Pretty neat idea. I really like the alternative paths of character advancement
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: jwhite on June 25, 2019, 06:02:34 PM
this sounds amazing!

leveling is always my favorite part of arctic anyway.  if i make it to 1x and legendary i lose a lot of motivation to play since my goals have been reached and progress feels extremely slow after that point. 

if this reincarnation is implemented it would give me so much more to work on.  it would be incredible
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Caine on June 25, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
The bonus ranks gained through reincarnation don't count towards the normal rank exp calculation or the normal rank cap.

I presume this still means we would need to reach rank 25 to legend? i.e. Rank 21 + 2 reincarnations wouldn't work?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: adepali on June 25, 2019, 07:19:59 PM
The reincarnation ranks are like normal ranks for buying effects, they are just not included in the rank exp calculation. So it doesn't make any difference if you reincarnate at rank 15 or at rank 25, you get two free ranks and you need the same rank exp for the next rank as before.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: SArT on June 25, 2019, 07:33:15 PM
Hey Xen

I really like the idea.

My only thought here is that it seems to be imbalanced slightly. If you have a buff pet that you get to keep you are much stronger and will level much faster than a class that has no pet.

I agree that legend status and legend ranks would have to go away. This is also about balancing. I have purposefully deleveled a legend thief to level 1 before just to see how fast I could get back to 1X. It is crazy easy and fast with the legend ranks.

SArT
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 25, 2019, 09:10:08 PM
Clarifications:
  • The bonus ranks gained through reincarnation don't count towards the normal rank exp calculation or the normal rank cap.
  • Reseting ranks, especially legendary ranks, seems to be the biggest complaint. I'm leaning towards keeping standard ranks and reseting legendary ones, but this is still open to debate.

Thanks for the clarification on the rank points.  I suspect that resetting the "turn your character into an arctic legend" rank will result in players doing all their reincarnating before legendary and thus either delaying legendary (which could increase time where there are lots of people on and clans are co-operating out of necessity) or skipping the reincarnation system altogether. 

I dont mind losing the standard ranks or the legendary-only ranks.  The rank I would be most keen on keeping would be the "turn your character into an arctic legend".  I also dont mind neglecting my skilling until all my reincarnations are done.

I wonder if +2 stat falls into the "degenerate power creep" category (like steelskin for tanks or spellsaves and mindshield for curers) which is so good that everybody has to get it and then the fights need to be rebalanced.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Malthros on June 25, 2019, 11:51:30 PM
Thank you for your feedback.
This is the current helpfile for my work in progress. Of course anything in here can change either before reincarnation becomes available or during playtesting.

Quote
REINCARNATION

Characters who have reached a high level of power can chose to reincarnate
and restart their life at level 1. To reincarnate, a character:

* Must be at the very end of level 30.
* Must have at least 15 ranks.

Reincarnated characters retain their name, gender, guild and alignment, but
can chose a new race, including exotic races. The new race must satisfy all
the normal restrictions of their guild and alignment. They also retain all
their money, equipment and pets; the pets themselves keep all their ranks.

Mages will retain their robe color, and will not need to retake the Test of
High Sorcery. Scouts, Paladins and Dark Knights will retain their path. All
characters will retain any progress towards quests.

Each character can reincarnate up to 6 times. With each reincarnation,
characters gain the following permanent bonuses:

* +2 bonus to a stat of their choice
* -1 bonus to SAVING_SPELL
* 2 ranks.
* 5-15 hit points, depending on their guild
* 20 movement points

Reincarnated characters have their skill points reset, and will need to
retrain them. Some memory of their previous expertise remains, so characters
will find that retraining skills will be much faster.

Spells, instincts and divine powers are a core part of a character's soul;
reincarnated characters will retain all their magical powers, but will need
to level up before they can use them.

All ranks, including Arctic Legend, will be reset and will need to be purchased
again. Legendary effects, skills and spells will be removed.

Each reincarnation will impose a penalty to all experience gained, so
characters will find it progressively harder to level.

Clarifications:

  • The bonus ranks gained through reincarnation don't count towards the normal rank exp calculation or the normal rank cap.
  • Reseting ranks, especially legendary ranks, seems to be the biggest complaint. I'm leaning towards keeping standard ranks and reseting legendary ones, but this is still open to debate.

