Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jorquin on August 05, 2016, 01:16:48 PM

Title: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jorquin on August 05, 2016, 01:16:48 PM
This is the thread to discuss this topic. For the time being its unlikely any member of staff will weigh in on the conversation.

I have only created this thread to prevent this highly contentious issue from blocking positive ideas from being presented in other discussion threads.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jorake on August 05, 2016, 02:31:48 PM
Make it legal for a wipe. Let's see what happens. Each person is allowed to play 2 chars. More than 2 results in the entire setup being deleted.

It's been established that there is no stopping it. So many ways around it. Hell I have 2 phones and 2 tablets. One phone/tablet is personal the others are for work. 4 diff ips. Blow torch installed and I'm good to go. You can't even really ban anyone anymore. It's so easy to get around. Then just stay low key etc.

I think as long as you don't have bobs or joes running around with full groups. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: lurker on August 05, 2016, 03:38:00 PM
Give it a try for a wipe.  What is the worst that could happen?
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gnua on August 05, 2016, 05:18:10 PM
i like the idea of a single registered multi (sidekick?).  maybe a sidekick could be
 - level capped at 25 or 29
 - unable to pick up 'decent' gear (i think reed had a very good definition)
 - damage done reduction vs another player
 - reduced healing done on a character who cannot quit
 - rank cap at 11
 - take up 3 group slots

the rule against multi isnt being enforced and so the 'honest' people are at a considerable disadvantage.
on a similar note, bot skilling seems to be a sign of ridiculously unreasonable skill learn rates/requirements for legend. banish, field medic, mend, brew, scribe, arcane barrier, spellcraft, etc...  i wouldnt mind if some of those skills were deleted or simply not required for legend
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gnua on August 05, 2016, 05:38:51 PM
i just read reed's idea of a 'registered clan bot' and really like it and hope that solutions can be found to whatever complications / challenges such a setup might bring.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 05, 2016, 07:41:31 PM
Make it legal for a wipe. Let's see what happens. Each person is allowed to play 2 chars. More than 2 results in the entire setup being deleted.
To put limits on it is basically making it illegal.

Make it legal, no restrictions, and see what happens. Everything else is just speculative conjecture without data-driven decisions.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Rinad on August 05, 2016, 08:06:41 PM
I think if it was to be allowed, that a requirement is to include on the forum some basic code for various clients.  Because seriously, it seems it only benefits those who have more time on their hands and can actually write this shit.  Me I'm lucky if I can even play, let alone spending a few days writing code.   So if you can make it so that people all have  somewhat of a level playing field with this then sure.   Otherwise, it seems it only benefits those who've done it in the past and have all the "work" done.  Sorry but I'm over 40 as are probably most of us, which usually means any free time is either devoted to family or other projects, so if I have an hour or two, I'd rather be playing then spending that time trying to figure out how to make a bot work. 

That's my .02 worth.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jorake on August 05, 2016, 08:21:10 PM
Idk about code. I've never botted. I just play both chars. Type for both. I have an assist alias depending on what I use.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: reed23 on August 05, 2016, 10:31:17 PM
*Moved my post from the other thread*

I really like the idea of allowing everyone to play 2 characters from their single IP.  If anyone is caught playing any more than those 2, harsh consequences could be laid down.

Current Problems - People are already botting.  Whether you want to have your head in the clouds like Zozen or not, it happened, is happening, and will continue to happen regardless of the rules.  If a given group of players is not botting, they are at a severe disadvantage to the clans that have not only a bot, but a google doc allowing anyone in the clan to login to that proxy to access that tank/healer/etc.  Also, as the wipe grows past the 6-8 week mark, you have had basically 3 options the last few wipes.  1.  Join Core to have people to group with.  2.  Quit because you can't form a group.  3.  Bot.  There is nothing wrong with joining Core and they have done an impressive job continuing to zone throughout wipes and are generally accepting of players joining their zoning groups or even clan membership.

Benefits of Playing 2 Characters - From about 2007 through 2012, I played 2 characters manually from 2 laptops.  Those were the most enjoyable wipes of my way-too-long arctic career.  You are able to explore the game, learn new zones, form groups, and have a lot more flexibility (obviously) when playing 2 characters.  It will even the playing field for those who have not been playing multiple characters.  The clans that have benefitted over the years from bots are most likely not running 15 bots to gain an advantage.  Instead, they probably have had a main tank, healer, and a couple other bots on call in case there are not clan members who can log at that second.  When there are 3-5 real people around wanting to do something, they probably would log 1-2 bots and bam, you are off to have a good time (especially if the 3-5 players didn't have healing & tanking capabilities).  When other clan members logged and wanted to play, the bot or two would rent to allow the real person into the group.  As the wipe ages, people are likely to fade off which is to be expected.  However, if each person were allowed 2 characters, you could literally have 2-4 people and be able to still play the game at a high level.  There is no question you can do a lot of the game content on a legend shaman and paladin which has been over-quoted, but the fact of the matter is you have to do a lot of tedious prepping and have a much higher risk of massripping at endzone fights than if you had 4-6 characters in those same situations.  If we were allowed to play 2 characters at once right now, I would currently be playing with 1-2 friends to maybe do some exploring before the wipe starts.  Because that is not in the cards right now, i'll sit on the side lines until there is a new wipe announced and try to rally the troops.  Mid to late wipe mud activity is a big problem and this proposal would keep people around a lot longer than the current structure.

Lastly - I'd like to point out that clans that have only a couple of humans which control 8-10 man groups will get slaughtered in PK most of the time.  There are scripts out there that can make it possible to control 7-10 characters at once, but if those characters were ambushed or went up against 10 real players in a PK, the 10 humans will win the vast majority of the time.  I know from experience.

A couple other alternative ideas i'll throw out that I don't know if are possible, decent ideas, or enforceable - Put a max amount of bots per clan.  Each clan can have 2-3 bots.  (What about non-clanned people? - If you want to have bot accessibility, save up 25k and make a clan tag).  Or - Allow the multi character at a certain point (after 1 month of the wipe, or make it available once legend is reached, etc.)

The aging playerbase has less and less time to dedicate to arctic.  Having to search and beg to have people to group with isn't what many of us have the energy or time for anymore.  That is one reason wipes die so fast.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: gulca on August 06, 2016, 12:26:46 AM
Idk about code. I've never botted. I just play both chars. Type for both. I have an assist alias depending on what I use.

you are multi-ing. bot usually mean there's no active player behind the client side.

as noted, you don't need any scripts to play more than 1 char. just fast reading on different screens and fast typing.

a bot doesn't necessary mean multi-ing either. I would be an example, where I just run my botting script to gather some coins or skill some random skills. or find people's multi from who list. I may occasionally look at my tell log to talk to people but 10000 lines might scroll pass and I wouldn't have read a single line.

 I'm very bad at switching screens, so I almost never multi.

in any case, I would be glad to share codes on the forum and develop more advance coding if this is allowed.

my enjoyment over the last few years was mainly developing scripts and see how far I can push them within Arctic. yes I treat Arctic as a solo game with occasional chatting or group ing.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Pyder on August 06, 2016, 10:15:55 PM
Just for fun (never used it for anything other than testing purposes), i made a completely independent desktop application that rolled chars for me, and saved them (in other words, looked at the stats and decided it was decent and picked a new name from a list and started to roll another one, and kept going until it was out of names on the list). It's not really that hard to make completely automated programs that play mud for you if you have some basic programming knowledge.

Basic for example "healer-slave" code/scripting is not hard to do either... I program stuff like this all day, every day, in my job... But what i did with my char rolling bot was more an exercise in "i'm bored, can i do this?" than a "i want an automated slave to play a game for me!"....

Can't really see the point in allowing bots/multying.... i mean really, get some friends!

I have been sidelined a few times because a group is full of bots, and i don't really like the idea.

But on the other hand, if this is scribed into the game rules that one bot is allowed to have, i could concider the idea of supplying some basic coding or scripting or whatever if that's what people really want.... If not, you can always give me a holler, and i'll join your group with my humanly played char and we'll go do some awesome stuff, or wipe gloriously together and laugh about it :)

// SwedeAndy
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: fran on August 07, 2016, 02:10:50 AM
  One thing people keep ignoring on botting remains that if legal the game will divert in 20 bots outside each inn.   Someone will get bored and it will happen...people been working on bot armies for a while now with varying degrees of success. 
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 07, 2016, 03:23:22 AM
  One thing people keep ignoring on botting remains that if legal the game will divert in 20 bots outside each inn.

The amount of fear mongering and ignorance is astounding sometimes.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gramm on August 07, 2016, 05:51:17 PM
Bottom line, people are going to abuse the hell out of it, not all of us, i would personally love to be hiding my legend druid behind both of my legend barbarians and killing tons of stuff.
But if i decided i just wanted to have my solo barbarian killing celestial temple, whats to stop someone from logging 6 basher bots just to come piss in my cereal?
What is to stop someone who knows all those really elite loads from loading up all the limited items on characters that are automated and not even played by a real player?

To say have NO restrictions is bloody nonsense and you ALL know it!
to make the naysayers more comfortable a few ideas that i know would make me comfortable are
#1 make people register their bot chars.
#2 bot chars cant wear low limited gear
#3 Maybe you could make it so that if someone is pk flagged their bot char just stops responding to all commands, like a built in autostun or something. basically just dont use multis and bots in pk or allow, otherwise its a hugely unfair advantage to someone like myself that inspects welds and doesnt write code to have someone who does write code chase me down with a bot army.

if people didnt have the potential to run around playerkilling the shit out of all the people that dont write code for a living just because they can.... and didnt horde the nice gear on their "bot #3 and 4",
I think it would be bloody amazing to run around even with my #2 legend barbarian running around in just shop gear to aid my druid with real gear.

but yeah thats just my two cents as someone who thinks bots CAN add to this game without taking too much away from it... protect the limited items for peoples main NON BOT chars, and punish bot abusers that just run around pking everyone with a 4 man basher bot squad and a healer with extreme malice.

