Author Topic: State of the Bot Address  (Read 58527 times)

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Aemon

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2013, 09:04:29 PM »
I think a lot of people fear the unknown or don't really understand how botting at a high level works.

For those of you in favor of anti-botting, I'd just like to point out there are 20 visible players on right now on a Friday evening. Maintaining the status quo means you think Arctic is healthy with less than 2 dozen players online.

Although I played 9 chars at once, there were players (operators) who would hop on a char or two from time to time to help out with challenging zone features (like Megladon in Blood Shoal). These are players who otherwise wouldn't be involved in Arctic due to real life time constraints.

So when my chars were stripped of eq, that meant not only me leaving the game, but 3 other players/operators as well who would otherwise not be involved with Arctic. 4 players leaving Arctic is more than 20% of Arctic's active playerbase now.

There were some people in my clan who really disliked zoning with bots initially. But once they tried out the bots themselves, you really adopt a more team mentality than an individualistic greed-whore mentality and they became converts while still recognizing their limitations.

Arctic has 20 active players online, I think all options should be considered seriously because this game is on a death spiral.



« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:10:34 PM by Aemon »

Anaya

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2013, 09:08:24 PM »
Well i thought about it and i would have to say i would play longer.  I have an off work schedule that doesnt let me play with most people.  Being able to play both tank and healer would allow me to do stuff if no one is on.  I would also have to say that is if i play.  Real life is more interesting than mudding to me these days.  Most of the people i grouped with in CORE have all moved on to real life and left the mud behind.  But if i just wanted to play a couple hours during the week here and there i wouldnt mind being able to play two chars.

Mike

Nostramazos

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2013, 09:44:01 PM »
@at Hoss,

I think if you don't address the pk status of the mud, you should not allow botting. I have said it before and I say it again, arctic mud has been and still is split unofficially in two types of groups. The one that plays the game as a metaphor for power and the one that plays it to have fun. The two groups don't see eye to eye but they are loyal to their way of playing.

I cannot begin to describe the problems of the first group. I will say this. The game for them is fun only when they win and they are predatory by nature because they want the text based eq. They also have the least threshold of patience and are most likely to rage quit. In trying to implement policies to satisfy that group, I am sorry, but you are fighting a losing battle. They will take the new botting system and they will exploit it to their hearts desire. So, in the first few weeks expect less real players. And if you think that "well not everyone is like that", let me inform you that the players on the driving seat of this group are like that. This is why so many fights and hate over eq.

The second group wants to have nothing with the first. It's ok for us not having the best gear, dying, falling in dts and our moods do not depend on whether we win or lose. For us arctic is a world to be explored still. Botting would help us but not when people have raised mages specifically to random pk and gather eq.

So again, unless you addressed the pk system, please don't enable them.

nostramazos

Chisul

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2013, 09:59:39 PM »
I would play longer into the mud. Much longer. This would breath new life into my game experience, especially as a pretty determined explorer. Having even one other char to help me test, zone, and learn (at my own pace) would be a huge win for me.

Plus I really love this thread. Most productive player feedback I have ever seen.

Matt

snax

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Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2013, 10:20:17 PM »
Dunno.  I do know that I'm extremely fond of the kracken creature zombie shark and blue dragon combination when I'm soloing which is pretty similar to botting.  It almost lets me do something other than sit in an inn trying to figure out if I really want to bother xping and running the same zones over and over waiting on obscure loads, low %loads, and grinding at skills.

so, if there was some implementation of the old pet shops with truly progressable pets (ala mages, and dk/paladins, and elemental rings style stuff), pets that are on par at the 40-70% level of a real player, that would be close enough for me with the whole thing of botting, and actually merit some fun.  so in that regards, if i could have say through questing or ranks or coin grinding maybe up to 4 pets (1 per 10 levels, bonus one at legend) that also had their own ranks and some spells gate style....

