Author Topic: Are mobs too stupid?  (Read 18362 times)

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Aristox

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Are mobs too stupid?
« on: September 10, 2013, 06:34:16 PM »
I have been poking at the mob AI code (calling it AI is very much an overstatement) for another set of changes (which I will detail in a post soon) and I was considering a few upgrades. I am not talking about a massive overhaul, mostly a cleanup to make the code more readable and to assure that it is functional.  Once that part is done, I might put some effort into having the mobs make slightly better decisions.

So my question to the players is, should I bother?  Would smarter mobile actions be a welcome change or a terrible change?

I am not even sure how much better the decisions would be, but before I put any thought into it I was hoping for some input.

As a brief example of what I am seeing:  Mobs are weighted to cast spells, if they have them, WAY more than use skills.  So currently a paladin mob might do almost no skills throughout a fight just because it can mem spells, even if none of those spells are useful.  That would be changed to allow more avenging faith and strikes, etc.

I am being vague on purpose, so if you want details I will try to provide them, but don't count on it.

sart

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2013, 06:57:03 PM »
I like the idea.  It will make the game harder, but more in line with fighting a player. 

Mage mobs casting blur and shield against a melee class when they are at awful health never made sense to me. 

One big change that I think is needed but will make things harder is that thief mobs do not stab after couping presently.   If they coup, then they should stab.  However, some mobs stab damage is a bit out of line from what it should be at the same time.

reed23

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2013, 07:13:46 PM »
My opinion is - yes, it would be cool if the mobs were smarter, but i think there are much larger fish to fry right now.  I am no coder, but i would imagine this would take quite a lot of time, so I guess i'm trying to say that this wouldn't be high on my priority list.

fulloflife

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2013, 08:56:19 PM »
far be it for me to tell you what to do with your time- seems to me there are better things to worry about.

Zozen

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2013, 10:23:43 PM »
I've actually found that some of the more interesting fights are the newer ones that have "smarter AI" incorporated into the mobs requiring groups to think about how to accomplish them. However, if you were to apply this in a more general sense across the game you'd make it more difficult for soloers/small groups. Some areas are only do-able right now because the mobs are stupid.

Jorquin

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2013, 11:47:24 PM »
mob ai is pretty bad

i can solo most of the healer +1 duo mob combos (of which theres a few) where one verbally whines for a heal, just by stabbing the healer once - after which they rest
so even if their duo partner does their "heal me ****" type spec when they're low, the healer is resting and they just die.

mobs rarely bash, often healers dont even heal themselves. dk mobs casting unholy might, mages casting weaken and shield. you'd have to be careful though, if you make it so every warrior is going to spam bash or the mages are going to just spam force bolt, game content will be significantly harder than it is now

it'd be cool to see some higher level mobs casting calm, like that mage at bmobs and stuff too

Joseph Norton

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 01:15:50 AM »
The AI could be made better, but not too much please.  I think maybe kill the stupid spell casting by caster types and that would be plenty.  Lets not go too crazy... unless your making new mobs... goodie!


Ezio

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2013, 05:02:22 AM »
I think a slight adjustment would be helpful..

Always love seeing a high level shaman cast ethereal path as the first spell in combat.

Tajs

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2013, 11:33:54 AM »
Or just make the big mobs "legend" and use the high skills/spells a bit more would make mobs harder. I do remember the one time when mobs started sitting bashing players, much much death from that :D

snax

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2013, 11:38:54 AM »
Would it be a change that requires a wipe? if so do it!

Maybe can weight non disabling/lower damage skills (target/parry/fence/thrust) upwards also over disabling skills.  (avenge arm/offhand/leg higher weight than head) ?

Zozen

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2013, 01:03:27 PM »
I think in general the mobs are fine, but I'm sure if you set some parameters and instructions for a few 31-35's to go through areas and "edit the coding" on select mobs (i.e. end mobs, unique, rank mobs) to have better AI then it could be a fun benefit. Nothing crazy but scaling from low zones to high zones with increasing difficulty and increasing choice of selecting better spells/skills to use. I'd also like to see more "legendary" mobs with the legendary skills/spells. I think that could add some fun dynamics.

Aristox

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2013, 04:31:35 PM »
Just going to address a couple of themes in the thread instead of replying to specific posts:

1. This shouldn't be a priority.
   Sure. But I never said I was working on it right now, I said I was making other changes and re-noticed what a pile of crap state this code is in.  These kind of replies usually irk me because they ignore the request of the thread and try to divert the thread.  If you have a list of things you think are important post that list, don't come here and hijack.
**(If you are going to post a list of things you think are important to change please keep it to short bullet points, no novels, but try to make sure you what you mean is clear.)

2. <insert bit about mobs currently doing something stupid here>
  This is precisely the size of the change I am looking at.  I would like to make it so the decisions aren't completely stupid. Making smart decisions would be a much longer and more involved process.

3. Newer mobs doing smart things already.
  Most of you probably know this, but we have a system called sub-specs that can be used by creators to individualize mob (and obj, and room) behavior.  All of these smart things are because of the zone creators doing a lot of work with sub specs to make the mobs smart.  This process is very involved and very specific.  I want to make a set of general changes to the internal code for mobs that raises the bar a little, it would be outside the sub spec system completely.

4.  Legend skills/spells/instincts.
  This would be one thing I would like to address long term, probably not in the first pass of these changes.  It would require some creation changes so that only specific mobs could use these skills/spells and it would not be done soon either way.

5. Chain-bashing
  This would be avoided at all costs, but I would like to see mobs bashing casters more often, rather than bashing the tank.

gulca

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 05:12:03 PM »
Would be great if the AI is based on finite state machines than a series of if/else statements. That way, you can build one complex finite state machines (adding more states as you go) and all the mobs can access them. If it's low int, it stays in the "stupid" state, if it's a "angry" or a "boss" it stays in boss states. So zone creators can have a variety of different behaviors just by giving them different "int" value.

I do prefer mobs to have certain predictable behaviors so it's up to the player to find out the best way to handle these kind of mobs.

Like for example, tracking mobs that bashes (with superb skills and no lag) are annoying when you are alone. You get around it once you realized it doesn't entry bash *if* you aren't standing. I consider this a real life learning on a player's skill. If you turn the mob into a "entry bash" no matter what, then it's quickly become a real drag. Or Galazor who keeps on spec'ing every round he's not disabled when he realized that's the most effective strategy.

Dyl

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2013, 10:34:51 PM »
All mobs should follow even if it isn't 'track.'. You aggro me bapt your face.

Alignment should cause more aggro than it does.  Towns included.  Rent in Neraka if you want to be evil.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 10:36:56 PM by Dyl »

Dyl

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Re: Are mobs too stupid?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 10:48:02 PM »
Intellengent bash/stun/silence skill usage on all group members regardless of individual aggro.  Bash that afk healbot plz.