Pk is fine and dandy, but if someone with gulca's codewriting abilities decided to make a full group pk squad, i personally would quit without delay. call it fearmongering or whatever, its true someone will abuse it.
To therefore invite botting without ANY restrictions, is to trust in the playerbase without fear of even a single person abusing it.  NOT LIKELY
Restrictions need to be in place, so that when some asshat does go crazy and start eradicating a bunch of people every single time they log without a care in the world for actually learning the zones or game outside of mastering pk, or the shared experience of the other players for that matter, punishment can be dealt swiftly and justly.

I am pro botting/multiplaying, but only if there is a system in place to spank all the idiots who would be... idiots. Obviously peaceful zoner bot/multiplaying types would get spanked a lot less than the fools that would use this glorious gift to ruin the game for others in a perfect world...

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: eddiex on August 07, 2016, 06:46:32 PM
I think in general most players have abided by the established rule regarding multiing (no multiing). There are a few people who currently break the rules by char sharing, multiing, botting regularly.

As has been stated, the issue is nearly impossible to police.

I don't believe the all or nothing approach works. It does not address people's concerns about turning Arctic into a solo adventure game.  On the flip side if we maintain a complete ban, that does not address the issue that players are at a competitive disadvantage to rule breakers.

Those who fear monger the idea of allowing botting/multiing should consider two things:
A) a group of 5 or 10 real people could already sit outside an inn right now with triggers on anyone semi afk if they so pleased.
B)In the past an asshat policy was enforced pretty ironhandedly. The current staff said while they would like to reduce their involvement, it is not a free pass to be an asshole. Ergo-pretty safe to assume a innsitting not squad would be dealt with.

For those who say that one character is strong enough and it's unnecessary.
A) People already do it, go unpunished and receive a competitive advantage as reward for their rule breaking.
B) altering the game entirely so it's suitable for smaller groups, i.e. 5 mans is much more work than just allowing a second character per ip. It would also make the rule breaking player even stronger because it would require even less  bots to achieve the same thing meaning easier steamrollin for them.
C)being capable of doing most zones on 2  not necessarily make that an enjoyable experience. I can two man storms or some of pax but it will take significantly longer than with a normal sized group.

In the current proposition only the people who break the rules and the vehemently opposed get what they want.

I am interested to see what portion of the population represents people who sit somewhere in the middle on the issue of multiing/botting.

I think in the spirit of competitive fairness each player should be able to play 2 chars from their single ip. Imms can see players ips and track this fairly easy I think. I think most players will conform to the established rule as they do now. The people who use more than 2 chars will maintain doing what they already do or conform.  In the end the edge an unregulated rule breaker had over rule abiding players will be reduced by a compromise like this.

TL:DR Try something different. The current standard of absolutely no multiing/botting has been around for long enough. Try anything (preferably 2 chars per player).
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Bedal Brightblade on August 07, 2016, 07:03:17 PM
I don't post much, but I need to state the obvious here. The thought of making botting legal is to make the game more acessable to the solo/two/three man groups, correct?

Instead of doing this and making it a nightmare for a player to enjoy the game with 10 man bot pk groups, why not just lower the difficulty of the game?

Make max group size 6, lower all mob 'difficulty' by say 30%. Now people can do high end zones without having to form a 10 man with a low player base, forcing people to play stratigaiclly instead of strength in numbers, which is what Arctic was 10 years ago.

Did I mention a ridiculously less amount of spam?
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Kir on August 07, 2016, 07:06:50 PM
Personally, i think that if you made botting totally legal, everybody would be running around with there own 10 man which could be bad when you have a clan of 20 people rolling in with 200 characters for pk cleaning out the mud.

However, I like the idea of each person playing two characters or better yet, each clan having 1 dedicated bot, like a heal bot that has to be registered
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: newbie123321 on August 07, 2016, 09:01:33 PM
The imms would be able to tell if you were using more then 1 bot and probably get deleted of course in the instance that they allow everyone 1 bot <bot>, but I think that may also be bad since most people just follow so many people may not get in the main group because of this so possibly allowing a clan to have up to 2 bots or maybe just 1 bot per group would be nice, but yeah to see more then 3 ten mans running around mud! bots or not, would make my day because remember if we all can use them no one has an advantage the smarter strat./leader will win.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: newbie123321 on August 07, 2016, 09:40:08 PM
For sure some rule that only a ten man per clan can attack another clan would be good so a clan cant just do what guy said about 200 people walking in a room and killing another clans group
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: relethane on August 07, 2016, 11:08:36 PM
I think people like to multi right now because it is cheating and gives them an unfair advantage, and it is fun to have an unfair advantage.  If multi-ing is legal, then everyone will have to multi to stay at all competitive, none of the cheaters will have their unfair advantage, and everyone will be unhappy because it is a pain in the ass to multi. 

I agree with punkmasterm in that you could get the same effect of allowing multis by just making the game easier, plus it would be more fun to boot.  It seems that in the era of massive pk leveling and equipping was easier and death hurt much less...
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 08, 2016, 12:34:37 AM
it is a pain in the ass to multi. 

My solution is thus. 1 char online per unique ip. Every char online must have a unique ip. If you can amass 100 unique ips, and play 100 chars at once, power to you. If you want imms/staff to police the mortal playerbase, then guess what, this new admin staff is not going to be any better than the last admin staff.

The real issue is, people are so attached to their shinies and characters that they are afraid to die now and fear pk.

People speak of various doomsday scenarios like 40 level 1 bots camped outside the inn ready to thornspray you to death. But the reality is, controlling more than 3 chars at once is very hard and tedious unless you have some sophisticated scripts. Your average assist bot won't do the trick. And any bot group will lose in any large scale pk. I can point to numerous pk logs I've seen from the bot perspective. Bots are hard to ambush but easy to pk. And bots are not creative like human pk'ers can be.

The reason why most folks have suggested an arbitrary number of 2 bots per group or whatever is because that's what they have experience playing with and controlling. The reality is once you scale to 5 chars or 8 chars at once, it's pretty hard without sophisticated scripts and programs which is why you don't see armies of bots running around today. Only PoG maybe in years past, and they never fought straight up 10v10.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: kanu on August 08, 2016, 01:58:58 AM
Honestly, my only reason for wanting a bot is so that I can practice inspire and march and finally legend my DK whereas otherwise I have to group and I honestly cannot find a group all of the time.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Kadaj on August 08, 2016, 04:45:29 AM
One problem I do see that hasn't been addressed with the two characters per person. What a player has a main char and a bot.....but also has a proxy "bot" who also has a hot registered. There is just so much to take into consideration.  Idc either way.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: eddiex on August 08, 2016, 04:57:06 AM
One problem I do see that hasn't been addressed with the two characters per person. What a player has a main char and a bot.....but also has a proxy "bot" who also has a hot registered. There is just so much to take into consideration.  Idc either way.

Kinda a moot point don't you think? People already violate the rule not to have any multi's/bot's.

Allowing 2 chars per IP is a compromise (since imms cannot effectively police multiing/botting), which gets the law abiding players closer to an equitable situation with rule breaking players, while not just allowing a free for all.

My solution is thus. 1 char online per unique ip. Every char online must have a unique ip. If you can amass 100 unique ips, and play 100 chars at once, power to you.

Can you clarify the logic behind this? Seems to only benefit those who have experience logging through proxies, which are the people who are already abusing the system. 

I don't understand why it matters if you log 100 from 1 ip or 100 different ips.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 08, 2016, 07:34:26 AM
Can you clarify the logic behind this? Seems to only benefit those who have experience logging through proxies, which are the people who are already abusing the system. 

I don't understand why it matters if you log 100 from 1 ip or 100 different ips.

There's actually a real big difference between a 1-to-1 online char per ip and 10 chars per 1 ip.
The reason it matters is because of actual real world monetary cost. Proxies cost real money as do other more advanced forms of multiing. If you log 100 chars from 1 ip, that's 0 cost. But if you require and enforce 1 online char per ip, then at a certain point the person has to start paying out of pocket.

It's also technically more difficult to coordinate 100 chars from 100 different ips.
Even a novice can easily control 100 chars from 1 ip with the same client.

So limiting 1 online char per 1 real ip functions as a natural deterrent towards botting and offers a number of benefits
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Dyl on August 08, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
What about in game mercenaries/mobs you can quest for or hire rather than multiple connections by the same person.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Kadaj on August 08, 2016, 04:26:23 PM


Kinda a moot point don't you think? People already violate the rule not to have any multi's/bot's.
[/quote]

Then why are we even having a discussion of allowing botting or not. If people will just find a way, I don't see why there are 2 pages full of discussions on something that people can do anyway.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 08, 2016, 05:52:14 PM
If people will just find a way, I don't see why there are 2 pages full of discussions on something that people can do anyway.

Agree.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Thymorical on August 08, 2016, 06:03:35 PM
I feel like I should say something..
botting is bad?
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: eddiex on August 08, 2016, 06:21:08 PM
I'd imagine it's because there are many players who choose to abide by the established rules regarding this issue. A change in rules does not matter to those who already circumvent the system only those who abide.

The only people effected adversely by the multi/bot prohibition are those who follow the rules because as imm stated "impossible to police". Furthermore, the absolute prohibition has resulted in inequitable enforcement and punishment in the past which strained player/imm relationship.

Therefore a compromise in the interest of those who abide by the rules is proposed.

Oligo is like the guy who runs a marijuana grow syndicate and doesn't want it to be legalized unless he stands to benefit, since it infringes on his business.