Bonus ranks existing outside the normal system is perfect.  Doesn't get someone to legend faster and doesn't punish someone for reincarnating at the "wrong time" rank-wise.

I understand the reason for wanting to reset legendary ranks since being able to level with legend ranks would be extremely potent and let people hit their 6x reincarnations real fast compared to others.  I do think leaving the non-legend ranks intact would be good and is a bit more of an even playing field than being legendary at level 1.  Sure that will make leveling "easier" but rich players will rebuy their main ranks anyways and the xp penalty means that auto invis thief or auto steelskin tank is still going to take longer to hit 1x again.


I suggest adding a clarification to this part:
Quote
All ranks, including Arctic Legend, will be reset and will need to be purchased again. Legendary effects, skills and spells will be removed.

To make it clear that the purchase ranks are reset but the player keeps their current rank and has the RP refunded.  I can see the current wording being misread as "your ranks are reset back to rank 0."

Quote
Reincarnated characters have their skill points reset, and will need to
retrain them. Some memory of their previous expertise remains, so characters
will find that retraining skills will be much faster.

Does this mean characters will get some innate +learn with each reincarnation?  If so that's cool and would also be a nice additional buff for any casters who reincarnated and don't have all their spells yet.


And please make the xp penalty smaller for neutral characters.  Neutrals already level so much slower than Good/Evil characters that if reincarnation is a cumulative 10% xp penalty then even at R5 or R6 a Good/Evil will be able to xp at a rate close to the default for a Neutral.  As long as legend requires r25+ and lvl 30 that's going to be a big enough wait for people who reincarnate.

I wonder if +2 stat falls into the "degenerate power creep" category (like steelskin for tanks or spellsaves and mindshield for curers) which is so good that everybody has to get it and then the fights need to be rebalanced.

IMO content shouldn't be rebalanced around reincarnation.  If a clan of a dozen people take the time to reincarnate 6x on their mains then they should have an easier time of things than if they hadn't ever reincarnated in the first place and the rest of the MUD shouldn't be punished by having hard fights made harder or put out of their reach.  Plus while reincarnation is a nice power boost, I don't think it's going to be on the same level of legend vs non-legend.


@Adepali I'd suggest allowing reincarnated characters to roll new exotic alts at any level as well.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Malthros on June 26, 2019, 12:01:51 AM
Additional thought:  When you reincarnate can you keep rerolling or will a reincarnation be set at the default 'ideal' for their race?  IE, if a human barbarian's stats can hit 18 13 13 15 20 13 then reincarnating in to a human as a barbarian gives you those stats +1 to your original pick and +2 for your reincarnation stat bonus selection?

Or HP gains.  If those still have some randomness to them that could be annoying for someone who reincarnates and ends up on the low end of averages.  If Gains are normalized by lvl 30 then nevermind.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 26, 2019, 07:35:29 AM
Reseting ranks, especially legendary ranks, seems to be the biggest complaint... but this is still open to debate.

any chance of replacing the "superb skill requirements" with either a minimum level or dropping them to v.good?  skills training is just brutal right now. i'll skill to get legend, but there is no way i'm going to give up legend in order to skill.  i absolutely love the reincarnation idea but just cannot see myself participating after i can get legendary.  it will be like the medals and alchemy.  i absolutely love the idea and appreciate the hard work that goes into setting up such a system, but after weighing the pros and cons, i decided against it.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 26, 2019, 10:02:40 PM
I am now unsure of the intent of reincarnation.  I used to be sure of the intent and my previous comments were based on that presumption.  But I now see several possible problems the reincarnation system could address. Depending on the problem reincarnation is trying to address, different mechanics might be called for.

