Author Topic: attribute reduction  (Read 14005 times)

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Super Tacoman

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attribute reduction
« on: November 24, 2015, 11:03:40 AM »
with the max group size lowering, shouldnt individual characters be made a bit stronger to compensate?

Hoodoo

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2015, 11:19:01 AM »
Nope.

Chisul

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2015, 04:49:10 PM »
A bit stronger than a paladin and shaman basically two manning everything in the game??? Uhhh, nope.

Sanjuro

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2015, 05:43:19 PM »
i'm happy to make some mobs a bit harder if you're concerned. or, better yet, add unlimited spawning undeads to every zone. yes, i like that idea ...

Super Tacoman

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 08:54:20 PM »
i'm happy to make some mobs a bit harder if you're concerned. or, better yet, add unlimited spawning undeads to every zone. yes, i like that idea ...

i guess it sounds like everyone thinks the game is much too easy!  better go for it.

relethane

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 09:08:04 PM »
Quote
i guess it sounds like everyone thinks the game is much too easy!  better go for it.

Yep, all the people who thought the game was too hard quit long ago.  The 4 people who are left want it to be harder.

Super Tacoman

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2015, 09:22:57 AM »

Yep, all the people who thought the game was too hard quit long ago.  The 4 people who are left want it to be harder.

nearly all of the changes in this game have always been for the elite players.  the normal players and the noobs are ignored. 

but i suppose it is too late to worry about that now.  as you said there aren't too many casual players left.

relethane

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2015, 05:32:58 PM »
Quote
nearly all of the changes in this game have always been for the elite players.  the normal players and the noobs are ignored. 

but i suppose it is too late to worry about that now.  as you said there aren't too many casual players left.

It's a really interesting paradox that in one sense in order to evolve your game into a great one you should keep adhering to the requests of your most dedicated player base ( 'cause they know the game the best) but in doing so you're actually screwing your game up for the masses ( 'cause your dedicated players only want changes that preserve their top tier status - like making +stat loads more important).  Takes a very firm hand at the top level, and while I'm sure most would agree that Arctic's leadership is at it's most fair yet, we're still seeing - dare I say it - republican trickle down economics - being applied even now.  Onward! Let the power belong to those who already know how to pop it!

eddiex

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2015, 07:27:46 PM »
Quote
nearly all of the changes in this game have always been for the elite players.  the normal players and the noobs are ignored. 

but i suppose it is too late to worry about that now.  as you said there aren't too many casual players left.

It's a really interesting paradox that in one sense in order to evolve your game into a great one you should keep adhering to the requests of your most dedicated player base ( 'cause they know the game the best) but in doing so you're actually screwing your game up for the masses ( 'cause your dedicated players only want changes that preserve their top tier status - like making +stat loads more important).  Takes a very firm hand at the top level, and while I'm sure most would agree that Arctic's leadership is at it's most fair yet, we're still seeing - dare I say it - republican trickle down economics - being applied even now.  Onward! Let the power belong to those who already know how to pop it!

I think this idea is completely off-base and out of touch with the current situation in the game.  Dedicated players only want changes that preserve their top tier status...  I find it hard to believe that lower base character stats is what is keeping you away from bridging the gap into becoming a better player.  Do you realize most of the top tier players in this game don't even roll for stats in the beginning of a wipe?  The immortals doing development stated that it gives the creators more flexibility when creating gear and makes +stat gear more important.  I doubt there was any elite players pounding the table for lowering overall stats.

Do you realize that the game has become significantly easier over the course of the last ten years with the implementation and evolution of Legendary characters? The direction of this game has increasingly closed the gap between needing elite equip to complete the vast majority of this game and needing just enough legendary characters. 

Reducing the group size by 2 is the first step the staff has made toward making the game slightly more difficult in some time.  The fact is, this game is not and has not been growing for years.  Making the game more challenging and thus more entertaining for those who remain is the most sensible thing to do.  I guarantee very few at the top tier of this player base could give a rats testicle about 'preserving their edge'.  They definitely are not lobbying the immortals to make changes to keep the underlings down.

Step your game up bro. If you're garbage at this game, you probably have not put in enough time or do not understand the fundamentals in order to develop as a player.  Find a mentor.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 07:29:56 PM by eddiex »

Hoodoo

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2015, 07:33:01 PM »
Haven't said this in a while... but I agree completely with Eddie. Well said. 