I could see for a brilliant implementation of botting that didn't really require multying or all that jazz.

so yeah probably, unless i'm bouncing around in the crazybin, I'ld probably play more.

some zone tweaking would be needed to make sure that some of the top tier zones still required real people, but in general, it would be nice to log on and go "okay i've put in my 500 hours of playtime, now it's time to go solo qualinesti" or such with some rentable bound and summonable bots...

dunno

btown

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #80 on: July 26, 2013, 10:42:36 PM »
Also tipsy I would like to say these massive char share botted POV is so bad.  They are arctic criminals

Aemon

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Re: Aristox's Question of would botting increase personal play time
« Reply #81 on: July 26, 2013, 10:55:24 PM »
some zone tweaking would be needed to make sure that some of the top tier zones still required real people
Arctic zones don't need any tweak. That's the natural knee-jerk reaction, but it's the wrong one. Arctic zones are plenty challenging as is. I cannot tell you how many unrecoverable mass rips I've had of 8+ chars at once during the initial development with my first bot crew of Monika, Domahnugnuts and as well this wipe with Aemon, Yhonk, and co.

I had a mass rip with no CR like a week before I got gear stripped at Argentine in Vingaard Keep. There are certain zone features or mob specs that you take for granted as a human player that pose unique challenges to bots.

Some mobs that are trivial to a group of human players, become a nightmare for an all-bot group, and you develop a newfound respect for them. I am actually terrified of a certain mob in Sanction that most groups would consider trivial.

I don't think creators should take bots into consideration when they do zones. The character level/power is unchanged whether it's botted or whether it is in human hands.

People have this perception or mental image that if you have 10 bots you can just steamroll everything and kill everything in sight. I assure you, that's not the reality. It takes dozens of mass rips before all your scripts/code are sorted out assuming you script all char classes. And that's only your client-side scripts, not to mention the time you gotta invest to tweak your server-side JSON/RPC/socket calls.

Before people start asking for changes to the game due to botting, I recommend you first try botting in order to see what it's really like. When you start mass ripping your initial bot crews, you'll find the difficulty of Arctic is more than adequate.

Bear in mind that if botting is allowed, exploration will also increase exponentially (which is a good thing because more people will gain zone knowledge.) In this process of exploration, there will be lots of deaths.

I would really hold off on any suggestions of tweaking the core gameplay because of botting unless you've actually tried running zones with 9 bots. Otherwise you're just talking out of your ass.

but in general, it would be nice to log on and go "okay i've put in my 500 hours of playtime, now it's time to go solo qualinesti" or such with some rentable bound and summonable bots...
It is nice and not nice...because then you become to caretaker of everyone's decays. I actually did have to spam quali for a number of clannie decays. But again, you're not factoring in, the 200+ hours of scripting and coding needed as well to get you to a point where you can actually do that.


« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:01:01 PM by Aemon »

Vespin

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #82 on: July 26, 2013, 11:12:14 PM »
I would not play if botting/multi were legal.  It changes the dynamic to rely on a skillset i do not give a crap about, and promotes steamrolling zones and pk with brute force as opposed to intelligent collaboration and individual decisions.  It would in short, be boring to me.

btown

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #83 on: July 26, 2013, 11:19:34 PM »
Nice quick speech I agree with.  botting is bad for this game.  split the game in 2 if you must.  I however do not support botting for arctic mud. it will not be ARCTIC MUD with legalized botting.  ok so you guys have been cheating this entire time,  that does not make it ok  OR BETTER.  botting sucks and makes this game suck.  making botting legal will cost you within a couple months or less lose 50% of the player base IMO  an estimate.  you should not have fed these botters this much now they feel as if they have some ground to stand on again IMO

If you guys want to change this game to a bot game you will end up playing by yourselves a lot sooner then you think.  there is better changes to be made then legalize botting

Aemon

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #84 on: July 26, 2013, 11:23:13 PM »
split the game in 2 if you must.

This was one suggestion I made earlier.
Just make a separate port, much like Arctic has a dev port.
Port 2701 for carebears.
Port 2700 for anything goes.

I don't think it's a good solution because it'll fragment the already thin playerbase, but it'd give folks a wipe to perfect their scripts and learn zones.

botting is bad for this game.

botting sucks and makes this game suck.
This is clearly the pinnacle of Socratic debate and reasoning.

If you guys want to change this game to a bot game you will end up playing by yourselves a lot sooner then you think. 

News alert, there are 19 mortals online at the time of this post. And that doesn't qualify as playing by yourself?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:30:16 PM by Aemon »

Rezin

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2013, 11:43:17 PM »
sorry getting the conversation kinda late, but gramm is right, can you really see a version of the future if botting is allowed where Loretta and those types aren't doing the exact same thing this wipe?

now that sob has left the mud the playerbase has increased, sorry its true, and not only has it increased, but it seems the people who are currently playing are somehow able to maintain a mature attitude towards killing each other and using scum tactics...the mud has been funner than it has all wipe, lets be real everyone playing has been playing for 15-20 years, can we really not hold ourselves accountable?

before Mumus deletion he was logging on and tethering a basher to try and jump anyone he could, lets say botting is allowed...do I even need to explain what would end up happening?

