Poll

Scouts...

kill them with fire
16 (53.3%)
leave them alone
14 (46.7%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Voting closed: November 04, 2015, 02:18:51 PM

Author Topic: Scouts  (Read 14242 times)

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Hoss

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Scouts
« on: October 28, 2015, 03:18:51 PM »
The scout class is in a tricky place. It is not well balanced and breaks a lot of core mud mechanics. We intended to replace the scout class with the original Ranger class, but that might be some time out. I wanted to get your feedback on what should happen to scouts next wipe.

Jorake

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 04:04:16 PM »
Nerf sky volley down to 3 targets; make their hover hard_bash instead of nobash
Nerf mountain anger down a bit maybe make thrash a targetable skill with a decent cool down
Oceans are pretty balanced, maybe nerf wave a bit.

Up the legend cooldowns so they can't be in constant volley or anger etc

Keep their hps as is.

Make the instinct mobs harder. You shouldn't be able to 2man any of the regular instincts.
I look at ones like whale, roc, etc the same as a mage getting prism or one of the other top tier spells
If you made an instinct fight similar to like.. ochre or idk sleet or something of that nature, they wouldn't even need that much nerfing.
Make instincts rare load like books.

I'm not sure what you mean about they break a lot of core mud rules part. It's rare you see an insanely buff scout like an Ilya creation that deals 5-6 oblits in 1 round. Which could be another nerf. Lower burst so it can't hit 4-5x or whatever it does.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 04:08:30 PM by Jorake »

eddiex

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 06:01:22 PM »
Edit see below
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 04:32:20 PM by eddiex »

Hoodoo

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2015, 06:14:02 PM »
Thrash is clearly broken, and legend anger seems.... well, ok, I hate mountains, kill them with fire. They devalue literally every other class with DPS in the description.  Roar breaks fights.  Seriously: make mountains go away. Drop a mountain on them.

Skies are utterly pointless until one gets volley; after, they area better than any mage who hasn't seen Cyan.  I couldn't imagine wanting to suffer through legending one.  They are as broken as mountains, but in a very different way: mountains are broken from level 18ish on, whereas skies go immediately from utterly pointless and painful to watch, to better than any other class in area damage.

Personally, I want to see rangers come back, and they should be modeled after the ocean balance point: good without making other classes utterly pointless. Also, I love sneakbash: bring back sneakbash. :)

Jason

P.S.  Kill mountains with fire. Also, if you're keeping scouts, fix legend ocean jellyfish.  Currently, as it does not stack with bite, it is utterly and completely pointless.  I'd rather connect eel, and zap's 2 round delay make it laughably pointless compared to 3., 4., and 5.2... it's bought only due to the increased depth.  Jellyfish doesn't even have that going.



« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 06:19:58 PM by Hoodoo »

reed23

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2015, 07:01:05 PM »
I voted to keep scouts because a lot of people really like them.  I think oceans don't need tweaking.  Volley is overpowered.  Maybe reduce target by one and I think the cooldown should be a little longer.  Mountains reduce damage slightly.  A big nerf bat to this class and no one will ever consider playing them.  So I think a slight tweak or get rid of them all together.

eddiex

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2015, 08:27:48 PM »
Edit see below
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 04:34:01 PM by eddiex »

walters

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2015, 07:16:08 AM »
I can say after playing all 3 types of scout legend that their are so many things on them that would need fixed to make them actually playable. But let me break down stuff for people who wanted to whine quick.

1. Sky outdamage everything yes. But how often do you see them soloing?
2. Mountain yes very dangerous and damage monster. I remember seeing a mountain 1rounded in pk. Every instinct it has is +dam recieved.
3. Ocean is very well balanced and not much change would be needed.

If scouts are kept I would say put new instincts in game and take some of the old ones out. Make them more of a challenge.
Add instincts like Walrus, A fat floppy black walrus is sunbathing in the hot sun from atop the iceberg.
Walrus would give you sunbathe and it could be like 50% res cold.

Hoss

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2015, 10:23:53 AM »
I don't think a lot of effort will go into anything Scout related. I do appreciate the feedback on balancing the class and I agree with a lot of it, we just need to be very direct in where we spend our limited development time.

eddiex

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2015, 02:28:42 PM »
Walters
1) sky scouts aren't meant to solo. That doesn't justify them out damaging a group 10 fold.
2) i'm skeptical of your account that all mountain instincts are +dam received. I solod plenty of things with Ndamukong and never noticed any significant increase. Your statement that you've seen a mountain one rounded... strawman. Any sub-600 hp char can be one rounded if they have no dam mods
3) oceans may be more balanced than I initially thought, though I still think they need a dam reduction on instincts or increased fail rate

Love you boo

reed23

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2015, 03:25:27 PM »
So how bout that wipe coming up..... Soon(tm)......HOSS!