Super Tacoman

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2015, 08:09:28 PM »

I think this idea is completely off-base and out of touch with the current situation in the game.  Dedicated players only want changes that preserve their top tier status...  I find it hard to believe that lower base character stats is what is keeping you away from bridging the gap into becoming a better player.  Do you realize most of the top tier players in this game don't even roll for stats in the beginning of a wipe?  The immortals doing development stated that it gives the creators more flexibility when creating gear and makes +stat gear more important.  I doubt there was any elite players pounding the table for lowering overall stats.

Do you realize that the game has become significantly easier over the course of the last ten years with the implementation and evolution of Legendary characters? The direction of this game has increasingly closed the gap between needing elite equip to complete the vast majority of this game and needing just enough legendary characters. 

Reducing the group size by 2 is the first step the staff has made toward making the game slightly more difficult in some time.  The fact is, this game is not and has not been growing for years.  Making the game more challenging and thus more entertaining for those who remain is the most sensible thing to do.  I guarantee very few at the top tier of this player base could give a rats testicle about 'preserving their edge'.  They definitely are not lobbying the immortals to make changes to keep the underlings down.

Step your game up bro. If you're garbage at this game, you probably have not put in enough time or do not understand the fundamentals in order to develop as a player.  Find a mentor.

i hear you eddiex, but you might be a bit out of touch with how far the elite have left casual players behind in this game. 

i have made it to legendary once.  some of my friends have never had a legendary character.  i suppose this makes me garbage at the game... but i dont care.  i still love this game and can have great fun at it.  obviously there are other players like me.  there used to be a lot more.  and every change in the game seems to make it harder for us to play.

i could 'step up my game' and join a clan and type assist until i am strong.  but i like to do things for myself.  joining a clan doesnt interest me at all.

i understand for most of the players that remain, a bigger challenge is welcome.  but you should also understand every such change makes it harder for us garbage players to play the game.

eddiex

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2015, 08:43:06 PM »
The fact that you believe it is necessary to join a clan to obtain legendary or step your game up is exactly the problem.  I know there are players that exist that have trouble legending characters.  And I am completely out of touch with that, because I can legend one in a week.  I know what it takes.  It's no magic trick.  It's called time and dedication.  If you understand the fundamental mechanics of the game (or spend your limited time learning how they work), you too could have a legendary character every wipe.  There is a ton of content available for casual players.  Most areas in this game were designed for non-legendary characters.

I have no way of understanding how a casual player has any expectation of succeeding in Arctic without investing time.  This is a game that takes time. Thousands of hours to master.  I don't really have an answer for someone who refuses to seek help (in the form of mentoring, clans, or camaraderie).  Most, if not all of the players who play at a high level have had help.

What do you suggest the immortals do to address your issue?  What exactly is your issue with how the game is being run?  It sounds like a personal problem with not investing time into something you want to succeed and thrive at.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 08:50:28 PM by eddiex »

Super Tacoman

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2015, 09:06:00 PM »
The fact that you believe it is necessary to join a clan to obtain legendary or step your game up is exactly the problem.  I know there are players that exist that have trouble legending characters.  And I am completely out of touch with that, because I can legend one in a week.  I know what it takes.  It's no magic trick.  It's called time and dedication.  If you understand the fundamental mechanics of the game (or spend your limited time learning how they work), you too could have a legendary character every wipe.  There is a ton of content available for casual players.  Most areas in this game were designed for non-legendary characters.

I have no way of understanding how a casual player has any expectation of succeeding in Arctic without investing time.  This is a game that takes time. Thousands of hours to master.  I don't really have an answer for someone who refuses to seek help (in the form of mentoring, clans, or camaraderie).  Most, if not all of the players who play at a high level have had help.

What do you suggest the immortals do to address your issue?  I don't really see it as a mudwide problem.  It sounds like a personal problem with not investing time into something you want to succeed and thrive at.


i am not suggesting they do anything.  the game is good.  i got pretty far last wipe almost legendary.  i just wish i wasnt going to be weaker next wipe. 

your definition of 'succeeding' on arctic and mine are a lot different i believe.  i am only looking for fun.

its just a personal problem.  :D

Chisul

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2015, 09:48:00 PM »
Having a mentor serves to speed up the learning process. As does joining a clan.