Are you going to start renting out ips and bots in your proposed pay-to-multi scheme?
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gnua on August 08, 2016, 06:31:53 PM
Then why are we even having a discussion of allowing botting or not. If people will just find a way, I don't see why there are 2 pages full of discussions on something that people can do anyway.

the theory is that there are 'honest' people out there who dont multi and instead log off when they cannot find a group.  if they were allowed to multi the speculation is that they would start doing a zone and invite a friend to join them when the friend logged on.  from my experience, this is a reasonable speculation.

although i do not multi, i do play a shaman and used to solo ct, spider queen, drac tower, shayds with my spirit 'multis' when no one was on.  usually while i was doing these zones, a friend or two would eventually log and they would join me.  then a real leader would log, see the group, and we'd start steamrolling.  but a few weeks ago, they changed the pet system (and possibly for good reason seeing that shamans are completely overpowered) so that the spirits would foom more often on a dodge.  now when i try to solo these zones, i lose spirits more quickly than i gain them.  knowing that i cannot solo these zones anymore, i now just rent when no one else is on.

as to the fears that legalized botting will create an escalation, perhaps we could try it and see if the fears are justified?  the reason i actually think that people will stop at one multi is that most people who already multi only run two characters at once.  i think i've known dozens of people who multi but only two who play more than two characters at once. my guess is that multiple bots are too much of a pain.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: jingo on August 08, 2016, 08:15:48 PM
I don't multi because it's against the rules.  2 at once is still a limitation, but the difference between 2 vs 3-10 and 1 vs 3-10 is huge.

Beyond that, I've played on some MUDs where multi-ing is allowed.  With just 2 characters, heavy scripting isn't a huge benefit.  But once you start to get to 5+ it can help a lot.  I've even made a custom client for it that uses HUDs and automatic command routing to make playing 5+ characters a lot easier.  It also has "bot mode" that could run some zones with zero input by myself.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 08, 2016, 10:00:20 PM
Oligo is like the guy who runs a marijuana grow syndicate and doesn't want it to be legalized unless he stands to benefit, since it infringes on his business.

Are you going to start renting out ips and bots in your proposed pay-to-multi scheme?

I lol'd. The irony of your analogy coming from you isn't lost on me.

I like your proposed PaaS (platform-as-a-service model).
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 08, 2016, 10:02:09 PM
my guess is that multiple bots are too much of a pain.

This is the real truth.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gyp on August 08, 2016, 11:09:32 PM
I'm always torn on Botting / Multi-ing.

First off though, they are the same thing.  At first it might not be, but it always eventually turns into being the same thing.  Eventually you need a healer, then you need a basher, then you need a mage, then you need a refresher, etc etc etc.  Then you think "bugger!,  I can't run these 5 characters myself, this is just too tiring and I just died because of not being able to alt tab or click over here fast enough", Now, enter the bot.  Starts off small, then grows.  Eventually, you're a bot master.  Therefore, they are the same, one is just a more infant stage of the other.

Another game some of you might be familiar with that allows botting is Everquest.  I've played that game for a long long time (barely shorter than I've played MUD).  I've botted upwards of 18 characters at one time in that game (there are some sweet programs that make it very easy to do) and the one thing I've learned from it is this:

Botting being allowed in an environment where people also do not bot makes things extremely unfair and it becomes simply a battle of "who has more bots" and everyone who has zero bots, quits.  simple as that.

Now obviously botting in Arctic might not be as simple as botting in everquest because you can't go out and buy 3rd party programs designed specifically to do it, so there you have even more of a disadvantage and it changes from "battle of the bots" to "battle of the coders"

Botting in arctic would be won by those players who are superior programmers.  If I can write a C# program that can control 8, 10 or 12 CMUD's (which I can do) then I have a extreme advantage over any group of 8,10 or 12 players because guess what, my computer can think faster, react faster and process more data faster than your 8 human minds can.  This means I always win once I refine my code enough.  I just sit around all day, letting my bots run around in a group, slaughtering whatever and whoever I want. Not even AFK. literally just watching them.  laughing.  playing another game, while my computer slays this one for me.

I could do this with as many groups as I want, and if the "unique" IP becomes an issue, I can create VPN connections and create as many IP's as you need me to so you can't delete me.  It is very easy when you know how to do it.

That all being said, that isn't what Arctic is about.  Then, as someone mentioned, it just becomes a Solo RPG which are about as much fun as watching paint dry, without any beer, by yourself, in a hot house.  Arctic is as much about the interaction with friends as it is getting gear.  The reason MUD's were created to begin with was to try to create a D&D electronic environment.

Now, the argument then comes into play about "well no one is on to play with, so now either I can't play or I need to bot" which is a great argument against all that i've said and why I think it should be welcomed in some way that doesn't affect the people who are anti-bot.

All that being said, my suggestion for Botting (in any game but especially one like Arctic where programming knowledge can provide a huge advantage therefor making it extremely hard to balance) is have 2 game ports.

BotPort is for people who want to play solo, but still want to enjoy the entire game of ArcticMUD.  It can be for people who can't find a group on the HumanPort so they go here and can still curb the twitch we all get when we don't play the game often enough.  It can be for any number of reasons but the main goal is if you want to use bots to do LEGIT things (such as learn the game) you can do it here.  If you want to do NON-LEGIT things, like destroy level 15's with your 8 level 30's just because they have a piece of gear you want, you can do that too, on this port because if your not botting, your complaints about botting, on the botport, will go unnoticed. go play on humanport silly human!

HumanPort stays the same, with possibly even stricter rules.  IMM's who are spending their time specifically sniffing out players who are botting and stop it from happening.  Yes, this can be hard, but no, its not impossible especially if a human is actively trying to spot a bot.  Humans talk in groups, humans go afk and get drug around, etc etc.  Wizinvis + watching your 8 man = easy tell your botting.  "but what if we are on teamspeak, or skype, and not using grouptell"  you would be given the opportunity to let the IMM join that conversation and there you go, problem solved.  Any excuse someone who's botting can come up with is easily proven one way or the other.

I have always believed that allowing bots to mingle alongside the non-botters is extremely unfair and gives the botters an infinitely large advantage.   In order to satisfy both botters and non-botters alike, they should be provided different worlds so they can both be happy.

Now, if there are people out there who bot with the sole purpose of GETTING an advantage of people who do not bot and making those people's gaming experience less than exciting, those people are assholes and I don't care what they think.  My goal in life is to out you and get you banned (or abyssed, whatever)

Botting for legit reasons (like having fun experiencing the game, learning the game, noone else is on and I want to run Zone X, etc) are healthy and should be somehow welcomed, but not alongside the people who don't share the same advantages.

Is it possible to have 2 game ports? I don't know. 
Would anyone even play on the botting port?  I think yes.  I know I would. 
Would people play on both ports? I know I would.

I apologize if someone else already suggested this, I did not read every post in this thread.

Have fun!
Gyp


Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: xellos on August 09, 2016, 05:59:53 PM
skim reading this right now but, if it were me i would love seeing a bot with end game gear because they will be the easy kill. unless its fueling because he has less impact in a group then a bot and still an easy kill.

on a side note  - we once tried to invite a he who must not be named  to join our skype call when he was accusing us of this or that and he declined.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gnua on August 09, 2016, 06:17:59 PM
First off though, they are the same thing.  At first it might not be, but it always eventually turns into being the same thing.  Eventually you need a healer, then you need a basher, then you need a mage, then you need a refresher, etc etc etc.  Then you think "bugger!,  I can't run these 5 characters myself, this is just too tiring and I just died because of not being able to alt tab or click over here fast enough", Now, enter the bot.  Starts off small, then grows.  Eventually, you're a bot master.

not necessarily.  some people bot but do not multi just to train their skills.  others multi and play 2 characters at once and stay that way for years and do not bot.  some people do both.  some do neither. they arent the same thing.  people who bot but do not multi is probably a symptom of a skill learn activities/rates that detracts from the fun of actual zoning.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gyp on August 09, 2016, 06:30:40 PM
First off though, they are the same thing.  At first it might not be, but it always eventually turns into being the same thing.  Eventually you need a healer, then you need a basher, then you need a mage, then you need a refresher, etc etc etc.  Then you think "bugger!,  I can't run these 5 characters myself, this is just too tiring and I just died because of not being able to alt tab or click over here fast enough", Now, enter the bot.  Starts off small, then grows.  Eventually, you're a bot master.

not necessarily.  some people bot but do not multi just to train their skills.  others multi and play 2 characters at once and stay that way for years and do not bot.  some people do both.  some do neither. they arent the same thing.  people who bot but do not multi is probably a symptom of a skill learn activities/rates that detracts from the fun of actual zoning.

Yes, there are always exceptions to the 'rule'.

I just feel if your goal is to zone, with multi's, then you will eventually bot.  It's just the natural evolution. 

If someone only wants to multi to train their skills, then perhaps how skills are trained should be re-evaluated so that they don't require that.  Such as Hide :)
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: SArT on August 09, 2016, 09:16:36 PM
I never multi, but I bot 90% of the time as legend. I have about 25 pages of script if I print it out small.. something like "koboldrun" or "matthiasrun" will steam roll through on my legend thieves and take out ever rank mob. I even have ancient on an automated script.

Add that to a tick timer and I can line them up and minimize the window at work.

I have played that way for years on my legend thieves and really would not change if I returned.

I guess I have multi'd when I controlled Gulca's healer now and then.. but it was on his box that he watched at work.. and I had limited control.

I have given my scripts out to a couple of people so I know I am not the only one that does this for sure. The problem is that it gets really boring as you aren't really playing the game.

Just make it all legal and let the dreamers dream!

