Author Topic: State of the Bot Address  (Read 60274 times)

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eddiex

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2013, 06:07:00 PM »
Botting/multiing is an issue because there is a significant portion of players who feel slighted by people who are violating the current set of rules while they abide.

If we are discussing how to make ARCTIC more fair and equitable than something needs to be done to bridge this gap.

If I play hardcore for 12-16 hours a day as i did this wipe (and especially with this wipes changed xp tables), leveling is exponentially slower than the person multiing/botting because they can guarantee themselves a consistent 2 man minimally for that 12-16 hours.  This advantage carries over to the rate at which you are able to hit the higher zones and in turn the untouched ranks.

By having a rule that says no multiing (even though we know people are still multiing) the only people reaping any benefits from this policy are those who are illegally multiing and botting.

Arguing that it just gives the cheaters what they want is flawed.  They already get what they want because there is no way to effectively police them as Hoss stated in his original post.  But for the rest of the rule abiding players of this game, we watch as 5 people or less are able to explore any zone they please, while we sit and try to organize 10 people who have different real life time constraints and attention spans.

btown

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2013, 06:17:31 PM »
I believe these guys are working hard and listening.  lets keep giving good feedback.  Wipe is coming up and I am sure we all appreciate the work these immortals do for this game.

It's payday so I paid arctic a little.  I am sure getting some money in the donation box will help motivate these lazy bastards :/)

Gnua

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2013, 06:28:04 PM »
Is it more of a "I need more characters, so I can go zone by myself", or is it "I want to multi"?

I see those as distinctly separate issues, the first we could solve with game changes, the second not so much. I also wanted to applaud those of you that have publicly admitted that you bot. We all know it happens and I really do think we won't make much progress until we can shed any pretence and have an honest conversation.

I will also lift the 'no flames' rule as long as it is focused at Willoe.

I think for me it's the first. I would prefer improved pets (that do not respond to the order all command) over multi/botting. Based on my experience playing a darknight with a pet and a charmed/gazed cleric, a shaman with spirits, and a mage with pet and charm person, playing two "characters" (without triggers) is fairly easy, three is challenging, and anything beyond that would require scripts/triggers.

Currently there are three limits on the number of characters people play
a. rules (which permit only one) - some people follow this, many do not
b. ability to manually control charcters (human mind seems to be able to effectively manage 2-3 characters) - some such as reed and daniel say they manually control their multies, others use triggers/scripts to get beyond this limitation
c. ability to script - managing large groups of bots appears to require significant scripting skills and few could manage 9 bots and many would probably have trouble scripting a single bot.

Given how few people follow the first restriction (and are therefore limited by the next two), I doubt that removing the first restriction will create an explosion of people running around with 3 or more bots. I would guess that people would manually control their main and one or two support characters (similar to a dk with a dragon and a gazed cleric mob) and stop there because of the effort required to keep triggers/scripts up to date with changes in game mechanics. I would personally like to limit multiplay at whatever someone could manually control without triggers. In game pets/mercenaries/charmies would also allow this.

Maybe try it and see. We're late in the wipe, many have quit from being zapped by accident, it probably wouldnt hurt to allow multiple characters to log from the same ip, it would require no coding effort on the part of the staff, if it doesnt work out (like lots unlimited eq) things can be reverted.

My wild guess to the results if botting were allowed: three people would quit in fury, four people would give multiing try, and the rest would not change because they were already botting. If multiing didnt stop reed from quitting, I would expect at least half the people who returned to try botting would leave for reasons similar to reed's.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 07:07:35 PM by gnua »

Gnua

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2013, 06:30:36 PM »
I believe these guys are working hard and listening.  lets keep giving good feedback.  Wipe is coming up and I am sure we all appreciate the work these immortals do for this game.

It's payday so I paid arctic a little.  I am sure getting some money in the donation box will help motivate these lazy bastards :/)

Maybe "voting" should be done with donations...

gulca

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2013, 07:04:46 PM »
Quote
c. ability to script - managing large groups of bots appears to require significant scripting skills and few could manage 9 bots and many would probably have trouble scripting a single bot.

