Author Topic: State of the Bot Address  (Read 55619 times)

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Jarrad

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #105 on: July 27, 2013, 07:23:41 AM »
The bot issue: Imms do not have time or resources to effectively and accurately stop people from botting. Those players that want to bot, will bot. Those that don't want to don't have to regardless of if it is legal or not. So long as it is illegal, be prepared to have chars deleted if you choose to bot. If you are polite and the imm is kind you will still walk away with 1 char, if you're an asshole, your whole clan will be deleted...

Implications of allowing botting: pk, zoning, "winning the game". The only really significant factor that botting changes is time. Characters are leveled simultaneously and there is an exponential factor in speed and power limited by method of control of bots.

If bots are automated (Aemon style) there efficiency is limited only by the scripting capabilities of the controller, and continuous improvement and customization to specific zones is just a matter of time.

If bots are one char alt-tabbing between two windows and simultaneously controlling them then there is a self limiting factor. Two can be comfortably controlled, three or four at a stretch, depending on class choices and level of triggers.

Ultimately this time efficiency has pros and cons.

Pros:
-Zoning starts as soon as you log on.
-Challenging content of the game is made accessible earlier.
-Exploration is opened up to players more easily.
-Small playerbase clans can compete with larger playerbase clans (to an extent).

Cons:
-The game gets boring earlier.
-Unless pk is regulated to a maximum of 10 chars vs 10 chars, the clan with more people wins.
-As exploration is made more possible, again the game gets boring earlier (provided the content is figured, some of arctics keywords are ridiculously obscure).
-The social aspect of the game suffers to an extent.

Ultimately in my opinion there is no in game solution to fixing arctic's playerbase. If you want players, come up with an efficient facebook client and bring Arctic to the mainstream...

Personally, for one reason only I suggest allowing botting. This is simply because it can't be effectively stopped. The ingame charmy system is an intriguing idea, but if it is implemented it will not address the botting issue. Those who want to bot, will bot, and those who don't, won't.

If those who are antibotting want to stop it, start paying staff to police it. And policing all the other cheating that goes on...

Kir

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #106 on: July 27, 2013, 07:31:38 AM »
lol @ the two guys who think that 30 players online are real players. Just fyi, I see 9 on atm, and if presumably half are bots, that means 4-5 people are playing this game, and of course that's assuming the 9 aren't being played by an Aemon type player, a guy playing 8-10 by himself etc.

Also, Lol@ people who got pked by Mumu and Essovius and blaming bots. That's actually Lottie and Tim, and I imagine they had Shesh and Dale tethered. Hilarious.

Its still impossible for me to believe that the Kilians and Btowns do not realize that a legalized multi-play system would give them an advantage while the people who already do not follow the rules would remain the same. The point of my entire post was because I played by the rules this wipe, and it just simply did not keep my interest as when I botted two wipes ago. I promise you, wild or rank would beat us in a 10v10, and we'd always come back, because zoning while botting is more fun. If you look at this wipe, wild lost 3 pvp battles, and the entire clan just disappeared. They didn't try to recover, they were just done. Hell, I've lost 3 pvp battles in a day and came back when I had bots. There is still too many people who have no clue how much the game improves while multi-ing who are throwing their opinions out based on the fact that they are mad they got pked by once.

But yes, I'd probably play the entire wipe if I could multi-play. As I've said before, this wipe I did not multi-, I played a legend thief which had decent gear (I was probably the 3rd best thief after Vespin and Daniel). I could solo a ton, but after 2 months of soloing the same things over and over I got bored and with no pvp and I quit. I love this game, which is why I want to see it adapt so it can survive.

corey

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #107 on: July 27, 2013, 08:14:52 AM »
The only people pressing this issue is the botters themselves.  I think this thread very much brings us to a crossroad for obvious reasons so there needs to be a middle ground solution.  But to outright legalize botting, even 1 char...  smh

I suggest making strong charmies equivalent to characters with basic commands,  maybe you can purchase more skills for them.  cleric/scout/basher types who are level 30 or what not.   Bots is like a virus or the government.  they are going to destroy us

This isn't true. I'm all for multiing and I've never done it.

Aristox: No, I wouldn't play the game for any longer at the start of a wipe. Though my time spent would be much more enjoyable and there is a chance I would return in the middle of the wipe to enjoy the game by myself.

Zervun

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #108 on: July 27, 2013, 09:12:11 AM »
My 2 cents -

I'm a old fogey at arctic. I started around 93 - 94. My early days consisted of my shitty ass Paladin (I think he had like 15 str or something) and running around with Oeschard/Oligo and our lady friend who I have never seen again (Karenina) just outside of Solace. Oh how many deaths. I was a BBS dude, read Dragonlance books and found it through a search. I still have my 6 cd set of Redhat 2.0 CDs somewhere that I ran when I telnetted in.