There have been plenty of times over the years when I just typed assist for quick ranks, coins, and exp. But that never helped me become  a better player. You get what you put into a clan or a mentor relationship. What helped me become a better player was setting small goals for my knowledge, then leveraging the clan and mentors to achieve those goals.

There is no definition for what goals a player can set to improve. But here are a few that helped me.

Find 10 mobs with over 1000 coins earning potential upon death that can be solo killed.
Learn 20 traps to train disable.
Where are all the instinct loads for my flavor of scout?
Find one new +dam load that is soloable each wipe.
Locate and memorize all of the rank mobs in 5 mid-level zones
Complete a new quest for the first time. (I just learned all of an oldie but goodie zone this wipe)
Chronicle 5 new DT.
When a certain  log posting site was still around, I would select 10 or 20 items off the loot list and make it a point to learn at least what zone the item came from. I was surprised quite often with how many items I could find this way.
10 books, 10 tabs, 10 cleric spells, and 5 shaman loads. Memorize them, learn them, lead them.
Play a class I suck at until I can  effectively train most if not all of the skills.
Learn a leveling pattern that takes you across the map...then learn how to perform rank laps around Ansalon. (Credit goes to Fifty on this one, he first taught me how to run rank laps.)
Learn to load one weapon with a spec each wipe. This really made the game fun.
Pk at least once each wipe, and don't sissy out on it. The player you attack ,or fight off, should have an even shot at killing you.

Like I said, the list can go on and on...but I recommend setting some personal goals to your playing. I've been around for almost 20 years and I sure wish I would have done more of these things during my first 10 years! I might not still suck so much!

Rinad

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Re: attribute reduction
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2015, 10:21:00 PM »
I have to agree with Jason and Eddie on this one....

What isn't fun?
Why don't you want to join a clan? 

You can do well without joining one, but you will most likely learn a lot more, as most of us like sharing the knowledge and friendships we've gained over the years.     Even if you group with clans as a neutral, your bound to pick a good bit of gear/experience/ranks/game knowledge, as we grow to trust and know you, most clans will hook you up well. That being said, If you don't like groups then the 8 man group is irrelevant.  This is a change that has been a long time coming.

As far as most race stats, currently IMO they are a bit absurd and the fact I can get a warrior with 24 nat dex, says something.   This isn't the first nor will it be the last this gets changed in one or another direction.  My most powerful and a well respected character had13 str 18 int  20 wis 15 dex 16 con 18 cha or something like that and was not rolled, I just took what I got and it was over rank 30 by the end of that wipe. That wipe I was asked by many clans to come zone with them on a daily basis.   Arctic is built around teamwork, it is not meant to be a solo mud persay.  Can you do it? yes, is it as fun? depends on who's view. 

Not all areas are going to be hack n slash, many have many layers of quests, mobs, etc.  I'm sorry there is a reason Sleet/Cyan takes time, planning and a rather large group.   Plus this game has over 10k+ rooms/quests/etc.   Over 20 years I still haven't fully solved everything and I think many other players can say the same,but that is what keeps me coming back.  I love showing Jason or Eddie a new KW or quest answer and vice versa.  As it stands now, it is too easy for me to stack up +stat items or ranks.   If you learn enough about the game you would know you could easily be rank 5 before level 15, where this unlimited gear loads and how to pop it.

Most Legend chars  can be soloed and it is a lot easier to legend now that you can gain ranks as you level.  The exp tables are not as bad as the once were, plus its more in tune with being legend at around level 30, usually about 50% to 1x.   There will be skills that are level capped, no matter how much you train.  Now this is the "tedious" part, skills training, again most can be done solo.   Once you buy rank points and legend stats, you'll see how much more you can do.  My two caveats are skills training and loss of rank/exp on death.  I think spending a week typing in "skill" every 3 mins to level it up needs fixing, it doesn't really add value to the game.  Lore and Mend are two I can think of off of the top of my head.    As far as death goes, well losing 1/3 of 65M exp is a lot, plus the hit of 50% rank loss, that's kinda ugly.   Then if you lose level between 29 and 30 your skills reset and there's a few more hours devoted to skilling them again.   I would like to see this hit be a bit less maybe 10-15% on each?  I'm sure some others agree. 

TL;DR The game isn't going to be much harder with nerfed stats, it will be more balanced and it makes gear a tad more interesting.   Clan's are a part of the game and it's not meant to be solo, but you can do so and still be successful.   Death exp/rank loss and skill training sucks.