Arctic Mud

ArcticMUD => General Discussion => Topic started by: reed23 on August 05, 2021, 02:40:50 PM

Title: Alt Classes
Post by: reed23 on August 05, 2021, 02:40:50 PM
It seems that thiefs, scouts, DKs, and even mages have a hard time finding their way into groups because of the 8 man limit. 

Proposal - increase group limit to 9 if one of the above classes is part of the group.  If you only have barb/paladin, healer, shaman, druid, basher, etc., group limit stays at 8.

This kind of system actually happened back in the day when group limits were 12, but if the leader of the group was lvl 30, the group limit was expanded to 13.

I haven't seen a thief/scout in a group in years.  The classes are fun to play but aren't nearly as effective as others.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: corey on August 06, 2021, 02:29:43 AM
It seems that thiefs, scouts, DKs, and even mages have a hard time finding their way into groups because of the 8 man limit. 

Proposal - increase group limit to 9 if one of the above classes is part of the group.  If you only have barb/paladin, healer, shaman, druid, basher, etc., group limit stays at 8.

This kind of system actually happened back in the day when group limits were 12, but if the leader of the group was lvl 30, the group limit was expanded to 13.

I haven't seen a thief/scout in a group in years.  The classes are fun to play but aren't nearly as effective as others.

We regularly had these classes in our groups and did all the content. Maybe it's just class choice in your friend circle?
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: reed23 on August 06, 2021, 07:13:51 PM
You've brought a thief/scout to Cyan?
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Hoodoo on August 06, 2021, 08:16:58 PM
Scouts have tanked Cyan.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Nom on August 06, 2021, 09:42:23 PM
So have mages and druids...for half a round.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Caine on August 06, 2021, 09:49:28 PM
I could go both ways on this. If we're talking about 'normal' zoning in easy areas, then I don't think selective increases are the way to go. I would much rather prefer a straight-up group size increase. It would be easier to understand and implement.

However, if we're talking about boss fights and endgame content like Cyan (like what's being mentioned here) then I'm of a mixed mind. Part of what makes these fights challenging (still) is that there is little else in the game where you really have to be picky about what classes you bring. If Cyan isn't smooth sailing with a solid group of 8 (with no offclasses) it surely isn't going to be easier if you replace your paladin or druid with a mage. But if you increased group size at all, even selectively, you're more than likely only making the fight easier. If I could go to Cyan with a free extra DK in my group, why wouldn't I? Doubly so if I could hook it up with a Wyrm Biter or other spec weapon.

Most of the difficulty in this game is 'X boss hits hard', 'X boss has lots of HP', or 'X boss stuns a lot', and that's unavoidably going to mean that there are optimal and suboptimal classes. Sure you could have a scout tank cyan, but that doesn't mean it's a good choice. There's not much that can be done about that. But in my eyes that's more to do with the structure of fight difficulty than an issue with the classes.

Thieves and mages are excellent classes, they just don't work that well at Cyan in particular.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Hoodoo on August 06, 2021, 09:54:06 PM
*sigh* True, but intentionally missing the point. At least one ocean has, intentionally and with purpose, tanked Cyan to completion.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: corey on August 07, 2021, 02:35:38 PM
You've brought a thief/scout to Cyan?

Yea both. I think it was in same group a few times too.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: corey on August 07, 2021, 02:49:12 PM
You've brought a thief/scout to Cyan?

Yea both. I think it was in same group a few times too.

Just realised you mentioned DKs too. We regularly had two DKs in our main group as well.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Lloth on August 07, 2021, 11:42:32 PM
I don't think this game needs an increase in group size. Maybe your clan mates need to make different characters or play something that's not so standard. Mages for example have been made ridiculously strong this wipe with just a few good CL items and ranks. They bring a lot of bonuses and utility to a group. I don't go out looking for groups but I can't imagine why anyone would decline taking a mage. Thieves are great dmg dealers in groups, they are just boring as shit without flank. DKs also come with great utility and dmg output. Scouts.....well they evade and do a shit ton of dmg.