- people quit or roll new characters AFTER getting legendary because they have nothing to do. This is what I originally thought reincarnation was for.  in this scenario, "become an arctic legend" is the one rank that should NOT be taken away
- people quit or roll a new character BEFORE getting legendary because they nothing to do after they hit level 28 other than grind their magikarp into a legendary garidos.  there is no satisfying progress or improvement between level 28 and legendary.  In this case removing the "become an arctic legend" rank is irrelevant.  For me the game currently starts at legendary and so anything that makes the pre-legend experience better or shorter would be welcome.
- the people who "race to legendary" enjoy too much advantage over those who take longer to skill and spell.  In this case, removing the "become an arctic legend" becomes the "core" mechanic as it means that the "slow to legend" people will eventually wind up with a better character than the "rush to legend people".  In addition the "rush to legend" people will then have to make a difficult choice between sacrificing the max power of their character or reincarnating and letting other catch up (because legendary is effectively delayed until rank 35 or so for the heavy reincarnaters).
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: jwhite on June 27, 2019, 01:59:17 AM
I am now unsure of the intent of reincarnation.  I used to be sure of the intent and my previous comments were based on that presumption.  But I now see several possible problems the reincarnation system could address. Depending on the problem reincarnation is trying to address, different mechanics might be called for.

- people quit or roll new characters AFTER getting legendary because they have nothing to do. This is what I originally thought reincarnation was for.  in this scenario, "become an arctic legend" is the one rank that should NOT be taken away
- people quit or roll a new character BEFORE getting legendary because they nothing to do after they hit level 28 other than grind their magikarp into a legendary garidos.  there is no satisfying progress or improvement between level 28 and legendary.  In this case removing the "become an arctic legend" rank is irrelevant.  For me the game currently starts at legendary and so anything that makes the pre-legend experience better or shorter would be welcome.
- the people who "race to legendary" enjoy too much advantage over those who take longer to skill and spell.  In this case, removing the "become an arctic legend" becomes the "core" mechanic as it means that the "slow to legend" people will eventually wind up with a better character than the "rush to legend people".  In addition the "rush to legend" people will then have to make a difficult choice between sacrificing the max power of their character or reincarnating and letting other catch up (because legendary is effectively delayed until rank 35 or so for the heavy reincarnaters).

as i understand it reaching legendary will be much easier after the first time.  skills will train up to superb much more quickly than before and you begin the game with your full equipment and a couple of ranks.

as for the legendary characters having to make a huge choice to scrap much of that progress and start fresh...couldnt that be a good thing?  i like the big decisions like that.  and people who dont want to do it dont have to.  it sounds like it could potentially be a wipe-long project if xp inreases every reincarnation.  so maybe staying with your first character will be the best option for some.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: shardelay on June 27, 2019, 02:41:33 AM
A few thoughts:

1) Increased power:  I tend to like it. (make no mistake, this will be a significant increase in power for high reincarnation chars).  An extra 12 ranks is huge - thats an entire full immunity, or its just enough to allow the damage shield ranks to look mildly affordable.  An extra 12 to con/str/dex is great on a tank (I'll be taking max dex please thanks)  An extra -6ss... wow.  Add in some extra hp, moves, etc... for shits and giggles and this is a very large boost if you follow through with 6x

2) Content/replay-ability: Not sure i like this aspect - This is not really new content, but it encourages replay ability for the lvl 1-29 range.  I enjoy the high rank and higher lvls zones - this obliges the extra time spent to be at the low lvls.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but i think it will be rather dull and feel grindy.  Sure, i have the choice to not opt in, but who wants to give up on power so ill probably opt in and be annoyed at the duplication of low lvl zones again and again.  Some PCs will burn out, some PCs love low zones and wont care.  Some folks will ignore it entirely - but i suspect not many will.

3) Grouping: I think this will fragment the player bases levels.  I don't think it will generate a lot of random LFG shouts.  Rather, i predict 2 people simultaneously deciding to reinc and powerleveling to 30 at lightning speed ignoring the world.  This may actually make it harder to group because of fragmented levels.  Not a huge issue, but sort of not great.  This will probably impact larger clans who are zoning more and will give solo players a lot more solo progress to work on.  I'll be annoyed that when I'm not reincarnating and want to zone my clan will all be lvl 14, and vica versa.  This is good and bad.

4) Exotic race rush - this removes the rush to legend/throw out char/make an exotic go to move.  I like that - always seemed weird to have a rush char and then start over again.