SArT
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gyp on August 09, 2016, 09:42:35 PM
I never multi, but I bot 90% of the time as legend. I have about 25 pages of script if I print it out small.. something like "koboldrun" or "matthiasrun" will steam roll through on my legend thieves and take out ever rank mob. I even have ancient on an automated script.

Add that to a tick timer and I can line them up and minimize the window at work.

I have played that way for years on my legend thieves and really would not change if I returned.

I guess I have multi'd when I controlled Gulca's healer now and then.. but it was on his box that he watched at work.. and I had limited control.

I have given my scripts out to a couple of people so I know I am not the only one that does this for sure. The problem is that it gets really boring as you aren't really playing the game.

Just make it all legal and let the dreamers dream!

SArT

Not exactly a Bot IMO, but your advanced aliases sound cool :P
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 09, 2016, 10:21:36 PM
in any case, I would be glad to share codes on the forum and develop more advance coding if this is allowed.

You can put your scripts on github and share the link here. That's the best way to get community involvement and you get robust version control.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Zozen on August 10, 2016, 03:49:20 AM
Oligo is like the guy who runs a marijuana grow syndicate and doesn't want it to be legalized unless he stands to benefit, since it infringes on his business.

Are you going to start renting out ips and bots in your proposed pay-to-multi scheme?

I lol'd. The irony of your analogy coming from you isn't lost on me.

Come up to Trinity County in Northern California.. gold rush.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Ericj on August 10, 2016, 03:36:11 PM
I like the idea of having a clan bot or 2 people per IP.  The consistent thread I see is people worried that someone has their normal IP with a bot then a proxy with a bot.  I think imms can sniff out that stuff fairly easily and most players could.

I think if you are caught playing more than 2 people the penalty should be harsh, instant deletion.  Also, if you go with a clan bot or "registered" bot per IP those bots are not allowed to be involved in aggressive pk.  Of course, if someone ambushes you defend yourself but in general restricted from pk.  I'm not sure if the imms have a flag history they can look at like the PK board mortals see but would be interesting.

In general, the demographic who plays this game ages while no young blood comes in.  Having the ability to zone, explore and have a good time with limited real people I think is a good thing.  I saw a post earlyier from someone about as real players log on, the bots would rent.  That would be the ideal situation, gives people ability to zone and maintain momentum/excitement.  I think we've all logged on and saw barely any people online, much less clan mates and just decided to go spend our time doing something else.

Excited to hear further thoughts on this topic and also am glad to see an open discussion about multiple things that have been going on in arctic for years.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: jingo on August 10, 2016, 06:47:13 PM
Also, if you go with a clan bot or "registered" bot per IP those bots are not allowed to be involved in aggressive pk.  Of course, if someone ambushes you defend yourself but in general restricted from pk.  I'm not sure if the imms have a flag history they can look at like the PK board mortals see but would be interesting.
They want less immortal involvement, not more.  If you allow multi-ing you're going to have to allow it in PK.  Flags tend to be a mess and there are plenty of actions that invite PK but are not actually PK (such as healing mobs someone is fighting, or finishing a zone someone is halfway through).
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gramm on August 11, 2016, 02:00:15 AM
taking a step back form mortal affairs, doesnt mean to relinquish control of the game. it would be really nice if we could go a full wipe without having a need for any divine intervention. But that is likely a pipe dream, where there is a will there is a way, and some people are very willing to take things much further than they ever need to go. 

We just need to do a better job on the mortal side of things maintaining a little civility and self control i think personally, 90% of the stuff that ends up going too far causes people to end up quitting. The imms are certainly going to be on board with loss prevention in terms of playerbase I would think, so dont do anything that causes players to quit, like innsit folks and or make 6 bots and chase around solo players, and im sure you will never see a need for intervention.

Im not thrilled at the idea of NEEDING an autobot to defend me from other autobots... but I would do it if we had to, is every player going to be capable of running them though? is that really going to benefit newer players at all having some pk obsessed botmasters running around without control or some semblance of authority to keep them in line?
and yes there ARE newer players.

Its a nice pipe dream, i share it with you, but thats all it is. until we learn self control anyways.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: newbie123321 on August 11, 2016, 06:49:14 AM
Hoss even said that you are allowed to have scripts that do certain actions just as long as it doesn't do everything for you i.e. just assist/type group ect. but not all other actions ofc, because you know now a days people play 2 games at once especially with game where literally all your doing is following one leader so all you're forced to do is be there for kw's and do some skills but to get thru a zone yes people who are not the leader get bapting bored and want it to auto assist this is not a bot it's just a person who has cruise control, you will still crash if you're not actually there you just don't have to keep pressing the gas especially when you're in a zone that is long.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: newbie123321 on August 11, 2016, 07:34:23 AM
In the event we are allowed to tag and register 1 bot, it will still be easy to detect if your using more than the normal amount and The Mighty Jorquin knows how that looks like, plus in the event some bullshit went down like 200 people or more than 10 people/whatever the group size limit attacks/pks another clan/group they will more than likely get abyssed or deleted and if you're in a competitive clan I am very sure you will get reported and accused of cheating and will get snooped/watched to see if you are in fact being a bapting jerk! and exceeding the limit and abusing the privileges our New Overlord has so humbly granted us! ALL HAIL THE NEW OVERLORD!
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 11, 2016, 03:29:50 PM
Im not thrilled at the idea of NEEDING an autobot to defend me from other autobots... but I would do it if we had to, is every player going to be capable of running them though? is that really going to benefit newer players at all having some pk obsessed botmasters running around without control or some semblance of authority to keep them in line?
This is just more bot fear mongering.
Firstly, news flash, I'm pretty sure there have been 8 to 10 man bot crews which have been running since 2012. Secondly, if you look at the pklog, without naming names I only see bots as victims in the past 1/2 yr, no pk'ers.

2016-03-25 18:31:45 Turok killed Paprika.
2016-03-29 11:05:06 Scrat killed Suri.
2016-03-31 19:59:06 Turok killed Turrible.
2016-04-03 03:24:05 Turok killed Turrible.
2016-04-07 02:15:23 Aarcticmud killed Hossandaristoxx.
2016-04-07 02:58:22 Marius killed Bryton.
2016-04-07 23:10:35 Arden killed Irons.
2016-04-08 10:06:16 Hoss killed BrytonsHopesandDreams.
2016-04-22 23:06:55 Zat killed Bloat.
2016-04-22 23:07:11 Arden killed Fraker.
2016-04-22 23:07:19 Zat killed Jaune.
2016-04-22 23:07:21 Vez killed Dracula.
2016-05-04 17:34:47 Loki killed Skye.
2016-05-07 13:14:23 Nora killed Redrum.
2016-05-09 23:36:02 Scurry killed Florer.
2016-05-19 17:14:22 Jaune killed Corwin.
2016-05-24 23:49:38 Scurry killed Paso.
2016-05-26 16:14:14 Takyr killed Takyr.
2016-05-30 13:33:41 Blake killed Bloat.
2016-05-30 20:23:01 Turrible killed Turrible.
2016-06-03 12:32:41 Kanga killed Ware.
2016-06-15 19:48:13 Kleen killed Kleen.
2016-06-30 22:53:39 Scurry killed Didchoo.
2016-07-12 08:45:17 Hawt killed Hawt.
2016-07-14 18:10:25 Reddy killed Pharoh.
2016-07-17 18:26:52 Jaune killed Blake.
2016-07-18 22:48:12 Scurry killed Vez.
2016-07-18 23:23:15 Kalerin killed Cephelo.
2016-07-19 22:57:47 Jaune killed Bloat.
2016-07-19 23:15:34 Scurry killed Fraker.
2016-07-19 23:15:54 Scurry killed Aymahn.
2016-07-19 23:16:14 Scurry killed Hao.
2016-07-20 14:43:45 Jaqueline killed Reddy.
2016-07-20 14:51:48 Valeera killed Jaqueline.
2016-07-20 22:48:15 Scurry killed Paprika.
2016-07-20 22:55:23 Scurry killed Starkor.
2016-07-21 14:44:34 Chiz killed Rashan.
2016-07-29 15:13:57 Vraxim killed Nievel.
2016-07-30 16:16:17 Phife killed Siulents.
2016-08-04 22:49:37 Kalerin killed Paprika.

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Terk on August 12, 2016, 01:07:14 AM
This does not reflect the opinion of the staff.

I'm just an old retired jerk. I also think a lot of people who think like me are the sorts of people who are quiet on forums. Forums are obviously dominated by a few strong personalities.

I think there is very little upside to allowing botting and a lot of downside. At its core Arctic is a role playing game, which by definition implies a single player. Its long term success, while built on a few important things, ultimately comes down to personal relationships.

I've definitely been in a few bot groups in the past few years and the experience is lackluster. There's almost no conversation. Playing begins to feel like a job. It's painful. If the game was anything like that when I first started playing, I'd never have stuck around.

Throw in the additional downside of what Norm is calling the Doom's Day scenario--which I don't think is nearly as unlikely as is being touted (Yes maybe 1 player controlling 30 effectively is a challenge, but for 6 it would be trivial. 1 round from 30 bashers/punchers/kickers is going to kill any one player before they can say "I got oligooed"). Legal multiplaying has way more potential to drive players away than the status quo.

All that said I think we do need an in game solution for the most reasonable reason that multibots come to exist anyway--it is at times hard to find companions to do basic stuff that you need to do to advance your character effectively. A lot of people have talked about having a "single" multi, but I think this is complicated and not ideal for a variety of reasons that I don't like--primarily limited gear and limited group slots.

I'd propose a mercenary system that is entirely creation based so it doesn't require coding.

