Author Topic: The Best Idea I Ever Had  (Read 5766 times)

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RichE

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The Best Idea I Ever Had
« on: August 05, 2013, 11:40:54 PM »
I missed all the talk about botting and took my time reading it. I have never multi'd another character and also feel at a disadvantage as many pointed out. I also understand the enormous burden of policing the no_bot policy. I thought for a long time about it and couldn't think of a solution. Then driving home had a great idea and had to share it.

You can't police botting from IP address' because people move and they can be created etc. Also, even if you find botters and delete them they can just do the same thing next wipe. Names change, IP addresses change, but what is the one value that if you played by the rules should never change wipe after wipe. The first is your email address. I had mine for almost 7 years, and another email going back another 10 years. The other, is your Clan name, though i admit that can change.

So my name is Richard. I play in clan Core and have used the same email address for 7 years. I've never been deleted for botting, though i have done some questionable abusing of game mechanics. And CORE has never been a clan associated with botting or game abusing. What does that mean? It means that my email address and my clan name have Intangible value.

Here's the great idea... Put a REAL value to this intangible one. Associate a TRUST value to my email address and clan name.

This value increases each year or game hour you play, however the gods want to make the algorithm. And based on what that value is will different aspects of the game. What spells you can learn, what zones you can enter.

You can be fair and start everyone at the same trust value. However, in 2 years if Sanjuro creates a new zone he may not want anyone under 1 years of trust value to enter it or wield equipment associated with that zone. Or you can be gods and give players or clans you feel have trust a certain value starting next wipe and everyone else 0.

What if I have a friend that just started playing but he can't enter any high zones? Or a new player? Well if your Clan has a high trust value that value will encompass characters who join your group or clan. They can then enter the zone group, but maybe can't wield High level equipment from the zone.

The ultimate goal is that in 3 years, why do i care if you have a group full of bots if you can't enter Silvanesti Tower, or hold dragon orb, or study nightmare? Players and clans that can't be trusted, lose trust everytime their email address is associated with botting and cannot enjoy End Game content after a few years.

End Note: With this idea you build trust with the game and if you break that trust by botting or abusing game mechanics, immortals can put your trust to 0 or lower it by a certain value. Much more devastating than deleting a character. You build trust as a Clan in the same way and lose it as such.

Finally, I'm not a programmer but these are simple computations that when applied evenly can be easily scaled. In addition, any small problems encountered can be solved by Immortal intervention. Such as changing a clan name but keeping the same points.

Thank you for reading this, probably my longest forum message ever.

Gnua

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2013, 10:13:31 AM »
I like the idea of trust, but I dont think email address is the best way to implement it - it's easy to get multiple email addresses. A master character name that survives the wipe and has a trust value should work just as well.

The only drawback I can think of is that a "brand new" (i.e. returning) player will need to have the same trust value (i.e. restrictions) as the most abusive botter because the worst offenders will be churning through accounts and always looking like or pretending to be new/returning players. A possibilities come to mind:

1. maybe the number of genuinely new players is small enough for this not to matter
2. returning players could have the benefit of the doubt (default level of trust) from their forum account
3. make the punishment for having "low trust" not painful for the genuinely new characters: cannot equip limited eq, cannot lead a group of 4 or more, cannot legend, cannot haste-age, can only create 3 characters per month, cannot select prime stat, cannot create a mage, cannot reach level 25, level cannot exceed age, cannot take conclave test, can only use who 20 times per hour, limit playtime on an account to 24 hours a week, cannot do quests (crown, lily, regen, heal, level 5 instincts), has relo sickness (cannot cast aggressive spells or skills) after relo, cannot attack a character affected by summon, locate object fails frequently vs limited items, cannot do aggressive acts within 3 tix of logging on or using who.

gulca

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2013, 11:03:24 AM »
Interesting idea. Some questions that ppl will be asking.

1. How do you stay trusted all the time?
I've been caught botting (as in single char script skilling/mining) and have reported game bugs (like book load bug) that can be potentially game changing.

We go back to the same grey area where the "whoever is present" staff have to step in and make some decision that some players will like and some that will hate.

From the current forum users, it seems we have a more "low trust" base than a trust worthy base. And so, we have to stay goodie old shoes for 3 years to get the benefits of good trust? See you in 2016 then.

Jorake

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2013, 01:49:21 PM »
I don't think this is a good idea at all. How much can you possibly take away from someone? Oh i can't study nightmare? Ok i'll come in with 7 bashers and 3 mtn scouts and melee your group to death. You gonna take away bash? And you can't really put a value on game play.. Ok i play for 2-3 years solid and then I want to take a break for a while and go away for a year or 2. I come back and then what? Is my value reset? Lets say my clan has a great value but I haven't played in a while. They go do a zone and an item pops that only i can use. Can I now not use that item because my value isn't as high as my clans? Or does the clan value trump it?