5) Re-level penalties: re buying ranks - not a big deal.  Cash comes and cash goes.  This is the penalty i care about the least.  Honestly - if I'm going too reincarnate at 1x i probably wont even bother buying most ranks anyway.  Ranks matter on big fights, but if I'm looking to maximize exp/hour ranks aren't a gigantic benefit.   When I'm leveling to legend, half the time I don't buy ranks cause I'm just saving up for legend.  Or maybe everyone will just buy only +dam ranks til they are 6x?

6) Re-level penalties: skilling again - at first this sounds really shitty.  Skilling is one of the worst parts of the game.  I guess this is offset by the fact that i don't need to skill unless i'm going to legend and there is no sense legending if i am going to reincarnate.  So I believe I would just skill up 1 weapon skill and ignore most everything else like field medic or battle cry until my 6th reinc.  In fact, for my first 5x i i would ignore most skills completely and just learn passively what ever i'm using.  That seems sorta weird, but i guess it makes the resetting of skills sort of moot.  Side note: Will i have a faster time skilling up on my 6th reinc on field medic if i left my field medic at awful 5x?

7) Re-level penalties: exp is slower.  That sucks.  I get why you want things to be progressively more expensive, but that just means increase the low lvl grind.  And the low lvl is pretty much is a grind.  Very few people explore at lvl 12 - almost every levels as fast as they can.  we call it a rush - we are all rushing!  Sure, i could stop and try to enjoy the scenery more - but I'm just not that sorta player. 

Do we think anyone will reincarnate much later than 1x and rank 15?  I'm guessing that a bulk of people will either never reincarnate, or keep reincarnating as soon as they can until they either quit or hit 6x.  So basically I think this creates a large delay in getting legends, but then makes all the legends far more powerful. 

It sounds to me like this will concentrate the bonus's on lower lvl's and front load the power curve at the cost of low lvl grinding - i.e. making people stronger BEFORE they get to very high ranks becaue they killed que-teh ALOT.

I like the general idea of reincarnation, and if the choice was take it as listed or ignore it, I would take it  because i think it's a large power increase (and i like power!!)  But can I ask what the intent is with the change?  What was the problem you are trying to solve?  I hesitate to suggest changes to the idea until I know what you are trying to do.  W'out knowing that the ideas will be all over the place.   

Hopefully the observations are helpful even w'out suggestions.

Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Jorake on June 27, 2019, 01:39:41 PM
It all sounds like great fun.

The main thing I would suggest is, if you are going to make the leveling harder, can we make skills WAY easier? Skill grinding for useless skills is probably the worst part of leveling a character. And if you are already working at like 2x the exp or whatever... grinding out some useless skill that you literally never use outside of needing it for legendary, will be very mind numbing. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Alecto on June 27, 2019, 04:01:59 PM
It sounds exciting. I am always up for a new challenge!
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 27, 2019, 04:35:00 PM
Skill grinding for useless skills is probably the worst part of leveling a character.... grinding out some useless skill that you literally never use outside of needing it for legendary, will be very mind numbing. Thoughts?

I plan to do all my reincarnating before i legend (I'm guessing this will be once or twice).  I plan to neglect all skilling until my final reincarnation.  This will mean I do the legendary skill grind once and only once.  because you lose legendary status upon reincarnating, this system looks like it is filling in the "i have nothing to do between level 28 and rank 25" niche and that people will opt out of the reincarnation system after they reach legendary.  legendary is where the fun begins for me.  but i do understand the desire from designers to delay legendary... so anything that makes the pre-legendary experience not so dreadful is welcome.

I may be in a minority but in general I'm opposed to power increases (+stat, +hp, imm_charm, steelskin) for changes and would prefer quality of life (moves and regen, mass waterbreath) and utility (detects, free underwater action).  When power increases become available, everyone (myself included) takes it because it would be stupid not to and then the imms notice that people are steamrolling and then fights get rebalanced and the net result is that the power balance remains the same but the game is now more grindy. 
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Jorake on June 28, 2019, 04:25:10 AM
Delaying legend is fine as long as you can access legend races. Which it sounds like we will be able to.

