Author Topic: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe  (Read 3267 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Aristox

  • Administrator
  • Zone Leader
  • ******
  • Posts: 367
Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« on: March 05, 2014, 08:59:42 PM »
Critical chance is based on a stat

The stat is set by guild:

Druid/Cleric/Shaman: Strength
Warrior/DK/Paladin/Barbarian: Wisdom
Thief/Ranger: Intelligence
Mages: Dexterity
** Above subject to change later.

Your stat divided by 8 will give you the chance you have to critical hit, a max of 12.5% chance.  This will keep critical hits rare, but obtainable.

Yes, we know these stats are non-standard for those guilds. That was on purpose.  We want each stat to have a use for every guild.  This means you don't have to put an effort into each stat, but if you happen to end up with some bonuses to it you will get something out of it.


Bonus damage on a critical hit is based on a stat

The stat is set by guild:

Druid/Cleric/Shaman: Intelligence
Warrior/DK/Paladin/Barbarian: Dexterity
Thief/Ranger: Strength
Mages: Wisdom
** Above subject to change later.

Your stat is how much of a bonus your hit will get to damage.  If you have 100 in the stat, you get a 100% bonus.


All damage can critical hit based on the above stats

Melee, Spells and Skills can all do critical damage.   We have currently added different melee messages when there is a critical. We haven't gotten to writing any new skills or spells yet, so we will see what happens there later.



Short and sweet this week.

fulloflife

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 27
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2014, 09:48:56 PM »
so this will have nothing to do with eq? dark blue bandanas etc

Aristox

  • Administrator
  • Zone Leader
  • ******
  • Posts: 367
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 07:43:21 AM »
so this will have nothing to do with eq? dark blue bandanas etc

I think you have the wrong bandana there, but those kind of stat bonuses from equipment will be removed.  We are going to focus more on base stats (int, wis, con, dex, str) providing bonuses, not those non-base ones.

gulca

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 313
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 01:11:34 PM »
Critical hits are only extra damage? No special effects?

Can we think of the extra damage as extra attack on top of the original attack? Or is it pure addition to the original attack?

I guess my question is will Armor reduce critical hit damage? Or does it ignore Armor dam reduction?

I don't want to see a special critical hit message and right after that, You bruise FatTank with your slash.

Hoodoo

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 169
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 01:39:15 PM »
Since the system is leaving...

I asked multiple imms about the Mortal Striker legend rank.  Does this currently, in the system we'll be waving goodbye to, affect spell crits?

Thank you. Yes, slightly off topic. Been driving me crazy.

Jason

Aristox

  • Administrator
  • Zone Leader
  • ******
  • Posts: 367
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2014, 10:12:14 AM »
Critical hits are only extra damage? No special effects?

No special effects. They may reappear later, but they are hard to balance so we are leaving them off for now.

Quote from: gulca
Can we think of the extra damage as extra attack on top of the original attack? Or is it pure addition to the original attack?

I guess my question is will Armor reduce critical hit damage? Or does it ignore Armor dam reduction?

I don't want to see a special critical hit message and right after that, You bruise FatTank with your slash.

The new messages replace the standard melee messages.  So you will only see one message on a crit hit, and they are different based on the final damage (after all reductions).

Aristox

  • Administrator
  • Zone Leader
  • ******
  • Posts: 367
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2014, 10:24:52 AM »
Since the system is leaving...

I asked multiple imms about the Mortal Striker legend rank.  Does this currently, in the system we'll be waving goodbye to, affect spell crits?

Thank you. Yes, slightly off topic. Been driving me crazy.

Jason

Mortal Striker will be going away.  But you will be able to simulate it to a degree by purchasing the crit-chance-stat rank for your guild.

Gahris

  • Immortal
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 06:02:50 AM »
I still think having different stats modify different things for different guilds is not the wisest direction to be taking. Sure it is a cool and ambitious idea, I think it creates a nightmare as far as trying to balance the classes.

I think it would be a lot easier to balance and a lot more transparent if you just let a particular stat modify the same things for all classes. 
For example if you let dexterity modify melee critical chance for all classes, and let strength affect melee critical damage. 

Likewise spell critical chance could be set by wisdom and spell critical damage could be modified by int. 

If you found later that mages were doing too much melee damage or rangers were doing to much spell damage, you could reduce the bonus a particular character gets from a particular stat based on their guild.

For example may be mages melee critical chance and melee critical damage cap at 6.125 and 50 percent, while the rangers spell critical chance and damage could have a similar cap. I don't think that this would be a necessary tweak as different classes have different stat needs and it would be unlikely for the mage to  stack strength or the ranger in this case to over stack intelligence, but they could. Though they would likely have to be weaker in another area. 

