Author Topic: A common arctic misconception: PVE endgame is too easy\Legedary too powerful  (Read 8990 times)

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Jarrad

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Basically I totally disagree with your assessment. Any competitive clan will ensure that each member has at least one legend char. If you want to be able to compete you need people who will play chars that the clan needs, not just what they think is "fun".

Any group with spelled legend shaman, druid, 2 healers, legend main (barb, dk, paladin) +5 legend damaging melee classes can do pretty much any fight. Yes there is some insane specs around and some serious direct damage mobs but that is why healing cloud/regeneration/amelioration blah blah blah was brought in.

Yes you can get rolled in the mud. If you couldn't die sometimes, where is the element of challenge? Don't give up the first time you mass die, analyse the fight and tweak your group accordingly.

Kir

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Basically I totally disagree with your assessment. Any competitive clan will ensure that each member has at least one legend char. If you want to be able to compete you need people who will play chars that the clan needs, not just what they think is "fun".

Any group with spelled legend shaman, druid, 2 healers, legend main (barb, dk, paladin) +5 legend damaging melee classes can do pretty much any fight. Yes there is some insane specs around and some serious direct damage mobs but that is why healing cloud/regeneration/amelioration blah blah blah was brought in.

Yes you can get rolled in the mud. If you couldn't die sometimes, where is the element of challenge? Don't give up the first time you mass die, analyse the fight and tweak your group accordingly.

Ok Jarrad, then please tell me your reasoning for why the endgame content is not being done at all, and was hardly done earlier in the wipe if I am mistaken in my assessment. I am not trying to flame, I am actually really curious and would like to find the root of the problem to be figured out so hopefully something could be done about it.

Brafu

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Legendary did break the game, and all you need to do is take a group of legendary into any pre-legendary zone that would have demanded at-least 8+ spelled/stacked chars and you'll realize that the same thing can be done with far, far less when legendary is used. So, legendary did break the game, in fact it pretty much smashed virtually every single zone. But there have been revamps and new zones added since legendary was added, and those changes took legendary into account (thus why things at the very end are even harder now).

But, even with the changes it's still very possible for any clan to do the end zones/fights, provided they have the drive and dedication and are able to build up the strength in the first place (ie. ranks/spells/eq). They also need knowledge, and I would argue that knowledge is the single most important factor since it's also the hardest one to achieve (unless you get it handed to you).

But, if you want the "root cause" then I see it as being fairly simple, and obvious. It takes a LOT of work, time, and dedication to build up the strength/knowledge/experience it takes to do the hardest area's of this mud, so you won't be seeing a group that got thrown together from whoever was still around having much of a chance, especially if there's a distinct lack of knowledge about the specific zone/fight. It takes an entire clan working together for weeks, or month's, to be able to do certain fights and zones, so without some actual direction and intent on being able to do the best of the best in terms of zones/fights... *shrugs*

Keith

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Legendary did make the game, at least most zones, much easier.  However, there are some zones mentioned Kir that require a full group of legendaries to have a decent shot at winning.  Not just legendaries, but stacked to the teeth legendaries.  I think that with the current playerbase, keeping legendary in place in order to be able to do zones on less numbers is crucial.  On that note, I'm not sure of the point of the push of some people to remove legendary: without legendaries or bots, the hardest zone that could be done on most hours of the day is... Sanction?  Last Gaard?  Forgotten Temple?  I just don't see that many 10 mans running around...

Aemon

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I guess my understanding was incorrect.

Thanks for the corrections Daniel & Eric.

Jorquin

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i previously said that im not going to discuss hard fight mechanics, but after some thought its actually an issue worth raising for a entirely seperate reason

some fights are going to have to be changed significantly if the maximum group size is reduced (im thinking of one in particular) which has specs that are distributed amongst all the people in the room. if the max group size is reduced, people would be taking more specs - some of which lag for a couple rounds, which if left as is and the max group was reduced to say 7, its quite conceivable your healers would just never be able to move and you'd all die.

that aside, i do agree there are certain things in arctic that are extremely difficult -but i actually like that. i think for the most part, the game is too easy now.

historically there has always been extremely difficult stuff that wasn't available to your casual players. the days of prepping for 6-8 hours for hard fights are surely gone, but i still think there should be some content that's extremely difficult. i'm sure at one point or another people posting on here (mostly) have been in the situation where you're legendary, probably rank 25-26, and nearly max eq. at that point, all zones are a face-roll. you need hard fights (really, really hard ones) to keep you interested. in previous wipes, solving and dying to these extremely difficult things was the only thing keeping us interested, simply put - it becomes the only reason left to play....    other than just going randoming which i think just pushes people away, which is bad.


