Author Topic: Alignment -- Next Wipe  (Read 3442 times)

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Aristox

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Alignment -- Next Wipe
« on: January 22, 2014, 02:08:47 PM »
Alignment Squeeze

The current game has 10 alignments, but for the most part they really break down into 3: Good, Evil and Neutral.  The sub-alignment (Lawful, Chaotic, etc) are almost always useless.  There are a few pieces of gear that use them, and some limits around classes (Paladin) and races (Hylar Dwarf), but they don't add a lot to the game.

Our plan is pretty obvious: Squeeze down to the 3 main alignments and dump all of the sub alignments.

We don't think this will have much impact on the day to day of the game for the players, but it will make my life easier on the code side for sure.


Experience Bonus/Penalty for Alignment

These numbers aren't solidified yet, so don't get stuck on them, but we are currently looking at the following for bonuses and penalties to experience based on alignment.

You are: Good
  • Killing Evil:  +10%
  • Killing Neutral: +/- 0%
  • Killing Good: -10%

You are: Evil
  • Killing Evil: -10%
  • Killing Neutral: +/- 0%
  • Killing Good: +10%

You are: Neutral
  • Killing Evil: +5%
  • Killing Neutral: -10%
  • Killing Good: +5%

Given the current layout of mob alignments this may make you think one alignment or another has an advantage, we have similar thoughts so this may change later.  We might also convert some mob alignments as well.


Changing Alignment

This is one area we haven't worked out yet.  I can just list our goals and let you know we will have an answer later. Feel free to offer suggestions.

Goals:
  • Not grindy for the sake of being grindy
  • Not cheap, but everyone should be able to obtain it
  • Obvious how it occurs (could be as simple as a help file)
  • Prevent constant alignment changes, probably with some sort of cooldown


This is a short dev post, sorry. I was on vacation for the last week and didn't have a lot of time to organize my thoughts.  Something better will come up next week.

Dyl

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 02:59:21 PM »
Neutral killing neutral gets exp penalty?  Doesn't make much sense.  Probably a pain in the ass but you could consider having neutral exp bonuses scale or slide based on recent activity... start 0/0/0 and as you kill more evils you'll get bonus on good or visa versa.  Neutral vs Neutral should be 0% regardless.

What about alignment change?

corey

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2014, 03:08:22 PM »
Alignment Squeeze

The current game has 10 alignments, but for the most part they really break down into 3: Good, Evil and Neutral.  The sub-alignment (Lawful, Chaotic, etc) are almost always useless.  There are a few pieces of gear that use them, and some limits around classes (Paladin) and races (Hylar Dwarf), but they don't add a lot to the game.

Our plan is pretty obvious: Squeeze down to the 3 main alignments and dump all of the sub alignments.

We don't think this will have much impact on the day to day of the game for the players, but it will make my life easier on the code side for sure.


Experience Bonus/Penalty for Alignment

These numbers aren't solidified yet, so don't get stuck on them, but we are currently looking at the following for bonuses and penalties to experience based on alignment.

You are: Good
  • Killing Evil:  +10%
  • Killing Neutral: +/- 0%
  • Killing Good: -10%

You are: Evil
  • Killing Evil: -10%
  • Killing Neutral: +/- 0%
  • Killing Good: +10%

You are: Neutral
  • Killing Evil: +5%
  • Killing Neutral: -10%
  • Killing Good: +5%

Given the current layout of mob alignments this may make you think one alignment or another has an advantage, we have similar thoughts so this may change later.  We might also convert some mob alignments as well.


Changing Alignment

This is one area we haven't worked out yet.  I can just list our goals and let you know we will have an answer later. Feel free to offer suggestions.

Goals:
  • Not grindy for the sake of being grindy
  • Not cheap, but everyone should be able to obtain it
  • Obvious how it occurs (could be as simple as a help file)
  • Prevent constant alignment changes, probably with some sort of cooldown


This is a short dev post, sorry. I was on vacation for the last week and didn't have a lot of time to organize my thoughts.  Something better will come up next week.

In the current game, the players, generally, play neutral for one of three reasons: new to the game, red robe mage, or to use pre-determined neutral-only gear that their character is being specifically designed for.

Let's be completely honest - the neutral-only gear sucks ass compared to the other alignments' availability. Up until and still including now, neutral alignment not only had the worst "elite" equipment, but they also had the worst time(as in double the amount of time required to level) gaining experience.

If items in the current game don't change alignment restrictions from what they are right now, I almost feel like neutrals should be gaining experience at a much higher rate than good or evil.

What would you think of something like....

You are: Good

    Killing Evil:  +10%
    Killing Neutral: - 5%
    Killing Good: -10%


You are: Evil

    Killing Evil: -10%
    Killing Neutral: - 5%
    Killing Good: +10%


You are: Neutral

    Killing Evil: +5%
    Killing Neutral: +/- 0%
    Killing Good: +5%

Aristox

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2014, 03:11:08 PM »
Re: Corey

We talked about it.  But we would rather fix the underlying problems facing Neutrals than give them some rigged up bonuses.  Expect gear problems to be addressed.

