Author Topic: Group Size  (Read 30310 times)

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kanu

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2014, 08:38:18 AM »
If you eliminate locate object, my guess is that there will be 5 or 6 "easy and fast" zones that will be powered through non-stop. One advantage of locate object is that it encourages people to skip over zones that have nothing in them, which encourages people to do other zones, and hence encourages diversity.

Hoodoo

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2014, 08:54:06 AM »
Also, like everything else in this game, there is a knowledge base associated with locate.  Those who hate the spell are the people who make level 22 mages to port around 3 zones with and wonder why nothing ever shows on locate. :)

As my previous note  got deleted, I'll say here what I said there, with slightly less detail.  Insofar as a 5 person group limit: yes, because it will help remove the glass ceiling of 10 man runs for 1 mage spell that occurs at the Big 4 level.  Neutral/smallclan mages with the knowledge needed should be able to fully spell a mage. 

Jason

Hoss

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2014, 11:27:02 AM »
@Hoodoo your post was deleted because it was solely focused on mage spells, not the topic.

We have received a lot of great feedback on this subject and I would like to keep the conversation moving forward. A lot of you have told us that you would prefer to see the limit be a hard one at 5 instead of flexible 5-10. Based on that feedback I wanted to throw this out there:

What if the group limit was established by zone? Most zones would have a limit of 5, but those elite zones would have a limit of 10. This we think would remove the ambiguity of the group system as well as allow us to remove any penalty imposed on the group. One thing we were struggling with was not wanting to create additional rules for PvP vs. PvE and we think this might put us in a good spot.

For example: Aristox forms a group of 5 swarthy pirates in Balifor and heads to Silvanesti. After entering Silvanesti he can add an addition 5 players to a max of 10. If the mage in the group recalls back to Balifor, the group either disbands or the mage is ejected from the group (details to come later).

corey

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2014, 11:41:25 AM »
@Hoodoo your post was deleted because it was solely focused on mage spells, not the topic.

We have received a lot of great feedback on this subject and I would like to keep the conversation moving forward. A lot of you have told us that you would prefer to see the limit be a hard one at 5 instead of flexible 5-10. Based on that feedback I wanted to throw this out there:

What if the group limit was established by zone? Most zones would have a limit of 5, but those elite zones would have a limit of 10. This we think would remove the ambiguity of the group system as well as allow us to remove any penalty imposed on the group. One thing we were struggling with was not wanting to create additional rules for PvP vs. PvE and we think this might put us in a good spot.

For example: Aristox forms a group of 5 swarthy pirates in Balifor and heads to Silvanesti. After entering Silvanesti he can add an addition 5 players to a max of 10. If the mage in the group recalls back to Balifor, the group either disbands or the mage is ejected from the group (details to come later).

Hopefully this doesn't come out too shoddy as I'm typing on my phone but...

Wow as an example did this for years. Different player amounts for different types of content. This was workable for them for so long because of the type of game they had. It was great in player numbers as well as the money to keep was seemed like 4 different versions of the game running at once.

They recently changed the hard mode raiding to 20 man only. Their reasons are their reasons and I won't go into that. Our reasons will be different. We have limited players and, unlike wow, everyone is on the same playing field no matter what. We can't cater to those who want to stick to 5 man only content when the best gear will always be from the 10 mans. Different group sizes, I think, will stray away from what you're assuming for with the group size changes in the first place. My thoughts are if there's a group size limit of 5, all content will be tuned to 5. Everyone's on the same playing field all the time.

reed23

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2014, 11:50:00 AM »
Can Hoss or anyone explain to me why this is such a big issue and needs to be changed?  If people want to group with 5 players, go ahead!  As was previously discussed, 85%+ of the game can be done on a 5 man atm.  And under the proposed changes, the remaining 15% will still allow 10 man groups!!!  So if I read between the lines, "5-man" zones will get debuffed from where they are currently to make them 5-mannable and legendary will be probably be removed.  All that sounds like to me is 0 +100 - 100 = 0.  We are taking away here, adding there, and we are back to the same spot we were before only that we now have to leave people sitting on the side-lines and not get to group when doing the 5 man areas.

Why do we want to exclude people from zoning groups?  It doesn't make sense to me.  Look at the zoning groups right now.  I would say a lot of groups on a day to day basis have more than 5.  Why in the hell would we want to shrink the mud anymore than it already is?  I don't understand the logic.  Please, someone, explain.  Hopefully i'm missing the whole point of this.

Hoss

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2014, 12:26:10 PM »
@reed Your benchmarks of what can be accomplished today will not remain constant tomorrow. The new development will be shifting those lines so try to keep an open mind and not hang on to what a group can or cannot do today. I know it can be difficult to conceptualize without all the information but hang in there.

