Author Topic: Multiing  (Read 37088 times)

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harry_beavr

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2013, 10:20:34 PM »
I have been lurking, but assure you I've been playing Arctic on and off for over a decade.

-Why multi-ing?  Why are we entertaining the idea?  The pbase is too low to allow for effective grouping, therefore a possible solution exists to give players more firepower in the form of an extra character.

-From a pure numbers perspective, this is bullshit...why?  If there are 10-30 people online, theoretically you can have 1-3 end game groups going.  All you would need to do is group the existing players ya know?

-Why does this not happen?  Pbase implemented terms of engagement pertaining to clan warfare.  You are discouraged...nay, not allowed to group outside of your own kind.  To the extent that the lone wolves of random players (myself) are not allowed to group with anyone for fear of repurcussions from nearly every warring clan.  Yes, this is hyperbole, or is it?  I've also been hunted every wipe for being in the same inn as a player, buying an item for a player, having a name sort of, kind of similar to what a player had at some point 5 wipes ago.  This PK centric mindset only caters to the die hards and winning clans.

-My opinion?  You guys *points fingers all around* are the assholes that make the game unavailable for the casual/semi-dedicated gamer.  No logical person is going to log into a game to spend hours unable to progress (this is an RPG, progression is key) because their LFG's fall on deaf ears.  Nor will they log into a game where hours upon hours are wasted because they have been flagged for not knowing the exact warfare status of every single character in the game.

I love Arctic.  I'd rather it allowed multi-ing and play it with myself rather than you assholes.  Maybe this is a popular opinion among new players as well?  Off topic, but if you care-bear mud with no PK on a different port I bet Arctic would thrive there.

Kragg

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2013, 09:42:12 AM »
I have no interest in hijacking this thread but I want to underline what harrybeaver added.  In there is why many potentially competent players haven't stuck it out and certainly a big part of why our mud hasn't been able to organically replace players who move on for at least a decade.

Bots and Multies wouldn't be such a discussion point if we still had 100 players on.

My vote is still no.  I think we need more humans playing.  If nothing else, think of humanities collective mental health; you freaks need to interact with at least some 'real' people.


Gnua

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2013, 12:58:01 PM »
What is our real problem?  Is the issue we are faced with is that multiing is rampant so we just want to make it legal, or is the issue that there is 0 playerbase and we want to allow multiing because there are no groups out there.

The strongest case I could see would be the first - level the playing field between those who follow the rules and those who don't given that enforcing the policy is a thankless and difficult task for the imms. As for the low playerbase, the goal of such a change would be to make soloing easier for the casual player. Multi-classing / side-kicks / mercenaries / improved charmies could also do the trick but would require coding and balancing effort by the imms.  I tried a different mud where you could solo to top level and just got bored. As much as it sucks trying to find a group, soloing is even more boring. I've got a level 16 dk that would have no problems soloing to higher level but I never play it because it has no one to group with. If I were multi-ing, then I would have a party of mid level characters that I never play because they have no one to group with. My healer and barbarian are ranked and I play them because someone always wants one of them in the group.

Corey's point of "what does it matter because the player base is low" motivated me to vote "don't care". Try it and find out sound pretty reasonable at this point in the wipe. I would predict that with more multi-ing, it would become even harder to find a group and although people could now solo with their multis, they would quickly become too bored to log rather than bored shouting for a group. Multis take the M out of MUD.

Ezio

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2013, 02:45:34 PM »
I said no, but my real question is if it really matters or not. It is against policy now and I see how that works out. I can tell who is boting, and I don't really care.

If I had the drive to figure out all the technical stuff I would likely take advantage, myself. The people that do know will multi if they feel like it or need to for something... Agreed?

The playing field is pretty level the way that I view it. You guys with a decade into the game have better items and more zone knowledge than someone who is new (in comparison). That means their 5 characters are generally better geared than my 5. If i multied 3 characters i would still be in the same position, but my 3 characters would be slower and less competent...