I played heavily for years. I think I stopped playing heavily around 99 or so. I've led clans into some of the largest clan wars, I remember 10+ v 10+ people fights, I've been a minion, I've soloed. Since that time I come back periodically because I miss it but always have a "sigh" due to population. I still keep coming back.

Recently I've come back and am really pleasantly surprised at the changes and work the imms have done to take little frustration shit out of the game. For me this is the first time I've really seen more "usability" changes go in.

Going forward I think the big question is what will sustain the population. You are smoking crack if you think that there is going to be a huge surge in new players, with really any change. What arctic does have is a damn good mud with 1000s of players that have experienced it. I'm guessing like myself they will think about it and log in once in a blue moon, make a character and give it a go for a period of time. There might be a few new players here and there but probably 90+ percent of the time it is going to be word of mouth. I'm not sure about you, but at 38, over the last 20 years I've tried to get people to play here that like other games - I have heavily played mmorpgs, and I have only got maybe two people who even wanted to try it. I've done the whole MMORPG thing, led a 150+ raiding guild in EQ1, and I still come back to here.

With that said - I've had the capability since I started to bot if I wanted to. I've been able to open multiple telnet sessions since 93ish. I have never botted. I think it goes against the spirit of Arctic. Seriously difficult, non forgiving and massively rewarding playing experience. Hit a DT at 1x and lose everything? Having to build relationships with players to get what you want? Giving friends fantastic equipment so you can all work together to achieve a high end goal? Fighting a huge clan battle (back in my day we didn't even have a clan functionality btw), losing, still give them props, zone again to recover and fight another day and win...

Arctic is tough, unforgiving and incredibly rewarding. I think the Imms have done a really great job at tweaking some simple usability features in the last few years. Having bots is only going to benefit those few elitists and drive the rest of us away. If bots are ok, it's going to decrease one of Arctics cardinal qualities which is asking questions, getting help, making friends, teamwork, etc. I think I've died 10 or more times at level 20 trying to explore - all part of the game.

The few that can do it without being noticed? I really could care less but don't make it legal. I've been information security for over a decade as both attacker and defender. Having to use a proxy is a total pain in the ass unless you have multiple computers set up.

Have a check on IPs with alerts when people log in with the same IP - if you don't already have this should be a very simple code. Have it go to email. I would suggest not immediately deleting but contact said person - could be a house of people behind a nat which you would have to research a little bit while they play. Have a field for that exception "noted" so they don't get flagged again.

Love this mud especially with the new changes. For the first time in years I've been back on a regular basis. If you legalize bots there will be no social interaction, people will max and bot. I probably won't come back if that's legal. For me bots turn it into PVE. I play Arctic for the risk/reward.

I really don't think it is a question about how many bots. People who can/know how to bot can really easily bot multiples without noticing. You are a complete idiot if you think allowing 1 bot will restrict it at that. It would be even harder to spot than it is currently. Can you imagine a imm looking at it?

Imm: Hrm, I see these three people from the same IP. Is that one bot or two? Two people playing in a house with 1 bot? I think I'll spend the next hour checking this out. Another one logged on from the same IP, oh and another. Maybe this is two real characters and two bots? Maybe not? Let me open my excel spreadsheet to track all interactions that they are doing in the mud.

Seriously...

Z
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 09:32:16 AM by Zervun »

Gnua

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #109 on: July 27, 2013, 09:15:41 AM »
I think I would go longer into the wipe if multiplay (improved pets which take up group slots is my flavor of choice) were allowed. This would make it possible to zone as soon as I log on. From what I can see from the posts, the biggest downside to legalized botting is that when people get pkilled with no real hope of retaliation, they can no longer report them to the immortals for botting, and there is no hope of having the people who allegedly cause too much grief (I don't know how bad it was because I had already quit out of boredom) deleted/zapped/abyssed.

I haven't played with the new "who" rules, but if I understand correctly, an agressor won't be able to relo/summon someone not on their who list. I would think this change would cut down on the style of pk that does not require the hunter to find its victim.

Aemon

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Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2013, 09:24:17 AM »
If every single person could run with 9 bots, how shitty do you think ranking and the game would become?  (again, not flaming)...some zones would NEED tweaking to maintain balance. 

My point is if botting were legalized, not everyone will roll with 9 bots. You're going to have a lot of people run around with 1 or 2 bots. A few roll with 4-6 bots, and a handful running around with 9-10 bots. Not everyone can run 10 bots at a time due to limitations in education, skill, and scripting/coding capability. You are making a huge invalid assumption. There are also resource constraints, ie, finding enough unique ip's. At a certain point, you will incur real money costs. So any scenario where there are 20 players running around with 200 bots is naiive. To get to the point where you can actually run a full 10-man solo requires about a wipe of dedicated development and countless mass rips with no CR. Not to mention every clan tries to attack you as well. I speak from personal experience, this has happened to me. Rise, Wild, PoG, and VA all hunted me during my 1st generation bot development. This isn't meant as a slight, but someone with say a nursing background is going to have a difficult time fielding a full 10-man bot crew.