I would very much almost beg the imms to leave any skill gains the same if possible? I don't know how that would work, i know i have prelearned spells before. And then they show up in my slot when i get that slot. Any way to make skills stay the same? So if i hit lvl 30 1x and i superb all the useful skills that I need for my character etc. Exp grind is the 2nd worst when you actually focus on the exp and not just zoning. Which sometimes when no one else is on and even with 2 guys you can only focus on that exp. Level 29-30 is like 45mil to? or some such. So 45mil x 6 reincarnates = 270million exp from lvl 29 to 30. So that means  you have to wait ALL that time which for some folks could be weeks really, because of lower playtimes, just to get superb skills again.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 28, 2019, 02:41:23 PM
as for the legendary characters having to make a huge choice to scrap much of that progress and start fresh...couldnt that be a good thing?  i like the big decisions like that...

it could, that's why i asked what the intention of this change is.  is it to inflict a penalty on people who get legend asap?  Is it to delay legend? is it to give people something to do before legend?  If so, then maybe we should just get rid of legend or make it require rank 40.  As long as legendary is a thing, I will legend asap, but maybe legend was bad for the game.  before legend the clans co-operate with one another.  after legend, a clan barely cooperates with itself.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Malaki on June 28, 2019, 02:57:20 PM
Interesting idea, seems to be trying to solve the symptom not the root cause / problem.  Overall i would say it would only create additional imbalance, and create a larger divide between those that grind time in the game and not.

If need more ease of ranks, bump rank xp or add more locations with it.
If need to reset spell failures, increase the availability or ability to do that.
If need more HP, add more HP gear, preps, ranks.

I think this helps identify areas for adjustment.

Certainly an interesting take on things.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Vasagh on June 28, 2019, 03:44:25 PM
As I understand the proposed system, the idea of losing all rank progress / legend skills and abilities of a character class is not viable, at least the style of play which revolves around doing high-end content. You can do this by rolling a separate new character.

A better design is the one that Rift MMO has where you could switch between roles (classes in effect).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rift_(video_game)#Gameplay

Basically you can switch at whim (out of combat) between roles (classes), and allow sharing of certain skills/spells that cross-over. This effectively removes the need to destroy your advanced character and you can choose to play/advance any one class and switch back and forth.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 28, 2019, 04:25:01 PM
As I understand the proposed system, the idea of losing all rank progress / legend skills and abilities of a character class is not viable, at least the style of play which revolves around doing high-end content. You can do this by rolling a separate new character.

Maybe the intent is to take the focus away from high-end content.  Those that focus on high-end content too early will eventually wind up behind those that who reincarnate often.  Those who want the most powerful character will have to delay legendary and let those who legendary early get ahead of them.  Those who go for an early lead will be far behind those who reincarnate 6x when the reincarnaters finally legend.  Maybe the reincarnaters will enter pickup groups when they meet people in sligs or brogs since they dont have the opportunity to group with their clannies.  Maybe pk will erupt over zonestealing deep mines.  If this is the way we are moving, perhaps we should just remove legendary and have reincarnation take its palce.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Dyl on June 28, 2019, 04:54:25 PM
The coin sink to rebuy legend and legend ranks is absurd, to do it 7 times over is mad.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Vasagh on June 28, 2019, 05:03:04 PM
Those who want the most powerful character will have to delay legendary and let those who legendary early get ahead of them.  Those who go for an early lead will be far behind those who reincarnate 6x when the reincarnaters finally legend.

I'd like to see someone catching up to a 45+ rank wipe legendary character if you reincarnate 6x. Maybe Adepali can try this and see how much fun it is after 9 months being still rank 1.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Tajs on June 28, 2019, 06:08:38 PM
Those who want the most powerful character will have to delay legendary and let those who legendary early get ahead of them.  Those who go for an early lead will be far behind those who reincarnate 6x when the reincarnaters finally legend.

I'd like to see someone catching up to a 45+ rank wipe legendary character if you reincarnate 6x. Maybe Adepali can try this and see how much fun it is after 9 months being still rank 1.

It's the bought ranks that are to be reset, as I understand it, not character back to rank 1
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Kam on June 28, 2019, 07:37:40 PM
There is no 'problem' that the reincarnation feature is intended to solve.