This won't be a problem. I am willing to share what I have so we have a common starting point.

Like Aemon, scripting is part of the fun for me in Arctic. Unlike Aemon though, I've not used it for 10 bot group.

corey

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2013, 07:54:22 PM »
What's funny about the botting threads is no matter the end result, nothing is going to change.

We already saw this wipe what difference a "no botting" decision made.

Slunt

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2013, 08:02:22 PM »
Exactly Corey

Those who are okay with cheating will continue to do so. Those who aren't won't.

Meanwhile the staff will use the slippery slop argument against allowing multi play while the same issue currently exists with out it.


enochvey

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2013, 08:04:22 PM »
This is from the perspective of someone who has never botted on this game, but has really wanted to at times.

I haven't read through all the responses in the thread yet, but I like the allowing two chars from one IP idea. That would allow me to do a lot more solo exploring, which honestly is more fun to me a lot of the time than doing hard zones with big groups.

I really don't like the idea of bots in pk, but I see the issues related to botting and enforcement on arctic as similar to the ones associated with a government debating the idea of allowing to citizens to have some means of defending themelves vs attempting to remove any possible means of criminals harming law-abiding citizens.

Both approaches have inherant problems, but when there is massive historical precedent for the rule-following people to be placed at a disadvantage, and little that can be done to truely eliminate the means of harming those at the disadvatnage, I think the best answer is to allow the rule followers at least a little more room to fight back.

I know that allowing two chars from one IP doesnt stop the abusers from making 10-man or multiple 10-man bot pk swarms, but it does give at least one of my characters a better chance of recalling from or even fighting off smaller groups or players/bots.

As far as scripting goes etc.. I use a basic system of highlights and aliases for rescuing when I zone, and the ONLY thing that has EVER reliably beaten me on this game for rescue speed was mavlads rescue script the few times I zoned with him. Even then I still was able to prioritize my rescues better than the script, while operating just a sliver of a second slower than a computer program...

That having been said, it would not be hard for me to use a similar system to control multiple characters for most pve content and even some pvp, so I am not terribly worried about the disparity between those with really good scripting skills and those without when your only dealing with one extra character.

sart

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2013, 08:12:10 PM »
Here is what this thread has accomplished for me...

90% of you are cheating.  That makes it the norm for arcticmud...

Thus after 20 years on this time sink.. I will no longer consider it cheating.

I can only speak for myself.. and from now on I will be multi'ing with all new characters.


I will not multi with Narotras/Sartoran. ( altho.. it would be nice to have heals backing my thief always.. )
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 08:15:09 PM by sart »

Jorquin

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2013, 08:23:18 PM »
not sure why you'd announce that, prepare to be hossed at some stage.

Gnua

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2013, 08:34:37 PM »
Forum: gnua, btown, Jarrad, Brafu, enochvey, Oligo, sart and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
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btown

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2013, 08:43:29 PM »

Brafu

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2013, 08:55:10 PM »
This isn't about botting, this isn't about any rule. This is about how some players play the game and how their methods and mentality ruin it for anyone who isn't them or their friends.

Hoss, I don't envy your position, or that of the other imm's, but at the end of the day I don't think any amount of small tweaks and changes will do much of anything. Arctic's problem children will adapt and will continue to cause the same issues, and those of us who abide by the rules will continue to suffer. Again, I don't envy you because this isn't an easy problem to solve, and the fact that it's been an ongoing one for the better part of the past decade proves that.

I know you probably wanted more about the botting issue, but I think it's a moot point because all of the problems with it are caused by the people who cause problems in all aspects of the game, not just one. Those who bot, and don't cause problems, are not an issue because they don't make it a point to put their enjoyment ahead of everyone else's.

Yea, I'm a broken record, but at this point it's all I got. At the end of the day when it's all said and done, I'm probably done with this because I don't have the energy to spare on dealing with drama in a game. Perhaps that means I should just leave and get on with my gaming life, I don't know. But I do know that this game has been a part of my life for a long time and I would like to see it continue on and thrive.