Attributes->Attribute function ->Class->class function/design ->class primary attributes

Redesigning each stat for each class,though less boring and perhaps interesting from a coding point of few, is ass backwards and offers no increased functionality. I have no clue about writing code however my wife is a software designer and the route you are going with stats and guilds is in our opinion a serious design flaw.




Aristox

  • Administrator
  • Zone Leader
  • ******
  • Posts: 367
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 10:58:01 AM »
I still think having different stats modify different things for different guilds is not the wisest direction to be taking. Sure it is a cool and ambitious idea, I think it creates a nightmare as far as trying to balance the classes.

It is not cool, or ambitious. In fact part of the point is to make balance easier, thus it is required to be accessible and straightforward.  We can debate whether it is accessible or straightforward if you want.

If I wanted to do cool and ambitious it would end up a lot more complex and unbalanced.

Quote from: Gahris
I think it would be a lot easier to balance and a lot more transparent if you just let a particular stat modify the same things for all classes. 
For example if you let dexterity modify melee critical chance for all classes, and let strength affect melee critical damage. 

Likewise spell critical chance could be set by wisdom and spell critical damage could be modified by int. 

You just created the balancing nightmare.  Now mages can be come wrecking balls by stacking 1, maybe 2, stats and ignoring all the rest. This is also part of the reason naked mages are so scary right now.

Quote from: Gahris
If you found later that mages were doing too much melee damage or rangers were doing to much spell damage, you could reduce the bonus a particular character gets from a particular stat based on their guild.

For example may be mages melee critical chance and melee critical damage cap at 6.125 and 50 percent, while the rangers spell critical chance and damage could have a similar cap. I don't think that this would be a necessary tweak as different classes have different stat needs and it would be unlikely for the mage to  stack strength or the ranger in this case to over stack intelligence, but they could. Though they would likely have to be weaker in another area. 

Why would we ever care about mage melee or ranger spell damage unless other parts of the system were horribly broken?  You are setting up a strawman here, but you already set it on fire.

Quote from: Gahris
Attributes->Attribute function ->Class->class function/design ->class primary attributes

Redesigning each stat for each class,though less boring and perhaps interesting from a coding point of few, is ass backwards and offers no increased functionality. I have no clue about writing code however my wife is a software designer and the route you are going with stats and guilds is in our opinion a serious design flaw.

This has nothing to do with boring or interesting from a coding point of view.  Software design requires simplicity to be maintainable (and in our world balanced).  The more knobs and levers you add to achieve balance the further you get from it.  The more rules and exceptions you add the easier it is for things to spin out of control.  You are adding tons of knobs with your different caps for each class, but you aren't balancing anything.  Even by splitting up melee crit stats vs spell crit stats you are creating another layer that needs to be balanced.  I am saying a crit is a crit is a crit.

Is it as intuitive to a player that mages need Dexterity to increase their critical chance?  Maybe not, but that can be solved through better help files and more visibility in the score command.  What we gain though is diversity of character strength: you cannot become a juggernaut just by getting to 100 int as a mage, you cannot become The Hulk by getting to 100 str as a warrior. You have to plan your character stats out, make trade offs.  I honestly think that dexterity makes just as much sense for crit chance as intelligence or wisdom would, you can disagree with me if you want.

Your statement about no increased functionality is rather off in my opinion.  I think your design offers no increased functionality to the player, and only headaches for the admins.  The mage player can now choose to pile on dex and wis to be a crit specialist, in your system they just get more int and are awesome.  One stat to rule them all leads to Sauron characters.

Hooray for your wife for being a software designer, but how does that add anything to the conversation?

Jorquin

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 420
  • Favorite Zone: Danger Zone
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 11:04:32 AM »
i guess she's adept at handling soft wares


BOOM HEADSHOT

corey

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 229
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 12:31:22 PM »
Aristox - are pets going to fall into the new crit system somehow? are offhands going to be able to crit now or will it be similar to before?

Aristox

  • Administrator
  • Zone Leader
  • ******
  • Posts: 367
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 01:33:12 PM »
Aristox - are pets going to fall into the new crit system somehow?
Currently, yes.   We haven't thought about pets much yet.  When/if we redo them that might change, but I doubt it.

Quote from: corey
are offhands going to be able to crit now or will it be similar to before?

Offhands will crit just like mainhands.

Gahris

  • Immortal
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 01:35:27 PM »
I still think having different stats modify different things for different guilds is not the wisest direction to be taking. Sure it is a cool and ambitious idea, I think it creates a nightmare as far as trying to balance the classes.

It is not cool, or ambitious. In fact part of the point is to make balance easier, thus it is required to be accessible and straightforward.  We can debate whether it is accessible or straightforward if you want.

If I wanted to do cool and ambitious it would end up a lot more complex and unbalanced.