10 man groups are by far not the normal group size, they are the exception.

We want to do a lot better job at balancing the game content, both existing and new. In order to do this we must have a baseline for power, the first building block of that baseline is the size of the group.

reed23

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2014, 12:54:46 PM »
Thank you for the reply.  Sounds good to me.  The only other comment I will throw in is I agree that 10 man groups are definitely not the normal group size, they are the exception.  Going from 10 to 5 seems a bit drastic to me, but again, I don't have all the info.

Doug

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2014, 12:55:39 PM »
It seems the biggest argument for not changing group size is that some people will be left behind/not enough leaders.  Would a group limit of 6-8 be better than 5?  It would be interesting to see stats on average group size from a wipe.

Zozen

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2014, 02:04:27 PM »
I think we need more info on the class changes before feedback on group sizes. I like change though and I remember all the rage arguments when group limits were first put in and then the decreases each time..'how can we do cyan on 20?!' Game evolves and we still play.

jingo

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2014, 11:01:24 AM »
Hard limit variable group sizes based upon zone sounds pretty clunky.  It also sounds pretty bad that if your group, or someone in it, has to recall from a zone that they get ejected.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 11:03:02 AM by jingo »

Ezio

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2014, 12:57:40 PM »
I am nervous that we are making multi/bottling decidedly more powerful here

breiner

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2014, 04:00:08 PM »
To begin with I'd like to say I don't like the concept of reducing group sizes because it reduces the social aspect of the game.
Currently people are left on the sidelines with groupsize of 10. This might not be the case for all clans, but it most certainly is the case for clans who want to be able to kill all mobs in the game.

For clans consisting of casual players imposing limits on group size would not benefit them whether it be through hardcoded groupsize limits or reduced loot/xp whatever. It would simply mean that they'd get less out of the few hours a week that they do manage to get a full 10 man.

The thing I see breaking content is not group size but legendary status. It's very hard to scale a game where there is such a huge difference between the easiest '10 man' zone and the hardest. Instead of imposing limitations to group size I have a completely different idea:
- Keep groups exactly the way they are now
- Make it easier(less time consuming) to get to legendary, so casual players can get legendary characters within a reasonable timeframe.
- Make performing at a legendary level a straining activity. Ie, make it something you cannot have active constantly

This way casual players can form up the 5-6 people they are when they are on and get a big performance boost by all turning on pushing for a legendary performance. Enabling them to do and explore content suited for a 10 man group.
Hardcore players can steamroll through 10 man content with 5-10 players without legendary performance simply due to gear.
Endgame content hardcore players can do with gear and legendary performance.

This way you change the game for everyone without really changing anything.
To keep performing at legendary beyond the standard limitations I suppose you could impose an actual cost. Like a drain of rank%.

Jorake

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2014, 07:14:26 PM »
I think removing legendary is a horrible idea. What do you work for then? I was frowning when they took out legendary races! Because it was a rank you achieved and it paid off because you could then make a legend race character. GO DARGONESTI!!! So now if you remove legend whats the point? When has anyone ever said "damn if you had trained your turn skill we could of done that easier" That is the only reason i would ever train turn to superb as a goal; to get legendary status. This also goes along with the group size factor. Being a legendary group of 5man is very powerful with the right classes.

Alecto

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2014, 07:15:03 PM »
Tier group size based on zone difficulty

low - 3 man
low-mid - 4 man
mid - 5 man
mid-high - 6 man
high - 7 man
elite - 10 man

Now we won't have 10 man laying down the smack in Druid's Nook anymore!

mpriki

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2014, 03:41:05 AM »
i feel like its already decided that group size will be reduced, i dont like the idea at all, but anyways
why group max size should go from 10 to 5 and not 10 to 8? a 5 group max size should change arctic totaly

also i ll post the same thing as i did before beacause i feel it is the solution to all this.

buff classes through equipment and make them available to all ppl. keep some elite elite items lim on 1 or 2
that way smaller groups will able to acquire better equipment then move to a harder zone for better equipment and so on.

it will be possible do hard zones to group as a 5 man if you spend time on lower zones and gather equiment or make a group of 10 and skip lower zones.

really most of us are old, married and some have babies etc. when i zone i am not focused 100%, if baby cries =afk in groups of 10 there is always a back up, in groups of 5 there is no room for that. so zoning will be like 80% afk because every single member is valuable to be focused. Always there is some1 in groups semi-afk or afk.

Speaking of my self i dont think i will be able to zone at all in 5 man runs because i cant really be focused on pc for 1-2 hours. Soloing is boring after some time.... So....