On another note, as I write this post on a Saturday morning, there are 12 visible people online.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 09:34:55 AM by Aemon »

Hoss

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2013, 09:35:50 AM »
A little light pruning occurred, please stay on topic.

Zervun

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Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2013, 09:37:05 AM »
If every single person could run with 9 bots, how shitty do you think ranking and the game would become?  (again, not flaming)...some zones would NEED tweaking to maintain balance. 

My point is if botting were legalized, not everyone will roll with 9 bots. You're going to have a lot of people run around with 1 or 2 bots. A few roll with 4-6 bots, and a handful running around with 9-10 bots. Not everyone can run 10 bots at a time due to limitations in education, skill, and scripting/coding capability. You are making a huge invalid assumption. There are also resource constraints, ie, finding enough unique ip's. At a certain point, you will incur real money costs. So any scenario where there are 20 players running around with 200 bots is naiive. To get to the point where you can actually run a full 10-man solo requires about a wipe of dedicated development and countless mass rips with no CR. Not to mention every clan tries to attack you as well. I speak from personal experience, this has happened to me. Rise, Wild, PoG, and VA all hunted me during my 1st generation bot development. This isn't meant as a slight, but someone with say a nursing background is going to have a difficult time fielding a full 10-man bot crew.

On another note, as I write this post on a Saturday morning, there are 12 visible people online.

I completely disagree. It is very basic to script multiple bots with tt++ or the like. What nursing background person would even be playing arctic in the first place?

My argument is that bots make Arctic's cardinal qualities moot. With bots it is not difficult, requires no social interaction and so forth.

From the people I have talked to, botting would make them less likely to play not more. You are probably in the minority.

The talk about how many players are on at x time is kind of silly. If bots were allowed and those 12 people had 8 bots total do you think it would be better if it showed 20 people online for the one new person that logs onto the mud in a six month bracket? Do you think if there was more people online with the knowledge of bots being legal that they would be more apt to play? If bots were allowed and we saw a increase of about 10 players on at once (which would probably be nearly unnoticeable) I would just look at that number and think "wow more bots on now that it is legal".

I don't know about you but in over 10 years, I encountered my first newbie about 2 months ago that I can remember. I helped him out as best as I could. Not sure if he stayed but I haven't seen him in the last month.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 09:45:06 AM by Zervun »

Aemon

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Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2013, 09:46:47 AM »
I completely disagree. It is very basic to script multiple bots with tt++ or the like. What nursing background person would even be playing arctic in the first place?

The person (snax) who I replied to has a nursing background if I'm not mistaken..
Arctic players surprisingly come from all walks of life. Not all are IT workers.

Sure, it's not difficult to script multiple bots with tt++. But have you ever tried 3 bots, let alone 9 bots at once? You'll soon find the limitations of tt++. And try running real zones like Ravenshadow, Mithas, or Blood Shoal with bots.

Unless people have actually tried, you're speaking in hypotheticals and theoretical instead of reality.

My point is, the staff should give it a wipe where botting is completely restriction free and players give it an honest try. There are 17 players online right now.

I know from my personal experience, my botting extended the play time for other members in SoB. These are players who otherwise would have just quitted because all their gear decayed and had no means of recovering it or because the original SoB leader quit for grad school. I also know that my bot crew allowed players who otherwise didn't have the time to level a char play rank 30 legend chars. Their involvement in Arctic would be zero. So I know that bots definitely extend not only the play time of players, but also extends the usable life of characters.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 09:52:02 AM by Aemon »

fulloflife

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #114 on: July 27, 2013, 09:48:43 AM »
yes, botting makes the game easier which is a benefit, not a cost! There is no influx of new players- only old players who don't have time to grind xp and spam zones.  You want to keep the game the same, sure, but I thought the goal was to try to get more people to play, not less.


Zervun

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Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2013, 09:54:51 AM »
I completely disagree. It is very basic to script multiple bots with tt++ or the like. What nursing background person would even be playing arctic in the first place?

The person (snax) who I replied to has a nursing background if I'm not mistaken..
Arctic players surprisingly come from all walks of life. Not all are IT workers.

Sure, it's not difficult to script multiple bots with tt++. But have you ever tried 3 bots, let alone 9 bots at once? You'll soon find the limitations of tt++. And try running real zones like Ravenshadow, Mithas, or Blood Shoal with bots.

Unless people have actually tried, you're speaking in hypotheticals and theoretical instead of reality.

My point is, the staff should give it a wipe where botting is completely restriction free and players give it an honest try. There are 17 players online right now.