Rezin

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #86 on: July 26, 2013, 11:53:12 PM »
do I think people should be allowed a 2nd character, definitely not, does it not take away something from the individuals aspect of the game?  How do we feel when we look back and think of the badasses of yesterday, would it be the same if it wasn't just superthug kiff and it was kiff and his thief multi kaff?  How cool would kiaransalee be if not only his badass mage but his other badass mage poofed at the same time, maybe people would actually need a 2nd multi bot if characters weren't already as strong as they are, any given persons main character is stronger now than it ever has been and can handle more than they ever could.  And if you forget the past you are doomed to repeat it, just going on the actions and results of how people have played in the past, using botting or not...is our playerbase really mature enough to handle something like this without running a 10 man group controlled by 1 guy, he gets bored so he starts jumping every neutral clan who runs around?  Yeah its a pk mud and not a carebare mud, but how much fun is the mud if the only people playing are the guys who only want to go hard and kill anyone for popping his lucky bone charm, the neutral players and neutral clans that don't want to pk or be involved with it add a good deal to this game, like it or not

Rezin

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2013, 12:15:40 AM »
re aemon

you keep saying over and over that the botters being punished have decreased the amount of people playing...maybe you haven't been on in awhile, but more people play now then when your little bot armys were ruining everyones good time, you say your so kind to the neutral clans helping them in a zone, do you not remember refusing to peace maza/myth? asking for 500k in coins to get peace?

in this game knowledge is power, always been that way, always gonna be that way, well the problem is, some people currently have knowledge, some people don't, so when your solo botting all these super high lvl zones that u don't even need a 2nd human player for, how is the guy whose bottin his little army and doing the only zone he knows like dwarven keep supposed to compete?

if the mud is so hard now that we need to have extra characters to play, why don't we just keep botting illegal, double the amount of hps each character gets, sell heal potions in the magic shops, and make lucky bone charms nobash/limdam at least that will solve the confusion of which bot to direct the tells to

Boots

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2013, 12:28:39 AM »
Ok, I want to take back my view of positive for bots.

Somehow AEMON is under the impression anyone but him and his friend want character sharing to be legal, and he also is under the impression having 1 tagalong character is suddenly equivalent to botting a 10man army.

I am completely against any botting until people like Aemon are rightfully fixxed. If botting is allowed, he will be back to where he was less then a month ago, and this time we will have no recourse but to innsit like we pretty much did for 2 weeks straight.

Character sharing shouldnt be legal, and botting shouldn't be legal. I was in favor for 1 of your OWNED characters to be used, but this positivity is trying to be misdirected for favor of 10man bot armies.

And yea, Aemon needs a bot army for this carebear mud. I'll say it again, you have broke the game for yourself. You are like a junky, you can't get the normal fun from the game since you are use to steamrolling everything.

I grouped with you and your bot crew. remember what you told me?
"Three rules. 1) dont talk. 2) no charmies, and 3) don't slow down the group.

by the end of lunitari I could tell without a shadow of a doubt that you were using scripts.  Ithanked you for the group and left.

Did we have any interaction during that 10 minutes? None. 

i am against more then 1 character at a time.

Super Tacoman

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2013, 12:34:02 AM »
apparently the current state of the game is not clear to some of you.  people are already botting.  people are already leveling faster than you because of bots.  people are already using bots to get ranks and equipment faster than you.  people are already killing you with bots.  this is already happening and its not going away.

the whole idea of this thread is that people are going to bot.  its inevitable and unstoppable and it is likely to become more pervasive not less.  the question is should it be legalized so that the players who arent currently botting can have at least some of the same advantages?  and the overwhelming answer from the non-botting players is "no! please dont help us have the same power and options as the botters!  it will ruin the game!  we want to keep playing from a disadvantage!"

personally im fine with that if thats how you want it.  it wont much effect me as i plan to multi again next wipe either way.  i have little doubt many others will as well.  and you purists?  you can continue to play with the handicap you so urgently begged for.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:40:17 AM by Super Tacoman »