We'd open a store that sells a device made by a devious renegade mage, Morathian. This device will allow players to summon one of three different golems, each in 5 different colors. A warrior golem (red, green, blue, indigo, orange), A healing golem (red, green, blue, indigo, orange), A sneaking golem (w/pick) (red, green, blue, indigo, orange). You could summon the golem, and change it out every 1-5 ticks.

The reason for all the colors is that you could conveniently have them in a group and target the right one with your orders with some strategy.
I envision three tiers of devices. At costs of 20k (level 20), 100k (level 25), and 300k (level 30). Ultimately though, the highest tier would be like adding a level 30 charmy to your group. I'd even be fine with them being able to wear gear, if you wanted them to wear good stuff though you'd probably end up having it unworn in rent.

We'd have to make the device not work in one man's. Be no-steal. etc. But I think this would make it a lot easier to do high level zones with mid tier gear on a few friends and it'd make death traps diabolical (which I love). Also, Morathian would get rich.

-Jerk
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 12, 2016, 01:48:59 AM
Throw in the additional downside of what Norm is calling the Doom's Day scenario--which I don't think is nearly as unlikely as is being touted (Yes maybe 1 player controlling 30 effectively is a challenge, but for 6 it would be trivial. 1 round from 30 bashers/punchers/kickers is going to kill any one player before they can say "I got oligooed"). Legal multiplaying has way more potential to drive players away than the status quo.

Terk, I know for a fact you have single-handidly mass ripped an entire bot group in Irda in the Raylax tracker main room. You were like healing for some bot squad from a terminal at your hospital. So if you say playing 6 is trivial, that's definitely false. And I heard the reason they let you into the group, wasn't because of your healing abilities, but because they generously decided to boot a healbot for human company which turned out to be their fatal mistake.


Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: reed23 on August 12, 2016, 03:35:28 AM
Terk - What is the difference between playing 2 characters from 1 IP vs. having a mercenary that heals, bashes, picks, etc.?
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: avucu on August 12, 2016, 05:06:52 AM
I like the dual server idea.

1) Standard Arctic rules - no multis/bots, PK, limited items, pwipes, etc.
2) Baldur's Gate/RPG style server - multis/bots allowed, no PK, no limited items, no wipes, etc.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Malaki on August 12, 2016, 05:16:02 AM
Not a representation of the Staffs Opinion.

So seems like most are mixing these two together.
But the majority of the complaints i see are from Multi-ing, or Multi-ing + Botting, but not Botting itself.

1. Botting - Scripts / Triggers / Aliases / Paths / Actions, to the point your character is on autopilot grinding something out or routinely checking something, coin running, mapping the entire mud, etc.
2. Multi-ing - type fast, use zmud/cmud or other interfaces that make it easy to manually control multiple prompts, and have nice window layouts to easily and manually do this well.
3. Multi-ing + Botting - Thing the end of the world is coming, horrible, etc.

Personally i would like to tinker with my triggers, scripts, actions, aliases, paths, and more to go to full automation.  Even though im pretty close to that as it is, i am always actively watching the screen just don't like hammering 130 wpm on my mechanical keyboard at home, let alone type that fast and loud at work or elsewhere.

I dont see an issue with scenario 1 or 2, but have a little apprehension about scenario 3.  But honestly some of scenario 3 will just be people that like learning and exploring on their own, with their own characters, or dabbling in a new lua or python scripting code to fully do with a game they love and have played over the years.  And alot of scenario 3 has existed for years to this day, and dont see them causing much of a fuss other than accusations of x y or z doing it.

The main fear and complaint i see is when this is somewhat abused or just used for negativity, which is a portion or potential of scenario 3 but by no means anywhere the norm.  And people could do that anyway without botting or multing when motivated enough.

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 12, 2016, 06:31:50 AM
I like the dual server idea.
It's a horrible idea, it fragments an already thin playerbase. What will happen is the botter will be playing on both ports simultaneously. On the single char port, he will just have a completely afk bot in a group being dragged along by the leader. The botter will be focused on playing the bot port and use the knowledge acquired on the bot port to beef up his single player char that is 100% afk. People on the single char port will complain about the botter having an unfair advantage on the bot port and they will whine at a greater level than they do in this thread.

But honestly some of scenario 3 will just be people that like learning and exploring on their own, with their own characters, or dabbling in a new lua or python scripting code to fully do with a game they love and have played over the years.  And alot of scenario 3 has existed for years to this day, and dont see them causing much of a fuss other than accusations of x y or z doing it.
Malaki, this is true.

Look people, maybe yall are naive, blind, or both. But botting has been amongst yall for the better part of a decade. If anything they have contributed to the playerbase, not detracted from it.

Let me give a concrete YouTube example because everyone is speaking in doomsday hypotheticals with zero basis in fact, experience, or reality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOZhXip3y00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOZhXip3y00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35e3W3pDDk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35e3W3pDDk)

In the two YouTube examples above, 8 bots are being controlled by 1 player from 1 screen.
You can clearly see the bot control from the command line inputs.
Aemon, Royderage, Moinier, Rhonda, Hendo, Alanis, Yhonk, Kog are all bots.
With the exception of Hendo (paladin), they were all legend rank 29+. Note these logs and videos are dated 2012~2013.
So at least 4 yrs ago bots en masse have existed in the Arctic population.
I would imagine bots today are more sophisticated than bots 4 yrs ago, yet I still haven't seen mass pk by botters.
Finns have had bots for over two decades. Bots are literally walking free gear.
If anything people should be clamoring for bots because you can pk one and get all shinies in one fell swoop without wasting hours running zones.

Easy Finnish healbot summon kill.
http://normstorm.com/logs/april13_2012.txt (http://normstorm.com/logs/april13_2012.txt)

The only innocent person I know of dying to bots was due to a random (Agravaine) who got caught by druidbot and skybot area.
http://normstorm.com/logs/june12_2013.txt (http://normstorm.com/logs/june12_2013.txt)

Unless you go full retard like this Wild mage bomb squad jumping into 9 bots played by 1 person, you won't lose to bots.
http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2012.txt (http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2012.txt)

And in the last major pk, bots lost due to human ingenuity (roar).
http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2013.txt (http://normstorm.com/logs/june16_2013.txt)

Without exposing identities, I can tell you bots this wipe have been crushed by a major clan in any large semi-organized pk.

Unless folks can back up ideas with concrete data such as logs or YouTube videos, then everything else is baseless and not grounded in reality.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: newbie123321 on August 12, 2016, 07:32:49 AM
All the competitive clans! Wilds/CORE (eric fodder)/RISE are the only clans getting any eq beginning of wipe and are the only ones pking normally and have always used bots, so wtf cares about myth being scared of dennis crew you guys have way to much people anyways so dennis needs those bots to get you gramm and level the playing field ffs!
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: gulca on August 12, 2016, 08:16:51 AM
All the competitive clans! Wilds/CORE (eric fodder)/RISE are the only clans getting any eq beginning of wipe and are the only ones pking normally and have always used bots, so wtf cares about myth being scared of dennis crew you guys have way to much people anyways so dennis needs those bots to get you gramm and level the playing field ffs!

I really tried to read your running sentences, but you need to help your readers out here. use period, commas, and short sentences. paragraphs also will help.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Super Tacoman on August 12, 2016, 09:05:48 AM
Terk - What is the difference between playing 2 characters from 1 IP vs. having a mercenary that heals, bashes, picks, etc.?

one nice difference is that a mercenary doesnt steal my precious limited equipment.  or at least makes it a bit more awkward to store that equipment.

i like terks idea.

you could also make it so they wouldnt listen to you if you were pk flagged. 
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Loretta on August 12, 2016, 11:21:46 AM
Botting kill the game - allowing it would move us into state when you cant find a team at all.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Dyl on August 12, 2016, 06:51:17 PM
"I got oligooed"

It's probably time for another fund raiser/t-shirt drive.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jorake on August 12, 2016, 11:19:26 PM
Lottie... You are one of the oldest botters around! Shesh too has used many heal bots. BSP in general used a ton of bots.

Logging on to find 5 people on, no one 25+ or just differing classes(no heals). What choices do I have? Play 2 chars(multi, because I cant script for shit) So i can be able to play a little bit when i have tme to play OR log off and go play a different mud. Which Is what I've been doing!

Allowing EVERYONE to play 2 chars from the same IP would honestly make things look fuller, would fill grousp up when no one is around. Let us solo(2man) some game content so we can enjoy the game as well. And the BIGGEST BIGGEST BIGGEST REASON!!!<-- It is already and has been happening for bapting years. RISE bots like a motherbapter, CORE bots like a mother bapter, Every clan (except Myth MAYBE) has botted for so long. It hasn't stopped, it wont stop and it can't be stopped. So evening out the playing field seems like the logical next step.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: gulca on August 13, 2016, 12:42:30 AM
I'm gona take a leap here, but I think Lottie has his sarcasm hat on.

I like terk's idea on charmie, maybe as an intermittent step. charmie from items is already been coded in. there are not much to add besides the item descriptions and class stats/skills.

a big difference between a charmie and a 2nd multi is issuing commands. between action lag of the owner and the charmie itself, we limit the power of the assistant. also you can't order a charmie to enter the next room to tank.

