Caster Level

[blackmagus]

It's been a decent interval since this system making casters dependent upon their gear was implemented and since then the player base has only kept shrinking.

Is it still necessary to keep trash mages in check by nerfing the ability to mage-bomb without substantial risk? No, I do not think so. The system prevents new players and even returning players from fully engaging the class due to the need to not only find caster level gear, but to maintain it as well once it begins to decay.

I'd encourage removing the system altogether, or at the very least, increasing base caster level back to 20.

[Lyam]

really?

do you know how easy it is to get to 30cl? nearly all mage items have +cl on it anyway
I would recommend to make getting 30cl a lot harder

when casting level was 1st introduced, it was said to get to 30cl was comparable to a 15dam tank.. probably see about 5 15dam tanks on the mud.. yet you see about 50 30cl mages with more getting rolled to take the casting level equipment being dropped and all the mage books

[Neyman]

As a new players, I dont think the casting level system at all prevented me from engaging in the class! Sure, the first few months I played I had trouble getting CL equivalent to my level, but I also had trouble getting from Pal to Balifor smoothly and didnt know how to load any books! In fact I actually enjoyed the search for +cl items, making notes on which ones were easy to load so that I could reequip after I died, or getting excited at seeing some decent +cl item at the merchant. I have no idea what the original purpose of the casting level system was, or what playing a mage was like before it, but I think the game would be more boring without the CL system.

[Lyam]

casting level was introduced to stop everyone making a trash mage to teleport/relocate to enemies and dying without any negative effect seeing sheafs were removed

this hasn't really happened... the only thing I see slowing down trash mages is the amount of exp required to level now days.. even that isn't really slowing down trash mages...

as I said in my previous post the selling point to me with casting level when it was 1st introduced was that to get to 30cl would be like having a 15dam tank... this has not happened as nearly all mage equipment has at least 1cl on it.. some of the more elite items are 4cl....

with teleport being a guild spell and only needing lvl 24 to cast to players, I feel that harsher penalties need to be applied to mages.... not removing casting level or increasing the base casting level to 20...

but then I class nearly everyone that plays a mage to be a trash mage... myself included... there are only a couple of people that I wouldn't put in that category .. but that is another argument about trash mages

[blackmagus]

The 15-dam tank comparison to a 30-CL mage is like comparing apples and oranges, sure they're both fruit, but that is where the similarities end. A tank does not have memorization times, has double or triple the hit points and can consistently do the same damage, with special abilities included every round without fail so long as they're healed. A mage on the other hand, has a limited number of damage spells, is relatively a glass cannon and without the proper equipment, does damage comparable to any other class several levels lower.

[btown]

casting level was introduced to stop everyone making a trash mage to teleport/relocate to enemies and dying without any negative effect seeing sheafs were removed

this hasn't really happened... the only thing I see slowing down trash mages is the amount of exp required to level now days.. even that isn't really slowing down trash mages...

as I said in my previous post the selling point to me with casting level when it was 1st introduced was that to get to 30cl would be like having a 15dam tank... this has not happened as nearly all mage equipment has at least 1cl on it.. some of the more elite items are 4cl....

with teleport being a guild spell and only needing lvl 24 to cast to players, I feel that harsher penalties need to be applied to mages.... not removing casting level or increasing the base casting level to 20...

but then I class nearly everyone that plays a mage to be a trash mage... myself included... there are only a couple of people that I wouldn't put in that category .. but that is another argument about trash mages

Just say you hate mages.  You hate people who play mages.  And you hate the person who made mages.

You are obviouslly a mage hater and your word is no good!

Haha u compare 30cl mage to 15dam tank ahahaha to funny :-)

[Jorquin]

it has been a very, very, very long time since any tank-type character was feared.

that said, i spent a lot of my time playing mages and i firmly believe there are many similarities between a parasite and a mage on arctic. they start as pathetic, insignificant things that attach themselves to a larger host in order to grow.

it's an interesting interaction, they can be some of the most powerful and fear inspiring characters possible, yet most of the time they're the weak link that group leaders secretly plan to replace with a level 26+ tank at the first opportunity


edit:   on a more comical note, this is standard practice when a mage book loads:     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4BNbHBcnDI#t=43

[blackmagus]

You'd think that the Mage class should be removed altogether listening to these two. At least until they realize shaman and druids are just as powerful in their own way, if more versatile.