Not sure what is prompting the discussion, or what would change with the rule if you consider that it is allowed now, just not technically

snax

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2013, 05:42:56 PM »
  My response to this is that this game has been made exceedingly easier in the past few wipes with Legend, Ranks, Class Revamp, and so forth.  The playerbase is not in my opinion at the point where multi-botting should be instituted as a standard of the game. The zones where you needed 8-10 in the past have become 2-4 man in many cases or even solo for the right classes.  There are still a few zones where you need a large group to be successful as it should be.  In no way is the player base so crippled that in order to do those zones, you need to have x bots.  What it amounts is laziness on the part of the players to make friends/share information with clanmembers or to actually see what zones you can do with less people or even grouping unknowns.  People are ninjaing zones all over the place. 

  The fact is at this point, not finding enough people to do x zone is entirely an attitude problem of players NOT a lack of players problem.  Basicly, the "I don't like x because of what it did to me 20 years ago" attitude.  Or for some reason, you think X unknown is a spy going to steal your shines.  Get over it!  The fact is there are so few people that really will pk you these days that the paranoia retardedness should have died years ago.  The only clan that hasn't had that paranoia of late is MINE...and they been grouping and helping just about anyone that isn't a complete moron/dick and they have been doing this for wipes.

  That being said, I am just as guilty as everyone else since there are quite a few people in the game I really don't have a real use for.  I do however, make an effort.  People just need to realize this is a game...have fun and play with people.  Players are the best way to maintain the playerbase.  The more paranoid you are, the more you are a dick for the sake of being a dick, the more you whine about this person did/said/acted x to you, the more you leave people out in the cold for gear hoarding or information hoarding...the more players we lose because the PLAYERS have made the game un-fun and creates a lack of the same.  Why?  Because most of us are getting old...and as we get older we have enough drama in real life that dealing with drama in what should be entertaining is just stupid.     

  To prove Hoss's point of "I'll quit if you don't do what I want":

  I WILL quit the day botting is made legal.  The only exception to this would be an addition of some mercenary mechanic that is an ingame mechanic that allows anyone to use regardless of level of knowledge in the game or programming skills.  Allowing botting only makes this game more exclusive than it already is.

Anyhow...end of rant.

Hey sami, I know we aren't bosom buddies, but I fully and ENTIRELY agree with your rant.  I'll quit also.  this game can be run by 3 botters.  hell if you wanna turn it into leviathan great.  Riverwind wins.

Victarion

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2013, 08:12:01 PM »
Hello people, you haven't heard from me in a while but somebody messaged me on skype and I figured I'd come in here to tell some truth. First let me say that I likely won't come back to arctic either way, but I am sure 90% of the posts on here have been lies and people wanted to contact me to bring some truths.

1) Already, just about every major clan bots and bots all the time. Some have been suspected and even caught and deleted, but they will continue to do so, and just change the ips and emails of the proxies they use.
2) No clan has been dominate in this game without botting for a very long time, wild was the last, probably in 2007. Botting in arctic basically equates to performance enhancing drugs in sports. Sure they are illegal, but if people will want to get ahead and be the best they will use them. The desire to be at the top > the desire to play by the rules.
3) I learned of botting due to some Scandinavian's (exact country I will not name) who have been using large groups of bots to pk for the better part of a decade and never saw any real negative consequences. After being killed by them enough, you will eventually go with the "you have to fight fire with fire" strategy, and have to take up botting yourself to protect against their 10mans.
4) At the moment, I see many posts by people on these forums who do actively bot, but are highly against botting. Why? The same reason people who deal drugs in the United States do not want drugs to be legalized... because they'd lose their advantage. At the moment now, they bot like crazy, and have a huge advantage when they fight clans who don't bot (not sure that it even exists anymore).
5) Botting 3-4 characters is about 5x more enjoyable than playing 1 character. Its a truth most botters don't share because they don't want others to realize it, but I personally know several people who don't even enjoy playing with other real people anymore, they just log on with 10 bots and do what zones they want, go afk when they want, and don't have to worry about anybody hassling them or making stupid mistakes and bapting up the zone. Once you start botting, it is almost impossible to go back to playing 1 lame char, so people who get caught just change IPs and start over again.
6) Is it possible to stop botting? yes.. but you need a VERY active staff, which arctic only seems to have during the first 1-2 months of a pwipe.

