Author Topic: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful  (Read 10783 times)

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Kir

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So last night I was zoning with a group of players who I'd argue are widely recognized as the top zoners who are currently playing the game. This was a combined effort between the clans Dele and Myth. We were trying the last mob in a new zone, and it became apparent after 2-3 hours that after consecutive massrips, we were not going to win regardless. Now we were not the most powerful group the mud could assemble by any means, however we were pretty close to the most powerful group the mud will assemble for realistic purposes. Most of the group was comprised of legendary chars, ranked 30+, with healers, buff mains, bashers, solid dps etc. This made me get to thinking, because the other night I asked a respectable Dele member what kind of zoning they were doing, and he said, most stuff, except for the endgame hard stuff.

So basically here we are. 5 months into a wipe with some people\clans having played consistently through the wipe and they are still very incapable of doing the endgame content of arctic. In fact, they are actually much weaker than they were 2-3 months ago, when a few clans (maybe) had the capability to do some of the end game content.

So here are my points; people seem to think that because we all have legendary chars people are steamrolling and arctic is too easy. In reality, the end game of arctic (in my opinion, the fun stuff besides pvp) is so out of reach that most players lose interest or quit before ever attaining it.

I mean if a combination group of the two best clans currently playing can't access endgame fights, what is going on? Obviously legend chars are not overpowered, and obviously the endgame is not easy in any way shape or form.

And I know people have done the end game content, which is an accomplishment, and kudos to them; while others have done the endgame content using bots, which is as was just hashed out again, going to remain illegal.

So let me try to bring forth a discussion on whether or not endgame content should be made more attainable. Personally I'd like to see the smaller clans like Core\Apoc\Maza\Rgb have better accessibility to endgame content which in my opinion will increase competition for elite gear, making the game more fun etc etc.

If making the end game mobs more accessible means making the fights hit for 400 a round instead of 600, or whether it means removing obscure quest lines with no hints and absurd keywords from group content, I don't know, but I think these ideas should be explored. And this is not to say that I don't believe there should be hard stuff to figure out, which there should be. If you look at a player like Daniel who is great at figuring stuff out, he has a ton of gear that most people have never seen before, which is great and he deserves the elite shinies for figuring that stuff out. However that stuff should remain solo content, while the stuff that requires a 10man should be attainable by the Btowns, RichEs. Nostramazoses of arcticmud, so their perspective clans can enjoy the endgame as well, or at least attempt it.

Thanks for reading, and In my final point I would ask you to consider how many % of arctic players actually reach the end game content, who killed Sleet\Blazewight\Cyan this wipe before they quit. I'd wager maybe only certain members of Dele clan have done all 3, and that is a very small percentage of all the people who have played arctic this wipe.

Dyl

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Your first mistake is that dele is top dog.

btown

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Damn now I want to go kill Sleet.  Blazewight?  never heard of it.

Last wipe Apoc did Cyan probably 5-6 times.  We tried sleet a couple times and died "never take wasymo/ragequit/feiz to sleet"

I would like to see something along the lines of what you are talking about.

One problem I have had with elite zones or things of such is I have no elite friends who share clues,  I would like it better if there was better "starting point" as far as zones/quest goes.  Maybe a mob helping a little more..  hell I don't know. My name is btown and I am a newbie

P.S.  someone pls pm me where to find deep sea diving helmets

Homard

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I was a part of a group that did Cyan with Apoc last wipe and I'm a complete newbie who sucks.  It's possible if you managed to latch on to the right clan.  It was fun to see some "endgame" content for sure.  Maybe one of the high end clans can start taking newbie 30s on high level zone trips like tour guides.

Kir

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I was a part of a group that did Cyan with Apoc last wipe and I'm a complete newbie who sucks.  It's possible if you managed to latch on to the right clan.  It was fun to see some "endgame" content for sure.  Maybe one of the high end clans can start taking newbie 30s on high level zone trips like tour guides.

Let me be straightforward and say that this wipe's cyan has been revamped, and is much different than last wipe's, so if you did it last wipe when it was much easier and you are saying it was fun, then I think you may be indirectly agreeing with what I am saying since we all know that lesser clans have not come near Cyan this wipe.

reed23

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Moral of the story from Hommard and Btown - Botting makes the game more fun and end mobs that are more doable are also more fun.

Aemon

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From my understanding, the only healer who has healed Kraken, Blazewight, and Cyan in the same wipe was a MINE cleric named Riomar.

