Group Size

[Rhak]

I think having a flexible group size would cause a lot of problems for pvp, partly because the line for a new zone can be pretty ambiguous.  You will have one group behind that line with ten people waiting for another on the other side to walk in with five, or have to walk in with two five person groups and form after entering, or have a large group pass that line and suddenly find themselves disbanded.  Also there are zones that are mixed up, with small sections or rooms taken from another zone number that could cause problems with normal zoning.  Personally I think a scaling penalty beyond a certain number of people would be the fairest and least complicated way, if it were balanced correctly.

[fulloflife]

before the group size becomes mandatory, some volunteers should try to complete every "non-elite" zone with 5 man and log it and email it to the staff so they have some sense of how to tweak things.

[Zozen]

We can't accurately test until class changes are implemented.

[Gnua]

I am nervous that we are making multi/bottling decidedly more powerful here

You think Tim and Lottie will force everyone else into the inn?

[Jarrad]

I am still not really clear on the motivation behind lowering the group limit. Is it intended to create more leaders? Is it due to diminishing playerbase? Is it because characters are too powerful? Is the intention to create more smaller clans?

I think if you want to lower group limit it is fine. Go with a hard coded group limit or it will have all sorts of knock on effects for pvp. I would suggest you think of ideas along the lines of allowing multiple groups to tackle particular zones together. Possibly consider changing area effect spells so that they dont automatically engage the casters giving a possibility of 2 5 man groups working together in pvp, they might damage each other, but they can still engage targets intentionally. Zones that it is possible to bring multiple groups into should be clearly flagged firstly in a news post and then in the help files of the zones, and possibly even a sticky on the forum so that there can be no confusion...

Cyan on two 5 man groups? Why not? But if your relying on bots instead of communication between players its going to be significantly more challenging...

[eddiex]

Hoss originally stated that the group size has been monitored over the last few wipes.  Streamlining the content of the game to fit the average group size makes perfect sense.  A fully equipped elite clan can steamroll cyan on a daily basis vs a lesser clan hoping to possibly do it once in a wipe.  This is a huge disparity and in my opinion not a level playing field.

I am certain in the current game a 5 man of the proper legendary characters can complete almost any zone (with the exception of a few fights).  I think scaling the game to fit an average group of 5 would only result greater class diversity in those capable of achieving these results.

In regards to the lesser skilled players being trimmed from the elite due to group size:  These players are being mindlessly foddered anyway.  Some of these players have egos > skill level from being babied along, handed shinies, and backed by the elite.  It is only when they learn to fish themselves that they become something more than a hungry mouth to feed.  These players may have done themselves a disservice by whoring themselves to accompany the elite in hopes of getting hand-me-down damage.

I see players every wipe, taking the opportunity to become better leaders.  I think many people limit themselves severely with the belief that they are under-powered to complete certain areas.  Having the foresight knowing you are capable of completing the vast majority of the game with only 4 others to me only increase the lesser experienced player's knowledge and ability.

Final thought: If you had never seen a group of 2 people (when most use 10) easily kill a buff dragon would you ever think to try that? Most would simply avoid it.

[Chisul]

Eddie,

I completely agree. A few wipes ago a buddie helped me two man cupelix with a scout and a shaman. Basically we couldn't get a group together to do it so I could legend my scout, on a lark we ran to the zone and killed it.

Though cupelix is far from the hardest fight in the game, doing it two man with no prep totally changed the way I look at playing the mud. Getting smaller groups to actually try these zones/fights is a great way to get players playing more confidently...even if you die a time or two in the process.

Matt

[Alecto]

If the idea behind LUBE is to force players to make decisions (and sacrifices) in the building of their characters it seems like a 5 group limit might be counter-intuitive.

Say you have a mage who specializes in critical hits and another who focuses purely on spellpower - in a 5 man group there probably won't be room for both of these.  However, everyone will need the warrior/paladin/barb who has built up huge hp/damage resist (but you will only need one, of course).

Seems like the group limit idea is a plus to back-to-basics group strategies (tank, heals, 3 damagers) and a minus for characters who specialize but aren't necessarily a vital commodity.

On the other hand, the new specialization will mean there will be less effective soloing (that huge tank will do really crappy damage; that melee monster damager is always a bash away from dying) so there will be more grouping.

I don't mind either way, its just a big change from the current game structure.  I think the challenge and the tactical planning for big fights might make arctic even more interesting.