Its the right type of thinking. Reward those who haven't been caught and play by the rules. But I don't think this would do it.

RichE

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2013, 09:05:15 PM »
Problem i see with master character name is that you can't be unknown. With email address you can still have anonymity to the game world, though not to the immortals.

I think staff should implement rules as they see fit and adjust as necessary. I would make it so trust value stays with your email address regardless of if you take a break. I think that the value should be hidden so that it can't be gamed. So you don't really know how long or what the max value is etc if there is one.

With the clan trust value, again i'd rather have staff adjust it as it goes.

This plan is for stopping botting incrementally, it won't do it automatically.

Again with how easy this is to implement. I don't see why it can't be implemented and points accumulated for a wipe. No harm in that.

Super Tacoman

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2013, 11:05:21 PM »
you think people would still play arctic while blocked from zones/equipment/spells?  there is no way.  you might as well siteban the people with low trust.

and - welcome to arctic new player!  you wont be able to get the fun items and spells that other players have, but if you are very good for 3 years we might allow it!

come on son.  thats not going to work.

RichE

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 12:32:30 AM »
Someone school either me or Tacoman whether you can use siteban to control botting. I'm thinking since sitebanning works same way as IP address it would be ineffective.

Second, and I honestly am not here to keep defending the idea but...

"you think people would still play arctic while blocked from zones/equipment/spells?  there is no way." <----That is the POINT! lol.

Kir

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 08:07:27 AM »
Telling a guy who's been playing this game for 10+ years that he can't have any good gear or go into any zones is the same as sitebanning him anyway

Gnua

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2013, 09:38:01 AM »
Telling a guy who's been playing this game for 10+ years that he can't have any good gear or go into any zones is the same as sitebanning him anyway

Sitebanning a botter will do nothing as they obviously know how to get an alternate IP. The entire point of Richard E's idea is to be more effective than a siteban.

and - welcome to arctic new player!  you wont be able to get the fun items and spells that other players have, but if you are very good for 3 years we might allow it!

It could be shorter than 3 years. Probably just long enough to make sure that it isnt someone untrusted pretending to be new. And besides, how many genuinely new players:

 - have limited eq
 - lead a group of 4 or more,
 - legend
 - haste-age
 - create more than 3 characters per month
 - really care if they select prime stat,
 - reach level 25
 - reach level 30
 - are higher level than their age
 - pass conclave test
 - use who more than 20 times per hour
 - play more than 24 hours a week
 - do quests (crown, lily, regen, heal, level 5 instincts),
 - cast aggressive spells or use aggressive skills after relo
-  attack a character affected by summon
 - locate object on limited items
 - do aggressive acts within 3 tix of logging on or using who.

In addition, I would think that someone pretending to be new would slip up within five minutes if not five seconds of being observed by a wizinvis immort. A returning player might be harder to distinguish from an untrusted person creating a brand new account after being punished.

sart

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 11:08:30 AM »
Honestly, we already have our identities that everyone knows us by.

Im Sart... Everyone when making another char or at the start of a wipe tells people who they are.. and they use some static value.  "This is Seb".. Nate.. Ilya..  We are who we are.  Why not link our chars to that identity that only the imms can see?

Although, Aristox said he had never heard of me a couple weeks ago.. so maybe that wouldnt work either!  If we had an imm that actually knew the people that play it could work tho.

Super Tacoman

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2013, 11:21:23 AM »
Sitebanning a botter will do nothing as they obviously know how to get an alternate IP. The entire point of Richard E's idea is to be more effective than a siteban.

i can just imagine hoss stalking new players and trying to judge if they are genuinely new or pretending to be new.

and they can get an alternate IP but they have no idea how to make a 2nd 3rd, 100th email account?  i played from 3 different emails last wipe and i know the emails of at least 5 other players who sometimes play.  a few more if i still have them in my contacts from years ago.

i dont think the immortals want to stop anyone from playing.  i believe they would like as many players as possible including the miserable cheating botters.  they are looking for ways to keep them playing and not have the need to bot. 

Aristox

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 11:45:25 AM »
This isn't going to happen.

I can go into details, but I don't have time right now.  There are way too many holes here to make it a viable idea.

Kir

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 11:47:35 AM »
and by the way, I truly hope this isn't the best idea you've ever had.

Gnua

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 04:22:33 PM »
i dont think the immortals want to stop anyone from playing.  i believe they would like as many players as possible including the miserable cheating botters.  they are looking for ways to keep them playing and not have the need to bot.

I thought the entire reason to delete someone is to stop them from playing.

Hoss

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Re: The Best Idea I Ever Had
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 08:17:33 PM »
While I am very appreciative with the idea, I am not sure it really solves anything. Trust is not an object we could quantify with the Arctic code, but more of something we build up over time by being honest in our dealings with each other.