I think the main fear of any new action/implementation is the end result of driving portion or all of the players away.

it is ultimately up to the staff to decide, but one must realize if you keep asking the same group of people the same questions you will get the same answer. unless there is a 50% change of heroes/staff/retires, you will end up with no hope of change.

over the years changes has brought players in and out of Arctic. it is a never-ending cycle. worst case a wipe of botting multi can bring is to drive out 99% of the population away... for a month or so. you can always revert back to status quo the day you deem bots are hiding at every corner waiting to jump players.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Loretta on August 13, 2016, 01:18:04 AM
Lottie... You are one of the oldest botters around! Shesh too has used many heal bots. BSP in general used a ton of bots.
I have zero bot for my whole arctic history (becouse i dont use scripts). Was multing alot manually controlling characters but its annoing as hell and i always prefer to have live person in group unstead of controlling some fresher druid or ocean myself.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 13, 2016, 04:00:24 AM
Loretta doesn't bot, he's a manual player.
Shesh only plays 1 healbot + 1 thief at a time.
Though Shesh may have scouts in every major city to make hunting faster when pk'ing.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gramm on August 13, 2016, 06:22:52 AM
All the competitive clans! Wilds/CORE (eric fodder)/RISE are the only clans getting any eq beginning of wipe and are the only ones pking normally and have always used bots, so wtf cares about myth being scared of dennis crew you guys have way to much people anyways so dennis needs those bots to get you gramm and level the playing field ffs!

I really tried to read your running sentences, but you need to help your readers out here. use period, commas, and short sentences. paragraphs also will help.

if you want to try and throw shade, show us your real name. Assuming you aren't just someone in LoS trying to draw a fight here, myth is not afraid, i am afraid for the new players im trying to teach this game to. It would absolutely be a cheap form of cheating to see the 8 man LoS group running around right now come in on a 2man myth group and use bot bashers to kill us.
Dennis doesnt need bots if he decides to hunt off little mythlings anyways, he has proven that in the past already everytime stupid fights break out. It is always the new folks in myth that end up dying, never the veteran players... so what is the point of giving him permission to use bots to come after them? Its not going to be me or my core crew that dies, its almost always new players.
Give me a reason to justify pking someone who is just beginning this game, excited and learning new shit, including how to still travel from major town to major town even....
Now picture them sitting at the tollhouse peacefully with the set they spent their last 5 logins loading and they are just sitting there coveting their first shinies ever....
Now picture someone whos been playing this game for a decade and a half with his 4 bots coming in, harvesting the new players gear for the bot horde, and then dumping the rest into a dt or something. <-------- that is precisely the shit i have dealt with in the past, and would really like you to understand so that you can quit pretending that allowing it to happen isnt a bad thing. There are plenty of baglickers kicking around who actually get a kick out of that kind of behaviour, which is hopefully by now something we are all aware of and hopefully all trying to prevent... as it is very bad in an environment where people are trying to rebuild a playerbase.


Sure if I wanted to put together an allstar exclusive lineup and not take in new people that are learning to play this game in order to help the playerbase grow back with somewhat trained people, I could run around killing a bunch of people too everytime i logged instead of learning hard zones myself and helping new players learn the easy ones... But I am not a douchebag.

Not saying that LoS has been bad at all, quite the contrary actually, if anything they have been very helpful to me personally, and a quite few of my crew actually. But to give people the RIGHT to pk a 3 man non-bot group with a bunch of bots/multiswithgoodscripting, is full blown lunacy, and im betting you are likely someone whos already been banned from the forums and mud for doing something dumb just like that. newbie123321.

If people want to dual and whatnot, im game to try and set something up. If people want to hunt me and my friends 1 player per char, thats part of the game do what you need to do, but dont cheat and wonder why you got deleted and then blame someone for complaining to an immortal about it. And certainly dont blame the imms for upholding the rules laid out for us all equally.
If you want to bot to learn and help your groups zone thats one thing and you will probably not get screwed with by anyone,but if you want to run around with a bunch of bots trying to pk because you aren't creative enough to properly prep a smaller group and or social enough to make friends to come slay your enemies, that would be a pretty pathetic and weaksauce of anyone to partake in and i personally hope there are gods around to drop immortal shits from the heavens onto the poor unsuspecting tools that would ruin the game for anyone repeatedly and intentionally especially players aspiring to learn this game and enjoy it with their friends.


Prove me wrong and lets see people not abuse the already loose leash they have been given. But I bet before this wipe is done someone will at least TRY to prove me right. If we were all hanging out in the same sandbox, wouldnt you want the dickhead that pisses all over the place thrown out too? Now im not saying they should never be allowed to come back, but until that fool is potty trained and can furthermore refrain from throwing sand at everyone else just because he can.... screw that sandbox soiling asshat.

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jorake on August 13, 2016, 03:14:18 PM
God damn that was long winded. You ready to hop off the soap box yet???

I think it boils down to the fact that it's already happening. And will continue to happen. So let's try one wipe where you can play 2 toons. See what happens.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Willoe on August 13, 2016, 04:16:14 PM
Ok I wasn't going to comment but I'm really tired of this string and want to play the voice of reason here. Yes I realize that I'm adding to the flames but hopefully it will help cool them.

1. It's happening, take your head out of the sand...whether it be in the form of multiing or mass botting, those that want to are doing it.
2. If you don't want to bot if it becomes "legal", you don't have to.
3. Real players are ALWAYS preferable to bots, unless you are Graham or Chuck who are always afk...then a bot is probably preferable.
4. Bots suck in pk, so people who are afraid that bots will run the game...lol at you
5. The only thing that "legalizing" it will do will allow those that are rule abiding folk the ability to try it, if they want.
6. Asshats will be asshats, bots or no bots. Players need to rise up and police their own game and not look for immortal intervention. With that being said there is a no asshat policy in place so if are group of players are picking on new players I would imagine that will not fly very well with staff.

My personal stance - It's already happening  and those "breaking the rules" will continue to find ways to do it. Let those who want to be rule abiding have the ability to do it as well. I do believe it should be for ZONING purposes only, and if caught in aggressive pk there should be harsh consequences.(by aggressive pk being the aggressor, not defender).

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gramm on August 13, 2016, 04:31:20 PM
yes sorry john, im done posting on this thread for everyones own good haha.

i agree with ilyas post there, allowing 1 would be great, but ilya your group is only better than bots in pk if you aren't dragging a 3/8 afk group of real players through a zone with half the group being level 25 because you are trying to xp them up
Current core is not really a fair comparison to most other clans, you have 95% of the jedi for the entire mud.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: newbie123321 on August 14, 2016, 01:56:55 AM
I'm just trying to hype you up gramm, I will remain a masked crusader! Yes I need to work on run on sentences. Thank you Gulca, I tend to forget that it makes people frustrated and makes it difficult to understand. ILYA YOU BEAUTIFUL RUSSIAN YOU!
I think we should try it for a wipe and what you said is spot on and reasonable but just for "zoning" purposes only? I do not agree and if anything the rule should be if you pk you can only bring/use 10/whatever the max group limit is only per clan.
You seem to want to play in a PVP only mud I hope they make a server there for you!
Since you could never pk WILDS even though you talked some big talk, I guess you gave up.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jorake on August 14, 2016, 02:45:53 PM
No one could pk wilds and get away with it lmao.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Bryton on August 16, 2016, 05:18:25 AM
35H 100V 1499X 0C > look
The Abyss
    The deathly still silence of the air is broken occasionally by a lone
tortured scream, chilling you to the bone and causing your skin to prickle.
The emptiness around you is the purest black you have ever seen, yet it has
no color. The empty world around you seems to shift constantly, leaving you
dizzy and confused, wondering how you ever got here, and how you could
possibly leave. You feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end,
and suddenly you feel as though someone, or something, is watching you,
waiting...
Blood flows eternally from a fountain here in the emptiness of the Abyss.
A blackened bulletin board materializes from nothingness.
Brytonthree the Male Human is sitting here.
Brytonfour the Male Human is sitting here.
Brytontwo the Male Silvanesti is sitting here.
A black robed man stands here, patiently awaiting the Dark Queen's return.


Just a warning to everyone, you can't bot or multi. Yet.....
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: breiner on August 16, 2016, 06:33:17 PM
Ah, yes we can. Didn't you read the fine print? Everyone can bot and multi, except Bryton.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: botter on August 16, 2016, 07:06:15 PM
I'd like to throw in my two cents.

I fall into another obscure category... where I like to write bots for academic's sake. Back in the day, I wrote one that could do all the low level zones around all the major cities, auto-roll any class, etc. I didn't have any nefarious reasons or goals of personal gain. I just liked the programming challenge. It ran by itself for itself. Then I got caught.

If we could register a bot (perhaps with a bot clan), with the understanding it couldn't group with anyone, couldn't pk (but could be pk'd), etc, that'd interest me into coming back to the game.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Attai on August 17, 2016, 03:13:34 AM
I haven't played in the last couple wipes but my last 2 wipes I multi'd and used aliases to run my healer + warrior no scripts.  The only reason I did it was because I was behind on the wipe, had very limited time and needed to level a usable character.  They were honestly my most fun wipes.  I think I played Kahn and Uded and Attai and Jaki as my characters.  It was a challenge but some of the most fun i've had in this game.

If they allowed multi'ing and lowered the XP down to previous levels I might even come back and play again.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Rhys on August 17, 2016, 03:50:25 AM
35H 100V 1499X 0C > look
The Abyss
    The deathly still silence of the air is broken occasionally by a lone
tortured scream, chilling you to the bone and causing your skin to prickle.
The emptiness around you is the purest black you have ever seen, yet it has
no color. The empty world around you seems to shift constantly, leaving you
dizzy and confused, wondering how you ever got here, and how you could
possibly leave. You feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end,
and suddenly you feel as though someone, or something, is watching you,
waiting...
Blood flows eternally from a fountain here in the emptiness of the Abyss.
A blackened bulletin board materializes from nothingness.
Brytonthree the Male Human is sitting here.
Brytonfour the Male Human is sitting here.
Brytontwo the Male Silvanesti is sitting here.
A black robed man stands here, patiently awaiting the Dark Queen's return.


Just a warning to everyone, you can't bot or multi. Yet.....