Kir

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2015, 04:31:13 PM »
I agree with Walters and believe that scouts need a buff to be useful.

People who think scouts do too much dps have obviously not played any mmo's or have a solid comprehension on what it means to be a "DPS" class.

There are two pure DPS classes in the game, mages and scouts. Mages have other utility, scouts do not.

I think sky scouts are fine as is.
Mscouts need more hp to be viable at endgame fights.
Oscouts I have little respect for but there are people who enjoy the class, and I am guessing that like mountains, they also need a hp buff to be viable at endgame (to deal with AOE).

Honestly, scouts were great when the legendary evade rank was in, but when that got removed it made it difficult to bring scouts\thieves to endgame fights, and when scout hp got nerfed, it was even worse.

Thats my opinion, I personally would never tell anybody to play a scout as is, except if they wanted to legend a sky scout.

Hoodoo

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2015, 04:39:48 PM »
Kir:  I love you, man, but you're bapting crazy. 

If oceans got a hp buff, they would out-tank any other class.  At 550 hps (and second-tier gear at best, though I tool up ok), Ix tanked any fight thrown at him, usually with ease.  If I had 650 hps in the same gear and all the buffs/innate damage mit I have *naked*, a 900 hp barb would only be useful as a rescue backup. (Though, granted, desperately needed there: bapt scout rescue right in the orbital socket.)

Mountains are the most overpowered, game-breaking class around. No real arguments there from anyone currently on their meds, as you must not be. 

Skies: as covered earlier, better area than any non-nightmare/bwave/pris mage, and I run a sexy, well-geared white robe missing only that.  I've legended and ranked to 30+ every robe, as well: about this, I know what I'm talking about.

Not sure if you're higher than the Pope on Sunday, or simply out of touch with current game mechanics.

Jason

Jorake

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2015, 05:57:30 PM »
I disagree that Sky is useless without volley. with the right bow/speed you are still hitting 3x per round out of combat.

And no class but warrior should have bash.

Kir

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2015, 08:12:34 AM »
Hoodoo: I dont think we have any fundamental disagreements here. You say ocean scouts can be great tanks but have questionable rescue. I say that a tank with questionable rescue is not reliable therefor not a good tank. And when I say they needed a hp buff, it was in regards to endgame fights that can do 300-450 of area a round, but I also said that bringing back legendary evade would fix that problem so a hp buff isnt absolutely necessary.

And in regards to legend mscouts, they do great dps but that is all they can do. A legend barb or legend paladin with 8 dam and a two-hander can do incredible dps as well, but can also function as tanks or off-tanks whenever, not to mention they have way more hp so they are less likely to die from area.

 
Kir:  I love you, man, but you're bapting crazy. 

If oceans got a hp buff, they would out-tank any other class.  At 550 hps (and second-tier gear at best, though I tool up ok), Ix tanked any fight thrown at him, usually with ease.  If I had 650 hps in the same gear and all the buffs/innate damage mit I have *naked*, a 900 hp barb would only be useful as a rescue backup. (Though, granted, desperately needed there: bapt scout rescue right in the orbital socket.)

Mountains are the most overpowered, game-breaking class around. No real arguments there from anyone currently on their meds, as you must not be. 

Skies: as covered earlier, better area than any non-nightmare/bwave/pris mage, and I run a sexy, well-geared white robe missing only that.  I've legended and ranked to 30+ every robe, as well: about this, I know what I'm talking about.

Not sure if you're higher than the Pope on Sunday, or simply out of touch with current game mechanics.

Jason

Zozen

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Re: Scouts
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2015, 09:57:58 AM »
Ho hum. I don't think Scouts are the most insane/broken class in the game. If you're talking once everything is legend...well then a lot of other classes have some broken legend mechanics that we don't need to talk about in this discussion. Legend broke the game for groups of 10 for all but a couple fights. Try taking your sky scout group and doing all the end game mobs; let me know if those have changed recently.

If you want to head more towards role-playing Dragonlance then yes, you need to remove scoouts and put some semblance of a ranger class back in the game with a bow mechanic that actually is good for every fight in the game and isn't annoying.