I know from my personal experience, my botting extended the play time for other members in SoB. These are players who otherwise would have just quitted because all their gear decayed and had no means of recovering it or because the original SoB leader quit for grad school. I also know that my bot crew allowed players who otherwise didn't have the time to level a char play rank 30 legend chars. Their involvement in Arctic would be zero. So I know that bots definitely extend not only the play time of players, but also extends the usable life of characters.

Well you are right in that I've never tried to do more than 2 bots - which was on another mud way long ago that was bot friendly. I'm assuming that "most" that mud have a pretty good knowledge about anything command line. The cleric bot is key - all the others wouldn't be hard to autoattack with the proper classes.

I'm not sure why you are stating how many players are online. For all we know many could be bots. You also don't know how those numbers would fluctuate. Since there has not been very much bot policing who knows what those numbers mean. You seem to be a botter, and are online, so are there 13 real players? Who knows.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 09:59:39 AM by Zervun »

Aemon

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Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2013, 10:11:01 AM »
I'm assuming that "most" that mud have a pretty good knowledge about anything command line. The cleric bot is key - all the others wouldn't be hard to autoattack with the proper classes.

If I had a nickle for everytime I told a clannie to go to Start | Run | cmd, and they had no clue how to operate the command line, I'd be a rich person.

There are many people chiming in on this thread with invalid assumptions or people are envisioning things about botting while being based on invalid assumptions.

I've seen a number of testamonials on these forums from players who tried playing multiple chars concurrently and said it was very difficult. If it were easy, over the past two decades Arctic would have seen more than one 10-man bot crew than just me. PoG regularly fielded 10-man bot crews but to the best of my knowledge, they always had at least 2 players operating the group.

That's why I strongly encourage the staff to let there be 2 consecutive wipes of no-botting restrictions before any conclusions are drawn and everyone try to maintain an open-mind about it, even the players who threaten to sit-out Gandhi style like Vespin should just give it a try. You need one-wipe just to allow everyone to adapt and then another wipe to see how things really are.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 10:17:31 AM by Aemon »

Jozheg

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2013, 10:18:01 AM »
I've glimpsed through the thread just briefly, so I might just repeat someone's opinion that I overlooked.

Why do we all play this game? Why do we play games at all?
To be the best and to have the best. These goals are interwoven.
The Arctic environment has limited resources and allows competition. It's a bloody market! And there's no crime a person would not undertake in order to win the loot.
To remove the need to commit these crimes, you gotta remove the deficit of resources. Perhaps also remove the competition.

Remove the limits on eq.
Remove PK.

Whatsoever.

Ah. We still love disemboweling
Make an Arena to pkpk, or hold weekly weekend tournaments to fulfill the bloodlust.

Gnua

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Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2013, 10:25:54 AM »
From the people I have talked to, botting would make them less likely to play not more. You are probably in the minority.

1. the last poll had a majority vote for botting
2. only a handful of people who are for botting have not botted (I think only Corey and I have claimed this on the forums and dozens have admitted to botting).

Are people seriously saying they would quit just because a handful of 'honest' people started botting even though botting has been rampant already for years?

Rezin

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2013, 10:28:40 AM »
those of us that are anti botting, we aren't 'squaking' about how butthurt we are for being pked by sob, shit happens, and I wasn't killed by anyone all wipe until near the end, and then I only lost crap very easily replaced gear, because we have all come to expect the log fast mage bomb tactics, its all quite predictable and not the issue for some of us, what we are complaining about is the domino affect making botting legal is going to have, lets just say tomorrow botting has become legal and open and you can do it, can you honestly say these people who only gain enjoyment from the game by logging on for 2 minutes to try and take out anyone they can, they don't log to zone, explore, trade gear, chat, all they do is log on to try and pick people off, and now they can log there normal chars they like to pk with, along with their bashing or stabbing bot, letting people multi doesn't balance anything on this game, it just creates a new avenue of abuse for people who already try and abuse the game, if it was really such a small playerbase and you cant get any zoning done without having scripted bot characters, why is it everyone but the people who have been punished for botting, have somehow managed and thrived since they were punished without bots? by removing the botting element that has been on the game for the past few months people that were driven away by this crap have started coming back, making it 100% easier to get groups and zone, and as ive said before, are characters people can make and get legendary not stronger than they have ever been in arctics history?  people can solo and handle more now with just 1 character than they have ever been able to, and I honestly think the game has been balanced that way because of a declining playerbase, which was the proper solution to that problem, 95% of the zones around can be done with 4-6 people, there is no need whatsoever for 10 man bot armys for zoning   

and since when is someone scripting capability a measure that we judge a player by?  if people are so hindered by the population of the mud that they need to have 2nd and 3rd characters, why don't we just create some scripted bots you can hire in game, like neverwinter nights or something?