[Gramm]

If you make the group size smaller, there will be a higher demand for leaders, meaning more people will have to step up and take charge and become more active, i love doing 3-5 man zoning as the game currently is as each group member is 100% useful for what i can lead personally. Your gonna have elitist groups with 5 OR 10 man limits theres no way to stop that from happening, dont bother, just try becoming elite yourselves, some of you will. Personally i think anyone who can get themselves to rank 20 and gear themselves is elite enough already! then u just need to make friends to explore new things.
Anyways i ramble but before i stray too far from what i was trying to say, two 5 man groups has. 2x the fun going on as just one 10 man in terms of tanking healing and text adventure!
and for the fighting i wonder if youd actually start seeing 4 groups enter at the same time, there would certainly be a lot less area and people would have to get really good at targetting specific enemies. It would be a whole new ball game.
spells would have to be more specific, you couldnt just throw ice storms tornados and nightmares off without hurting anyone on your side that isnt in the 5man. maybe those are just pipe dreams but im interested to see what the logs next wipe will look like already if this change does happen.

[Kir]

Why a 5 man group cap limit is bad for me. Well, simply put, we have 20-25 active or semi-active members in our clan at any given time, and those people change from wipe to wipe, sometimes more come back and play and our numbers bump to 30 or drop to 15 etc. When people are online, we form a 10 man, get in voice chat, and have a good time zoning and chatting. The social aspect is what draws us to this game after 10-20 years of play and the camaraderie of having a 10man laughing and joking and being idiots is the best part of this game entirely. Splitting us up into 5 man groups will make it so there is an "Alpha" group and a "beta" group, and if we have more than 10, possibly a 3rd group. People will feel likely feel excluded and alienated based on what group they get put into.

Why a 5 man group cap limit is bad for you;
A) well, if we do split up into 2 5 man groups instead of a 10 man, that means we are covering 2x as much content in the same amount of time that we used to. Now if anybody is unfamiliar with this current wipe's rush, RISE popped a good majority of the gear and HOWC and OUTLAW had to fight back quite undergeared for quite a while. This gear disparity could possibly end up worse than it was previous and I know people don't want that.

Why a 5 man group is bad for everybody;
Currently in arctic you need a 10 man to conquer the games hardest zones\fights. And to bot a 10 man in the highest level zones its nearly impossible even with the most advanced scripts that are currently in play. However, a 5 man is MUCH easier to control, and even possible without scripts. I have admitted before that a few years ago I botted 4-5 chars at a time, and never needed any fancy scripts. The reason you currently don't see anybody in the game who's bot crazy running around with a 10man of nightmarer's clearing out the game is because they can't pop nightmare with their bot armies because those fights are too complicated with a 10man of bots. However, as I've previously stated, a 5 man is much easier to control, and if a 5 man is able to do end game fights, then you are damned sure to get the eventual 5 man nightmaring squad poofing in to whoever and 5x stunning, all being controlled by 1 guy. And I am pretty sure nobody wants that...

[haphazard]

When the wipe is 3-4 months in and there are 25-40 people on max, I think the idea of a 5 man group is much better. Up until last wipe I was an overly dedicated player and I was pretty much the last man standing in every clan I was in. The doable content shrinks drastically when people all get busy and quit playing after the excitement of the wipe rush. Having a smaller group seems much more fitting to the few people that play longer than the first few months of a 12 month wipe. As far as botters and cheaters, I agree that 5 man groups will just make them easier to manage; however, people are going to cheat and bot either way. By lowering the max group limit, the game stays much more playable to the hardcore people that stick out a whole wipe, and honestly that's who the imms are, and should be, catering to the most. I have done alot of big stuff on small groups, but you can't do it all. It's disappointing that when 80% of your friends hang it up for the wipe that 1/3+ of the game is then off-limits.

[corey]

If botting the current content with 10 people is so difficult, as you two have agreed, then why is it still done so often and ago efficiently?

The point I came here to make, though, was that changing groups to 5 man limits actually benefits non-botters because it's so much easier to get 5 people together for the harder content than it is to try and get 10 to even have a chance to compete.

[btown]

Lets see if I usually use 2 bots that means I can only group 2 people.   Tough decisions to be made!  I will take the players over the bots all day.

[Gnua]

this would probably tip the balance of 10 mages vs 10 bashers in pk because the bashers could split into 2 groups of five without a huge loss in effectiveness.

[Jorquin]

i can tell you right now that having a group limit will have little effect of the number of people brought to pk, it will just mean that those using the "horde" strategy won't area as much to ensure they don't end up fighting each other.


i agree and disagree with jack about the locust theory. while its likely that to begin with large clans will form numerous groups and swarm through zones and strip them naked, over time i think you'd see large clans start to split up as there would be no real need to have 15+people anymore.

from a personal perspective I can tell you that although I lead a lot when I play a mortal, I utterly despise leading. it realistically is comparable to a babysitting job, and I firmly believe that I would be qualified to be a pre-school teacher based solely on leading arctic playing groups. if i played a mortal after all these changes (which is an if, i might just focus on creation) i'd probably just go solo and hide that i'm playing from everyone. if content is scaled to 5 people, soloing will be way easier anyway!