FYI, if you hate botting, but love full loot pvp, try out Darkfall unholy wars, right now im on a galleon with 30 clanmates about to interrupt a city siege where about 100 people will be fighting to take or defend a city. But you have to have a real job and be able to afford a gaming computer and a $15 dollar\month sub. However its worth it, no drama, just full loot pvp skill based. Adios!

Jorquin

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2013, 01:09:41 PM »
a lot of its true, dunno about playing 3-4 being better than playing 1. i played 2 characters a lot and even that can be mentally tiring after a while. playing only one character is much more enjoyable and relaxing, at least in my opinion. then again i never used triggers/scripts i guess.

Rhys

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2013, 12:07:33 AM »
I only play for nostalgia now. Oddly enough, I actually always had more fun in levelling a character up than the end game- oooh new skill / spell / good hp gain etc.

The few times I have logged it was quickly apparent shouting for a group was a waste of time.  It would be nice to log a few multies, reminisce a bit as I run a few basic zones and level up. I am sure this would lead me to playing more. The game is not meant to be played solo.

As someone already said, the best players will have the best eq, multiing already occurs (alot) why not make it legal.

aliquippa

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2013, 03:43:15 AM »
I've been back a few months now. I've only been soloing and have just started to get to the bit-bored stage. I haven't really tried grouping because I'm not sure if anyone I know is playing, and I figured I'd be less likely to be 'flagged' if I never grouped with anybody. Also, I was happy to just explore a bit & refresh my memory of places I used to play. Life takes priority over the game - so I don't want to join a group only to find out I have to log off sooner than expected (not to mention, I play a mage - so not as useful to a group).

I'm for botting because the scripting side of it would bring a bit more excitement to the game for me. I'd also love to explore some slightly higher zones that I used to play with friends.

"Off topic, but if you care-bear mud with no PK on a different port I bet Arctic would thrive there." - I'd actually play there, especially if multiing was allowed. The PK side of the game has never really intrigued me. Then again I've never been competing for high end / limit gear - so I don't really know what I'm missing out on.

Dafin

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2013, 11:25:39 AM »
Was suprised to see a few people with game attitude similar to mine.

I actively played another mud years ago and came to Arctic at the end of wipe 16. For more than two months I got formed two times for several hours and was pked twice as well. Finally found some guys who let me join them. In 3 weeks I learnt lots of new stuff and gathered dozens megabytes of logs but lost delight of the game and finally quit. Because instead of enjoying the proccess I was struggling to keep the pace with my peers. Later I returned to try 3-char botting and found it quite amusing because I was able to play at my own pace and read all the descriptions I wanted.

I voted against multiing legalization because I think it'll have dreadful impact on the game. Though I like the idea of alternative nopk multiing-allowed mud, probably with detached high level content. However I don't know if I'll be able to give it a try.

Btw, is multiing allowed in voting?

Victarion

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2013, 07:20:13 AM »
I dunno if my last post got deleted or if I messed up posting it, however I want to add in a few ways the staff could better regulate botting if the staff decides to ban multying\botting. Obviously the current policing method does not work.
The first method requires policing, the last 3 require initial implementation then imms would have to do 0 policing, I am very high on myself for #3.
1. create an Ventrillo, or teamspeak channel for arcticmud. Every group that is formed is automatically assigned a number, and those players in that group must join the group numbers channel in the voice client. Any imm, lvls 31-36, can jump down to channels and say "Hi, i see there are 5 people in your group, i would like all five of you to say hello to me". Every moron that plays this game can afford a microphone and speakers, so this would work fine, and it would take no time at all to check all groups in game.
2. You must create an account and validate the email address on the arctic website before you can make a char in game. Through the arctic website, your IP that you connect to the webpage must match the IP that your character is connecting to mud with.
3. Create a Java client through the webpage and make it so that is the ONLY way to connect to mud. Make macros and aliases the only features, removing all forms of triggers, and you will definitely stop the bots.
4. Try to form a list of proxy IP's and ban them all.