[Hoss]

Casting level...ugh

Casting level was a well intended system, however we really missed the mark by making it too easy to get and too easy to maintain. I can say that our goal is to remove casting level, however it won't be going away this wipe. Comparing a warrior to mage damage isn't really a fair comparison as their is no longer a solid baseline now that damage is completely out of control (more on this later).

[Brafu]

I agree with Hoss in that its VERY easy to get and maintain 30cl with even sub par game knowledge. I could very easily get 30cl right now with almost all "trash" eq, and I don't even play mages anymore.

The main reason I'm still a fan of CL is for the simple fact that if you kill a mage they cannot, typically, just mem 4 or 5 tics and then be at full power. They will need to have stored spare CL, or have friends quickly toss them some, if they want to start throwing around the kinda power that people won't just laugh at.

I see high tier mage spells as equivalent to a tank getting elite eq, and I like that a mage needs to get eq again before they can take full advantage of their elite spells. When a tank dies they typically cannot get back anything close to their high dam level they had before the death (lets assume the tank was seriously stacked), but they can get a couple weapons and, at the very least, still be useful. A mage is much the same in regards to CL, since they can still do damage naked, but it won't be anything like what they could do when fully "stacked".

[blackmagus]

Casting level...ugh

Casting level was a well intended system, however we really missed the mark by making it too easy to get and too easy to maintain. I can say that our goal is to remove casting level, however it won't be going away this wipe. Comparing a warrior to mage damage isn't really a fair comparison as their is no longer a solid baseline now that damage is completely out of control (more on this later).

Thank you.

Even out the damage across the board to make it equivalent to other classes , but don't make it harder for casual mages to play simply by making them handicapped by their equipment.

[Brafu]

@blackmagus

Just like someone who's playing a tank needs to figure out how to get their hands on better weapons and eq, so does a mage. It's absolutely no different than a tank player figuring out how to load a 19 dam prime so they are not stuck with that 13 dam one they snagged from some zone as they lvled. A mage needs to learn where to snag more CL so they can wield said 19 dam prime instead of the 13 dam one.

In no way are casual, and neutral, players handicapped by the CL system, not unless they choose to handicap themselves by refusing to explore new zones and actually expand their game knowledge. Maybe you find it difficult to load and maintain 30cl, I don't know, but I know from first hand experience that it's really not that hard (and I'm talking about loads that any mage can solo without much trouble).

[Lyam]

why shouldn't I compare a 30cl mage to a 15dam tank?
both should be equally hard to obtain

a 15dam tank dies and loses their eq.. they go back to vhards with shop eq and it takes a lot longer to get back up to oblits
a 30cl mage dies and loses their eq.. they go back to 15cl and keep all their spells.. their damage goes from (rough estimates here) 150hp single frags down to 80hp single frags.. but with mages there is that much casting level equipment that they do not stay at 15cl for very long

sure there is a lot more dam equipment in the game now, but it is still hard to get back there.. there are a lot more 30cl backup mages around that can strip to equip a main character than there is 15dam backup tanks that can do the same.. I know when I have a mage that I don't care if the equipment is lost, but I get upset when my tank loses its equipment

[blackmagus]

Why shouldn't you, I just told you, so perhaps you should read my response again or refute my argument so as to show you have a basic understanding of what's being discussed here.

A 15CL mage is a glass cannon, able to put out moderate damage but truly vulnerable to anything so much as a single bash. Like level content is made doable by pets and utility spells, but truly a mage is a piece of straw in gale force winds. Very little +CL is available via merchants and while +5 CL in various pieces is fairly easy to pop, it doesn't change the fact the Mage is still low on the survivability scale.

A naked tank still has the massive survivability of double or triple the hit points, utility skills and the ability to buy world merchant equipment to easily get back to moderate damage output. A tank is only as good as his weapon, but the weapon choices are limitless and +dam not all that rare.

Jorquin did make a very amusing point about spellbook loads, but what's more amusing is mages are most often omitted from high level content for additional healers or bathers and yet everyone has a mage alt.

[Zozen]

 Blackmagus who is your mage? I do not believe you are playing your mage correctly if that is your opinion of mages. As a first time mage player this wipe I have been to every 'high level content' fight that isn't nomagic/reflect (and even most of those with my golem helping) and I believe the damage output and survivability of a fully spelled mage surpasses most warriors.

As a leader I tend to prefer people playing warrior types in a group mainly because most people don't like the attention required to play a mage well. 

-Sean (Russell)