Reincarnation is simply a new facet that we are adding to the game.
It is optional and may not be for everyone, we understand that and are fine with it.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Kam on June 28, 2019, 08:14:45 PM
A theoretical example of progression here:

 - You are level 30, 1X and rank 15 (out of 50).
   - You reincarnate, you are now level 1 and rank 17 (out of 52).
   - You reach level 30 and 1X again, say you're rank 24 (out of 52) now.
     - You reincarnate the second time, you are now level 1 and rank 26 (out of 54).
     - You reach level 30 and 1X again, say you're rank 34 (out of 54) now.
       - You reincarnate the third time, you are now level 1 and rank 36 (out of 56).
       - You reach level 30 and 1X again, say you're rank 42 (out of 56).
         - You reincarnate the fourth time, you are now level 1 and rank 44 (out of 58).
         - You reach level 30 and 1X again, say you're rank 50 (out of 58).
            - You reincarnate the fifth time, you are now level 1 and rank 52 (out of 60).
            - You reach level 30 and 1X again, say you're rank 56 (out of 60).
               - You reincarnate the sixth time, you are now level 1 and rank 58 (out of 62).
               - You can continue to level 30/1X/rank 62.

By now you've gained +12 points to your base stats (in increments of 2).
You have been able to change races six times.
You have +120 movement points.
You have +90/60/30 hitpoints class depending.
You have a permanent -6 saving spell bonus.
Each time you've reincarnated all your spell failures have been removed (this also happens each level and each rank gained, remember).
Each time your kill history (this is how you "max" on mobs) is reset.


The ranks you gain do not count toward the max, effectively raising the max rank by 2 each time you reincarnate.
The ranks you gain from reincarnation do not affect the amount of rankxp it takes to gain a new rank.
- This is maybe a little convoluted, but: if you're rank 20 and reincarnate you're now rank 22 but the rankxp required to reach rank 23 is the same as it would have been to reach rank 21 before you reincarnated.
You will lose any progress toward your next rank when you reincarnate. So if you are rank 10 and 54% to rank 11, when you reincarnate you'll be rank 12 and 0% to rank 13.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on June 28, 2019, 09:45:37 PM
xp loss on death seems to be tied to the xp required to level.  after a few reincarnations and enough unlucky deaths, the kill history might get to the point where a player would not be able to reliably gain xp.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: shardelay on June 29, 2019, 01:09:21 AM
xp loss on death is confusing.  If i die at 1x on two characters (woops!) at the same time, they often require different amounts of XP to get to 1x again.

Mysterious!
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Jorake on June 29, 2019, 03:23:45 PM
I think Kam explained it well. And I'm on board. Is this a next wipe type thing?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Malthros on June 29, 2019, 05:55:13 PM
xp loss on death seems to be tied to the xp required to level.  after a few reincarnations and enough unlucky deaths, the kill history might get to the point where a player would not be able to reliably gain xp.

Isn’t the kill list finite?  Someone who has reincarnated multiple times is probably going to be playing it safe while leveling and know enough zones, or be in a clan with people who know enough, that they won’t hit a dead end.

Plus i don’t think you can max out on quest xp, or did that change in recent years?


E: to be clear, I’m also ok with no xp penalty when reincarting because that’s going to be hell for neutrals unless it’s less than what good and evil aligns get.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Kam on June 29, 2019, 09:15:54 PM
It would be impossible to actually 'dead end' on XP. Learn more zones.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: jwhite on June 30, 2019, 06:35:54 PM
i hope this makes it in.  it sounds fun to me.  although what gnua said about the mobs getting rebalanced does worry me a bit.  being able to get stronger is fun.  having to work much harder to get as strong as we were before the changes is not.

but if it does get implemented someone should maybe look at level 30 exp. 
i got this for killing a palanthas guard in a 4 man group - You receive 32089 experience.
then i soloed another guard - You receive 132386 experience.

the group exp is less than 25% of the solo and i would be maxing out with much less total exp.  right now no one cares since exp after level 30 doesnt really matter, but in the reincarnation system i feel like im going to want to solo from level 30 to 1x.  and that is not as fun.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Malthros on July 01, 2019, 03:46:49 AM
@Adepali. Consider adding something like a player just needs to hit 1x and if they die but stay lvl 30 they can still reincarnate. That way someone who hits 1x in a zone isn’t risking ‘punishment’ by sticking around to help finish the zone where death is a risk?  Might be unnecessary but the buffer would be nice.