Kir

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i previously said that im not going to discuss hard fight mechanics, but after some thought its actually an issue worth raising for a entirely seperate reason

some fights are going to have to be changed significantly if the maximum group size is reduced (im thinking of one in particular) which has specs that are distributed amongst all the people in the room. if the max group size is reduced, people would be taking more specs - some of which lag for a couple rounds, which if left as is and the max group was reduced to say 7, its quite conceivable your healers would just never be able to move and you'd all die.

that aside, i do agree there are certain things in arctic that are extremely difficult -but i actually like that. i think for the most part, the game is too easy now.

historically there has always been extremely difficult stuff that wasn't available to your casual players. the days of prepping for 6-8 hours for hard fights are surely gone, but i still think there should be some content that's extremely difficult. i'm sure at one point or another people posting on here (mostly) have been in the situation where you're legendary, probably rank 25-26, and nearly max eq. at that point, all zones are a face-roll. you need hard fights (really, really hard ones) to keep you interested. in previous wipes, solving and dying to these extremely difficult things was the only thing keeping us interested, simply put - it becomes the only reason left to play....    other than just going randoming which i think just pushes people away, which is bad.

I am going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't remember there historically being extremely difficult stuff. I remember by this time in a wipe, many clans were running cyan (historically the hardest endgame fight), while the top clans could spam it. At the moment, the top clans can't even do the endgame stuff, and the sub-clans haven't come close to it.

ralfiepoo

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Out of curiosity, how many killed cyan this wipe and how much of shoal was done?

reed23

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SOB massripped to Cyan 2 times, and 10 minutes after one of the massrips took down a 16 man wild group.

Jorquin

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cyan died to some euros, not sure how much of blood shoal was done. to my knowledge, clan quest wasn't done either.


edited: frankly this isn't due to the strength or skill of players. dont get me wrong, better players helps. but generally the difference between the people who do the hardest stuff and those who don't is a willingness to accept the real possibility of a no-cr mass rip, which many people are just too attached to their current shinies to gamble it for greater shinies. this and a lack of time also contributes.

Zozen

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Daniel hit the nail on the head.

ralfiepoo

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cyan died to some euros, not sure how much of blood shoal was done. to my knowledge, clan quest wasn't done either.


edited: frankly this isn't due to the strength or skill of players. dont get me wrong, better players helps. but generally the difference between the people who do the hardest stuff and those who don't is a willingness to accept the real possibility of a no-cr mass rip, which many people are just too attached to their current shinies to gamble it for greater shinies. this and a lack of time also contributes.

I think it's pretty accurate what you wrote. When we(BiA) did cyan, it was all old players who knew the terms, and was able to keep it cool due to experience imo. We didn't get to do the last fight in shoal though, but I wondered if anyone had, since it's such a fun place and it'd be sad if noone got to see it. I love this mud, and I love the challenges in the "end" zones.

I kind of want to give everyone who plays this exceptional game a shoutout, because of all the fun and rage it has brought me hehe. Especially Aristox and Hoss, it's an ungrateful thing mostly I am sure, but I for one really appreciate how the game is being run(Morgion back in the days was too dominant imo, which I'm sure many experienced first hand). But I think you two are doing it great, as much as everyone doesn't always agree on decisions, I think most would concur.

Thank you everyone I've played with and against in the past 16 years, by far too many to mention you all. I will more or less retire from now on, or at least till my life can find the time I need to invest when I play this game. I hope the game will still exist by then, because no other game has ever come close to being Arctic for me.

All my best to all of you

Ralf aka Pinjalas/Tvebak/Kulde/Tylle/Tylk/Drune and some other druids over the years that I forgot.

Al

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I haven't played Arctic in a couple of months since getting addicted to LoL (thanks Daniel - and then you move your character to a different server!), but a clan with a 10 man of legendary characters can/should be able to kill every mob in the game. It may be challenging and you'll have to employ good tactics, but eff it, everyone knows that if you know the zone/fight/strats, you can complete the challenge.

Maybe I'll have to log on one of these days to try out the new Soth.

Jorquin

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maleki stop potating on me or you'll have to fight me irl

Alecto

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I think it is significant to note that there was pretty much a 8-10 man of legends on for almost last 36 hours (with occasional gaps where people napped) and many of the hardest parts of the game were attempted, mass-ripped, won, or stared at from a safe distance and decided today wasn't the day.  If anyone can keep a group of 6 core players on for 5 hours straight there really is no limit to what they can accomplish on this game.  But that kind of dedication (and willingness to die repeatedly while learning) is hard with an aging playerbase that has increasing "real life" responsibilities.

That said, I think the game is as it should be - there should be fights that even a 10 man of stacked rank 30+ legend characters will probably lose.