Based on what I have read from other posts, you can but you just need to do it better.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Bryton on August 17, 2016, 09:19:20 PM
I'm guessing it was my choice of character names that gave it away
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Zalm on August 18, 2016, 02:52:57 AM
Nothing  has contributed more to the  continuing decline of the playerbase like botting and players who bot.
I'd prefer zero tolerance , but the imms never had the desire to enforce zero tolerance for whatever reasons.
Start deleting... they'll stop.

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jorake on August 18, 2016, 03:28:58 AM
Start deleting who? Do you know how many people bot? Do you know who they are? How can you police something with zero tolerance when there is 0 ways to stop it? You can't even site ban people anymore!

The main reason I want to be able to multi, is I want to be able to do something when there is no one on. Should i be forced to not play when I log and see 4 other people on? "You can group those 4 people" And if they don't want to group? So im forced to log off...?

The main reason being: It's already being done on a massive scale. And I have yet to hear one person say they quit because someone else they dont even bapting play with bots/multis.

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 18, 2016, 03:47:53 AM
Nothing  has contributed more to the  continuing decline of the playerbase like botting and players who bot.

You are confusing cause and effect.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Zalm on August 18, 2016, 04:53:47 AM
@Oligo ....
No I'm not confusing anything...
Bots and bot players shit in the nest. Now they get to sleep in it.

@jorake
Nobody cares about bots on a 5 char mud.
Nobody cares about bots clearing Thorbardin.
We're talking about 10 char bot pk clans that want/willing to grief   
We're talking about all the newer players over time that never found an entry space into a  group, thanks to bots
and btw botting/multiing  is such an easy check....

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Kir on August 18, 2016, 06:02:19 AM
Nothing  has contributed more to the  continuing decline of the playerbase like botting and players who bot.
I'd prefer zero tolerance , but the imms never had the desire to enforce zero tolerance for whatever reasons.
Start deleting... they'll stop.

ya actually i think when botting went unchecked this game was the most popular its ever been. There were 50+ people and 4-5 active clans at the END of a pwipe as opposed to when the Hoss regime took over and started deleting people they didn't like and accused them of botting or asshattery or whatever bullshit excuse. Since the Hoss regime took over this has been a dead game after the first 1-2 months of a pwipe and I don't really think that could be disputed.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: newbie123321 on August 18, 2016, 09:31:24 AM
Nothing  has contributed more to the  continuing decline of the playerbase like botting and players who bot.
I'd prefer zero tolerance , but the imms never had the desire to enforce zero tolerance for whatever reasons.
Start deleting... they'll stop.

ya actually i think when botting went unchecked this game was the most popular its ever been. There were 50+ people and 4-5 active clans at the END of a pwipe as opposed to when the Hoss regime took over and started deleting people they didn't like and accused them of botting or asshattery or whatever bullshit excuse. Since the Hoss regime took over this has been a dead game after the first 1-2 months of a pwipe and I don't really think that could be disputed.

AGREED SIR KIR Agreed, Well SAID! hear! hear!
botting/multi-ing, this has happen every wipe if you want to cry about it most people who do are in clans or have been in groups with them and actually have botters/multi playing and have no bapting idea or maybe they do and those people cannot say they did not have a good time being able to play the game with a group. Now those groups/clans have an advantage on most of us, so if you allow Botting, people will have a chance to get gear and defend gear and have a real fighting chance against those who will continue to do so. Plus allowing this would create a new style of play, without being afraid to do so. If you have not tried mult-ing it is because you have been too chicken shit to do so and if you tried it out you would see it is actually fun being able to play without restrictions, being able to try out multiple classes/races at a time and being able to literally play with yourself! With that being said, You can't tell me that playing with yourself sometimes is bad!
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: btown on August 18, 2016, 01:34:31 PM
Is it possible to integrate bot scripts in to the game for easier botting?

One thing i've hated about good botters is im not one,  it would be much more appealing if it was as easy as off and on for certain things.  Inputing scripts is not something I have a clue about
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Lewis on August 18, 2016, 01:39:24 PM
Allow it!

I don't consider myself a good player, I've never been clanned. 90% of my fun in this game is exploring/walking around reading and searching for stuff and figuring out quests etc.

I don't care about PVP, I've killed/been killed a lot but that's it, none of your holy and fabulous clan wars.

Gooooood luck finding a group in this game when you're not clanned with so few people online.

Allow me to multi/bot and you've just expanded the number of stuff I'm gonna try to go check again. You know, all thoses notes on paper (Come back with help one day)

/plead
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Rinad on August 18, 2016, 07:16:33 PM
 
[/quote]
If you have not tried mult-ing it is because you have been too chicken shit to do so and if you tried it out you would see it is actually fun being able to play without restrictions, being able to try out multiple classes/races at a time and being able to literally play with yourself! With that being said, You can't tell me that playing with yourself sometimes is bad!
[/quote]

Just because I've never had the urge to CHEAT and use another bot or multi, doesn't meant I'm chicken shit.  I'm sure several other players like Zalm, feel the same.  It means I actually have ethics.   I know several other players here for the last 20 years have been quite successful at playing without this need for help.  If I had my legend cleric/barb, I wouldn't need a group ever and would be able to 2 man most of the game.  So it makes no difference that I haven't tried it. I could try crack rock too because of peer pressure, but you don't see me running down to get some coke and make freebase out of it.  It seems like the ones that are for botting are the ones who've used this crutch for years.  Time to throw away the training wheels and learn to play without helpers.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: newbie123321 on August 19, 2016, 03:58:58 AM

If you have not tried mult-ing it is because you have been too chicken shit to do so and if you tried it out you would see it is actually fun being able to play without restrictions, being able to try out multiple classes/races at a time and being able to literally play with yourself! With that being said, You can't tell me that playing with yourself sometimes is bad!
[/quote]

Just because I've never had the urge to CHEAT and use another bot or multi, doesn't meant I'm chicken shit.  I'm sure several other players like Zalm, feel the same.  It means I actually have ethics.   I know several other players here for the last 20 years have been quite successful at playing without this need for help.  If I had my legend cleric/barb, I wouldn't need a group ever and would be able to 2 man most of the game.  So it makes no difference that I haven't tried it. I could try crack rock too because of peer pressure, but you don't see me running down to get some coke and make freebase out of it.  It seems like the ones that are for botting are the ones who've used this crutch for years.  Time to throw away the training wheels and learn to play without helpers.
[/quote]

I apologize for calling out those who have not chicken I am just trying to use reverse psychology here, now bapting make it legal for one wipe! 2 toons per player!!!!
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: puff on August 19, 2016, 06:29:51 PM
Everyone knows that I have some sort of strange OCD fascination with rolling warriors. I've done it manually (without multi-ing or botting) the entire time. I have a problem.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 19, 2016, 08:00:41 PM
I've done it manually (without multi-ing or botting) the entire time. I have a problem.

No lie, but I roll chars manually too.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Thymorical on August 19, 2016, 09:12:33 PM
If we do allow botting... it will be like 10 myth clans running around mass ripping all day instead of just one. Thats all that will really happen..
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gramm on August 19, 2016, 09:27:50 PM
10 angry myth clans that hunt eachother then unite to mass trigger on entry kill at the tollhouse for 100 massacres!
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Pyder on August 19, 2016, 09:56:54 PM
What about a game-sanctioned "helper" bot as an alternative to a player controlled bot?
Now don't shoot me just yet, but like, if you're soloing you can go recruit some healer, tank or dps or whatever "helper" in some cities for a cost?
Like a companion....

Yeah I know, there has to be some smarts programmed into this helper so it's not completely useless, and it can be done no problem... Would that maybe be the way around people botting? Maybe, if the bots are worth anything... It would be available to everyone, and all the haters would be happy with the fact that multying/botting is forbidden, but you could still have the benefit of some backup if you're a solo kind of person, or just happen to be out of friends to do something you need to do on a perticular day?

Just an idea :)

Flame away!
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: gulca on August 19, 2016, 11:56:05 PM
If we do allow botting... it will be like 10 myth clans running around mass ripping all day instead of just one. Thats all that will really happen..

one day they will learn jumping off solace tree achieves the same result with much easier CR.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: monty on August 20, 2016, 04:11:35 AM
Let em Multi.

Hell people have been doing it for wipes upon wipes upon wipes anyways.

Just let it happen and see how it goes.

Bot's arent all that great in PK situations anyways and so what it people can do every zone with only a few players online? Isnt the game itself dwindled down to such a small base of players already that its not going to hurt anything.

Old rules for a different game.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Toinu on August 20, 2016, 04:34:26 PM
For the one asking about the code and how it's done, since i have played a MUD that allowed multi'ing and encouraged it, ZMUD allows multiple windows to be opened at the same time. Here's how it really works:

*** ZMUD mud list ***

1) Go to the zmud mud list. Create a connection to arctic mud. This will be your basic configuration file for all your players. You won't play per say with this connection. Right-click/properties, look at subfolder and primary file. Something like subfolder "arcticmud" and primary file "articmud.mud". Load/save generic scripts to this connection and you will see how it will apply to all your players.

2) Create your 1st player. Create a new connection to arctic mud. Right-click/properties, it has 3 sections:

- MUD: Make sure Icon/Session ID is your player name. ZMUD screws this up when you create it;
- Character: Put your name and password if you want a generic script to automate login by using something like #TRIGGER {^What is your name?} {#SEND #USERNAME} or something like that. I forgot. But that allows you to auto-login all your chars just by clicking on them. Watch out for newlines and such so you don't get triggered by players to send it.
- Files: This is where it happens. Make the subfolder the same as in 1). Use in the INHERITED section the same as in 1) (ie, articmud.mud). Then for primary file, make it your player name. Ie, Toinu.mud. When you make modifications to this player in game script-wise, only toinu.mud is changed. But it also inherits all scripts from 1).

3) Create 2nd player, follow same guideline as 2).