Chisul

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2014, 03:45:19 PM »
I would like to see an opt_changealignment flag added. If the flag is on, your chars alignment will begin to shift one direction or the other dependent on player actions...hit a critical threshold and the alignment jumps automatically similar to how skills will occasionally jump from fair to good without having to visit a guild.

If the flag is off, no matter what you do your alignment is static and cannot change.

We could even incentivize the flag (with a requisite cool down) so if you go opt_change alignment you gain a slight bonus to exp awarded vs those that would rather protect the alignment at all costs. As long as the option has a painful enough cool down to prevent abuse, it might add a fun dynamic.

Hoss

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 05:01:07 PM »
Don't base assumptions on how the game currently works, that will be a pitfall and lead you astray. In the future there will be equal "desire" to play each alignment and you should pick the one that best suits your game play goals and what you find most fun.

gulca

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 08:45:26 PM »
Since we are re-thinking without necessary sticking to our current system, here are some of my thoughts.

This might sound weird, but what does alignment really add as far as game play goes?

Our current system gives:
1. Eq distribution.
2. Exp bonus.
3. Class play restriction.

I know this is a fantasy game, but which modern games have such restrictions? You are evil when you act evil, not what your "alignment" depicts you to be. And you appear evil only to certain group of people, but can be good as far as your clanmates are concerned.

Back to the above 3 points which we can do away the concept totally.

1. Eq zap due to good/evil/neutral align? That doesn't make much sense. Have items be ineffective or cause damage over time to wielder (class/race check) if you really need to distribute weapons around.

2. Exp bonus? Bogus really. I get the same experience when I punch a hole in the heart of my target regardless of what he thinks his alignment is. Now, when a goblin kill a hylar or a silvernesti elf? Give him 5 times bonus xp.

3. Class play restriction? Currently, a paladin can in theory go random (and never really help anyone) and he's still considered "good"?

Most of the stuff derived from "alignment" can readily be distributed to race and class.

In short: Get rid of alignments: No more eq zap!

Dandalf

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 04:55:34 AM »
One thing I can see sucking is grouping.  If you aren't all the same alignment....well.....

Anthony

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 07:49:45 AM »
Outside of mages, the only reason any alignment gets chosen is gear... and this extends further out than paladins/dark knights... what is the ratio of evil thieves to good thieves?

The setup with mages that each alignment essentially ends up being a subclass seems to work reasonably well (balance issues aside), maybe that could be expanded to all classes.

Black Robe / Red Robe / White Robe
Dark Knight / <some neutral "Ronin"-esque thing> / Paladin
Thief / Rogue / Dirge (or whatever)
etc.

Maybe the good-aligned thief class gets some group buff ability or way to sneakily redirect damage from casters back to the tank.

corey

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 11:45:46 AM »
Outside of mages, the only reason any alignment gets chosen is gear... and this extends further out than paladins/dark knights... what is the ratio of evil thieves to good thieves?

The setup with mages that each alignment essentially ends up being a subclass seems to work reasonably well (balance issues aside), maybe that could be expanded to all classes.

Black Robe / Red Robe / White Robe
Dark Knight / <some neutral "Ronin"-esque thing> / Paladin
Thief / Rogue / Dirge (or whatever)
etc.

Maybe the good-aligned thief class gets some group buff ability or way to sneakily redirect damage from casters back to the tank.

Or maybe just the opposite? Will we see a possibility of red black and white robe just being an alignment flag? I would love to play my preferred version (skills and spells) of mage under my preferred alignment.

reed23

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 04:23:49 PM »
I think the proposed XP changes will be awesome for grouping.  I am very surprised that an evil will only get - 10% for killing evil mobs.  That would mean that if an evil kills an evil dragon that gives 100k exp, the evil would get 90k and the goodie would get 110k.  As of right now, that is extremely different, especially for good aligned chars.  The change will definitely help people looking for groups because there should no longer be "oh, you're a goodie, we are running goodie zones, it's not worth your time."

gnua

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 09:29:01 PM »
One thing I can see sucking is grouping.  If you aren't all the same alignment....well.....

This will make grouping people of differing alignments 10 times easier than it currently is.

Malaki

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 04:25:18 PM »
Aristox could you provide a formula example.  I read the info a couple of different ways, and not sure which is what you meant

Mob Goodie gives base 1000xp:
  Evil    : 1000 * 1.1 = gains 1100xp
  Good : 1000 * 0.9 = gains   900xp
  Neut  : 1000 * 1.5 = gains 1500xp

or

Mob Goodie has base 1000xp:
  Evil    : 1000 * 1.1 = gains 1100xp
  Good :-1000 * 0.9 = loses   900xp
  Neut  : 1000 * 1.5 = gains 1500xp

etc.

Zozen

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2014, 10:34:25 AM »
1.05 for neutral

Malaki

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Re: Alignment -- Next Wipe
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2014, 03:54:52 PM »
Math is hard.