I guess we can agree to disagree here, I think having stats have different roles for different classes lends itself to unbalance you do not.

Quote from: Gahris
I think it would be a lot easier to balance and a lot more transparent if you just let a particular stat modify the same things for all classes. 
For example if you let dexterity modify melee critical chance for all classes, and let strength affect melee critical damage. 

Likewise spell critical chance could be set by wisdom and spell critical damage could be modified by int. 

You just created the balancing nightmare.  Now mages can be come wrecking balls by stacking 1, maybe 2, stats and ignoring all the rest. This is also part of the reason naked mages are so scary right now.


Quote from: Gahris
If you found later that mages were doing too much melee damage or rangers were doing to much spell damage, you could reduce the bonus a particular character gets from a particular stat based on their guild.

For example may be mages melee critical chance and melee critical damage cap at 6.125 and 50 percent, while the rangers spell critical chance and damage could have a similar cap. I don't think that this would be a necessary tweak as different classes have different stat needs and it would be unlikely for the mage to  stack strength or the ranger in this case to over stack intelligence, but they could. Though they would likely have to be weaker in another area. 

Why would we ever care about mage melee or ranger spell damage unless other parts of the system were horribly broken?  You are setting up a strawman here, but you already set it on fire.

Maybe the mage wants to do damage in a no-magic room? Rangers use to have the magic-missile spell, Gahris actually won a tourney using magic missiles, the point is if the mages stacked strength they would have to sacrifice some other stat they need.

Quote from: Gahris
Attributes->Attribute function ->Class->class function/design ->class primary attributes

Redesigning each stat for each class,though less boring and perhaps interesting from a coding point of few, is ass backwards and offers no increased functionality. I have no clue about writing code however my wife is a software designer and the route you are going with stats and guilds is in our opinion a serious design flaw.

This has nothing to do with boring or interesting from a coding point of view.  Software design requires simplicity to be maintainable (and in our world balanced).  The more knobs and levers you add to achieve balance the further you get from it.  The more rules and exceptions you add the easier it is for things to spin out of control.  You are adding tons of knobs with your different caps for each class, but you aren't balancing anything.  Even by splitting up melee crit stats vs spell crit stats you are creating another layer that needs to be balanced.  I am saying a crit is a crit is a crit.

Is it as intuitive to a player that mages need Dexterity to increase their critical chance?  Maybe not, but that can be solved through better help files and more visibility in the score command.  What we gain though is diversity of character strength: you cannot become a juggernaut just by getting to 100 int as a mage, you cannot become The Hulk by getting to 100 str as a warrior. You have to plan your character stats out, make trade offs.  I honestly think that dexterity makes just as much sense for crit chance as intelligence or wisdom would, you can disagree with me if you want.

Your statement about no increased functionality is rather off in my opinion.  I think your design offers no increased functionality to the player, and only headaches for the admins.  The mage player can now choose to pile on dex and wis to be a crit specialist, in your system they just get more int and are awesome.  One stat to rule them all leads to Sauron characters.

Why not just  rename the attributes offence, defence, critical chance, critical damage / health instead of trying to turn a particular classes' junk stat into some useful stat.
Hooray for your wife for being a software designer, but how does that add anything to the conversation? Because I Had her read what you suggested and said it wasn't a good way to go?

I agree with your idea, I just think how you are going about in many ways is exactly opposite to what you say you are trying to do. 

fulloflife

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 27
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 05:08:45 PM »
the stat bonuses is hard to interpret independently from how equipment will or will not be revamped.

I don't know the distribution of +stat eq by slot/class, but my priors are that the multiple +stats for a given slot is heavily combo-ed towards existing class specifications e.g. +str and +con, +int and +wis.

What i mean is that you don't see too much +dex +int comboed eq (to my limited knowledge )which would  benefit the future thief.

I imagine the goal would be to revamp eq to match these bonuses better which is one part of the balancing act since you don't want to over or under do it.


 

Aristox

  • Administrator
  • Zone Leader
  • ******
  • Posts: 367
Re: Critical Hits -- Next Wipe
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 05:44:56 PM »
the stat bonuses is hard to interpret independently from how equipment will or will not be revamped.

I don't know the distribution of +stat eq by slot/class, but my priors are that the multiple +stats for a given slot is heavily combo-ed towards existing class specifications e.g. +str and +con, +int and +wis.

What i mean is that you don't see too much +dex +int comboed eq (to my limited knowledge )which would  benefit the future thief.

I imagine the goal would be to revamp eq to match these bonuses better which is one part of the balancing act since you don't want to over or under do it.

Yes, we know to all of this.

There is going to be a complete overhaul of all gear.  It hasn't really started yet, but the plans are in place.

I would suggest assuming there will be a very good distribution of all types of gear.  Gear with multiple stat types on it will be far more abundant.