All classes are good, some could use love.i follow a simple rule when I do group. And that's "bring the player, not the class"
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Jorake on August 09, 2021, 01:36:32 AM
I'd bring an ocean to cyan all day. Geared ocean hits nice. Instincts also do nice damage, they passively and intentionally heal themselves. It's solid.

But im all for making groups of 10 or even 12 again. More the merrier.

Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: corey on August 09, 2021, 03:23:58 AM
I'd bring an ocean to cyan all day. Geared ocean hits nice. Instincts also do nice damage, they passively and intentionally heal themselves. It's solid.

But im all for making groups of 10 or even 12 again. More the merrier.

I'd bring an ocean to Cyan but only because I could, not because they're good. This is just something I wanted to point out because the classes I'd mentioned before are actually good.

The only class that I wouldn't bring over an ocean is a sky.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Vespin on August 09, 2021, 09:07:31 PM
It seems that thiefs, scouts, DKs, and even mages have a hard time finding their way into groups because of the 8 man limit. 

Proposal - increase group limit to 9 if one of the above classes is part of the group.  If you only have barb/paladin, healer, shaman, druid, basher, etc., group limit stays at 8.

This kind of system actually happened back in the day when group limits were 12, but if the leader of the group was lvl 30, the group limit was expanded to 13.

I haven't seen a thief/scout in a group in years.  The classes are fun to play but aren't nearly as effective as others.

reed:

Your classes you think are under-represented were all literally part of our core zoning group, and our ideal cyan group last wipe when we were doing it every other day.  Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're not viable. The game doesn't need to be changed to fit your play style.  They are very viable.  Also, a few weeks ago, I did cyan with 5 characters total.  one was a dk.  so your proposed increase in group sizes really doesn't resonate for me.  Very much as Lloth said, "you don't bring the character. you bring the player."  I've taken my thief to cyan every wipe i've played for the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: reed23 on August 12, 2021, 07:49:14 PM
It's been fun listening to everyone's war stories about doing end game on a sky scout, ocean scout, white robe, 3 DKS, thief, and red robe.  I stand corrected and look forward to rushing an Ocean and Barb!
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Hoodoo on August 12, 2021, 08:28:39 PM
Ocean/barb is secret Myth power strat. Good to see Reed respects the genius.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: corey on August 12, 2021, 11:01:55 PM
It's been fun listening to everyone's war stories about doing end game on a sky scout, ocean scout, white robe, 3 DKS, thief, and red robe.  I stand corrected and look forward to rushing an Ocean and Barb!

For the love of all that's holy and your own sanity, do not play an ocean. They're such hot shit garbage
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Hoodoo on August 13, 2021, 05:07:50 PM
A. Depends on what you do with them.
B. Not every class responds as well to having the best 10 items in the game hung off of them; some will be better than others in that very specific use case.  You only play in that very specific use case.

For those who have to do more with less, ocean actually responds quite well.

I do understand the frustration you had when you thought you'd discovered the new hotness with your ocean tank theory, though.  You were excited about the idea for about 10 minutes. :)
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: corey on August 13, 2021, 08:02:36 PM
A. Depends on what you do with them.
B. Not every class responds as well to having the best 10 items in the game hung off of them; some will be better than others in that very specific use case.  You only play in that very specific use case.

For those who have to do more with less, ocean actually responds quite well.

I do understand the frustration you had when you thought you'd discovered the new hotness with your ocean tank theory, though.  You were excited about the idea for about 10 minutes. :)

I knew they were junky and I was very excited yea. All the way to legend (R6? I don't recall). Then I had almost the best possible gear to make it happen and it was still awful.

They just lack in every area.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: mpriki on September 21, 2021, 03:36:05 PM
Alt classes dk-scout-thief ?
Get a cleric, a tank and 6 more, really just anything...
Then zone ..... Simple? Just dont go with 7 casters in nomagic fights.
Title: Re: Alt Classes
Post by: Nostramazos on September 26, 2021, 03:37:12 PM
Ocean/barb is secret Myth power strat. Good to see Reed respects the genius.

You tried Ocean/Barb duo? I did Ocean/Paladin duo. Thoroughly enjoyed it.