Essex

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2013, 09:13:58 PM »
My perspective - I have been playing off-and-on since 1993. In that time, between pwipes, I've enjoyed changing things up by playing a host of other MUDs on the web of varying quality. It is simple fact that with the introduction of MMORPGs, the bastard children of MUDs, MUDs are a dying breed. I've had the strange fortune of being present as a number of them blinked out. Reactions by the players of those mud will vary, but it always comes down to rote responses - an outcry for new blood, the belief that amping the apparent number of players will make it appear to have more life or a level of apathy that says the playerbase is so weak that it might as well. These MUDs die slowly and feebly as their staff eventually come to the realization that they're supporting a shell of a creation populated by only a couple of players suffering from semi-autistic devotion. Then they close. Another one bites the dust.

AardWulf is a prime example of painful suckitude that is extreme latitude in multiplay when goes on long after a once-great MUD should be dead. There are others, less memorable. It's just sad, like elderly sportsmen hanging around reminiscing about how awesome they were.

People have whined since all the way back in '93 that the MUD was either dying or going to hell, etc etc, starting at playerbase in excess of 120+ and dropping to the 20-30 I see on at night now. So yeah, it really is dying. That's to be expected, and we all know that multi'ing isn't going to change anything in terms of bringing new blood. The problem is is that it's going to fundamentally change everything, as it always does in these situations, and much the way people are hammering for the opportunity to multi just like the cheaters do, the next step is to hammer on about all the changes that need to be done to accomodate the new dynamic. In a dying MUD. A DYING Mud. Is that what we really want? To redesign the game for a change that stems entirely from the apathy of a diminishing playerbase?

Again, it comes down to going out with class.

On an entirely personal note, I'll tell you that even with the smaller playerbase, I'm enjoying opportunities that I haven't had before, a freedom to explore and group regularly without the expectation of multiple groups of roving bands of players looking for an excuse to pk, and access to equipment that spent most of its time in deep-rent in the past. That doesn't lessen the awesome that Arctic has had in the past, but it's a new dimension that didn't exist before. It doesn't need multiplay.

 Don't muddy it up with a bunch of garbage that is nothing more than a poorly thought-up sign that the MUD is in its last and worst stages of terminal cancer. Multiplay is not and never has been a boon to a MUD, and that's why it's banned on just about every MUD with a player base and a rule-set.

What I'll say here is this: Just let it go. When it's time to close, we close and call it a double-decade. Arctic's been open for over 20 years, did you know that? That's success.

/end rant

Attai

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2013, 12:40:41 AM »
a lot of its true, dunno about playing 3-4 being better than playing 1. i played 2 characters a lot and even that can be mentally tiring after a while. playing only one character is much more enjoyable and relaxing, at least in my opinion. then again i never used triggers/scripts i guess.

I'll admit I've done the same thing, I never used triggers/scripts and its very tiring.  The 2 classes I played were warrior/healer.  I played warrior because I love playing warriors, I played healer because I hate leveling so getting high enough to be useful in groups is a lot of work and boring as hell to me.

My opinion:
If you're playing multiple characters with no triggers/scripts then it should be legal
If you're playing multiple characters that are fully automated bots then it should be illegal

Essex- I respect your opinion but I don't care about going out with class, this is a game and that is why I play it, if it stops being fun then I'll just stop.  When they finally shut the doors hopefully a long time from now no one is going to look back fondly at ArcticMUD and say that yes they may be gone but at least they went out with class.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 12:46:23 AM by Attai »

Hoss

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2013, 10:52:52 AM »
more to come on this during downtime. I plan to leave the thread open until Thursday.

jingo

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Re: Multiing
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2013, 03:12:29 PM »
I see bot thrown around, but I don't know what people are defining as bot:

1. If a character can automatically choose heal targets, and all I have to do is type a heal alias to initiate the heal, is that a bot?

2. If all characters can automatically examine the state of the game, and decide what it wants to do, including nothing, but I have to type an alias to initiate that action, is it a bot?

3. What If I do #2 but continually type an alias that sends the alias to do something (or nothing) to every client - is this a bot?

People also seem to assume someone multi-ing would use the same clients as they do.  If I were to play multiple characters there's much better ways to organize and present information than scrolling text.  There's plenty of clients out there that have plugin support for real programming languages (Java, Python, etc.) that allows one to create a lot of useful features.

I am very high on myself for #3.
Too bad it's impossible to do.  They could make it harder to connect via a different client, but now you're in an arms race vs the cheaters.