4) So... how does this all fit in? Open your zmud mud list, click on every char, a tab opens up for every one of them, and they can all auto-login to boot. Switch player by clicking on the tabs that opened. It's like a windows taskbar.

*** ZMUD commands ***

#ALL sends the same command to all windows. Ie, #ALL drink water.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Toinu on August 20, 2016, 05:14:44 PM
How multi'ing worked is that bosses were given IP levels. If you were above that IP level (#multi with same IP) in the same room as the boss he would cast deadly area spells. Illegal multi'ing became logging characters from other IPs to bypass that.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: eddiex on August 21, 2016, 12:06:28 AM
How multi'ing worked is that bosses were given IP levels. If you were above that IP level (#multi with same IP) in the same room as the boss he would cast deadly area spells. Illegal multi'ing became logging characters from other IPs to bypass that.

This honestly sounds amazing. I really am not of the ilk that it is hard to spot bot squads. Maybe not 100% effective but if you've played with people who use them, there are very obvious indicators and tests you can do. Not sure how difficult it would be to add this code or if any imms are willing to step up and be an unbiased bot squad nazi. Imm me and give me the power to investigate lol.

Don't even need to delete them if there is reasonable suspicion, just drop entire squad in dt. They will learn not to cheat or risk having their time wasted.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: JTPimpin on August 21, 2016, 09:17:28 PM
thats a bad idea because there are some people who play from the same ip. ill have 2 people on my ip this wipe but its my brother not a multi.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Gramm on August 21, 2016, 11:56:05 PM
To all the people who keep trying to convince us all that bots arent that good at pk, i call bullshit, 2 healer types set to autoheal someone at fair is pretty damned cheat, dont kid yourselves, bots can be very efficient if the person behind them is as brilliant as half of the people ive met on this game. I would go as far as to say its actually stronger and more efficient than human healing in most cases.

If the only way to defeat a bot group is with bashers that are not always available.... while the bots are ALWAYS available... bots will likely win quite a few battles against real players... you can fool a few people im sure with the inferiority claims, but I have witnessed what good bots can do....and i call shenanigans on anyone who says they are inferior, it all depends on the puppetmaster folks. and the intended target(s).
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: eddiex on August 21, 2016, 11:57:18 PM
I think you misunderstand the post JT. The poster was presenting an idea for making limited IP based multiing legal, though I suppose it could pose a problem if you are one of the few people who play Arctic in the same residence as another.

@gramm good point. And before Oligo comes in here telling us all how all you have to do is one round the group leader. Easier said than done, particularly if they do decide to reduce pvp damage by any percentage.

A no bash bot healer with 16-20 heals? Hello Troggs, good game. (forgot about that guy, didn't you Zozen?)

But all you have to do is land a stun...

Seems there are a lot of contingencies you must make to render a bot squad ineffective.

I.e. How to have a shot at killing anyone with Aymahn, Bloat, Jaune grouped? Requires at least 3 legend bashers with bash triggers. Punch leader, bash assigned target and hope their bot  basher doesn't render one of your bashers ineffective. And good luck if their Druid is legend and has healing cloud stacked with healing done.

And while you have to orchestrate and coordinate so many things just to viably defend yourself against a sophisticated bot group, rest assured, he has the difficult task of typing a few commands to adjust his settings when he logs on.

Oligo is amazing at what he does.  I think he suggested people want to allow only two chars at once because that's what they have experience with and playing more characters becomes increasingly more difficult.  Not exactly the case. Although someone had to develop class specific coding, none of that matters in real time.

If the immortals decide to allow hire-able npc(s) as one imm suggested, they would be wise to inquire if Oligo is interested in developing it. These npcs should be no less powerful in any degree than a legendary <insert class here>. If they are not, we are left with the same inequitable situation where rule conforming players are @ a disadvantage to system abusers.

I think some people who have shown support for a 2 multi per IP system actually have a better reason than being incompetent in the ability to operate more than 2. There is a new dynamic to playing two characters simultaneously (without full automation) that some people find enjoyable (myself included the relatively few times i have done this). 2 chars is sufficient for increasing your zoning capability 10 fold (as opposed to solo, i.e. Try to solo storms, dko, ft, etc vs. two man [only one of these will be successful unless you are prepped to the teeth and loaded with EQ]).

It is the minimum compromise to allow people the ability to play this game in times with extremely low population, without handing away the keys to the kingdom and having a bot free for all.

Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 22, 2016, 01:06:44 AM
Humans beat bots every time in PvP in evenly matched situations with enough ingenuity. Typing a simple four letter word such as roar will do the trick.


453H 148V 1X 72.03% 5760C [Me:Good] [Lulu:V.Good] Mem:1 Exits:NESW>

Gran roars.
Mondrian shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Mondrian panics, and attempts to flee.
Mondrian flies west.
Veigar shrieks in terror!
Veigar panics, and attempts to flee.
Veigar flies south.
Moinier shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Moinier panics, and attempts to flee.
You feel a slight chill.
Royderage shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Royderage panics, and attempts to flee.
Royderage flies south.
Chorillo shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Chorillo panics, and attempts to flee.
Chorillo flies west.
Yhonk shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Inverse shrieks in terror!
Inverse panics, and attempts to flee.
Inverse flies north.
Swibelgluck shrieks in terror!
Swibelgluck panics, and attempts to flee.
Swibelgluck flies south.

453H 148V 1X 72.03% 5760C [Me:Good] [Lulu:V.Good] Mem:1 Exits:NESW>
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: eddiex on August 22, 2016, 01:08:31 AM
Hey smart guy. Make your bots keep cloak of bravery up. You're welcome.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Oligo on August 22, 2016, 01:12:09 AM
Hey smart guy. Make your bots keep cloak of bravery up. You're welcome.

I'm not saying roar will work today, but I'm sure folks can think of other tactics.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Zozen on August 22, 2016, 02:20:02 AM
@gramm good point. And before Oligo comes in here telling us all how all you have to do is one round the group leader. Easier said than done, particularly if they do decide to reduce pvp damage by any percentage.

A no bash bot healer with 16-20 heals? Hello Troggs, good game. (forgot about that guy, didn't you Zozen?)

Nah, I didn't forget about Konstantin. Not sure I would call him a "bot" since he was behind the keyboard at all times on only one character that I was aware of. Script healing is always going to be superior to human healing.   Scripted healers with nobash have proven themselves throughout the ages. I played around with Lasse's heal script at one point a dozen or so years ago and realized that it took away from the game that I love. When you don't have to think at all about healing then it made the game incredibly boring. Leading and healing without using triggers or gagging anything and no output windows and using very simple aliases--first 3 letters of a name--made zoning fun for me... What I loved about leading/healing was that it took an incredible amount of concentration to do it well and having killed everything (up to when I retired) in the game and done every major fight in the game I feel like it was worthwhile.

Bot/scripted healers (either with someone at keyboard or not) will always be superior to human healers if the script is good.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: eddiex on August 22, 2016, 03:09:21 AM
I agree 100% with the idea that takes away from my intrinsic experience playing this game.  I too use minimal actions and very few aliases (even in the times when I have played two characters) and enjoy the raw playing experience.

I was merely pointing out that it is a slippery slope.  1 live player to a character but nearly fully automated, does not necessarily require any attentiveness. What happens when 5 or more are fully scripted, at the keyboard but are playing LoL while the leader drives the train.  Where do we draw the line as a community?  If advanced scripting is considered acceptable, then how do you definitively determine if a real player is behind they keyboard or a bot on a proxy?

I have no issues with scripting, botting, multiing, if that is the accepted convention of the game.  However, if the staff chooses to continue the complete ban, how do they intend to enforce it (so that there wont be inequitable benefits for those who get away with it or are turned a blind eye to and those who abide by the rules or are punished for breaking them)?

I know it's a lot to ask.  In my opinion, enough positive steps have been taken to renew my interest in the game regardless of the outcome of this issue.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Zozen on August 22, 2016, 03:21:38 AM

I was merely pointing out that it is a slippery slope.

I agree.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jarrad on August 22, 2016, 07:35:53 PM
Firstly there is only one point here that matters. Imms do not have time or resources to hunt down every bot or multi. IF YOU CANT STOP IT DONT TRY.

Secondly this game has been continuously coded in such a way that automation and scripting is easier and easier. There is no reason why the game should prompt you to punch or kick or use your instincts etc. The group command has been continuously fine tuned for heal scripts etc  this makes me believe there is unspoken encouragement for botting and scripting by those who have developed this game.

Finally I remember many wipes ago using whispering wind to make wild healers, might have even been troggs, heal cyan bloodbane. As oligo has pointed out bots can be bapted up, not necessarily easily, but if you can get the bot to read the right txt you can make it do surprising things (if the coder hasn't done his job properly)
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Dafin on August 22, 2016, 09:11:16 PM
There is no reason why the game should prompt you to punch or kick or use your instincts etc. The group command has been continuously fine tuned for heal scripts etc  this makes me believe there is unspoken encouragement for botting and scripting by those who have developed this game.
Prompt for punch and instincts actually helps manual player more, because bot can just set a timer for the cooldown and it will track it much better than human. Same with group command, group stop especially.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: JTPimpin on August 23, 2016, 01:59:28 PM
I think you misunderstand the post JT. The poster was presenting an idea for making limited IP based multiing legal, though I suppose it could pose a problem if you are one of the few people who play Arctic in the same residence as another.

i was just referring to the fact that i (who has never multied) would not like to run into a boss who is going to go ape shit crazy on me just because someone is playing arctic in the same household.
Title: Re: Multi-ing / Botting
Post by: Jarrad on August 23, 2016, 06:48:05 PM
And as a manual player if the game doesn't prompt you to use a skill you won't use it?