The only real advice I can offer is to change the game so drastically that it's virtually impossible for them to continue to do what they do that harms the game, because when it's all said and done that's the only path you can take that will have any real impact.

Jarrad

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2013, 10:37:47 PM »
I first tried botting the wipe that legend first came in. Had a scout and cleric duo. Was quite easy and fun to play solo and in groups. I still stopped playing before the wipe was over without any char being deleted because half of the clan quit. Real life kept me out of arctic for the next couple wipes but I decided to give it another go this wipe. Again I played scout cleric combo and had fun until Hoss became suspicious of poor Rygaar and decided to have a chat in the abyss. I didn't bother with the whole count forwards and backwards from 2 windows at the same time game. Two chars went in and only one came out. This didn't stop me from playing although some clan members did quit over it. A few weeks later I made a paladin as a replacement but didn't bring it to clan zoning. This was not discovered, but I still lost interest in arctic and quit.

Why? Most of the clan had quit at this stage. Playing by yourself gets boring fast. If you are motivated to explore zones or keep maintaining your set it is useful to have a bot, but ultimately I have fun playing this game with friends. If they arent playing, I lose interest also.

It is pointless to continue to ban botting because it is more fun for the botter to keep remaking chars and play the game than it is for Hoss to spy groups and catch them out.

As Shesh quite rightly said, botting is completely beside the point. Arctic's strength is also its weakness. The game has historically revolved around getting the top tier gear to become truly powerful. So long as the nobashes and dragon orbs etc are limit one the only way to get them is via pk. The real problem now is that a rank 40 red robe tether bombing with a rank 40 basher and engaging instantly via spelltrap doesn't need gear to be lethal.

What I am trying to get at is that the focus is shifting from gear to ranks, legend characters are overpowered, and the increased proliferation of game knowledge all combine to decrease longevity of the game. It just gets boring after a few months. Will allowing botting fix it? Of course not, but it won't hurt either.

I logged on for a few mins the other night and surprisingly enough, even tho I was completely naked and just browsing the world merchant, I had a few chars try to kill me. This actually prompted me to stick around on the game for a few hours trying to hunt them.

The only idea that came to me regards pk is to have something like 6 hourly automated arena style pk events. The arena is open for 2 hours every 6 hours and while it is open pvp is deactivated outside the arena. Arena should be cash focused as in you pay 2k to participate and the winner takes all the cash with no eq loss. This at least provides 4 2 hour slots a day for any weaker clans that have been getting raped to zone freely and adds a new element to pvp. Should also include a function for honor duels 1v1 with full loot.

Oh yes, Pro Botting...

Gnua

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2013, 10:42:44 PM »
I believe the problem was misidentified.
In the public clamor of this wipe, botting/multing argument was primarily used as a convenient accusation against the harrassing clans and individuals. During my short play this wipe, I've only met 4 people who actually liked PvP, and a dozen of others who claimed they did, but lied to themselves. The age census, people got too old for this shit and want nothing but rest.
So - it's probably time to restrict pk - I don't want to be any part of it - botting issue is actually not relevant/important.

Perhaps there are two issues going on.
1. As Shesh says, people are losing their taste for pk, and so when they get ganked by bots, they complain about bots when it's really the pk they don't like. these people may even be ok with being solo players while others bot as long as they dont get pk'ed. These people ask to multi in hopes that they can fight back. I doubt multi will have the desired effect but pk restrictions (no relo gear, optionally appearing on who list) might help them.
2. The new XP tables have made soloing more painful, the declining playerbase has made soloing more necessary (maybe they got to join groups that had bots in it previously), and so people ask to multi so they can zone by themself. These people won't come back even if there is no-pk - but they appear to trying to fill the gap left by the top leader/botters leaving the mud.

I'm guessing people in the 2nd group quit a few weeks into the wipe out of boredom and were driven away not by enemy bots but by the lack of friendly bots. But the people in the 1st group continued to grind away without friendly bots until the enemy bots gave them too much grief.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:54:27 PM by gnua »