Riomar ran the same scripts as Monika & Domahnugnuts did the wipe prior. Aemon and Rhonda ran off an enhanced version this wipe.

The actual player behind Riomar is a good player but not a scripter. He's certainly not someone you would ever entrust to main heal manually.

I don't know who else has healed Kraken and Blazewight, but I imagine that in most cases there was at least one fully scripted healer in the group.


« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 10:05:22 PM by Aemon »

RichE

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Okay i've been away for awhile but why is Kir mentioning me in his post? Am i the only one clueless as to who this guy is?

enochvey

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As one of the people involved in that wipefest, I want to offer my perspective on that fight.

There are in game prep items and also ranks that can be bought which would have made that fight significantly easier, but still a massive pain. Without revealing details, there was a negative effect that was being spammed on many members of the group which could have been dealt with by those prep items/ranks.

I don't have a huge issue with prep items being required to do end game fights, but it appeared to me that even with the prep/rank I've mentioned, I wasn't bringing the necessary beef to fully tank that fight as a rank 25+ legend barb with perma steelskin.

Even if/when that spammy negative effect is dealt with, the mechanics of the fight itself made it very diffficult for me to actually bring my full skillset as a barbarian into the picture. I spent most of each attempt 1 or 2 rounds behind what I actually wanted to do because of the amazingly strict need to prioritize targetted rescues and maintain uptime on into the breech over everything else.

The problem is that in a fight with that kind of mele damage on the tank, it is critical for a barb to be able to maintain wild or ghostdance in addition to into the breech and targetted rescues. When these dances are maintained, the damage reduction in situations like that is HUGE, I would argue even essential.  I found it was very difficult to maintain either of these dances when every round required at least one rescue and someone other than a steelskinned tank could easily get one rounded or very close.

There are changes to that fight that if made,  would have made it much more reasonable for that specific group. Making one or both mobs bashable (they appeared not to be), even if still super hardbash comes to mind. Aside from changes to the fight itself, a group would need the prep I mentioned, but more importantly a different class composition than what we had available to us at the time, but that's a whole different post I don't want to make....   

In summary, yes there is some content out there that can steamroll a full group of legend chars without the right prep/rank and who may not have the right group comp available to them. The group composition requirements is what I consider to be a legitimate concern on this specific fight, but aside from some what I would call minor tweaking in that area I think that this fight is fine as it is.

As you said, this group was not the most powerful the mud could have presented, myself as tank included. I think that it's just fine that end game content should require that type of group or something very close, the only thing I'd like to see is greater flexibility in the type of group comps that could accomplish the same thing.

sart

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I solo that fight.

Jorquin

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yeah okay i don't know who aemon is, but thats crap. i healed a lot of it on my proxy healer since thieves are garbage in big fights, and we had another big healer aswell who was present in all three - both characters were controlled by individuals playing those characters solely. those end game fights are no joke, theres no room for playing two characters there. one mistake = 10 deaths. our first time killing blazewight we had fourty deaths, with some people having deleveled.

in reality, the riomar bot was often kicked from groups because it'd spaz out and rock big fat fails due to unexpected mob specs and get us killed.

having never been at any of these fights i think most people posting here aren't really able to comment fairly on whether or not scripted healers are any good at bloodshoal end fights (which mostly, they're not for reasons i won't bother explaining). that said, blazewight is by far the single hardest fight in arctic and makes everything else look weak except maybe the new cyan, who probably looks like a normal person next to arnold schwarzenneger

edit: it dawn'ed on me that arnie is like 65, so that was probably a bad example but you get my point
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 10:14:00 AM by daniel_1 »

Kir

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Ok, so putting the bot discussion aside for the time being, what do Aemons and Daniels actually think about the discussion I was attempting to bring to the table :P

btown

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Nobody gives a shit what Aemon thinks.  Daniel has some credibility however

Ericj

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I have healed all those fights in the same wipe without any scripts of any sort.  We also have done all those fights without any "scripted" healer such as Riomar.

Ericj

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@Kir,

In regards to what this topic is really about, I somewhat agree with you.  It is hard to find a balance.  If our clan was actually playing and we had a lot numbers, we could do most any high end zone in the game.  That goes along with your point because we had high numbers and some quality players *the level of quality is debatable and if you follow Al's off the wall theories :)*.

How do you create a zone that a high end clan won't just completely smash so lower level clans can do?  The end game is hard for a reason.  I'm curious to read more opinions on your post, great topic.