The coin sink to rebuy legend and legend ranks is absurd, to do it 7 times over is mad.

Why would you buy it 7x though?  Since you lose legendary when you reincarnate the only reason to bother spilling to hit legend is if you’re going a long time between reincarnations. If you’re reincarnating ASAP you aren’t going to waste time skilling unnecessary skills. I know some nonlegend ranks will be immediate re-buys and would love to see nonlegend ranks just carry over to avoid some extra coin grind though. :)

i hope this makes it in.  it sounds fun to me.  although what gnua said about the mobs getting rebalanced does worry me a bit.  being able to get stronger is fun.  having to work much harder to get as strong as we were before the changes is not.

If anything it sounds like an option for people to work on long term to help offset the buff some mobs and zones received in the past few years or so.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Kadaj on July 01, 2019, 12:46:17 PM
Basically you can switch at whim (out of combat) between roles (classes), and allow sharing of certain skills/spells that cross-over. This effectively removes the need to destroy your advanced character and you can choose to play/advance any one class and switch back and forth.

 And here I thought I was the only one who played RIFT before!

I really like the idea of being able to 'switch' between your current version and your re-incarnated version. Maybe a special potion or little 5 minute quest or something could be available so you can be useful while groups are going and switch back to solo/2 manning when no one is around. With so few people playing, I feel like having even 1-2 people re-incarnated and level 12 isn't going to help zoning at all.

Overall I think I would enjoy this system. I would certainly shy away from re-incarnating if I had to retrain all my skills again, even if they were faster. If I could just get a single learn on each skill at each level and it would immediately max out, ok. But there's absolutely no way I would re-skill again. Just imagine for a second, how much actual TIME would be spent training skills while afk a 6 time re-incarnated Shaman would take? It's already obnoxious to legend a shaman....I would hate to do that 5 more times, regardless of the benefits.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on July 02, 2019, 02:55:51 AM
Just imagine for a second, how much actual TIME would be spent training skills while afk a 6 time re-incarnated Shaman would take? It's already obnoxious to legend a shaman....I would hate to do that 5 more times, regardless of the benefits.

I think the point is to reincarnate before legending.  And the power gamers who hit rank 25 asap will now have a difficult decision to make... to legend or to reincarnate.  whereas the less savvy people who get enough xp to reincarnate 6x before they legend wont have a difficult choice to make it.
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Gnua on July 02, 2019, 02:59:05 AM
It would be impossible to actually 'dead end' on XP. Learn more zones.

I'm sure I could dead end on my limited knowledge of zones.  And whenever I learn new zones, I lose xp.  And while it is worth dying to get the knowledge, I know I wont be getting xp.  Is this reincarnation catered to casuals or to provide more endgame power to the people who have beaten the mud and are in danger of quitting?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: Malthros on July 02, 2019, 03:09:10 PM
Overall I think I would enjoy this system. I would certainly shy away from re-incarnating if I had to retrain all my skills again, even if they were faster. If I could just get a single learn on each skill at each level and it would immediately max out, ok. But there's absolutely no way I would re-skill again. Just imagine for a second, how much actual TIME would be spent training skills while afk a 6 time re-incarnated Shaman would take? It's already obnoxious to legend a shaman....I would hate to do that 5 more times, regardless of the benefits.

Why would you be spending time max skilling in the first place?  Do you plan to legend before every reincarnation?  If so, why?
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Post by: kanu on July 03, 2019, 01:03:06 AM
Just a point about the experience aspect of reincarnation -- There are a LOT of fairly easy two-mannable zones in the game for both goodies and evils. I don't know as much about the ideal zones for neutral characters (since I rarely play neutrals). Also, I have found that in high-level zones, I frequently get back my lost experience from dying without having to make an effort to re-experience my character. For when you come back again as a lowbie, some low-level zones, like the mansion near Solace, have so many unique mobs that one really has to work hard to max out experience in those zones.